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Thread: Why is this front news anymore?

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    Why is this front news anymore?

    https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/27/us/co...see/index.html

    It is well known this is an American day to day occurrence. I think there are more car accidents deaths than this. Get it off the front page...I'm tired of it. Train wrecks are the vogue these days.
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    Re: Why is this front news anymore?

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/27/us/co...see/index.html

    It is well known this is an American day to day occurrence. I think there are more car accidents deaths than this. Get it off the front page...I'm tired of it. Train wrecks are the vogue these days.
    I commented on this in Post Race.

    I have mixed feeling about these shootings being on the front page. On one side the exposure might help promote change. On the the other side I worry it promotes more occurrances because these people might want this type of attention.

    I don't know if there's ever been any research done on this subject. Probably should be.

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    Re: Why is this front news anymore?

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/27/us/co...see/index.html

    It is well known this is an American day to day occurrence. I think there are more car accidents deaths than this. Get it off the front page...I'm tired of it. Train wrecks are the vogue these days.
    I wouldn't call it a day to day occurrence.
    Shooting kids in an elementary school is rarer than that. The article itself says it was the worse school shooting in a year, so a bit more than a day, or week or even a month.

    On the other hand, it is the 19th school shooting this year, so less than three months, and that is a lot in my opinion. But, shouldn't that be considered outrageous, rather than ignored or trivialized.
    Last edited by passel; Mar 27th, 2023 at 08:43 PM.
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    Re: Why is this front news anymore?

    How many mass shootings have been caused by ‘fame-seeking’ shootings?

    The authors identified 45 cases out of the 308 incidents of mass shootings between 1996 and 2018 that they categorized as “fame-seeking.” Five of the ten most widely covered incidents since the 1999 Columbine High School shooting were perpetrated by individuals who wanted media attention, they found.
    One thing I noticed yesterday while watching the news - they mostly mentioned Six Dead which didn't include the shooter.... One reported mentioned how he wasn't going to even mention the shooters name.
    Wi-fi went down for five minutes, so I had to talk to my family....They seem like nice people.

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    Re: Why is this front news anymore?

    rather than ignored or trivialized.
    I'm assuming that Tyson is being sarcastic because he's been quite vocal on this topic in the past and seems to favour sensible controls on firearms. I think he's highlighting the emotional exhaustion. It does feel like it's got to the point where a school shooting in the US is... <shrug>meh. That's a truly frightening state of affairs and I don't know what you do about it. The continuous reporting does tend to become white noise but failing to report on it means you've given up even pretending to care.

    On the fame seeking, I know there's a lot of talk over here every time there's a murder or similar to not mention the killers name for exactly this reason. I honestly don't know how effective it would be but I don't feel it's ever really been tried because we always want the gory details about their disturbed back story so that's what the media gives us.

    I've said before that I do not believe US gun laws are the root of this problem (I believe the cause is cultural) and I still stand by that. But I do think more rigorous laws offer a quick path to at least reducing the problem while the more complex cultural causes can be addressed. I think the situation in the US is beyond crisis now and it's trending rapidly in the wrong direction. You never heard about school shooting before Columbine (1999) and now, less than 25 years later... <shrug>meh.
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    Re: Why is this front news anymore?

    Good old GUN LAWS.

    In Texas, I had to shoot a full box of 50 rounds for my Conceal Carry License. I think we had to get at least 400 out of 500 points to pass the shooting test. SCARY PART - a third of my classmates couldn't pass.

    In Florida, I only had to convince the instructor that I was proficient with a hand gun. I and two more classmates passed the test without going to the gun range. We still had to do a four hour class.

    NOW, our STUPID Governor wants to do away with testing and let everyone conceal carry.

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    Re: Why is this front news anymore?

    I've said before that I do not believe US gun laws are the root of this problem
    I think your being kind there FD, its seems pretty obvious from outside that the lack of Gun Laws contributes significantly to the spread of guns to people who shouldn't have them.
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    Re: Why is this front news anymore?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve R Jones View Post
    Good old GUN LAWS.

    In Texas, I had to shoot a full box of 50 rounds for my Conceal Carry License. I think we had to get at least 400 out of 500 points to pass the shooting test. SCARY PART - a third of my classmates couldn't pass.

    In Florida, I only had to convince the instructor that I was proficient with a hand gun. I and two more classmates passed the test without going to the gun range. We still had to do a four hour class.

    NOW, our STUPID Governor wants to do away with testing and let everyone conceal carry.
    The law in Ohio is if you are twenty-one or older and can legally by a gun you can carry it concealed.
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    Re: Why is this front news anymore?

