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Thread: Israel?

  1. #161
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    Re: Israel?

    It goes completely untaught and mostly disregarded over here.
    Nothing was taught about it when I went to school. I doubt that has changed.

  2. #162
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    Re: Israel?

    Yeah, that's some dirty laundry. I didn't hear how bad it was until I was into my 40s.
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  3. #163
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    LOL thanks. I've been missing your arguments by personal attack.
    You just called us "war apologists", that wasn't personal? I wouldn't have posted anything if you didn't make up your own facts.
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  4. #164
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    Re: Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    Ooh, good example. I'd forgotten the Philippines. I'll be honest that I don't know much about it beyond some history YouTube vids I've caught over the years. It goes completely untaught and mostly disregarded over here.

    While I'm about it, I really should have mentioned all the South American proxy wars that were used to prop up friendly (and often awful) regimes.

    Honestly, though, I think the US has been a broadly benign player on the world stage with spikes of unpleasant transactionalism. I think you guys have much to be proud of but I hate exceptionalism. Y'aint saints.
    I just spent some time reading about that. I was not aware of that and they didn't teach it the high school I went to. One source likened it to American's "Manifest Destiny", when the continental expansion was complete the Philippines were next. They didn't fare much better then the American Indians. Except they still have a country.
    Last edited by TysonLPrice; Dec 14th, 2023 at 10:52 AM.
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  5. #165
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    Re: Israel?

    I don't understand this blind support the US has for Israel. It's been like that as long as I can remember. If a lot of our involvement is transactional based, then what does Israel bring to the table?? I'm sure there's a reason for our support, I just don't know what it is.
    This is part of a post I made in #151

    Never got an answer. So I thought I'd ask again. Considering 30,000 death in Gaza and the US is still vetoing measures to restrain Israel in the UN.

  6. #166

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    Re: Israel?

    To get an answer you would have to accept that there is something behind the US government moving the strings, from what I know of you , you won't accept that so you won't get an answer, or maybe get one of those "bend" answers we usually get here.
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  7. #167
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    Re: Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by sapator View Post
    To get an answer you would have to accept that there is something behind the US government moving the strings, from what I know of you , you won't accept that so you won't get an answer, or maybe get one of those "bend" answers we usually get here.
    That certainly isn't an answer, just a vague unsupported accusation. What's to accept? That the government has some reason I don't know. Well yeah, that's why I'm asking.

  8. #168
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    Re: Israel?

    Sapator NEEDS somebody to be pulling the strings.

    There are a variety of factors. I have no idea which is the strongest. One of the weird ones is that evangelicals strongly support Israel for the peculiar reason that they feel Israel is necessary for the end times to arrive.
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  9. #169
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    Re: Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Sapator NEEDS somebody to be pulling the strings.

    There are a variety of factors. I have no idea which is the strongest. One of the weird ones is that evangelicals strongly support Israel for the peculiar reason that they feel Israel is necessary for the end times to arrive.
    That reason surprises me. I always felt that the Christians sort of had a grudge against the Jews. Because of not believing Jesus is the son of God. Also, some blame the Jews for Jesus being crucified.

    You got anymore reasons you want to share??
    Last edited by wes4dbt; Mar 3rd, 2024 at 01:40 PM.

  10. #170
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    Re: Israel?

    Politics in general.

    I was surprised by the evangelical thing, too. Generally, they are anti-Jew for a couple reasons, but there is a belief that Israel has to be reformed for the end times to come...or maybe it's just Jerusalem. Can't say I pay all that much attention to it.
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  11. #171
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    Re: Israel?

    Politics in general.
    Your previous reason was much more interesting. lol

    I just don't see what the benefits are or what the political reasons are. They're only @ 2.5% of the population, Israel has no resources we need. I imagine their location could be beneficial. But as blindly as we protect them it feels more like we feel we owe them our loyalty.
    Last edited by wes4dbt; Mar 3rd, 2024 at 02:11 PM.

  12. #172

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    Re: Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Sapator NEEDS somebody to be pulling the strings.
    I don't need nobody to be doing anything. On the other hand you NEED some just explanation for all is happening lately. Hopefully 9 June we will get that answer. If not, meh, keep WOKEing.
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  13. #173
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    Re: Israel?

    No, I don't need an explanation. YOU need everything to have an explanation, I don't. I'm quite content with emergent behavior.
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  14. #174
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    Re: Israel?

