UK Riots

[sapator]

The Muslims immigrants here are probably 1 mil+ and they are mostly illegal .
Albanians came to Greece 30 years ago not today and they are not all Muslims there are a lot Christians. They did not jump ship or crossed illegally the borders like what is happening now. Also south Albanians are considered "cousins" of Greek since there have been in the region for millenniums.Also their culture is somewhat similar to Greek so they can be accumulated.
It's an entirely different thing than illegal Muslims immigrants coming the latest years to Greece from Africa or Asia, so the comparison is false as the customs of the immigrants from those areas are completely different.
Also who said that Greece does not have an issue? The illegal immigrants are coming to 10-15% but cannot be counted officially as they do not have valid papers. Also our Prime traitor has signed an agreement with Germany so with a pay, they can return from there country to our country immigrants.
Bottom line I'm aware of what is happening here and do not approve but that has nothing to do with UK. Probably we won't be here in the 50 year bar to see what will happen but if people ignore the fact that there is a force of Muslims in Europe as an extend to wipe out Christianity (don't take that as the crazy lady in the street way, it's a documented war plan on how someone can win the other without starting a war. Or take it as the crazy lady, it would be fun) and I'm not talking about the peaceful ones, then that is fine. Also that may not happen and I'm mislead so that is also fine, the forum will not save or condemned Europe, voters will and 10-20 votes here don't mean squat either way they vote.

[FunkyDexter]

So it seems the UK is dwarfed in comparison to Greece

100% true, not that you'd know that from listening to our Torie (and now reform) politicians. Basically, in Europe, Greece, Spain and Italy are closest to the Middle East and Africa which is the route that refugees are typically travelling from. It's sort of analogous to Texas neighbouring Mexico in the States though our bodies of water are MUCH bugger and more dangerous than yours.

Once a refugee reaches Europe they nominally have free movement within the Schengen area and can lodge a claim for asylum within any country but, all other factors being equal, will lodge one as soon as they can. So that means that a much larger number will stop in Greece, Italy and Spain. If they want to come to the UK it means they've still got travel another whole continent and, because the UK isn't in Schengen, undertake another clandestine water crossing across one of the busiest and most dangerous stretches in the world. We have a major pull factor due to English being so common as a language and our imperial history meaning many of these refugees have familial ties to the UK but it really isn't significant enough to match the extra risks over just stopping in Greece and lodging a claim there.

[sapator]

Question.
Was Schengen active in UK when they where in EU ?

Also the illegal immigrants are not refugees by no mean , they are not passing from their country that has war , that unfortunately for many, bird sung a long time ago and cannot be claimed. Also the bird of woman depression also sung a lot time ago as most of what passed are male 20-30, at least in Greece. So it's clearly an invasion and another factor for that is they are not passing to same religion countries, Just Europe. So even if we are in favor of immigrants we can no long support philanthropist issues as there aren't any, with a very few exceptions (Greece center has become Bangladesh an you cannot walk at night, especially women).
So lodging, not really, more like preparing. Especially in Greece and our prime traitor giving every weapon we posses to "help" Ukraine , if Turkey calls a war and alert the "backward" of immigrants to rebel, well, I would probably not be writing here as Allah forbids.

[FunkyDexter]

Was Schengen active in UK when they where in EU ?

No. We stayed out of the treaty.

they are not passing from their country that has war

That is not a prerequisite of being a refugee.

it's clearly an invasion

Nope

[sapator]

Oh maybe --- is blocking the message? It sais is 4 chars long???

No. We stayed out of the treaty.
-- OK

That is not a prerequisite of being a refugee.
-- What is the definition then?

Nope
-- Yep. How would you know? Have you ever visited Gre...Oh wait.

[sapator]

If I just try to post the quoted message it says is 4 characters long. A truly lovable bug!

[dday9]

There are plenty. I believe if you try to include just an XML tag then it will not post. E.g. go to the test forum and try to post only the following:
<invalid-tag>
-or-
<invalid-tag />

However, if you include the start and ending tag, the it's fine:
<invalid-tag></invalid-tag>

[sapator]

Now that you mention it I think there was a conversation about it but must have been years. It rings a bell tho.

[Shaggy Hiker]

though our bodies of water are MUCH bugger and more dangerous than yours.

Don't tell Trump that.

[TysonLPrice]

I didn't realize, from a recent post, that some Muslims are more acceptable then others. As long as they are "like us" it isn't like they are overwhelming a country. And it happened so many years ago it isn't relevant to recent history. OK..I see.

These same arguments are happening now across the globe. As the climate changes, population changes are going to be more of an issue.

