Israel?

[sapator]

It might. I don't like it but it just might...

[wes4dbt]

I think if Israel just keep bombing the hell out of Gaza they're going to continue to loose support. I'm surprised they haven't started a ground offensive. Seems like there would be a lot less civilian casualties.

[FunkyDexter]

I think if Israel just keep bombing the hell out of Gaza they're going to continue to loose support

I agree and I think it's already happening. The rhetoric has changed drastically over the last couple of weeks.

I'm surprised they haven't started a ground offensive. Seems like there would be a lot less civilian casualties.

My hunch is because it will either:-
1. Kill massive numbers of civilians or
2. Have zero effect on Hamas

Hamas at this point will be thoroughly interspersed with the general populace and indistinguishable from them. To win this Israel's operation needs to be intelligence led. The usual MO for that is to win hearts and minds so that the general populace are willing to shop the terrorists but I suspect that ship has sailed for Israel. The alternative is to embed agents in Hamas to feed intelligence back but that's an incredibly lengthy and risky process.

[TysonLPrice]

If my understanding is correct the fuel is about to run out in Gaza and Israel is adamant about not letting any through. I'm hearing international doctors, and I mention that to try and lend some credibility to it, say that the hospitals are about to become morgues. Food and water are also running out. It feels like they kept them in a ghetto for years and now it is time to clean them out. That will be more bad press for Israel.

[wes4dbt]

Yeah, I don't know how much longer Israel can continue their current tactics before even their supporters are forced to abandon them. That would really put Israel in a vulnerable position.

The current situation is terribly inhumane.

[dday9]

I don't agree with Obama very often, but he recently released this statement:

The Israeli government's decision to cut off food, water and electricity to a captive civilian population (in Gaza) threatens not only to worsen a growing humanitarian crisis; it could further harden Palestinian attitudes for generations, erode global support for Israel, play into the hands of Israel's enemies, and undermine long-term efforts to achieve peace and stability in the region...

Essentially he is parroting the ever more important "Ron Paul moment" in 2008 when he describes to Guiliani what blowback is. Explaining that while the actions on one side are not justifiable but just painting a picture of how a group of people become compelled to engage in terrorist activities.

I think the real issue in this is that there is true discrimination going on in the middle east, something that the US and other first world countries simply cannot comprehend. There is serious propaganda from Israel that teaches people at a very young age to hate the Palestinians and there is equally serious propaganda from Palestine that teaches their young to hate the Israelis. Ultimately we will need reasonable people on both sides who can put aside their hatred to find peace. Unfortunately, neither Netanyahu and those in the Likud party nor Hamas have shown that they are willing to do this.

[wes4dbt]

I don't agree with Obama very often, but he recently released this statement:


Essentially he is parroting the ever more important "Ron Paul moment" in 2008 when he describes to Guiliani what blowback is. Explaining that while the actions on one side are not justifiable but just painting a picture of how a group of people become compelled to engage in terrorist activities.

I think the real issue in this is that there is true discrimination going on in the middle east, something that the US and other first world countries simply cannot comprehend. There is serious propaganda from Israel that teaches people at a very young age to hate the Palestinians and there is equally serious propaganda from Palestine that teaches their young to hate the Israelis. Ultimately we will need reasonable people on both sides who can put aside their hatred to find peace. Unfortunately, neither Netanyahu and those in the Likud party nor Hamas have shown that they are willing to do this.

Yeah, I basically agree.

Their eye for an eye tactics really has left two groups of blind people. With the innocent paying the majority of price.

[Shaggy Hiker]

No good actors in charge of the PLA, either.

One reason that they might be holding off on the ground offensive is that they might not win by any measure. Right now, they are using bombs, which Hamas has no realistic means of countering even a little bit. With a ground offensive into an urban area, against an enemy that has clearly been planning for a very long time, it may be that there are a bunch of unpleasant surprises waiting in, under, and around the streets. I don't know if it is the case, but it seem reasonable to expect that Hamas assumed a ground offensive would follow after their attack. They may have planned for that, and may even be counting on it. After all, drone warfare is becoming very accessible.

Israel has the highly effective Iron Dome defensive system. That system takes out most rockets fired into Israel, and could take care of drones pretty effectively. Therefore, it is possible that Hamas was just trying to lure Israel into coming out from under the defense of Iron Dome by attacking into Gaza.

I think we're going to find out whether that conjecture is true or not.

[Shaggy Hiker]

One sentence of that is technically correct, but may not read right: I'm suggesting that Hamas may have staged their attack partly to lure Israel into attacking them.