    That reason surprises me. I always felt that the Christians sort of had a grudge against the Jews. Because of not believing Jesus is the son of God. Also, some blame the Jews for Jesus being crucified.
    I think what Shaggy was referring to is basically the extreme end of Zionism. I'm going to try and be careful with my wording here because they tend to mean different things to different people. I'm not setting out to offend or condemn and if I do it's out of ignorance.

    At the moderate end, Zionism is the belief that the Jews should be allowed to establish a homeland in Palestine as that's where the Jewish faith historically emerged. At the extreme end (and this is the bit they share with some extreme evangelicals, I think) there is a belief that the reason for the establishment of that homeland is that God's plan requires his chosen children to return to Israel before the end times can occur. It's necessary because God promised to save Israel in Romans and Israel, in this context, is taken to refer to both the state and the Jewish people. So the belief is that God cannot proceed with his plan if his chosen people aren't in Israel. Since some extreme evangelicals believe it is their duty to see God's plan enacted, they therefore must support a Jewish State in Palestine.

    I've probably made a bunch of errors in that but that's the gist.

    Personally I think a more compelling reason for the support is a hang over from the Cold War. The USSR tended to court (pretty successfully) the Muslim Nations while NATO tended to court Israel. Both spent the latter half of the 20th century warring with each other with Israel usually getting the best of it. I'm not sure which was the chicken and which was the egg but it led to some pretty entrenched diplomatic positions that persisted after the collapse of the Berlin Wall.



    Interestingly, I just heard Kamala Harris on the news calling for an "immediate ceasefire" so it sounds like the Biden Administration has finally run out of patience with Netanyahu (though probably not with Israel) and might start applying some real pressure. I hope so because I think what's happening at present is awful. The shooting at the food convoy over the weekend was a new low.
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  15. #175
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    Re: Israel?

    Yeah, that's pretty much my (fuzzy) understanding of it. I was thinking that the USSR got along well with some Arab nations, but I realized that that wasn't adequate, as the US was pretty close with Saudi Arabia throughout, then got pretty friendly with Jordan and Egypt at various times. I don't think it fully explains the support for Israel, which has lots of other factors, such as votes in the US, WW II, and so forth. Basically, lots of little things.

    I would guess that all sides now agree that Netanyahu is too much of a net yahu to be tolerated much longer.
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  16. #176

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    Re: Israel?

    So Arab nations adore you and the reason is WWII ?
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    πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν·

  17. #177
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    Re: Israel?

    zionism is very much like feminism. the official definition is vastly different than what it actually is, which is a satanic version of the old testament, called the talmud.

    the Talmud is a discipline of rules that allows the higher ups in the cult set whatever rules and actions they see fit.

    Islam is also problematic. imagine 25 minutes and 5 times a day listening to the Imam scream via a megaphone for example.

    the solution is very simple. pass a law to ban circumcisions. without that satanic
    ritual, the religions fall apart as these are the prerequisite for conversion.

    naturally the ban should apply even if the citizens perform them abroad.

    other wise you get infinite killings to determine whose imaginary friend is bigger.
    down that coffee slug

  18. #178

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    Re: Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by NTShpikho View Post
    imagine 25 minutes and 5 times a day listening to the Imam scream via a megaphone for example.
    That's how I used to pass my days listening to metal.
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    Re: Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Yeah, that's pretty much my (fuzzy) understanding of it. I was thinking that the USSR got along well with some Arab nations, but I realized that that wasn't adequate, as the US was pretty close with Saudi Arabia throughout, then got pretty friendly with Jordan and Egypt at various times. I don't think it fully explains the support for Israel, which has lots of other factors, such as votes in the US, WW II, and so forth. Basically, lots of little things.

    I would guess that all sides now agree that Netanyahu is too much of a net yahu to be tolerated much longer.
    I wonder sometimes if it's not because of the US/UK involvement in establishing Israel and protecting it, especially during the first 30yrs, that makes us blind to bad things Israel has done. Because some how if Israel does something wrong that would mean we were wrong.

    Maybe that's just one of the little things SH refers to.
    Last edited by wes4dbt; Mar 4th, 2024 at 02:04 PM.

  20. #180

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    Re: Israel?