[dday9]

As the climate changes, population changes are going to be more of an issue.

I do not want to put words in your mouth and you did not say this, but the framing of what you said seems to suggest that the driver of migration is from changes in climate rather than political crises across several nations that are mostly due to the imperialistic ambitions of the west and the US in particular.

I would contend that the latter is a much larger culprit than the former. I am not arguing that changes in climate never result in migration from areas that have been affected (or effected, I never know) the most, rather that interventionism has resulted in an outsized role when it comes to the migrations.

Take for example the situation you described where Albanians are migrating to Greece: the US quickly realized the new government after the fall of communism and provided direct financial aid to the country. On its face that isn't bad in and of itself, but considering how corrupt the new government was and the financial interests in play, there was ultimately an economic crash in the late 90s which resulted in mass civil unrest spurred on by Operation Alba. As a result, the EU and the US applied pressure to a compromise more favorable to their interests. This has been exacerbated by conditions by which Albania is allowed to join the EU. Simply put, financial interested of the west have contributed significantly more to Albania's current state where the population is bad off and feels at risk of political persecution which ultimately results in higher emigration.

I have seen no evidence that changes in climate that account for Greece's influx of Albanians in particular, though I'd be happy to read otherwise. I would say the same is true for other populations immigrating to other countries more often than not if we zoomed outside of Greece.

Edit - I should clarify that I am not suggesting that all of Albania's woes are a direct result of the west's involvement. Rather, pointing out that the situation has been made worse off because of the involvement. Had the west taken a hands off approach there would likely still be serious emigration issues in Albania, I'm suggesting that it is probably worse off, but its a point that cannot be proved because nobody can prove a counter factual.

[wes4dbt]

I do not want to put words in your mouth and you did not say this, but the framing of what you said seems to suggest that the driver of migration is from changes in climate rather than political crises across several nations that are mostly due to the imperialistic ambitions of the west and the US in particular.

I don't want to put words in Ty's mouth either but my take was climate change will add to migration in the future. Not that it's the cause of current migrations. What you quoted isn't talking about now.

the financial interests in play

financial interested of the west have contributed significantly more to Albania's current state

What financial interest are you referring to??

You think Albanians would be better off if we hadn't sent financial aid?

I'm not arguing against what you claim, I'm just looking for some clarification.

[TysonLPrice]

I do not want to put words in your mouth and you did not say this, but the framing of what you said seems to suggest that the driver of migration is from changes in climate rather than political crises across several nations that are mostly due to the imperialistic ambitions of the west and the US in particular.

I would contend that the latter is a much larger culprit than the former. I am not arguing that changes in climate never result in migration from areas that have been affected (or effected, I never know) the most, rather that interventionism has resulted in an outsized role when it comes to the migrations.

Take for example the situation you described where Albanians are migrating to Greece: the US quickly realized the new government after the fall of communism and provided direct financial aid to the country. On its face that isn't bad in and of itself, but considering how corrupt the new government was and the financial interests in play, there was ultimately an economic crash in the late 90s which resulted in mass civil unrest spurred on by Operation Alba. As a result, the EU and the US applied pressure to a compromise more favorable to their interests. This has been exacerbated by conditions by which Albania is allowed to join the EU. Simply put, financial interested of the west have contributed significantly more to Albania's current state where the population is bad off and feels at risk of political persecution which ultimately results in higher emigration.

I have seen no evidence that changes in climate that account for Greece's influx of Albanians in particular, though I'd be happy to read otherwise. I would say the same is true for other populations immigrating to other countries more often than not if we zoomed outside of Greece.

Edit - I should clarify that I am not suggesting that all of Albania's woes are a direct result of the west's involvement. Rather, pointing out that the situation has been made worse off because of the involvement. Had the west taken a hands off approach there would likely still be serious emigration issues in Albania, I'm suggesting that it is probably worse off, but its a point that cannot be proved because nobody can prove a counter factual.

I see your point and I did jump from a single point, to a global issue, without notice. But, climate change will be dictating global population spread in the next few decades. You can count on international conflict.

In a hundred years there will be even less land to fight over

[Shaggy Hiker]

I agree that climate change will eventually drive migration. Once the wet bulb temperature gets somewhere up in the 90s, humans won't be able to survive without air conditioning (which gets the wet bulb temperature down locally, of course). There are parts of the world that get there already, but there will be more. At that point, it's air condition, migrate, or die.

We aren't there yet, though. I expect to live long enough to see it...from the comfort of my air conditioning after I have migrated north...so it isn't that far off.

[dday9]

I see your point and I did jump from a single point, to a global issue, without notice.

Ah, I see. I was like, wait a second...