[wes4dbt]

Hamas at this point will be thoroughly interspersed with the general populace and indistinguishable from them

If this is true then Israel's goal of wiping out Hamas isn't possible without wiping out everyone in Gaza. Even then some would have fled to other countries. It's just a mess. Brings back memories of Vietnam. Actually the problem of knowing who is the enemy also reminds me of Afghanistan and Iraq.

[TysonLPrice]

If this is true then Israel's goal of wiping out Hamas isn't possible without wiping out everyone in Gaza. Even then some would have fled to other countries. It's just a mess. Brings back memories of Vietnam. Actually the problem of knowing who is the enemy also reminds me of Afghanistan and Iraq.

Reminds me of all those years in the office

[dday9]

Reminds me of all those years in the office

It's always Toby Flenderson.

[FunkyDexter]

If this is true then Israel's goal of wiping out Hamas isn't possible without wiping out everyone in Gaza

I suspect that that is the tragic truth. The war on terror was the best rallying call Islamic extremists ever had and this is probably going to replace that.

I know the situations are wildly different but the only analogue I can speak to is the situation in Northern Ireland. That only came to an end (sort of) when reasonable leaders on both sides reached out to each other, brokered by a British Government who'd stepped away from the hard line rhetoric. (I say sort of because there are still divisions but they're not even close to what they were in the 70s and 80s). But I feel like the divisions in the Middle East run MUCH deeper and I'm not sure there are really any figure heads who would survive being seen to call for peace.

[FunkyDexter]

So the IDF bombed a refugee camp, killing some 80 civilians and justified it because they managed to kill one Hamas commander and it's not their fault that Hamas are using Palestinians as human shields. This is awful.

I did hear one commentator (James O'Brien) make a good point: If the Hamas commander had been hiding in a camp full of Israeli's would the IDF still have felt that killing 80 "human shields" was a justifiable side effect?

[dday9]

So the IDF bombed a refugee camp, killing some 80 civilians and justified it because they managed to kill one Hamas commander and it's not their fault that Hamas are using Palestinians as human shields. This is awful.

Unfortunately I'm not surprised. I said this almost a month ago.

...On the other hand, if history repeats itself (which it appears to be happening) then the war crimes that Israel will commit will be equally as bad...

[FunkyDexter]

Yeah, this all feels horribly predictable at this point.

[TysonLPrice]

FOX news is starting up their dividing America narrative again. They split people during Covid and masking. They constantly do it between democrats and republicans. Their newest is pitting pro-Palestinian" protesters against Jews. That the protesters are actually pro Hamas. They are doing it on student campus protests and American cities. They are going to hurt someone this time.

[wes4dbt]

FOX news is starting up their dividing America narrative again. They split people during Covid and masking. They constantly do it between democrats and republicans. Their newest is pitting pro-Palestinian" protesters against Jews. That the protesters are actually pro Hamas. They are doing it on student campus protests and American cities. They are going to hurt someone this time.

This time? Their mask and vaccine misinformation guests/reporting cost many lives.

But like most news media, their main goal isn't to inform viewers with the facts, it's to grow their viewership.

When it comes to the Israel/Palestine problem my guess is VERY few Americans have much knowledge of how they got to this current situation. I don't have a clear picture, but I know it started long before Oct. 7th. So it makes it very easy for them to shape the story in a way that draws the most viewers.

[TysonLPrice]

This time? Their mask and vaccine misinformation guests/reporting cost many lives.

Agreed...I've said that many times. This time it seems so egregious, so heartless

[dilettante]

There's no chamber like an echo chamber. That crap has long been debunked now.

[dday9]

And that's where y'all lose me.

I will agree that FOX is trying to divide people by cherry picking some of the pro-Palestinian protests but anyone who still believes any of the crap that the corporate media put out on COVID is either a liar or just delusional.

Edit - I mean why even bring COVID up? Was the thread was too civil for you?

[wes4dbt]

And that's where y'all lose me.

I will agree that FOX is trying to divide people by cherry picking some of the pro-Palestinian protests but anyone who still believes any of the crap that the corporate media put out on COVID is either a liar or just delusional.

Edit - I mean why even bring COVID up? Was the thread was too civil for you?

I brought it up as another example of how lies and misinformation can be harmful, even leading to the lose of life. I was being civil but can't say that about you. Calling me a liar or delusional was way out of line. I'd also say you were calling several other members the same thing because I can tell from from their previous posts that they don't agree that masks and vaccines have been debunked, as Dil claims.

