Post election prediction

[sapator]

I
It's highly unlikely that this wouldn't involve Greece being occupied first so be careful what you wish for. You're a lot closer to the problem than we are and you don't have a nice convenient Channel to get across. There's a reason we went uninvaded in two world wars while you didn't. I suggest you think REALLY hard about what you're fantasising here.

Can't you take a joke? For a preceding "joke" statement?
I wasn't the one trembling with Russia marching on.
Also to get to Greece they most probably travel thru Turkey. Our Turkish friends will never let that happen!
I'm thinking you have no idea how many people in Greece are hopping for Russia to occupy us and get rid of the NATO puppets here.
Also I don't know if you have any idea what is the strongest conventional army in Europe for NATO. If they will be occupying UK they would have no significant army to deal with but you could thread them with Nukes, see how well this will go.

OH US will leave NATO now hmm? OH sad news, sad news indeed. Even sadder if NATO breaks up. I'm very very sad....For you.

[FunkyDexter]

Can't you take a joke?

When you're talking about my country being invaded, no.

Regarding army sizes, Turkey, France, UK, Germany, Italy and Poland all have larger forces than you. If you're talking about expenditure you don't even make the top 10..

Greece is certainly a significant contributor to NATO but hardly the biggest.

[wqweto]

It must be clear by now that sapator and his kin will great his new russian overlords with flowers at the Bosphorus if possible. It a sad sight but age and communist ideology does not leave anyone unscathed.

[sapator]

Again, I wasn't the one started the Russia occupation to all Europe. A looser approach will be preferred to this but have it your way.
Army to size ratio is off the chart. We are very close to every country that you mention with 1/5 of the population. Everyone will have a really hard time invade a robust country. Also if we are talking about how easy anyone will be able to pass through Greece then, it's not that easy from what history shows.

Also why are you only looking to troops?
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ength-country/ -3rd (almost more than every other NATO country combined except US and Turkey)
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ength-country/ -5th
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ength-country/ -6th

We are clearly armed to the teeth for an occupational war.


I love your remarks wqweto . Tho am as communist as Russia is not our friend. Also Bosphorus is on Turkey side but, will cannon them flowers.

Greece will hopefully not be a contributor to NATO, as NATO will cease to exist soon.

[PlausiblyDamp]

Again, I wasn't the one started the Russia occupation to all Europe. A looser approach will be preferred to this but have it your way.
Army to size ratio is off the chart. We are very close to every country that you mention with 1/5 of the population. Everyone will have a really hard time invade a robust country. Also if we are talking about how easy anyone will be able to pass through Greece then, it's not that easy from what history shows.

Also why are you only looking to troops?
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ength-country/ -3rd (almost more than every other NATO country combined except US and Turkey)
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ength-country/ -5th
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ength-country/ -6th

We are clearly armed to the teeth for an occupational war.


I love your remarks wqweto . Tho am as communist as Russia is not our friend. Also Bosphorus is on Turkey side but, will cannon them flowers.

Greece will hopefully not be a contributor to NATO, as NATO will cease to exist soon.

So what do you have against NATO in particular? They have helped to maintain peace over many years, as well as various other non-military programmes.

[sapator]

For real?

OK for reference read the Ukraine war thread.

The more up to date question is what Trump administration has against NATO? Where the lie of maintaining peace will actually stick.

Edit.
Also I love how on my whole post that I do not make a single aggressive claim against NATO you sprout an out of the blue question.
I have the feeling that soon after a couple of loopholes I will be called racist.

[PlausiblyDamp]

For real?

OK for reference read the Ukraine war thread.

The more up to date question is what Trump administration has against NATO? Where the lie of maintaining peace will actually stick.

Edit.
Also I love how on my whole post that I do not make a single aggressive claim against NATO you sprout an out of the blue question.
I have the feeling that soon after a couple of loopholes I will be called racist.