    OK.
    So, check it. Arab nations adore you, yes and Israel is protected due to WWII and you feel, you feel, you ,oh brother, feel obliged, to protect Israel because you where involved to it in the first 30 years.
    And still, may I take your coat sir, hasn't posted.
    This forum is amazing!
    Unfortunately I have so much work coming up that I don't think I will be posting a lot, maybe fast posting.

    P.S. If is sounded, malevolent it's not my intention but I'm reading amazing stuff here.
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  21. #181
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    Re: Israel?

    Unfortunately I have so much work coming up that I don't think I will be posting a lot, maybe fast posting.

    Promises, promises..
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  22. #182
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    Re: Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by sapator View Post
    That's how I used to pass my days listening to metal.
    Awesome reply, there.
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  23. #183
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    Re: Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by sapator View Post
    So Arab nations adore you and the reason is WWII ?
    No, no Arab nation adores us, but some are close to us...and vilify us, which is fine. WW II is unrelated.
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  24. #184

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    Re: Israel?

    I suppose you are pushing the adoration, till the oil runs dry.
    Then will be only ruins.
    If we ever extract oil here I'm expecting a lot of adoration from US.
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  25. #185
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    Re: Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by sapator View Post
    I suppose you are pushing the adoration, till the oil runs dry.
    Then will be only ruins.
    If we ever extract oil here I'm expecting a lot of adoration from US.
    Yeah, we're funny that way. We seem willing to embrace anybody, so long as they have what we want.
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    Re: Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Yeah, we're funny that way. We seem willing to embrace anybody, so long as they have what we want.
    That's a common trait through out the world. Not unique to the US. Not unique to governments either, it's a common human trait.

  27. #187
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    Re: Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    That's a common trait through out the world. Not unique to the US. Not unique to governments either, it's a common human trait.
    We are very kind and social animals, right up until we are not...
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  28. #188
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    Re: Israel?

    Now the US is going to build a pier to provide aide to Gaza. Seems like the hard way of doing it.

  29. #189
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Israel?

    They'll be shipping stuff from other countries. It will be a pier-to-pier network.
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  30. #190
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    Re: Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    Now the US is going to build a pier to provide aide to Gaza. Seems like the hard way of doing it.
    So it would a pier, but ships can carry a LOT of goods relative to trucks, and the inspection process could be streamlined. If that happens, they could possibly bring all the goods needed through that one port, though it might succumb to pier pressure.
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  31. #191
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    Re: Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    So it would a pier, but ships can carry a LOT of goods relative to trucks, and the inspection process could be streamlined. If that happens, they could possibly bring all the goods needed through that one port, though it might succumb to pier pressure.
    I understand the concept, just not the necessity.

  32. #192
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    Re: Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    I understand the concept, just not the necessity.
    I just have to disagree with that...

    "There is a risk of famine in the projection period through May 2024 if the current situation persists or worsens," it said. The United Nations said in February that more than a quarter of Gaza's 2.3 million people were "estimated to be facing catastrophic levels of deprivation and starvation."

    The UN reports that the decline in the population's nutrition status is at a globally unprecedented rate; children in Gaza are being starved at the fastest rate that the world has ever seen. Experts found that one in six children under two years old in northern Gaza are now acutely malnourished.

    But there are groups that think they deserve it
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  33. #193
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    Re: Israel?

    I understand the concept, just not the necessity.
    Is it the need for aid you're questioning or the method of delivery. I'd disagree with you either way but for different reasons.

    I think the people of Gaza definitely need aid right now and they've not been getting it. Pretty much every international aid organisation agrees on that. I think you can debate whether the responsibility for delivering it lies with the US but 1. I think it really rests with everyone. It's not a Nationality thing, it's a humanity thing. And 2. I don't think the US (or the UK, for that matter) has been leading on this. In fact we've been lagging behind the rest of the world. That said the US does have the logistic capability as well as the political clout with Israel to facilitate getting a project like this done.

    As for whether this is a sensible way to go about it, no, it isn't, not really. The sensible way to go about it would be trucks through Israel but Israel has been blocking and choking that off since the word go. There have been some air drops recently but that's a ridiculously expensive and inefficient mechanism. So this seems like the last option available. It's not a good option but I can't think of a better one.
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  34. #194
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Israel?

