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Oct 9th, 2024, 01:47 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Member
please explain the electoral process in the USA because I don't get it.
why are there only 2 candidates for the president?(camela and trump).
it seems not so democratic.
how is it only these 2 are presented as the exclusive either or options?
why do people even vote in such conditions?
it's like playing rock paper scissors against a couple of collaborators.
down that coffee slug
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Oct 9th, 2024, 01:58 PM
#2
Re: please explain the electoral process in the USA because I don't get it.
Originally Posted by NTShpikho
why are there only 2 candidates for the president?(camela and trump).
it seems not so democratic.
how is it only these 2 are presented as the exclusive either or options?
Technically there are more than 2 candidates. In reality, other candidates are not viable and don't receive nearly as much attention. This is mainly a result of a winner take all system and how expensive it is to run.
Originally Posted by NTShpikho
why do people even vote in such conditions?
The alternative is not voting, which might be right for some people in some situations.
Originally Posted by NTShpikho
it's like playing rock paper scissors against a couple of collaborators.
The system the US has favors a two-party system. I prefer the idea of ranked choice voting, but it isn't a silver bullet either. Every system of voting is flawed in some way, the only way it changes is when a strong minority (or more) of the constituents stop believing it. As a constituent who would like it changed, I can tell you that it does feel like screaming into a void.
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Oct 9th, 2024, 02:05 PM
#3
Thread Starter
Member
Re: please explain the electoral process in the USA because I don't get it.
it sounds like its mainly the result of corporate media choosing who ppl are allowed to hear about and thus vote for.
I couldn't even find the list of other candidates and their agendas.
you say winner takes all, but voting is emotional more so than logical to many people, I assume. shouldn't they at least have the ability to be aware of their options?
if you only have two options, than voting is like choosing the logo on one's prisoner outfit, signifying subjugation, which again makes one wonder why even vote?
down that coffee slug
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Oct 9th, 2024, 03:06 PM
#4
Re: please explain the electoral process in the USA because I don't get it.
Originally Posted by NTShpikho
it sounds like its mainly the result of corporate media choosing who ppl are allowed to hear about and thus vote for.
The corporate media will highlight candidates that suit their interests. Sometimes this includes candidates of other parties, sometimes it doesn't. This is an election cycle that they haven't for the most part.
Originally Posted by NTShpikho
I couldn't even find the list of other candidates and their agendas.
* Robert F. Kennedy Jr: https://www.mahanow.org
Jill Stein: https://www.jillstein2024.com
Chase Oliver: https://votechaseoliver.com
Cornel West: https://www.cornelwest2024.com
* - RFK Jr. stopped campaigning and endorsed Trump. He's stopped attempting to be put on the ballot in some states, remained on other states, and is suing to be taken off the ballot on others. So I guess technically he's a candidate, but not really if that makes sense.
Originally Posted by NTShpikho
you say winner takes all, but voting is emotional more so than logical to many people, I assume. shouldn't they at least have the ability to be aware of their options?
People do have the ability to be aware of their options. There is no law against them doing their own research. It takes work to research the various candidates and it's easy for voters to vote solely based on party. That's not a knock on people who only vote down the party line, it's just an explanation.
Originally Posted by NTShpikho
if you only have two options, than voting is like choosing the logo on one's prisoner outfit, signifying subjugation, which again makes one wonder why even vote?
The crux here is that you do not only have two options, there are others. The impact you have on voting outside of the two major candidates differs where you live. I'm personally not voting for either major candidate, but I live in Louisiana where the state will go overwhelmingly to Donald Trump. My vote will not affect the outcome whether I vote or abstain. People who live in the so called "swing states" have a much greater impact, not voting or voting 3rd party could help one of the major party candidates over the other (I think the biggest impact we saw was in 2016).
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Oct 10th, 2024, 03:33 AM
#5
Re: please explain the electoral process in the USA because I don't get it.
Originally Posted by NTShpikho
it sounds like its mainly the result of corporate media choosing who ppl are allowed to hear about and thus vote for.
I couldn't even find the list of other candidates and their agendas.
you say winner takes all, but voting is emotional more so than logical to many people, I assume. shouldn't they at least have the ability to be aware of their options?
if you only have two options, than voting is like choosing the logo on one's prisoner outfit, signifying subjugation, which again makes one wonder why even vote?
Sometimes I end up voting against the other guy versus for the one I cast my vote for. The lessor of two evils. This election especially.
Please remember next time...elections matter!
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Oct 10th, 2024, 04:43 AM
#6
Re: please explain the electoral process in the USA because I don't get it.
I think specifically for the US, this quote by W. Churchill applies
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."
