Israel?

[sapator]

The third apocalypse is happening there and no post yet.
I am cautious to take place as it's all blur right now.

[Shaggy Hiker]

The problems there are deep seated and long festering. This could go in many different directions, some good, others quite bad. We'll just have to see. At this point, the one thing I would say is that things have moved off the position they had been stuck in for quite some time.

[FunkyDexter]

I'm really conflicted on this. I've long supported the Palestinian cause and I feel that Israel has basically been guilty of war crimes against Palestine for decades. But that absolutely doesn't excuse what Hamas have done in the last few days and my heart goes out the innocent Israeli people who've got caught up in it. And I really fear what Israel is going to do in response which might well rise to the definition of ethnic cleansing.

I think there are an awful lot of well meaning Palestinians and Israelis who are currently being represented by a small coterie of absolute *******s.

[wes4dbt]

The problems there are deep seated and long festering.

Real Deep and Real Long festering.

I did find it strange that after only two days of the conflict the US is already sending military aid.

[dilettante]

Follow the money:

DoD Releases Report on Defense Spending by State in Fiscal Year 2022

[sapator]

US will always help Israel.
They did sht for us when we where drawing and burning this summer.
OH they actually did something, the got out of their Greek bases till the phenomena stopped.
NATO, much useful as a ck in the forehead.
Anyhow, I deviated. I think atrocities are from both sides but if I had to predict something I would predict that Israel will prevail one way or the other. Let's hope that it's done soon enough because what I've seen sickens me.

[wes4dbt]

US will always help Israel.

Yeah, that's true but what I thought was strange was that Israel would need military aid after only two days.

[dday9]

It's definitely one of those situations where because I live in the United States, I don't think my opinion on this topic is valid or even complete.

On one hand, the atrocities committed by Hamas are heinous. On the other hand, if history repeats itself (which it appears to be happening) then the war crimes that Israel will commit will be equally as bad.

Israel also has this double standard where if it claims that the West Bank (and other areas) is part of Israel then effectively Israel is an apartheid state but if it claims the opposite then Israel is militarily occupying another state.

It just seems like Israel and Palestine are stuck in this vicious cycle where Palestine and Israel both believe that they are acting in self defense and so Palestine will commit these acts, Israel will crackdown, all will calm down for a few months/years, then a triggering event will occur where it repeats itself and it gets progressively worse each time.

I would love nothing more than for everyone to just get along but when there is no compromise then I don't see how that's even possible.

Where this does affect me is that there is no doubt that the United States will start sending (more) money to Israel when in reality it is a conflict that we have no business in, either directly or indirectly.

I know I'm ranting here, but I recently heard a libertarian take that got my noggin turning. With regards to the Ukraine war, we are sending money and munitions to Ukraine but the corporate media pundits claim that we are not fighting against Russia however if Iran sends money and munitions to Palestine then all of a sudden these same pundits claim that Iran is fighting Israel? It's a bit of a double standard but it does go to show that those with the loudest voices are the ones who will consistently push for the military industrial complex.

[sapator]

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/...oser-to-israel
What really bugs me is that the "sheriff" will instantly send da ships . As dday said, you have no business there. I mean US is on the other side of the map and send ships.
Also apparently US instantly choose side. Take note that they are not acting as NATO this time, they are acting as US.
Even I, that I'm absolute on choosing sides, m skeptic but the Israel lobby is so strong in US that one can say they govern US

[Shaggy Hiker]

US will always help Israel.
They did sht for us when we where drawing and burning this summer.
OH they actually did something, the got out of their Greek bases till the phenomena stopped.
NATO, much useful as a ck in the forehead.
Anyhow, I deviated. I think atrocities are from both sides but if I had to predict something I would predict that Israel will prevail one way or the other. Let's hope that it's done soon enough because what I've seen sickens me.

What did you really expect? We have bigger fires than that every single year, and in multiple states. The military doesn't get involved with that, we have armies of fire fighters...who are not paid all that well, but there are still lots of them. When you were burning, we had fires going all over the place, though this year Canada had it worse than the US, as far as I can tell.

We do trade with Australia, but that's because our fires are in their wet season, and vice versa. Greece is on the same schedule as the US, when it comes to fires. When you are on fire, so are we. We aren't exporting fire fighters at that time, we're importing them.

[Shaggy Hiker]

One thing about military aid: We're the biggest producer, so it's mostly a means of US job support. We're giving money to our industry and sending the results overseas. We aren't so much giving them money to give to others, we're giving money with which to pay ourselves. Not saying it's right or wrong, but it's often a means of funding US industry.