Greece will hopefully not be a contributor to NATO, as NATO will cease to exist soon

That is what prompted my question, it was a genuine question. No idea why you suddenly got so defensive, claimed it was out of the blue, or decided you would end up being a racist.

If my question bothers you that much, feel free to not answer it.

[wes4dbt]

If my question bothers you that much, feel free to not answer it.

He didn't answer it. He just acted like he's being victimized because you asked a question.

[wes4dbt]

All this talk about army size and NATO is irrelevant, just use the Trump approach to dealing with an invading Russian army. Just give them what they want. If they want 25% of your country, give it to them. Other wise there will be people saying you don't want peace.

[sapator]

You asked what do I have against NATO and you quoted
"Greece will hopefully not be a contributor to NATO, as NATO will cease to exist soon"

Unless we have WOked the vocabulary that is a statement not an accusation.
Or do you think that NATO will exist if US leaves?

It might be called EURATO something else but not NATO.
Probably EURINAL (EUropean Inductive National Army (of) lemurs)

What's the poops problem again?

I told you,you, can read the Ukraine thread, we had pages and pages on the subject.

Is there a conclusive point on your question?

[sapator]

Also Asking EU to keep helping Ukraine to continue the war and bloodshed because Trump will not help and you don't want Trump to end the war without your "terms" is very mature.
Clap Clap (that was not directed to plu) .

I hope Ukraine accept the terms and end the war because it's really on a breaking point. Let's stop the bloodshed and ignore the voices that want the war to continue.

[wes4dbt]

I hope Ukraine accept the terms and end the war because it's really on a breaking point. Let's stop the bloodshed and ignore the voices that want the war to continue.

Do you know what the terms are? I don't, I haven't heard anything about the terms. Please share them if you know.

Or are the terms irrelevant?

[sapator]

Currently there were the minerals , I think that is where the solution buzzed around.
Zelly left so there would another set of terms , we just have to wait.
Also the separation of Ukraine for companies like black as a ROCK and the wheat are on the background. For good or for worse everyone is trying to grab a piece. It's more important what is going on on the background.
What are you thoughts? If you are seriously asking.

[wes4dbt]

Currently there were the minerals , I think that is where the solution buzzed around.
Zelly left so there would another set of terms , we just have to wait.
Also the separation of Ukraine for companies like black as a ROCK and the wheat are on the background. For good or for worse everyone is trying to grab a piece. It's more important what is going on on the background.
What are you thoughts? If you are seriously asking.

I was serious, I haven't heard what terms are being offered to Ukraine. It doesn't sound like you know either. People are just guessing.

[sapator]

Ye , well , usually my guesses are coming true after a while.
There is another guess that a deal has been stucked as we speak for the minerals. Also Russia is advancing at full speed right now, so they might try to get as much as possible?
I'm just reading the sings so I might be wrong on this .Will see in a couple of hours.

[Shaggy Hiker]

I don't think it matters for a different reason.

What the war in Ukraine is showing is that warfare itself is changing. The US is going to lose the next war it gets into against a significant opponent, at least to begin with. We take years to go from planning to procurement for any kind of new weapons system. In Ukraine, a system that is two months old is obsolete. Russia won't be invading anybody. They're fighting WW I style battles, at this point. Those can be quite costly, of course, but they're anything other than lightning fast.

Drones and drone countermeasures are evolving at a frenetic pace over there. Already it is hard to move without being seen, and once seen, targeted. Russia is resorting to what amounts to mass wave attacks, and have stalled out after taking horrible casualties. The war started with large moves in one direction then another. These days, a large move is a few hundred meters, and it appears to be getting worse. From what we are seeing, the day when fully autonomous killer drone swarms are flying over what counts as a battlefield will arrive before the end of this year.