What financial interest are you referring to??

...

I'm not arguing against what you claim, I'm just looking for some clarification.

I make a claim and you demand evidence? How dare you?!

I'm only joking. I cannot provide you with any hard evidence without really digging into it, which I don't really want to do. I was just rattling off some of the points I've heard from Scott Horton from memory (admittedly, it's been a while since he's discussed Albania too).

However, it isn't a huge leap in my mind to think that there are several people or groups of people in the US who made money off post-communist Albania and there were financial incentives in place for those people/groups to lobby the US government to keep the money rolling. That and with the outsized influence of the US it just makes the order of magnitude that much larger.

So I don't have any evidence to give you, nor do I really plan to dig into very deeply, but I do think it'd be naive to think that the west wasn't profiting off the chaos post-'93 (or '94 or whenever it was).

...
You think Albanians would be better off if we hadn't sent financial aid?
...

Not just in the case of Albanian, but in a broader sense I think that financial aid by our government does more harm than good. There's an argument that foreign aid provided by governments (like the US) causes a terminal dependency on the aid, bolsters corrupt governments, bloats government through "administrative" or "bureaucratic" costs, and other negative side-effects with little actionable oversight. Not to mention that it completely distorts the market and incentivizes people to chase the foreign aid money through jobs or industries that otherwise wouldn't exist without the aid and would disappear as soon as it dries up (if it ever does).

I think financial aid is not only better managed but more effective when it is provided on a voluntary basis. For example, when non-profits and individuals raise money for causes they believe in or even in non-monetary measures (hosting foreign exchange students is one example).

[wes4dbt]

I make a claim and you demand evidence? How dare you?!

Wasn't really looking for you to provide evidence. Just clarify what financial gain you were talking about.

There's an argument that foreign aid provided by governments (like the US) causes a terminal dependency on the aid, bolsters corrupt governments, bloats government through "administrative" or "bureaucratic" costs, and other negative side-effects with little actionable oversight.

Easy to make such claims, but is that true?? lol
My guess it may be true in some cases but I doubt it's true in all cases. I know we sent aid to a lot of European countries after WWII and they seem to be thriving.

I'm sure it would be easy to make an "argument" that sending aid to an impoverished country saves lives.

The term non-profit doesn't mean people don't make money, doesn't mean the aid they send would be free. So most the jobs and industry would be basically the same. Non-profits are not without their fleas.

I agree that the US sends aid sometimes because it suits there interests but sometimes it is just for humanitarian reasons.

[TysonLPrice]

This seemed interesting to me..."The United States spent nearly $61 billion on foreign aid in 2023. This included $16.4 billion for Ukraine, which received the largest share of the aid" We will spend approximately $936.3 billion on XMAS.

I don't know what that says but the amount spent on XMAS is amazing. I put that in context of politicians squabbling over a few million to help this and a few million to help that. Cutting off money school lunches for poor people etc. I guess it is a matter of priorities.

[dday9]

The term non-profit doesn't mean people don't make money, doesn't mean the aid they send would be free. So most the jobs and industry would be basically the same. Non-profits are not without their fleas.

Not sure if you know, but I'm the CTO of Voluntaryism in Action which is a national non-profit. I don't want to brag but I earn $75 every other week

Of course we're also one of the few organizations that actually release our financial reports on the website. But the guy who I took over was one of those "fleas".

But it disgusts me seeing the salary of CEO's from nonprofits like Goodwill, UNICEF, and United Way which are all around ~$600k.

[TysonLPrice]

Not sure if you know, but I'm the CTO of Voluntaryism in Action which is a national non-profit. I don't want to brag but I earn $75 every other week

Of course we're also one of the few organizations that actually release our financial reports on the website. But the guy who I took over was one of those "fleas".

But it disgusts me seeing the salary of CEO's from nonprofits like Goodwill, UNICEF, and United Way which are all around ~$600k.

A face to a name...very impressive sir!

[dday9]

I posted an update after Hurricane Ida with me all sweaty on my roof here before, but that profile picture is a much better one in my opinion

[FunkyDexter]

That is one handsome son of a gun right there.

Mind you, I'd always pictured this:-

[dday9]

"I said Joe Montaiña"

[FunkyDexter]

While we're doxxing mods, I thought I'd post this picture of Shaggy:-

[wes4dbt]

I'm confused, which one is he???

[Shaggy Hiker]

The beard is now gray. Hair is shorter, too. Hair that long gets in the eyes.

[FunkyDexter]

I'm confused, which one is he???

Could be either one, really...

[TysonLPrice]

Could be either one, really...

You can bearly tell...