In theory, the PLA is the government of Palestine with which Israel is not negotiating. The PLA is a corrupt mess of the first order. They were supposed to hold elections many years ago and just...didn't bother. Nobody believes they are worth a darn. That leaves Hamas to 'negotiate' for the Palestinians. On the other side, Israel has a government that would like the Palestinians to just go away. They want to take the land, and slowly are doing so through settlements, but they don't want the people. They know they can't assimilate the Palestinians, since they would outnumber the Jewish population of Israel, so their options are either a straight apartheid system, or forcing them all to emigrate...and not complain about it. That's unrealistic.

So, two right wing, potentially violent, groups are in charge on either side. The only thing that surprised Israel is that they thought Hamas was too weak to fight effectively. Now that they have been proven wrong about that, I expect atrocities by both sides. There's nobody on either side to negotiate with.

[dday9]

One thing about military aid: We're the biggest producer, so it's mostly a means of US job support. We're giving money to our industry and sending the results overseas. We aren't so much giving them money to give to others, we're giving money with which to pay ourselves. Not saying it's right or wrong, but it's often a means of funding US industry.

Not saying you're justifying this but I have heard others do so, in fact, a reporter with CNN recently made the same argument like last week. The argument is that foreign aid doesn't necessarily go directly to other countries, rather it goes to Lockheed Martin, which in turn creates jobs in the USA.

The alternative is to just not take the money in the first place, tax payers keep more of their money, and we aren't providing killing machines.

[sapator]

What did you really expect? We have bigger fires than that every single year, and in multiple states. The military doesn't get involved with that, we have armies of fire fighters...who are not paid all that well, but there are still lots of them. When you were burning, we had fires going all over the place, though this year Canada had it worse than the US, as far as I can tell.

We do trade with Australia, but that's because our fires are in their wet season, and vice versa. Greece is on the same schedule as the US, when it comes to fires. When you are on fire, so are we. We aren't exporting fire fighters at that time, we're importing them.

Ahhh, nop.
I'm talking about US bases (10-11, I lost count) that are in Greece operating. We did not get squat from them. One base was by the fire and instead of helping locals they just left and went some blocks to the right without even leaving 2-3 people just for the heck of it.
So you're either cowards or you don't give a f about us (again, it does not apply to regular good ol' US people) .
Also I did not write it but we had a fload in Greece 3 weeks ago and we still have not recovered (see images https://www.newsbomb.gr/ellada/story...lama-karditsas ), there was a military Heli base in the vicinity, the copters just wend up and left. I mean there where civilians on the rooftops that they could have rescued...Nop.
You get the picture why everyone here (except sold out, born out of a rabbit hole on venus, party dogs) hates your guts (again, not lovable hard working peaceful VB6 loving regular US citizens, or is it citizins ) ?

[FunkyDexter]

I know I'm ranting here

Actually, I thought it was a pretty balanced and thought through post.

With regards to the Ukraine war, we are sending money and munitions to Ukraine but the corporate media pundits claim that we are not fighting against Russia however if Iran sends money and munitions to Palestine then all of a sudden these same pundits claim that Iran is fighting Israel?

I disagree with the comparison to Russia/Ukraine. In the case of Russia they're trying to occupy the sovereign territory of another state so they're approximately comparable to Israel. But Ukraine's response has been to fight them on Ukrainian territory and the closest they've come to an atrocity is to fire half a dozen rockets at predominantly military districts in Moscow while Hamas are raping women and beheading babies.

So in Ukraine we have a fairly identifiable good guy to support. In Israel and Palestine we've just got a choice of which truly awful party to support. Either way we're looking at a two way humanitarian catastrophe.

[sapator]

Sorry I couldn't stop giggling in the good guy to support comment.
I'm at work and they looked at me like
OK back on topic now on hating Americans!!!!!!

Niya, cough cough, ehhmm.

[TysonLPrice]

The third apocalypse is happening there and no post yet.
I am cautious to take place as it's all blur right now.

I didn't because I think it is just a matter of time before it devolves and is locked.

[sapator]

Let's hope so.
Killing women and children is not my cup of tea.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Not saying you're justifying this but I have heard others do so, in fact, a reporter with CNN recently made the same argument like last week. The argument is that foreign aid doesn't necessarily go directly to other countries, rather it goes to Lockheed Martin, which in turn creates jobs in the USA.

The alternative is to just not take the money in the first place, tax payers keep more of their money, and we aren't providing killing machines.

Yeah, I wasn't trying to make a value statement about whether we should or shouldn't. That's a different question. All I was saying was that the money isn't just being shipped away, so it has to be evaluated in that context.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Let's hope so.
Killing women and children is not my cup of tea.