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    I'm assuming that Tyson is being sarcastic because he's been quite vocal on this topic in the past and seems to favour sensible controls on firearms. I think he's highlighting the emotional exhaustion. It does feel like it's got to the point where a school shooting in the US is... <shrug>meh. That's a truly frightening state of affairs and I don't know what you do about it. The continuous reporting does tend to become white noise but failing to report on it means you've given up even pretending to care.

    On the fame seeking, I know there's a lot of talk over here every time there's a murder or similar to not mention the killers name for exactly this reason. I honestly don't know how effective it would be but I don't feel it's ever really been tried because we always want the gory details about their disturbed back story so that's what the media gives us.

    I've said before that I do not believe US gun laws are the root of this problem (I believe the cause is cultural) and I still stand by that. But I do think more rigorous laws offer a quick path to at least reducing the problem while the more complex cultural causes can be addressed. I think the situation in the US is beyond crisis now and it's trending rapidly in the wrong direction. You never heard about school shooting before Columbine (1999) and now, less than 25 years later... <shrug>meh.
    Very sarcastic...I've been on both sides. When I moved to Ohio I owned thirty-two guns. Several assault style weapons, a fully automatic Thompson sub machine gun, and a wide variety of hand guns. Now I own a couple handguns and a .22 rifle. I'm a firm believer in owning guns for home protection. I just don't see a need to have an assault weapon. I can even understand someone saying it is their business if they want one. As a society though I think we should ban the assault rifles. We regulate so many things for societal safety but the gun lobby won't allow anything. They even prevented for many years even studying the effects on society.
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    Re: Why is this front news anymore?

    Gun collectors beware!
    OK I own close to 350 CD's from AC/DC so I get the collecting frenzy...And I hope it's just that..A collecting frenzy.
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    Re: Why is this front news anymore?

    Well at least we have strong, caring leadership...



    I guess he knows he is back from China, er, Canada.

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    Re: Why is this front news anymore?

    I think your being kind there FD
    Note that I did say it's not the root of the problem. There are other countries that have similarly relaxed gun laws (though not the same levels of ownership) which don't have anything like the problems that the US does. That said, I really don't want to minimise the compounding effects that gun ownership has when these incidents occur. The relaxed laws make it much less likely that a potential incident can be prevented and make the incident massively more lethal when it occurs.

    Well at least we have strong, caring leadership...
    You might want to check the background at 0:51. It's not the address they're declaring it is and had nothing to do with the incident in Mississippi. He's addressing a business conference. This is typical misrepresentation by the Murdoch media.
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    Re: Why is this front news anymore?

    You might want to check the background at 0:51. It's not the address they're declaring it is and had nothing to do with the incident in Mississippi. He's addressing a business conference. This is typical misrepresentation by the Murdoch media.
    That reminded me of something that made me chuckle today...Trump is on the campaign trial and is constantly remarking how he received more votes than any other sitting President in the election. What he doesn't mention is the guy that won the election him got even more. "Sitting" is the operative word.
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    Re: Why is this front news anymore?

    Quote Originally Posted by sapator View Post
    Gun collectors beware!
    OK I own close to 350 CD's from AC/DC so I get the collecting frenzy...And I hope it's just that..A collecting frenzy.
    350 CD's from AC/DC? It's a good band, but they never put out anywhere CLOSE to that many, so you must have numerous duplicates.

    The first part is admitting you have a problem...
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    Re: Why is this front news anymore?

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    Trump is on the campaign trial
    Had to preserve that one
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    Re: Why is this front news anymore?

    In the US, you have to show minimal proficiency to drive a car. You have to demonstrate much greater proficiency to drive large trucks. To operate a ship you have to have a lot of training AND experience (though to operate a small craft you don't need to demonstrate anything). To get a hunting license, you have to have taken a fairly extensive hunter safety course, which in this state covers gun safety, ethics, and other things. But if you want to buy a gun that you have only for shooting people and possibly targets...you don't need anything.

    If you want to kill an animal for food (even without a gun), you have to demonstrate greater proficiency than you do for driving a car. If you want a gun to shoot a human, then there are no restrictions so long as you have not been previously convicted of a felony.
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    Re: Why is this front news anymore?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    350 CD's from AC/DC? It's a good band, but they never put out anywhere CLOSE to that many, so you must have numerous duplicates.

    The first part is admitting you have a problem...
    Good one.
    I'm of the few with one of the biggest - rarest collection on AC/DC individual CD's , I might have 3-4 duplicates tho that's why I said close but I might have more than 350 since I got some the last few months.
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    Re: Why is this front news anymore?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Had to preserve that one
    I missed that the first read
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    Re: Why is this front news anymore?

