Wagner boss?

[wes4dbt]

I've been noticing for a while now that the head of Wagner group keeps criticizing the Russian government. It seems strange this has been tolerated. What I'm I missing?

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/...w-drone-attack

[sapator]

Oh there is a coup on in the making to overthrow Putin. :P

[TysonLPrice]

It didn't read like he was attacking Putin all that directly. Maybe Putin is tolerating it to let other people take the blame down the road.

[FunkyDexter]

It didn't read like he was attacking Putin all that directly

Yeah, I think that's your answer. He's not criticising Putin, he's criticising the other military leaders.

Although some of his more recent statements can be read as attacking Putin. If you combine that with his withdrawal from Bakhmut (effectively putting his own private army between the Russian army and Moscow)... you could read a potential coup into that if stared hard enough.

[NeedSomeAnswers]

I've been noticing for a while now that the head of Wagner group keeps criticizing the Russian government. It seems strange this has been tolerated. What I'm I missing?

From what I have read he does this to try and put pressure on the Russian Generals for equipment and munitions for his Wagner group, and send a message direct to Putin, as corruption in the Russian military has often meant money meant for that disappears. There is probably more to it as well but thats what I have read.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Probably just jockeying for position. Putin is old, and rumors of his declining health have been rampant for some time. It may just be that people are positioning themselves for the battle to come.

[dilettante]

Things are probably more complex than that.

We even see it here in the US. Just within the Democrats there are 3 major factions jockeying for power and position. The Republicans have at least 2 themselves. Each has its own cabals of allies within the military, Wall Street, Silicon Valley, etc.

Russia isn't as "big" in many ways, but there is little reason to see it as a monolith as opposed to a North Korea, China, or Ukraine.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Sure, but I'm not sure that it's really more complex. After all, "jockeying for position" is a simple label that covers a myriad of activities. How many factions? What are they? What alliances, rivalries, and relative abilities does each possess? Probably beyond anybody's comprehension, and certainly well beyond what I know.

[TysonLPrice]

Sure, but I'm not sure that it's really more complex. After all, "jockeying for position" is a simple label that covers a myriad of activities. How many factions? What are they? What alliances, rivalries, and relative abilities does each possess? Probably beyond anybody's comprehension, and certainly well beyond what I know.

I'm sure a video is coming from dil...

[Shaggy Hiker]

I've seen some. Everybody is speculating, of course. Russia has never been very transparent when it comes to leadership issues. Heck, the Soviets blundered into Afghanistan because people were guessing at what a senile Brezhnev meant with some random statement.

Big things come from poor understandings.

[wes4dbt]

This Wagner group must have a fair amount of power. Wonder how badly the Russian military need them.

[wes4dbt]

I just saw an interview with a professor that specialize in the Russian situation and his view was that the Wagner boss is sort of channeling what Putin would like to say but can't because of his political situation. Thought that was an interesting view.

He also talked about the long history of atrocities by the Wagner group. Especially Mali. Seems the Wagner group is not to picky on who the employ.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/wagner-gr...154938520.html

[sapator]

Well you sorta kinda expect those things when you go on paramilitary aid.
KPF in Afghanistan trained by CIA did atrocities https://warroom.armywarcollege.edu/articles/kpf/
Also US trained Osama. Ukraine has Azov. So you go paramil you get issues. Not go paramil you have issues of close to your families deaths.
I wonder what would have happened if US did the proxy thing is Vietnam with paramil troops only, like he does now.

[TysonLPrice]

I wonder what would have happened if US did the proxy thing is Vietnam with paramil troops only, like he does now.

We used them in Afghanistan...what happened?

https://inkstickmedia.com/the-us-clo...n-afghanistan/

[sapator]

Well it was another kinda war.
Also take in consideration the huge protests for Vietnam (the haven't yet passed the "we support your war against terror", theme) and that one war was on a (welcome to the) jungle , the other was on rocks and dirt.
Ah and also consider that there was a predator loose back then (another tree infested part but I don't care. Also cut all tree make wind turbines!Yo!).

[Niya]

It seems strange this has been tolerated. What I'm I missing?

Russia is not ruled by liberals.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Russia is not ruled by liberals.

That's why it's strange.

[Niya]

That's why it's strange.

No it's not. There is no group on Earth more intolerant and authoritarian than liberals.

[vbrad]

No it's not. There is no group on Earth more intolerant and authoritarian than liberals.

Most humans are like that by nature.
We adopt a view becaues it's fed to us by someone else we admire and seems sensible and are thereafter invested in it. We're in that camp.
Thereafter we view any attack on its verity as an attack on us by self-evidently bad or stupid people.
Those people must be stopped from spreading their lies, so we deride and cancel them.

