Israel?

[dday9]

My understanding is more or less in line with Tyson's: that they were elected at some point but now they don't do elections anymore.

[TysonLPrice]

Israel's stated purpose is to wipe out Hamas and their capabilities in Gaza. I can't argue against that as a matter of course and not taking any sides historically. But around 40% of the population of Gaza is under eighteen. They are just buying a decade or so if they don't change the way they treat the Palestinians. It will be just another vicious cycle.

[wes4dbt]

Israel's stated purpose is to wipe out Hamas and their capabilities in Gaza. I can't argue against that as a matter of course and not taking any sides historically. But around 40% of the population of Gaza is under eighteen. They are just buying a decade or so if they don't change the way they treat the Palestinians. It will be just another vicious cycle.

Seems like this cycle has been going on for 70+ yrs. Israel hasn't helped the situation with it's land grabs and treating the Palestinians poorly. It's hard to say who Hamas actually is, there are so many other neighboring countries that are anti Israel. For some reason our politicians and media are very pro Israel so it's hard to get an accurate picture.

Thinking wiping out Hamas will buy them a peaceful decade seems optimistic.

[Shaggy Hiker]

They'll make a whole new round of enemies. I understand the motivation, but it doesn't seem likely to solve the underlying problem. Not that there's any other obvious solution, though. The international community may recognize the PLA, but the PLA is essentially a moribund, pseudo-political group with no real legitimacy.

[FunkyDexter]

I don't think you mean the PLA. The PLA is the army, though who commands it is somewhat fluid. I think you mean Fata who are the political alternative to Hamas. They're currently in control of the West bank while Hamas control the Gaza Strip. Fata are a lot less militant than Hamas though there have long been suspicions that they have sponsored terrorism.

It's hard to say who Hamas actually is, there are so many other neighboring countries that are anti Israel

Not really. Hamas are pretty open about their existence and politics. You're correct that they're far from the only neighbouring terrorist group that hate Israel though. The other most notable one is Hezbollah who are based on Southern Lebanon and you can bet for sure they'll be making incursions into Northern Israel in the next couple of weeks.

Whether any actual State actors get involved is a lot ore dubious but I wouldn't rule it out. Either way you can be sure funds and equipment are going to be flowing into Hezbollah and Hamas.

It's interesting to see how this is being portrayed by the media over here. It started with outright and unequivocal condemnation of Hamas but the voices pointing out Israel's past actions against the Palestinians are growing louder. As is the criticism of the indiscriminate measures Israel has taken in response.

[dilettante]

I joined another forum site recently, because almost all of it is hidden to non-members. Seems a little skeezy in itself, but an attraction was its claim "strictly non-political."

For several days that seemed true enough. Attempts at starting such threads got moved to a quarantined sub-forum and typically soon closed.

Then this crap breaks out in the middle east, and whoa!

Thread after thread hard-lining one position, all but unmoderated until any opposition to the Party Line is hinted at in a post. Posting link after link to "photos of murdered children" and such. Demands made of countering voices to recant. Listing names of people "canceled" out of their careers due to their opinions on this conflict. None of it moved to quarantine, despite diatribes that would make a WW II fascist blush.

I followed some links and found the same thing occurring during other events. One of the biggest being during that Canadian Trucker's Protest interval.

Such a hostile place, hiding innocently and then lashing out hard. Canadian based, which explains a lot. Spend some time in Toronto or Montreal and you will find out fast. I'm not sure how many Americans realize how foreign things are in Canada's population centers.

[sapator]

What is talked about is US ships moving toward and trying to somehow involve Iraq to the atrocities so they can strike some of it's oil reserves. That was supposed to be demanded by oil tycoons of US to Biden.
We can't say for sure but it will either happen soon enough or not at all. Those are the rumors.

[dilettante]

I'm sure oil and money are involved but I also think ideologies are at play. What I'm less sure about is the "Why now?" aspect. I suppose things might have just boiled over randomly again. We're being fed stuff like:

Hamas has said it was motivated to launch the attack essentially as the culmination of long-building anger over Israeli policy, including recent outbreaks of violence at the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, but more generally over the treatment of Palestinians and the expansion of Israeli settlements.

I suppose that's possible and some hothead just decided to "press the button."

[Shaggy Hiker]

The region is kind of like a geyser. The heat and pressure build and build, until eventually things erupt. It might be major, it might be minor. It might last for days or years.

The group I was thinking of is whoever is headed by Mahmoud Abbas, which is the Palestinian Authority. Isn't that the PLA?

[sapator]

In the end Turkey , I mean Erdogan is a financier of Hamas , it goes up down and beyond and in relationships of Turkey with US and not giving them fighter planes. So it might be a possible reason. Why now? Maybe all the pieces of the puzzle connected somehow. Both those are theories that cannot be supported and we all know how many "givemeproffers" are lurking so I say again these are theories. Well except Ergogan financing Hamas, we know that for years but it's because Greece has an interest since we are at tension with Turkey and probably slipped of passed by from other countries.