    Note that I did say it's not the root of the problem. There are other countries that have similarly relaxed gun laws (though not the same levels of ownership) which don't have anything like the problems that the US does. That said, I really don't want to minimise the compounding effects that gun ownership has when these incidents occur. The relaxed laws make it much less likely that a potential incident can be prevented and make the incident massively more lethal when it occurs.
    I'd say that's pretty close to my opinion. Reducing the amount of victims seems so easily achievable. But there is something about us that prevents us from making any progress. It would be easy to blame it all on the gun lobby but I think there's more to it.

    You might want to check the background at 0:51. It's not the address they're declaring it is and had nothing to do with the incident in Mississippi. He's addressing a business conference. This is typical misrepresentation by the Murdoch media.
    Amazing how eager people are to believe misinformation. I watched a documentary a while back about social media. One scary thing they said was, misinformation was retweeted at a rate 7 times faster(actually it might have been 7 times MORE, I can't remember for sure) than the truth. If thats true then ??????
    Last edited by wes4dbt; Mar 28th, 2023 at 01:40 PM.

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    Re: Why is this front news anymore?

    Yeah, there have been a few studies of the rate of perpetuation of misinformation versus truth. It's one of those rare cases in sociology where you can perform a controlled study, as you can deliberately release both and measure the spread of each.

    I've never heard of one of those studies that didn't show that misinformation doesn't spread FAR faster than truth. It can probably be enhanced by tweaking the emotional content of the information. I'd be surprised if somebody hasn't already performed such a study, though I have yet to hear of one.
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    Re: Why is this front news anymore?

    I worry about people here who claim to be in favor of gun control while bragging about the ridiculous number of weapons they already have cached around the house, in their cars, etc.

    Shouldn't they be among the first to turn themselves in?

    The kind of non-sequitur "2 + 2 = strawberry pie" thinking expressed here so often might be part of why these shootings occur so often. I find the weirdest part to be the way some of us are being treated as if WE are the problem when we are not the ones carrying a duffle full of firearms.

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    Re: Why is this front news anymore?

    Audrey was geared to go... He/she seems to be making a fashion statement.

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    Re: Why is this front news anymore?

    I worry about people here who claim to be in favor of gun control while bragging about the ridiculous number of weapons they already have cached around the house, in their cars, etc
    I mostly agree but with a bit of added nuance. I actually don't have a problem with someone owning guns and, as far as I'm concerned, they might as well own an arsenal. For me it's about why they want to own them.

    I can get behind a collector or someone who just thinks they're "cool" (can't relate to it myself but I don't see it as much different to people who collect sports cars or samurai swords). I can get behind people who want to hunt (again, not for me... but you do you). I can certainly get behind people in rural communities wo want them for vermin control etc. where it's basically a tool like any other.

    There are two reasons I hear touted, though, that I just don't get. One is the "defence" argument, whether it's home or personal. I don't necessarily condemn this argument but I do struggle to rationalise it. I honestly can't perceive of a situation where it comes up in real life. I can see the theoreticals, it's just that they simply never happen in my experience or the experience of anyone I know. Is crime really so bad over there that this is a real world concern for you?

    The second reason, which I don't understand and do condemn is the "ability to overthrow a tyrannical government" argument. This is just straight up stoopid!. 1. it's literally the definition of treason and a thoroughly anti-democratic take and 2. no amount of AKs and bump stock is going to help you against a government that comes equipped with tanks, fighter jets and long range artillery; you're lying to yourself.
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    Re: Why is this front news anymore?

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    I worry about people here who claim to be in favor of gun control while bragging about the ridiculous number of weapons they already have cached around the house, in their cars, etc.

    Shouldn't they be among the first to turn themselves in?

    The kind of non-sequitur "2 + 2 = strawberry pie" thinking expressed here so often might be part of why these shootings occur so often. I find the weirdest part to be the way some of us are being treated as if WE are the problem when we are not the ones carrying a duffle full of firearms.
    Non-sequitur is this post. All or none or you are a hypocrite? There is no balance...you are either for or against? You should read what you type before you hit "Post Quick Reply". Or was this some not so subtle dig?
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    Re: Why is this front news anymore?

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    I mostly agree but with a bit of added nuance. I actually don't have a problem with someone owning guns and, as far as I'm concerned, they might as well own an arsenal. For me it's about why they want to own them.

