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Thread: Israel?

  1. #361
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    Re: Israel?

    As you wish but one piece of advice. When asking someone to "let it go" it's a bad idea to insult them:-
    Like I said, I've never used to term "virtue signaling" . I didn't say you haven't done it. lol
    That makes you look disingenuous, at best. lol.
    Yeah, it's easy to spot when you see someone else do it.

    But it was a sincere offer. But I'm retired with lots of spare time to continue rewording the same concept over and over. So either way works for me.

    Because the people actually responsible for this have a vested interest in ongoing conflict. If peace breaks out Hamas cease to have a purpose and therefore cease exist and Netanyahu faces an election that he will almost certainly lose and he will very likely face corruption charges. This conflict is not about Israelis and Palestinians. It's not even about Jews and Muslims. It's about people who have power and are willing to throw people who don't have power under the wheels to hold on to that power.
    And like I keep saying, Israelis are responsible for Netanyahu having this power. This was their choice, this is who they wanted. Netanyahu is not know for wanting peace. Responsibility doesn't stop at Netanyahu.
    Last edited by wes4dbt; Jul 14th, 2024 at 03:01 PM.

  2. #362
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Israel?

    Netanyahu doesn't want peace, but until October, he didn't have war. He had a simmering, seemingly-manageable, conflict. Still, he got elected by people who didn't want peace, either, so I'd agree with you that they didn't elect him for peace. They DID think they could win on the cheap, though. I think a lot of people might have woken up to the idea that winning may not even be possible, and certainly won't be so cheap. That's political change.
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  3. #363
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    Re: Israel?

    They DID think they could win on the cheap, though. I think a lot of people might have woken up to the idea that winning may not even be possible, and certainly won't be so cheap. That's political change.
    That's probably some of that myopia you mentioned.

    One of the expenses is something you said earlier. It has cost them a lot of good will from the international community. Those probably aren't the exact words you used.

    I finally got curious enough to lookup Israel's election process. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_I...ative_election

    I don't like the part where they can extend their if there is a supermajority.

  4. #364
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
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    Re: Israel?

    If I was to say "Blacks have criminal tendencies" that would be construed as a racist statement due to the generalisation of blacks. It ascribes he properties of a subset to the whole both in terms of grammar and on how it's likely to received absent further clarification. I fail to see how your framing has been any different. Again, I don't think you're a racist or anti-Semite but I don't think you've considered the sensitivity around what you're saying. I'll leave it at that.

    Netanyahu is not know for wanting peace.
    Prior to 7 October he wasn't known for wanting war either. He didn't campaign on it and it has never been part of his rhetoric prior to Hamas's attack. I think if you want to ascribe responsibility for Israel's recent actions you have to, at the very least, establish that they were predictable. You simply haven't done that. (I actually think that you need to go further and establish that they not only predicted it but desired it - when casting our vote we're selecting from a smorgasbord board of positions and we quietly ignore the ones that don't motivate us one way or the other.)

    What was predictable was that he would further expand illegal settlements and, subject to my disagreement with your generalisations, I do agree that you can hold the electorate responsible for that.




    As for support for the conflict, I think that's a different question. The figures I found were somewhat outdated, less than reliable and indicated that support had been declining since. You seem to have taken that as a current figure and run with it which could be misleading. It wouldn't surprise me if it was still substantial, though, and likely better than half.

    But I think you also need to consider that Israel has been the subject of the most traumatic terrorist attack since 9/11 (and it was every bit the equal of that). Think back to the US reaction to that event. How many people did you hear saying "you know what, I think we should stop and consider the impact of our response on the average Afghani citizen"? I'm willing to bet it wasn't many.

    The reason is simple human nature. I like to think of myself as a fairly passive guy but if I was the father of the girl who was raped and murdered by 5 men at the music festival, who filmed it and posted back to her own social media account to make sure her friends and family knew what had been done, if you put a button in front of me and send "press this, it'll fire a rocket that will kill the guys who did it" I cannot honestly tell you that I wouldn't press it or that I would stop to consider whether it really was killing the actual people involved or just a proxy for them. From my own position in leafy Bristol I would (and do) reach the judgement that pressing the button was morally wrong but only because I have the luxury of distance. I don't feel a need to set a standard of reasonableness for the average Israeli that I wouldn't assign to the average American (or Brit for that matter).

    I think myopia's a pretty good word for that. I think we can all be morally blinded by grief, fear and anger very, very easily. It is the job of our leaders to remain clear sighted.



    he got elected by people who didn't want peace
    It depends on what you mean but I think I disagree with the framing. I suspect mostly they voted for a status quo that saw an ongoing repression of a group that they didn't think much about and which didn't involve atrocities on their doorstep. From their perspective that was peace.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Jul 15th, 2024 at 01:58 PM.
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  5. #365
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    Re: Israel?

    It seems business as usually for the Israelis in Gaza. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle...ah-2024-07-17/

    Though they might have woke up to the fact that winning may not be possible and definitely not cheap, it doesn't seem to have motivated them to change their tactics.

    Was curious what the Israeli people were hearing about the war. https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-in...survival-mode/

    I don't know anything about The Times of Israel, so this might have or not have a lot of bias. One thing that struck me was that most of the information was just repeating what the IDF says about the war.

    Which isn't surprising but I still think that the average Israeli knows that whether Hamas is destroyed or not, it wont lead to peace. Why would it, never has. But maybe the temporary peace while Hamas regroups or some other anti Israel group is formed is a win for them.

  6. #366
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Israel?

    Yeah, the latest polls I've seen show support for the war still well over 50% in Israel. What I don't know is what "latest" means for those polls. I read it yesterday, but the poll could be six months old for all I know.
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  7. #367
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    Re: Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Yeah, the latest polls I've seen show support for the war still well over 50% in Israel. What I don't know is what "latest" means for those polls. I read it yesterday, but the poll could be six months old for all I know.
    I did some some searching and couldn't find any significant protests in recent news. Except for the families of the hostages and Muslims. I'm sure there's probably some, just not making the news. Nothing that would indicate the majority are pushing back against the actions in Gaza.

    Tried watching a couple of news videos of protests from from the region but they weren't speaking English. Go figure. lol

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