Quote 91: https://parade.com/1034871/marynlile...rchill-quotes/
if you remember, the US started out as a "small" country on July 4th, 1776 (citizen-wise, acc. to different sites ~2.5-2.7 million citizens)
so there wasn't actually a big "pool" of candidates even back then.
Adding to that, that the "election system" is part of the US-Constitution (Article II - Electoral College)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articl...s_Constitution
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...ntial_election
Meaning: Historically, the US-Citizens are USED to only having so few candidates.
And now back to the Quote by W. Churchill:
Since alle Media-Outlets in the US are privately owned, the owners of those outlets are very powerful, WHO they want to "let" win the election.
So this begs the question: Is the US actually a democracy (it is on paper), or is it actually an oligarchy of powerful people, who install their puppet to be president?
And as long as the average voter in the US doesn't care to research, but just "consumes" whatever the media set in front of him, they allow "others" to do the thinking for them....
Last edited by Zvoni; Tomorrow at 31:69 PM.
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Oct 10th, 2024, 07:49 AM
#7
Re: please explain the electoral process in the USA because I don't get it.
I think specifically for the US, this quote by W. Churchill applies
It's an excellent quote. I'm sure I've seen it somewhere before
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill
Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd
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Oct 10th, 2024, 08:14 AM
#8
Re: please explain the electoral process in the USA because I don't get it.
Originally Posted by Zvoni
So this begs the question: Is the US actually a democracy (it is on paper), or is it actually an oligarchy of powerful people, who install their puppet to be president?
It isn't a democracy nor was it ever intended to be from start. It has always been a democratic republic: we vote for representatives who vote on things.
Even voting for the presidency isn't democratic, we cast our votes to say who we would prefer but ultimately it is the electors who cast the vote. 9 times out 10 the elector will honor the outcome, but there have been "faithless electors" who don't. In 2016, 5 democratic electors did not vote for Clinton and 2 republican electors did not vote for Trump, despite both winning the respective states where the electors defected.
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Oct 10th, 2024, 08:25 AM
#9
Re: please explain the electoral process in the USA because I don't get it.
Zvoni brings up a good point. The US started out as a small collection of fractious, suspicious states. Some states were relatively large and populous, others were tiny, but all of them identified more as a state than as a nation. To get this quarrelsome group to all get behind a single constitution took quite a bit of compromise and wrangling. For example, Delaware threatened to go off and join some continental country unless there were some protections against the larger states simply outvoting them. For that reason, we have the senate, where there are two votes per state, regardless of population. Idaho has the same power in the senate as California, despite the latter having multiple single cities with several times the population of the entire state of Idaho.
The electoral college is also somewhat like that. It amplifies unpopulated states well above what their population would otherwise deserve. One of the results of that is what DDay was talking about. If you vote in a state that is solidly red or blue, then the outcome is pretty much certain. You aren't one voter out of three hundred million, you are one voter out of the population of your state, which will result in a number of delegates ALL of whom (with the exception of two states) are going to vote for whichever candidate the state preferred. You can have 100 million votes for candidate A and 101 million votes for candidate B, and ALL of the delegates will be for B. This both amplifies the clout of small states (who have disproportionately large numbers of delegates relative to their populations) and degrades the meaning of your vote if you don't support a candidate who has a chance at winning the state.
When it comes to the parties, it would be entirely possible for a third party to get a significant percentage of the population. It has happened a few times in the past, most recently with Ross Perot back in the 90s, but most noticeably with the Republican party back in the election of 1860, which touched off the Civil War. Still, what generally ends up happening is that a third party is "somewhat like" one of the two major parties. If that third party finds a message that gains it a lot of support, then one of the two major parties adjusts their position such that they appeal more to that segment of the population, which erodes support for the third party.
The rest comes down to a couple factors. One is that a whole lot of people don't feel strongly in favor of one side, but feel strongly opposed to the other. Sure, there might be a third party candidate they support more, but voting for them will dilute the vote for one of the mainstream candidates and help the other candidate win. If you really dislike candidate A, then even if you prefer candidate C, you might vote for candidate B just because C can't win, but B might.
The other factor is that no party has a majority in the US. In the 2020 election, in which more people voted than in any previous US election, there were more eligible voters who did not vote than who voted for either Trump or Biden. In fact, there were darn near as many eligible voters who did not vote than who voted for Trump and Biden combined. So, the vote in the US is really, A or B or maybe somebody else or whatever.
My usual boring signature: Nothing
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Oct 10th, 2024, 09:26 AM
#10
Re: please explain the electoral process in the USA because I don't get it.
Originally Posted by FunkyDexter
It's an excellent quote. I'm sure I've seen it somewhere before
Actually it is a famous quote he never said...
https://winstonchurchill.org/publica...ll-never-said/.
Please remember next time...elections matter!