[techgnome]

The region is kind of like a geyser. The heat and pressure build and build, until eventually things erupt. It might be major, it might be minor. It might last for days or years.

The group I was thinking of is whoever is headed by Mahmoud Abbas, which is the Palestinian Authority. Isn't that the PLA?

PLA = Palestinian Liberation Army
from wikipedia

the military wing of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), set up at the 1964 Arab League summit held in Alexandria, Egypt, with the mission of fighting Israel. However, it has never been under effective PLO control, but rather it has been controlled by its various host governments

Kinda sounds like a Palestinian version of the IRA ... only less restrained.


-tg

[FunkyDexter]

The group I was thinking of is whoever is headed by Mahmoud Abbas, which is the Palestinian Authority. Isn't that the PLA?

Yeah, TG's right although I realised I had a brain fart and forgot about the PLO, which is almost certainly what you meant. Ultimately the PLO morphed into Fata so we let's say say you were 100% right except for a typo.

The region is kind of like a geyser.

It's been that way since biblical times so it's an Old Geyser.

[sapator]

First inhabited of course by Greeks and Jewels.

Interesting read here:
https://www.science.org/content/arti...ous-canaanites

And here for Greece living now are ancestors of Greece lived back in BC years
https://www.science.org/content/arti...nt-dna-reveals

[sapator]

PLA = Palestinian Liberation Army
from wikipedia


Kinda sounds like a Palestinian version of the IRA ... only less restrained.


-tg

that reminded me of this:

[TysonLPrice]

Israel has given 1.1 million people in Gaza 24 hours to move "south". Lots of innocent people are going to suffer and die because of a handful of leaders. History continues to repeat itself. And I don't mean just this conflict, for as long as we have been around.

[sapator]

I can't recall a history cycle that someone gave 24 hours for people to move south before bombing...I'm thinking US at some point? But can't recall.

[TysonLPrice]

I can't recall a history cycle that someone gave 24 hours for people to move south before bombing...I'm thinking US at some point? But can't recall.

I guess I wasn't clear about my point...

Lots of innocent people are going to suffer and die because of a handful of leaders. History continues to repeat itself. And I don't mean just this conflict, for as long as we have been around.

Throughout history a handful of leaders have caused the suffering and death of many innocents. Taking people/nations to war. I'm not referring to the specific conflict, but throughout history.

[sapator]

Ah, OK.
That, I don't think it will ever stop, well at least until we go Star Trek and then leaders from Gama12 will cause us suffer.

[sapator]

Currently Iran and Iraq are deploying forces to fight if Israel goes into Gaza. The oil scenario we talked bout, maybe it's not just a scenario....

[TysonLPrice]

Currently Iran and Iraq are deploying forces to fight if Israel goes into Gaza. The oil scenario we talked bout, maybe it's not just a scenario....

I seriously doubt that and I'm pretty sure that, if they do, it will be the end of Iran as they know it...

[sapator]

Not if they hit one oil reserve.
I guess tomorrow might be the day so it's a sort scenario to see if it turns out.

[wes4dbt]

Israel has given 1.1 million people in Gaza 24 hours to move "south". Lots of innocent people are going to suffer and die because of a handful of leaders. History continues to repeat itself. And I don't mean just this conflict, for as long as we have been around.

I don't get the sense that the Palestinians really have leaders. Hamas seems more like an occupying army. But your right, the innocent pay a heavy price. Mans inhumanity to man is as old as mankind.

[dilettante]

I think I'll just back away from this mess.

[TysonLPrice]

I think I'll just back away from this mess.

That is pretty much how the world got here...

[FunkyDexter]

That is pretty much how the world got here...

Yeah, but what is the rest of the world supposed to do on this one? I honestly can't think of much we can do without collectively punishing the populace of one side or the other when they're not really the ones to blame.

Israeli's are a hated minority in their own country and within the wider region so if their regime collapses the things that Hamas did a week ago will look like a Sunday picnic. (Don't forget that the stated aim of Hamas is not the protection of Palestine, it's the eradication of Israel.) But what the Israeli state has done over the last 5 decades is apartheid at the very least and ethnic cleansing at the worst.

If the rest of the world wants to intervene we're presented with a choice of which set of absolute scumbags to back unless we position ourselves as Neutral Mediators. And that doesn't seem feasible when one side doesn't have a centralised leadership to engage with and the other is a far right party bent on local domination at any measure. Neither side wants mediation.

And, in the meantime the people from both sides get to soak up all the pain while their leaders posture. It's a wholly depressing spectacle.

[sapator]

Ye but the "sheriff" went there from the first second.
Yiiiihaaaa!!!

[TysonLPrice]

Yeah, but what is the rest of the world supposed to do on this one? I honestly can't think of much we can do without collectively punishing the populace of one side or the other when they're not really the ones to blame.