    I was mostly about making puns, but the point Funky made is largely correct. Gaza can't feed itself. It never could, as it was largely a city. Cities in the US are estimated to have roughly a week of food supplies on hand, so without constant supply, people would start starving within a week. Gaza may be somewhat better off, considering they've faced greater food insecurity, and might have built up larger reserves. On the other hand, they've been bombed pretty steadily, so those reserves may be rubble, by now.

    The main artery for supplies into Gaza was through one entryway in Israel, which Israel has cut off. That left a minor access point through Egypt, which was never capable of handling the necessary throughput even in the best of times. These are not the best of times. Trucks are undergoing extensive inspections and delays, so an inadequate port of entry is now hopeless. Israel could fix this, but shows no inclination to do so. Even if they re-opened their larger facility, they'd still slow walk the inspection of trucks, and food supplies will be inadequate.

    Air was never realistic. It would take a few planes to realistically be able to air drop what a single truck can carry. Meanwhile, a single cargo ship can carry what several trucks could carry. At this point, assuming a pier can be built pretty quickly (we used to be able to, but that skill might have atrophied), delivery from a ship is probably the only way to avoid mass starvation.
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  35. #195
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    Re: Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    I just have to disagree with that...

    "There is a risk of famine in the projection period through May 2024 if the current situation persists or worsens," it said. The United Nations said in February that more than a quarter of Gaza's 2.3 million people were "estimated to be facing catastrophic levels of deprivation and starvation."

    The UN reports that the decline in the population's nutrition status is at a globally unprecedented rate; children in Gaza are being starved at the fastest rate that the world has ever seen. Experts found that one in six children under two years old in northern Gaza are now acutely malnourished.

    But there are groups that think they deserve it
    You misunderstand. I'm all for Gaza getting aid.

    As for whether this is a sensible way to go about it, no, it isn't, not really. The sensible way to go about it would be trucks through Israel but Israel has been blocking and choking that off since the word go. There have been some air drops recently but that's a ridiculously expensive and inefficient mechanism. So this seems like the last option available. It's not a good option but I can't think of a better one.
    What the US should be doing is condemning Israel totally for the murdering of civilians. Stop waffling and stop vetoing UN measures trying to hold Israel accountable and stop providing military aid. Israel can't stand for long against everyone.

    Air was never realistic. It would take a few planes to realistically be able to air drop what a single truck can carry
    I'd say the Berlin air drop proves it can be done and there are much larger more powerful planes that can carry as much as a truck. But that's not what I'm suggesting. This madness needs to stop and there are ways of doing that.

    I have to admit that the military buff in me is curious of what this temporary port would look like and how long it would take. If it's something that can be accomplished in a few days then perhaps it's a good idea. But it just seems like a way to avoid doing the right thing.
    Last edited by wes4dbt; Mar 8th, 2024 at 02:32 PM.

  36. #196
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    Re: Israel?

    Berlin had an airfield, and the planes were probably still there from the war. Maybe that actually makes it harder? The only airdrops I have seen have been relatively small packages. Can you drop whole pallets from a plane with any accuracy, and have them parachute without too much damage? If so, then not needing to land might make it easier than the Berlin airlift. Don't know, though.
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  37. #197
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    Re: Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Berlin had an airfield, and the planes were probably still there from the war. Maybe that actually makes it harder? The only airdrops I have seen have been relatively small packages. Can you drop whole pallets from a plane with any accuracy, and have them parachute without too much damage? If so, then not needing to land might make it easier than the Berlin airlift. Don't know, though.
    I'm not sure of the max size they're capable of safely dropping. Have seen some large ones being dropped. I'd say just a little smaller than a shipping container. The military also have hover craft that could ferry goods from ships. They can carry an Abrams Tank, that's 60tons. There are heavy lift helicopters. There are ways, if we have the commitment. I don't mean just us, it not just our responsibility. But all of this isn't my point. My point is lets open up the roads that are already there, lets stop this massacre.
    Last edited by wes4dbt; Mar 8th, 2024 at 09:24 PM.

  38. #198
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    Re: Israel?

    Yeah.
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  39. #199
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    Re: Israel?

    Here is an example:
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by TysonLPrice; Mar 9th, 2024 at 06:08 AM.
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    Re: Israel?

    Since no one is willing to do anything more than say "shame on you" to Israel, I guess any way we can increase aid is a good thing. The fact this will take @ 60days indicates the US has no plans to change it's stance any time soon.

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