Unless they're crossing a road....then they're fair game.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Ahhh, nop.
I'm talking about US bases (10-11, I lost count) that are in Greece operating. We did not get squat from them.

My point, though I didn't make it well, was that we deal with fires every year. The military is not used for such things, since it's essentially routine. I'm not surprised that the military didn't help out in Greece when they aren't asked to help out in the US. In some rare circumstances, the US National Guard has helped a bit with domestic forest fires, but even then they only help with some logistic stuff, not with the actual fire fighting.

You see it as an all-hands-on-deck emergency, we see it as summer.

[sapator]

What?
That is nop again.
I was in the army we where send to fires.
I remember smelling like burned OAK for days after that.

[dilettante]

On March 9, 2023, the Biden-Harris Administration submitted to Congress a proposed Fiscal Year (FY) 2024 Budget request of $842 billion for the Department of Defense (DoD), an increase of $26 billion over FY 2023 levels and $100 billion more than FY 2022.

https://www.defense.gov/News/Release...efense-budget/

Those darned right-wingers, they're everywhere!

And that was before this additional excuse.

[sapator]

What?
That is nop again.
I was in the army we where send to fires.
I remember smelling like burned OAK for days after that.

And then again if US has bases here allegedly to help us , where do we be expecting to help us and on what ground. If and when we have war? Will call them. When we had "issues" with Turkey they where whistling in the rain again.

[sapator]

https://www.defense.gov/News/Release...efense-budget/

Those darned right-wingers, they're everywhere!

And that was before this additional excuse.

That is US business', selling weapons and creating wars. I would be surprised if they had a low budget. Thank God some people over there see some issues on that and not swallowing the whole "war on terror" by default.

Edit:
Also good for them. I mean if we where to sell weapons (not conducting wars to sell weapons) we would probably do the same but we don't even produce a gun screw nowadays , thanks to the , born out of Jason but looked like Freddy , politician traitors.

[Shaggy Hiker]

You'll have to work on your insults, that one wasn't up to your usual standards. It took too long to get going.

The US is one of the leading sellers of weapons. I'm not thrilled about that, but I recognize it is so.

Of course, Israel has always been a major customer. So, perhaps sending the carrier group is akin to sending a technician around to check out an on-site issue?

[Shaggy Hiker]

One of the "fun" twists with US politics is that only Republicans can cut defense spending safely. Democrats get pilloried for doing so, as they can then be seen as being soft on defense. Republicans are thought to be militaristic, so they can cut the budget without getting attacked for it.

[sapator]

You'll have to work on your insults, that one wasn't up to your usual standards. It took too long to get going.

The US is one of the leading sellers of weapons. I'm not thrilled about that, but I recognize it is so.

Of course, Israel has always been a major customer. So, perhaps sending the carrier group is akin to sending a technician around to check out an on-site issue?

What insult of all? I'm insulting everyone as fast as I can, give me a break!

[TysonLPrice]

It didn't take the republicans long to blame Biden:

Chris Christie
“This terrorism is funded by Biden’s idiotic release of $6 billion to the Iranians,” Christie said."

Former Vice President Mike Pence said the administration’s policies — which he described as Biden’s “kowtowing” — have “set the conditions” for the Hamas attacks.

Former United Nations Ambassador Nikki Haley knocked Blinken as “irresponsible” for his insistence that “the $6 billion doesn’t weigh in here,” appearing on-air Sunday after Blinken on “Meet the Press.”

South Carolina Sen. Tim Scott said of the attacks that “this is the Biden $6 billion ransom payment at work.”

North Dakota Gov. Doug Burgum stressed that the U.S. “must remember who pays for this terrorism: Iran. An Iran that is billions of dollars wealthier thanks to Joe Biden.”

Iran hasn't received any of that money yet and it will only be released for humanitarian aid by an outside agency. The republican's rebuke to that is the money is "fungible". Looks like someone taught them a new word.

[dday9]

It didn't take the republicans long to blame Biden

No surprise there. Even if Biden gave Israel $12 billion in return, the Republicans would be saying that the democrats aren't doing enough.

The republicans rebuke to that is the money is "fungible". Looks like someone taught them a new word.

Fungibility popped up when Rand Paul exposed Fauci during questioning about the gain of function research, it's been used a lot since then.

[TysonLPrice]

Rand Paul exposed Fauci

I'd say Rand Paul exposed himself as a moron. Ever since he was rebuked by Fauci for the unsubstantiated claims in the hearings he has been after him. He tried to level perjury charges, reduce his pay, proposed some law about him, is constantly on FOX attacking him, and just came out with a book and Fauci is on the cover. He is like a little brat kid that got humiliated and cannot let it go.