Israeli's are a hated minority in their own country and within the wider region so if their regime collapses the things that Hamas did a week ago will look like a Sunday picnic. (Don't forget that the stated aim of Hamas is not the protection of Palestine, it's the eradication of Israel.) But what the Israeli state has done over the last 5 decades is apartheid at the very least and ethnic cleansing at the worst.

If the rest of the world wants to intervene we're presented with a choice of which set of absolute scumbags to back unless we position ourselves as Neutral Mediators. And that doesn't seem feasible when one side doesn't have a centralised leadership to engage with and the other is a far right party bent on local domination at any measure. Neither side wants mediation.

And, in the meantime the people from both sides get to soak up all the pain while their leaders posture. It's a wholly depressing spectacle.

Agreed...if it was easy, or even doable, it would have happened already. Just my opinion, the Palestinians got a raw deal seventy some years ago and have been treated badly ever since. That same thing has happened to indigenous populations throughout time. What is going on now doesn't compare to say, the American Indians, but the concept is the same. They will be relegated to hardly a society.

But I'm not oblivious to the other side of the issue. I guess that's what makes it hard to come together.

[FunkyDexter]

the Palestinians got a raw deal seventy some years ago and have been treated badly ever since

I agree and I've been defending that position for years. I do feel the need to add, though, that nothing the State of Israel ever did justified the acts that Hamas carried out last week. Equally, those acts do not justify the indiscriminate actions Israel has carried out in response.

Something that I see missing from a lot of the media coverage over the last week: It's possible to condemn the actions of both Hamas and the Israeli state without invalidating the suffering of either the Israeli or Palestinian people.

[dday9]

Something that I see missing from a lot of the media coverage over the last week: It's possible to condemn the actions of both Hamas and the Israeli state without invalidating the suffering of either the Israeli or Palestinian people.

It's easier for people to comprehend binary options. The discussion can only ever be good vs evil, there cannot be any nuance.

[dilettante]

It's easier for people to comprehend binary options. The discussion can only ever be good vs evil, there cannot be any nuance.

That's why I backed away.

[sapator]

Who is good and who is evil? If you look waaaayyy behind the lines, we must know why the first attack started and by whom and I don't mean Hamas.

[TysonLPrice]

There was instant worldwide commendation of the supposed Israeli's strike on a hospital. From all the evidence I've seen it was an errant Hamas rocket. But the misinformation the Israel did it is already out.

There is a lot of misinformation from both sides. I think it is going to get worse before it gets better, and I don't know what "better" looks like.

[sapator]

It was A rocket. We don't know from where.

[TysonLPrice]

It was A rocket. We don't know from where.

Who is "We"? Just look at the evidence, the film of the take off and trajectory, the chatter from Hamas mentioning the launch failure, the damage done by the remaining fuel burning. It was not "A" rocket, it was a Hamas rocket that failed during launch.

[wes4dbt]

Who is "We"? Just look at the evidence, the film of the take off and trajectory, the chatter from Hamas mentioning the launch failure, the damage done by the remaining fuel burning. It was not "A" rocket, it was a Hamas rocket that failed during launch.

Your probably right but all that evidence can be faked. Considering the carnage that Israel's bombing has already caused, you can understand the skepticism. Who ever is responsible, I don't think it was done on purpose.

[TysonLPrice]

Your probably right but all that evidence can be faked. Considering the carnage that Israel's bombing has already caused, you can understand the skepticism. Who ever is responsible, I don't think it was done on purpose.

I agree evidence can be faked and keeping that in mind you also have to consider the source. I'll take the US military assessment of what happened over Hamas claims. I also agree given what Israel has done and is about to do there can be skepticism. I think in this particular case there is no doubt in my mind it was a failed launch.

[sapator]

So, USA issued a worldwide caution alert on travels.
Apparently there is no safe place on earth for Americans but their own, that is still not a safe place....Or you government is doing what our government is doing aka being idiots.
So, no Bora Bora islands vacations this year?

[dday9]

Apparently there is no safe place on earth for Americans but their own, that is still not a safe place

I guarantee you that parts of NOLA is more dangerous than 3rd world countries.

I don't even park my car in New Orleans anymore. I park in Metairie at a friends house and then uber it into the city. It has gotten so bad that even the DA got car jacked: https://www.usnews.com/news/best-sta...is-office-says

Or you government is doing what our government is doing aka being idiots.

In the words of Severus Snape (in only the movies), "Always".

[sapator]

We usually got car jacks in Athens if the criminals wants the car for a robbery or something. We don't have much of random carjacks in the city.
I usually park at my house and walk or use transportation but that is because we have HUGE parking problems and not just in the city.
Some places is literally impossible to park and if you find a spot you get out of your car, honk to some known tune and the neighbors come out to their balconies and throw flowers at you cheering.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Some places is literally impossible to park and if you find a spot you get out of your car, honk to some known tune and the neighbors come out to their balconies and throw flowers at you cheering.

The tune is Never Gonna Give You Up, isn't it?