[TysonLPrice]

Most humans are like that by nature.
We adopt a view becaues it's fed to us by someone else we admire and seems sensible and are thereafter invested in it. We're in that camp.
Thereafter we view any attack on its verity as an attack on us by self-evidently bad or stupid people.
Those people must be stopped from spreading their lies, so we deride and cancel them.

Just ask the Neanderthals...oh that's right. You can't.

[sapator]

Why not?
Ask away please!

[Shaggy Hiker]

No it's not. There is no group on Earth more intolerant and authoritarian than liberals.

Except conservatives.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Why not?
Ask away please!

Gee, and all this time I thought you were Greek.

[sapator]

Greek and Geek...OuGa BouGa!

[FunkyDexter]

There is no group on Earth more intolerant and authoritarian than liberals.

You evidently find their intolerance of your intolerance intolerable.

[wes4dbt]

You evidently find their intolerance of your intolerance intolerable.

lol

Funny and true, Nice.

[dilettante]

Mildest article I could find on the topic:

Why Liberals Aren’t as Tolerant as They Think

These findings confirm that conservatives, liberals, the religious and the nonreligious are each prejudiced against those with opposing views. But surprisingly, each group is about equally prejudiced. While liberals might like to think of themselves as more open-minded, they are no more tolerant of people unlike them than their conservative counterparts are.

Funny that the religious folks that tend to lean conservative are far less likely to believe they walk on water.

[wes4dbt]

I wouldn't put up to much fuss over all these groups being intolerant. But what types of behavior is the focus of their intolerance? I'd say that's the defining difference.

[dilettante]

So it is like wanting neighbors to respect your high board fence though you walk your dog down the road to crap in their yards.

Kind of weird really. At one time even a 4 foot chain link fence required a permit here. Nobody ever had these high board fences. Now they have become far more common and in newer subdivisions they're almost the rule.

A corner house at the end of the block never had one until some new people bought in. The older couple across the street from me were born in India, and their reaction was "Oh crap, here come the California Riche." They tell me that's a counterpart of "ghetto rich" as seen in things like chandeliers mounted on the Cadillac fenders in "Escape From New York."

[Shaggy Hiker]

Virtually every fringe view has been in power somewhere at some time. Of course, that means 'fringe' is contextual, since it depends on the time and place. Everybody is intolerant of beliefs that deviate sufficiently far from theirs.

I heard something interesting that hadn't quite sunk in, before: In Romeo and Juliet, we don't know how old Romeo is, since it is never mentioned. Juliet is 13.

At the time, that wasn't a concern. It would be now, though.

[dilettante]

Reminds me of how younger people freak out about things we once just laughed at. I'm thinking of Alex Louis Armstrong tearing off his shirt so often around kids in the two Fullmetal Alchemist anime series.

"Projection" is a really good word. People really do telegraph their own issues.

[Shaggy Hiker]

How the heck did you know about any part of that last post? I've never heard of Alex Louis Armstrong, never heard about Fullmetal Alchemist, and barely heard about anime, let alone any controversy.

[Niya]

How the heck did you know about any part of that last post?

If you haven't seen Fullmetal Alchemist, I dare say you haven't lived a full life

I'm thinking of Alex Louis Armstrong tearing off his shirt so often around kids in the two Fullmetal Alchemist anime series.

This might be more of a cultural thing than a generational thing. The Japanese seem to have less hang-ups about things like that than western audiences.

[dilettante]

Next you'll wonder when I mention Cowboy Bebop.

[Niya]

Or Death Note.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Next you'll wonder when I mention Cowboy Bebop.

You're certainly right about that. Pretty fly, for a white guy.

[dilettante]

This might be more of a cultural thing than a generational thing. The Japanese seem to have less hang-ups about things like that than western audiences.

Maybe.

But it feels like a take on "bodybuilder culture" in the west. One more way to paint unique characters. We only really see it in Armstrong, aside from a few interactions with Sig Curtis:

The two have a large respect for each other and become close friends once seeing the other as having perfectly "manly" bodies and attitudes. The two only meet each other in major confrontations twice in the manga, but are believed to be close friends afterwards and various art depicts them flexing their muscles in the faces of many as Armstrong often does.

Yes, this is meant as comic relief within the storytelling. It was a way of fleshing out characters, so to speak.

All of that before you even consider Alex's relationship with his domineering sister.

[wes4dbt]

Well, this is getting interesting. This guy might have went to far this time.

https://news.yahoo.com/wagner-chief-...195459412.html

Though I noticed he didn't say anything bad about Putin.

[TysonLPrice]

Might be getting worse for him:

Wagner mercenary boss faces arrest over ‘incitement to armed rebellion’

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...ssia-military/

[wes4dbt]

Like I said, it's getting interesting. lol

Wonder if he'll go peacefully. Doesn't sound like it but talk is cheap.