[wes4dbt]

Ty,

I didn't because I think it is just a matter of time before it devolves and is locked.

Let's hope so.
Killing women and children is not my cup of tea.

Says the person who started the thread. lol

[wes4dbt]

It didn't take the republicans long to blame Biden:

Chris Christie
“This terrorism is funded by Biden’s idiotic release of $6 billion to the Iranians,” Christie said."

Former Vice President Mike Pence said the administration’s policies — which he described as Biden’s “kowtowing” — have “set the conditions” for the Hamas attacks.

Former United Nations Ambassador Nikki Haley knocked Blinken as “irresponsible” for his insistence that “the $6 billion doesn’t weigh in here,” appearing on-air Sunday after Blinken on “Meet the Press.”

South Carolina Sen. Tim Scott said of the attacks that “this is the Biden $6 billion ransom payment at work.”

North Dakota Gov. Doug Burgum stressed that the U.S. “must remember who pays for this terrorism: Iran. An Iran that is billions of dollars wealthier thanks to Joe Biden.”

Iran hasn't received any of that money yet and it will only be released for humanitarian aid by an outside agency. The republican's rebuke to that is the money is "fungible". Looks like someone taught them a new word.

A lot of other republicans jumped on that band wagon. I agree with dday, it's not surprising and that's depressing. US politics is so slimy.

[sapator]

Ty,




Says the person who started the thread. lol

Ye, I wanted the title to be Woman and Children dead, yahoooo get you wild stuff . I hope it was a joke.

[dday9]

I'd say Rand Paul exposed himself as a moron. Ever since he was rebuked by Fauci for the unsubstantiated claims in the hearings he has been after him. He tried to level perjury charges, reduce his pay, proposed some law about him, is constantly on FOX attacking him, and just came out with a book and Fauci is on the cover. He is like a little brat kid that got humiliated and cannot let it go.

I am about as surprised by your take as I am about the US' involvement in this Israeli conflict.

[Shaggy Hiker]

What insult of all? I'm insulting everyone as fast as I can, give me a break!

No! Insult faster!!

[sapator]

I...
Am....
By nature....
Reactive on what they oppose to me.
So....I'm....Insulting slowerrr......(zzzzzzz) and , insulting worse....
Politicians, born out of rainbows and kitties , good people!

[TysonLPrice]

This doesn't seem helpful to me....

Israel cut off electricity supply to Gaza on Monday as part of what it called a “total siege” in response to a mass infiltration by Hamas fighters into southern Israel on Saturday. The Israeli blockade of the occupied Gaza Strip, in its current form, has been in place since June 2007.12 hours ago

https://www.google.com/search?q=all+...gs_ivs=1#tts=0

Paybacks a b***h but revenge is a you know what.

Israel pounds Gaza neighborhoods, as residents scramble for safety:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel...le-for-safety/

There are always at least two people()s) in an argument, it takes two to tango. An argument can be made that people are striking back at apartheid.

And the argument about who was first in "ancient" times....lets give it to the Canaanites and move on.

[TysonLPrice]

This kind of makes me wonder who really started it:

In April 1948, more than 100 Palestinian men, women and children were killed in the village of Deir Yassin on the outskirts of Jerusalem.
That set the tone for the rest of the operation, and from 1947 to 1949, more than 500 Palestinian villages, towns and cities were destroyed in what Palestinians refer to as the Nakba, or “catastrophe” in Arabic.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/...a-simple-guide

With the electricity cut off hospitals are turning in to morgues. But I guess they deserve that for not voting Hamas out. I'm actually hearing "pundits" saying that.

[Shaggy Hiker]

I don't know whether they could vote out Hamas. Did they get elected? Perhaps they did, but if so, the alternative was the PLA, which was once a representative organization, if nothing else. Now it's garbage. The frustration level among the Palestinians seemed likely to boil over. The latest Israeli government couldn't have helped any. Neither side seemed to want to work anything out. It's unlikely that the people on either side felt that way.

[TysonLPrice]

I don't know whether they could vote out Hamas. Did they get elected? Perhaps they did, but if so, the alternative was the PLA, which was once a representative organization, if nothing else. Now it's garbage. The frustration level among the Palestinians seemed likely to boil over. The latest Israeli government couldn't have helped any. Neither side seemed to want to work anything out. It's unlikely that the people on either side felt that way.

I beleive they were elected but I was relying on memory. I found this:

Hamas won 2006 parliamentary elections elections and in 2007 violently seized control of the Gaza Strip from the internationally recognized Palestinian Authority.

I don't think they even have elections now. I'm starting to dig in a little to get up to date.