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Oct 10th, 2024, 12:56 PM
#11
Re: please explain the electoral process in the USA because I don't get it.
In fact, there were darn near as many eligible voters who did not vote than who voted for Trump and Biden combined
That's a bit of a stretch.
About two-thirds (66%) of the voting-eligible population turned out for the 2020 presidential election – the highest rate for any national election since 1900.
I'm curious what the turnout will be this time. I'm guessing just a little lower.
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Oct 10th, 2024, 01:28 PM
#12
Re: please explain the electoral process in the USA because I don't get it.
Originally Posted by wes4dbt
I'm curious what the turnout will be this time. I'm guessing just a little lower.
Historically speaking the overall number increases every election cycle, but the voter turnout as a percentage of eligible voters has hovered around 58% since 1980 and closer to 62% in the past 20 years.
That being said, last election cycle the voter turnout percentage was ~67% so I'd wager a guess that while the overall turnout increases, the percentage drops back down closer to the average over the past 20 years.
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Oct 10th, 2024, 02:16 PM
#13
Re: please explain the electoral process in the USA because I don't get it.
Originally Posted by wes4dbt
That's a bit of a stretch.
It depends on how you count. The percent that voted was almost 66%, but if you add up the votes for each, you end up with a bit less than 156 million. With around 330 million people in the country, that wouldn't be half. Of course, there are two groups in that 330 million who are both significant in number and ineligible to vote, those less than 18 and those who are not citizens. So, it comes down to how you count eligible voters.
My usual boring signature: Nothing
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Oct 10th, 2024, 02:33 PM
#14
Re: please explain the electoral process in the USA because I don't get it.
So, it comes down to how you count eligible voters.
Eligible voters are those who are eligible to vote. lol
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Oct 10th, 2024, 04:32 PM
#15
Re: please explain the electoral process in the USA because I don't get it.
Yeah, but the easiest way to count that is registered voters, which is not the same thing as those who are eligible to vote. So, what is counted to get that percent participation?
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Oct 10th, 2024, 09:46 PM
#16
Re: please explain the electoral process in the USA because I don't get it.
If you just count the registered voter then the percentage would be much higher. 158+ million out of 168+ million registered voters. That would be an even bigger stretch.
That's a pretty impressive percentage.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...-united-states
https://www.cookpolitical.com/vote-t...ctoral-college
Last edited by wes4dbt; Oct 10th, 2024 at 09:52 PM.
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Oct 11th, 2024, 02:43 AM
#17
Re: please explain the electoral process in the USA because I don't get it.
For comparison, i'll try to explain the german election system.
1) Head of State = "Bundespräsident" (literally translated = Federal President)
2) Head of Government = "Bundeskanzler" (=Federal Chancellor)
3) Government = "Bundestag" (Federal Congress)
The german Chancellor is the counterpart to the US-President (!!).
The President mainly "represents" Germany
The german President has no ruling power, except a right to veto a "proposed" Law.
Any Law passed through the Bundestag has to be signed/ratified by the President.
Election System (figures mentioned are just plain samples):
each voter has 2 votes (!!).
a) 1 Vote to vote for one of the registered political parties. --> Each Party needs at least 5% of total votes to be eligible to enter "Bundestag".
If they are below 5%..... --"Thanks for the votes and the fish, and have a nice day. See you again in 4 years". --> 0 seats
People/Members representing a party have something of a "priority" order.
Meaning e.g.: Frank Muller is a Member of Party CDU, but on Position 129. The Party reaches 38% on the Election, which gives them 87 Seats.
So Frank Muller will not enter Bundestag via Party
b) 1 Vote to directly vote for the representative of their socalled "voting-county" the voter is registered in. --> Here they can vote for independant/non-party-affiliated people.
The one with most votes wins the "county" and enters Bundestag
Meaning e.g.: Frank Muller (from above) WON his voting county, and enters Bundestag --> his Party now has 88 seats
c) In case Frank Muller were on Position 65 in his Party in above scenario, he would "internally" be removed from the Party list, since he won his voting county directly, shifting all following positions forward
The same is true for the opposite:
You DON'T win your voting county directly, but you enter Bundestag via Party, since you had a high enough position.
IIRC, it happened to Angela Merkel (former Chancellor) once
The Chancellor itself is voted by the THEN congegrated "Bundestag", which means its the top candidate of the party with most seats (!!)
NotaBene: This is all from the top of my head.
Haven't researched it
Last edited by Zvoni; Tomorrow at 31:69 PM.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One System to rule them all, One Code to find them,
One IDE to bring them all, and to the Framework bind them,
in the Land of Redmond, where the Windows lie
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
People call me crazy because i'm jumping out of perfectly fine airplanes.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Code is like a joke: If you have to explain it, it's bad
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