This isn't just Ukraine, either. Drone swarms are helping the M23 group in DRC push the Congolese army out of city after city. Drones are cheap. Drone countermeasures are behind, for the time being. The day has probably arrived when 'air superiority' is stratified into high cover and low cover, the latter of which is unobtainable at any price, at the moment.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Aside from that, there's some question as to whether or not Russia can afford to win in Ukraine. They'd end up with a large, hostile, occupied territory that has had large swaths destroyed. Their economy is also being propped up by war spending. If they lose, it will cost them a bundle. If they win, it might cost them more.

[wes4dbt]

I don't think it matters for a different reason.

I can't figure out what this is in reference to.

Peace terms? Peace or no peace? How the war turns out?

I agree, the war has bogged down.

[Shaggy Hiker]

I was referring to the whole peace process. Trump wants to give Ukraine to Russia. I don't think he can. The war hasn't bogged down, it's just that the lines have become static. The pace of technological advance is extraordinary. I'm not so sure that if Ukraine didn't agree to surrender, it would make all that much difference what Trump agrees to with Putin.

I also think this will spill outwards in ways that we have yet to see. When a $7K drone can take out a tank, it's one thing if there is a clear front line. That's a one dimensional line with a certain thickness. If the front line goes away, why would the attack space be limited, and in what way? As a tool of asymmetric warfare, the drone opens up a frightening new frontier. It's hard to say this, but it's just a matter of time before we start seeing drone based terrorist attacks.

[yereverluvinuncleber]

Russia is NOT advancing at full speed.

[wes4dbt]

I'm not so sure that if Ukraine didn't agree to surrender, it would make all that much difference what Trump agrees to with Putin.

That does seem to be they key, what will Ukraine decide to do. Trump can't force a surrender and Russia doesn't seem capable of forcing them to surrender either. US withdrawing support makes it more difficult but not impossible.

[wes4dbt]

Russia is NOT advancing at full speed.

Are you sure? Maybe this is "full speed" for the Russian army.

[dilettante]

With meeker citizens finally emboldened to speak up, the lunatic fringe is realizing that sheep are escaping the corral. Even CNN is on the verge of abandoning the sinking ship of the Democrats.

CNN blasts Democrats for ignoring Trump’s cabinet

[sapator]

“Earlier today I received an important letter from President Zelensky of Ukraine,” Trump said. “The letter reads, ‘Ukraine is ready to come to the negotiating table as soon as possible to bring lasting peace closer.’”

[FunkyDexter]

Army to size ratio is off the chart

Yeah, try the "per capita" argument with Trump or Putin and see how far you get. Celebrating might making right is a dumbass thing to do when you're a small country with a pitiful GDP. When you're in that situation there's a very good solution: find allies.

Russia won't be invading anybody.

Not for the next few years, I agree. But if the sanctions come off they will rearm within 3 to 4 years and I doubt the prospect of failure would deter Putin from trying. War is domestic politics in Russia.

[sapator]

I don't get your first argument.
I showed that we are on top 5 on the categories, what is your argument? Celebrating? I really don't get what you are saying.
The last part it think I get, find allies. We have allies that never helped tho like in Cyprus and Imia. So yes we might need to find new allies like Israel.

[yereverluvinuncleber]

I see more and more US betrayal and treachery being portrayed in the news. Betrayal toward allies and their own people. Possibly, some three months before a revolution in the US? This does not seem to be an unreasonable assessment anymore. This rest of the world (excluding Russia/North Korea) seems to actually perceive this as a preferable option.

I did US constitutional law for two years. At that time I used to denigrate the US for its corrupt electoral system, appointed judges, the billionaire/corporate hierarchy, allowing weapons to be in the hands of the uneducated populace, all these traits of American 'democracy' . I was young, stupid and opinionated and others always brought me down to earth.

However, I see now, even more clearly that I was right and most of those that used to argue with me, now believe the same thing. Revolution is required, complete reform of the electoral system, removal of electoral influence by billionaires, wholly separate the judiciary, removing politically appointed judges, legally self-regulate the TV media to make it unbiased and balanced to any party, report news, not opinion. Most of all, educate the masses, make the US into a proper democracy.