    I can get behind a collector or someone who just thinks they're "cool" (can't relate to it myself but I don't see it as much different to people who collect sports cars or samurai swords). I can get behind people who want to hunt (again, not for me... but you do you). I can certainly get behind people in rural communities wo want them for vermin control etc. where it's basically a tool like any other.

    There are two reasons I hear touted, though, that I just don't get. One is the "defence" argument, whether it's home or personal. I don't necessarily condemn this argument but I do struggle to rationalise it. I honestly can't perceive of a situation where it comes up in real life. I can see the theoreticals, it's just that they simply never happen in my experience or the experience of anyone I know. Is crime really so bad over there that this is a real world concern for you?

    The second reason, which I don't understand and do condemn is the "ability to overthrow a tyrannical government" argument. This is just straight up stoopid!. 1. it's literally the definition of treason and a thoroughly anti-democratic take and 2. no amount of AKs and bump stock is going to help you against a government that comes equipped with tanks, fighter jets and long range artillery; you're lying to yourself.
    I'm elderly with a prosthetic leg. I'm very vulnerable alone in bed at night. I was in the military and received concealed weapon certification. I feel much more secure knowing I can defend myself against stronger attacker from a helpless position. To your point, in all the years I've carried I never came close to using one in self defense. But if it did arise I'd rather have one then my dck in my hand.
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    Re: Why is this front news anymore?

    I feel much more secure knowing I can defend myself against stronger attacker from a helpless position
    I get that and, like I said, I don't condemn the position. I just can't relate to it given the almost zero chance of it ever happening. To me it's kinda the equivalent of always carrying a spare pair of underpants... just in case.

    Edit>Thinking about it, that may be worth expanding on (the self defence bit...not the underpants). I can certainly envisage a situation in which I might be "attacked". In fact I've been mugged before now (though only once). But the impact to me is never going to be more than a lost wallet and watch. I couldn't justify shooting someone to prevent that. But I guess there may be a difference between the US and the UK on this, our muggers don't have guns.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Mar 29th, 2023 at 07:50 AM.
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    Re: Why is this front news anymore?

    I think it is forbid all guns VS allowing all guns.
    If you forbid you have an extremely higher rate of adolescence and more attacks not happening in schools VS getting shot by an illegal gun shooter.
    I think you should take one for the team and risk your life VS millions of other lives.
    The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one , unless you have pointy ears.
    So abandon guns to save millions and risk your death. It's fun!
    And carrying one gun = carrying a gun, it's not the quantity that matters.
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    Re: Why is this front news anymore?

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    I can get behind people who want to hunt
    That's always safer than getting in front of them.
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    Re: Why is this front news anymore?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    That's always safer than getting in front of them.
    Yep...just ask Harry Whittington.
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    Re: Why is this front news anymore?

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    I'm elderly with a prosthetic leg. I'm very vulnerable alone in bed at night. I was in the military and received concealed weapon certification. I feel much more secure knowing I can defend myself against stronger attacker from a helpless position. To your point, in all the years I've carried I never came close to using one in self defense. But if it did arise I'd rather have one then my dck in my hand.
    You're even more vulnerable if you are asleep.

    I'm a bit conflicted on this topic. Most of my friends are hunters, some of whom don't eat meat unless they've harvested it themselves, and some who are bow hunters (those who fall into both camps might as well be classified as vegetarians). I also know a gal who has a gun for self defense, and I rather like her.

    Still, the problem I have with the self defense argument is that it usually doesn't work. People have asked whether I carry a gun on my lengthy hiking trips, and I certainly don't. If an animal attacks you, it is very unlikely that you'll have time to draw a weapon, or that it will do you any good. There are cases where a gun helped in those cases, but far more where it didn't. My most dangerous encounter with a wild animal was with an overly amorous moose (I was NOT the object of his affections, but a rival for the cow he was after...it was quite a story). A gun wouldn't have made any difference, especially because I was sitting in a lake at the time.

    The basic problem is that the attacker ALWAYS has the initiative. After all, they know they are attacking before you know it. In this latest shooting, the police acted quite promptly, and shot the attacker dead in short order. The whole thing was reportedly only 15 minutes from first shots to last shots. That's as prompt a response as is reasonably possible, but six people died (seven if you count the shooter). No matter how you set it up, you are reacting to something, and by the time you react, at least some damage will have been done.
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    Re: Why is this front news anymore?

    The basic problem is that the attacker ALWAYS has the initiative. After all, they know they are attacking before you know it. In this latest shooting, the police acted quite promptly, and shot the attacker dead in short order. The whole thing was reportedly only 15 minutes from first shots to last shots. That's as prompt a response as is reasonably possible, but six people died (seven if you count the shooter). No matter how you set it up, you are reacting to something, and by the time you react, at least some damage will have been done.
    I'd add that the owner or a family/friend are more likely to get shot than an intruder. My cousin killed her brother, she was @ 10yrs old. The gun is also more likely to be stolen than used for self protection.