[TysonLPrice]

And that's where y'all lose me.

I will agree that FOX is trying to divide people by cherry picking some of the pro-Palestinian protests but anyone who still believes any of the crap that the corporate media put out on COVID is either a liar or just delusional.

Edit - I mean why even bring COVID up? Was the thread was too civil for you?

It was civil until you posted that tripe.

[sapator]

Ye I personally wouldn't say it that way, I would just said: The type of person that says: "Hmmm...the sign on the door says, "AIRLOCK". I wonder what's inside."

https://www.wfrp.de/hosted/flw/en/flw0250.html

[Shaggy Hiker]

Air...duh!

[TysonLPrice]

“Die, why that’s the last thing I’ll do”: Groucho Marx.

https://www.thehistorycorner.org/art...s-from-history

[wes4dbt]

Well, a daily "pause" is something positive, I guess. Not sure where these people have to go or how they will survive when they get there.

I understand Israel filling compelled to respond after Oct. 7th. Just don't see what "wiping out Hamas" will achieve, especially when so many innocents are killed during the process. Even if Israel destroys Hamas they've increased the anger against them from the Palestinians and others, it wont be long before another group step up to take the place of Hamas. so, the cycle continues.

It's a mess and I certainly don't have an answer to the problem. But I doubt destroying Hamas changes things for the better, in the long run.

[Shaggy Hiker]

If they don't have a viable plan for peace afterwards, Hamas will replace Hamas. A new generation will take up the same banner.

[wes4dbt]

If they don't have a viable plan for peace afterwards, Hamas will replace Hamas. A new generation will take up the same banner.

That's what I'm saying. I don't think "peace" is even a consideration in that region. There's been a few weak efforts in the last 50yrs but obviously to no effect.

[sapator]

This might tell something about the world we live in:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_...ition_only.svg

[TysonLPrice]

This might tell something about the world we live in:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_...ition_only.svg

I didn't realize that but it makes sense. The US was the first to recognize Israel and will be the last to recognize the people thrown out to set up the new Israeli nation.

[FunkyDexter]

Well, a daily "pause" is something positive, I guess.

I agree. There's a lot of argument over here at the moment over whether we should argue for a "humanitarian pause" or a "ceasefire". To me that's a distinction without meaning. Anything that stops the immediate killing and is a potential catalyst for talks is a win as far as I'm concerned.

That said, while I think we may be able to apply diplomatic pressure sufficient to get Israel to pause, I'm extremely sceptical that we could affect Hamas's actions. Let's not forget they're still holding hostages and are still launching (ineffectual due to the iron dome) rockets.

This might tell something about the world we live in

Yeah, that was quite surprising. I've always thought that the UK recognised Palestine and we've long championed a two state solution. Hard to see how you can do that when you don't recognise one of the states.

[sapator]

The gray left or Russia and below Ukraine is "Transnistria"
That is the dream country of LGBT and friends !

[sapator]

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/travel...a/10188153002/

[NTShpikho]

what the world needs is libertarianism, because wars and oppression are powered by fear, taxation, usury and artificial inflation.

[FunkyDexter]

I'm going to sound a cautious note of optimism. The hostage/prisoner exchanges seem to be going well and the ceasefire has held for several days now. I really hope this can grow into a more lasting peace. Israel is saying that they'll recommence after the hostages are all released but hopefully the wider community, particularly the USA (because you've got clout) can apply some soft diplomatic pressure to turn that around.

[TysonLPrice]

I'm going to sound a cautious note of optimism. The hostage/prisoner exchanges seem to be going well and the ceasefire has held for several days now. I really hope this can grow into a more lasting peace. Israel is saying that they'll recommence after the hostages are all released but hopefully the wider community, particularly the USA (because you've got clout) can apply some soft diplomatic pressure to turn that around.

Maybe between global commendation and feeling like they got their "pound of flesh" Israel is pushing on the brake. Let's see what kind of hate grows out of that rubble.

[Shaggy Hiker]

On the other side, if Israel puts a full stop on this, the internal outrage at government failures will grow louder. With a leader so keen on self preservation as Bibi is, I'm not sure that he sees peace as being in his best interest.

[wes4dbt]

Maybe with other countries getting involved there is a very very slim chance of some type of peace. But I don't see it, this pause is happening because both sides feel they're benefitting. I don't see either side looking for peace.

Just to much deep and long occurring hate.

[Shaggy Hiker]

With a little political expediency mixed in for flavor.