Some of that could be done within one year, some ten years, some fifty but it all needs doing.

The US looks like the most corrupt and vile nation on earth at the moment all because the man that supposedly embodies the nation is corrupt to his core.

[FunkyDexter]

I don't get your first argument

It's not hard. You're saying you'll be ok because you're army is highly funded based on your population and GDP. I'm saying, that's irrelevant when your population and GDP are tiny in comparison to your potential aggressors. Putin or Trump will have precisely zero sympathy that you tried really, really hard. In any negotiation you will be steam rolled.

I showed that we are on top 5 on the categories

No you didn't, none of your links work.

[yereverluvinuncleber]

Are you sure? Maybe this is "full speed" for the Russian army.

Agreed, Russia is a spent military force and will remain as such for the next five years. In that time Ukraine MUST be incorporated into a new defence agreement, a new pact, Germany (I hope) Poland, Ukraine, Finland, Sweden, Romania (?) backed by the UK's nuclear arsenal. US will never be trusted and has lost its place as world leader.

US under Trump will shrink in influence and power as allies turn away, those in the East turning to China as a more steady and reliable hand. Canada in the EU? Nuclear weapons will proliferate, Ukraine will have their own in 2-5 years. Canada may ask for some European nukes.

[sapator]

Nah, it was corrupt before but when you say deep state you get a where's your proof.
So from my part Trump is doing what he said he would do, a few slips aside and that was known to US people and they voted for him. So 4 years. Opinions are welcome of course but they don't seem to do much.
Now a peace is close for Ukraine so that is a good thing. Or, again, bad for some warmongers.

[FunkyDexter]

some three months before a revolution in the US?

I personally think that's unlikely but I wouldn't dismiss the possibility. The MAGA crowd spent the last four years talking about Civil Wars and Cessations after all. I do think the protests are going to escalate, though, and could certainly lead to violent rioting.

Revolution is required, complete reform of the electoral system, removal of electoral influence by billionaires, wholly separate the judiciary, removing politically appointed judges, legally self-regulate the TV media to make it unbiased and balanced to any party, report news, not opinion. Most of all, educate the masses, make the US into a proper democracy.

I get where you're coming from but revolutions rarely lead to those things. They usually lead to even more brutal totalitarianism. I'm definitely with you on the need but I'm not sure I'm with you on the solution. Mind you, I don't think I've got a better solution to offer.

[sapator]

It's not hard. You're saying you'll be ok because you're army is highly funded based on your population and GDP. I'm saying, that's irrelevant when your population and GDP are tiny in comparison to your potential aggressors. Putin or Trump will have precisely zero sympathy that you tried really, really hard. In any negotiation you will be steam rolled.

No you didn't, none of your links work.

We are not been expected to be invaded by US , we are a small country as you say with a big heart and have proved this constantly. The links work fine for me but I can write them down if they don't work for you (?) 3rd in Tanks in all NATO, 5th in war ships in all NATO and 6th in aircrafts in all NATO. If you want to underestimate us that is your choice of course.

[FunkyDexter]

We are not been expected to be invaded by US

Ukraine hasn't been invaded by the US, that doesn't stop the US from being instrumental in deciding their future. And if you're thinking, "that's only true because they were invaded by Russia and that won't happen to us", ask a Canadian or a Mexican how that works out.

I hate to be the one to drop a reality bomb on you, but Greece is insignificant on the world stage. On your own you are irrelevant, barely an after thought. You can engage with that reality if you wish or you carry on living out your Nationalistic Cos-Play and learn the same economic lesson that Britain has had to learn over the last decade.

[sapator]

And yet, you are completely wrong.
Greece is on the crosspath of 3 continents for thousand of years wars been happening here for the crosspath, it's on the crosspath of pipelines (tho our sold out government will probably make Turkey the big dealer here) and world emporioum.
We have the largest commercial fleet in the world for product distribution and Piraeus hardboard is on the center of it.
We also have huge amount of oil that our sold out government will not drill and also be aware of 5-7 bases of US in Greece, why they are here if we are insignificant? Also the tons and tons of military equipment send to Ukraine and continue from our traitors.
We are not insignificant but you are right on that we are taken for granted . If our sold out government wouldn't be a US and EU puppy we will be talking with different terms.
It's nice to see how we are perceived tho , we might need to improve when a patriotic government (hopefully) take command and it's nice to see that the vast majority that went on the protest agree that we must be unite against traitors.

Edit. I will pause as the forum is completely unresponsive and I have work.

[FunkyDexter]

And yet, you are completely wrong.
Greece is on the crosspath of 3 continents for thousand of years wars been happening here for the crosspath, it's on the crosspath of pipelines (tho our sold out government will probably make Turkey the big dealer here) and world emporioum.
We have the largest commercial fleet in the world for product distribution and Piraeus hardboard is on the center of it.
We also have huge amount of oil that our sold out government will not drill and also be aware of 5-7 bases of US in Greece, why they are here if we are insignificant? Also the tons and tons of military equipment send to Ukraine and continue from our traitors.
We are not insignificant but you are right on that we are taken for granted . If our sold out government wouldn't be a US and EU puppy we will be talking with different terms.
It's nice to see how we are perceived tho , we might need to improve when a patriotic government (hopefully) take command and it's nice to see that the vast majority that went on the protest agree that we must be unite against traitors.

And yet for most of modern history you did not exist as an independent nation.

You do indeed have a big heart. That heart will not save.

[sapator]

After 5000 years we needed a pause
But USA was in 1776 and we where in 1821 so.
For all the above reasons and IF we have a patriotic government we will prosper. If not then you would be right on some. But military we are currently OK as long as US or Russia not invade.

[PlausiblyDamp]

Agreed, Russia is a spent military force and will remain as such for the next five years. In that time Ukraine MUST be incorporated into a new defence agreement, a new pact, Germany (I hope) Poland, Ukraine, Finland, Sweden, Romania (?) backed by the UK's nuclear arsenal. US will never be trusted and has lost its place as world leader.

US under Trump will shrink in influence and power as allies turn away, those in the East turning to China as a more steady and reliable hand. Canada in the EU? Nuclear weapons will proliferate, Ukraine will have their own in 2-5 years. Canada may ask for some European nukes.

Ukraine used to have nuclear weapons, it fact it had the 3rd most in the world but agreed to give them up in return for protection by UK, USA, and Russia (look up the Budapest Memorandum). So since then Russia has violated the agreement, and USA has walked away from it by removing support...

[FunkyDexter]

In that time Ukraine MUST be incorporated into a new defence agreement, a new pact, Germany (I hope) Poland, Ukraine, Finland, Sweden, Romania (?) backed by the UK's nuclear arsenal. US will never be trusted and has lost its place as world leader.

You missed out France. They're a nuclear power and, thanks to their slightly antagonistic relationship with early NATO, theirs has no dependency on the US.

I think Turkey would be in their too. I don't think they're particularly chummy with Ukraine (though no particular animosity either) but they frickin' HATE Russia.

And Canada, and Australia, And New Zealand... in fact I think you'd get pretty much all of the former NATO countries. It'd be kinda like when a band reforms under a different name... just with the unpopular singer who formed the original.

[yereverluvinuncleber]

France' weapons are generally not available...

[Shaggy Hiker]

After 5000 years we needed a pause
But USA was in 1776 and we where in 1821 so.
For all the above reasons and IF we have a patriotic government we will prosper. If not then you would be right on some. But military we are currently OK as long as US or Russia not invade.

You ought to be mighty nervous, in that case. If you look at how Trump sees the world diplomatically, you'd be the obvious target for invasion. He talked about the great beach resort that he could build in North Korea, then the great beach resort he could build in Gaza. Greece? Well, you shouldn't be resting comfortably. You have a better location than either North Korea or Gaza.