    That being said, I come from a life around guns. Got my first when I was 9. but I started drifting away from them the older I got. Though I still do have a .22 rifle buried somewhere in my closet that I haven't seen in 30yrs.

    Still I have to admit that once in a while when I'm laying in bed late at night and a strange noise startles me awake, I wish I still had my hand gun. A couple of times my reaction was to act like my son was in the other bedroom and yell "Steve get the gun!!!". lol

    At least I didn't start barking like a dog.

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    Re: Why is this front news anymore?

    I don't get the I don't want guns but I have them stashed or close by.
    IMO all jokes aside, either everyone could have one or no one (except police or protection services etc) can have one.
    The argument that some kind of physical misfortune will be equalized with a gun is wrong and I completely agree with Shaggy (OMG!) .
    We said this countless of times (with probably the exception of Swisserounees) when guns are allowed the death toll rises.
    So either be against guns and don't have a single one or be in favor and have them, don't use intermediate solutions.
    I don't like guns bu I have 22 stashed, an UZI, some bazookas , couple of grenades,land mines, electric whips, exploding pens a tank and an fully armed assault helicopter on the roof, just in case.
    ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ
    πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν·

  33. #33
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Why is this front news anymore?

    Land mines are particularly effective for deer hunting. For one thing, venison is best as burger or sausage, so a landmine gets you halfway there right from the start. It also makes it a LOT easier to haul out the animal, as it will be in smaller, more manageable, pieces. It's also the American way: You can sit in camp and drink beer while you wait for the sound to indicate success. Finally, it will keep others away from your hunting spot.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  34. #34
    King of sapila
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    Re: Why is this front news anymore?

    Haven't thought of that.
    I suggested something brilliant without knowing it. Isn't it how all the big inventions start?
    ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ
    πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν·

  35. #35
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    Re: Why is this front news anymore?

    MSU shooter motive hinted at in note: ‘They made me who I am today a killer’

    People driven mad by drum-beating narratives kill people.

  36. #36

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    Re: Why is this front news anymore?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    You're even more vulnerable if you are asleep.

    I'm a bit conflicted on this topic. Most of my friends are hunters, some of whom don't eat meat unless they've harvested it themselves, and some who are bow hunters (those who fall into both camps might as well be classified as vegetarians). I also know a gal who has a gun for self defense, and I rather like her.

    Still, the problem I have with the self defense argument is that it usually doesn't work. People have asked whether I carry a gun on my lengthy hiking trips, and I certainly don't. If an animal attacks you, it is very unlikely that you'll have time to draw a weapon, or that it will do you any good. There are cases where a gun helped in those cases, but far more where it didn't. My most dangerous encounter with a wild animal was with an overly amorous moose (I was NOT the object of his affections, but a rival for the cow he was after...it was quite a story). A gun wouldn't have made any difference, especially because I was sitting in a lake at the time.

    The basic problem is that the attacker ALWAYS has the initiative. After all, they know they are attacking before you know it. In this latest shooting, the police acted quite promptly, and shot the attacker dead in short order. The whole thing was reportedly only 15 minutes from first shots to last shots. That's as prompt a response as is reasonably possible, but six people died (seven if you count the shooter). No matter how you set it up, you are reacting to something, and by the time you react, at least some damage will have been done.
    I understand what you are saying but just brandishing a gun in a threating way can be a huge deterrent. It probably wouldn't work on a moose though.
    Please remember next time...elections matter!

  37. #37

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    Re: Why is this front news anymore?

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    I'd add that the owner or a family/friend are more likely to get shot than an intruder. My cousin killed her brother, she was @ 10yrs old. The gun is also more likely to be stolen than used for self protection.

    That being said, I come from a life around guns. Got my first when I was 9. but I started drifting away from them the older I got. Though I still do have a .22 rifle buried somewhere in my closet that I haven't seen in 30yrs.

    Still I have to admit that once in a while when I'm laying in bed late at night and a strange noise startles me awake, I wish I still had my hand gun. A couple of times my reaction was to act like my son was in the other bedroom and yell "Steve get the gun!!!". lol

    At least I didn't start barking like a dog.
    I don't usually carry one on me or in the car, which I legally can, but I do take it on road trips.
    Please remember next time...elections matter!

  38. #38

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    Re: Why is this front news anymore?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Land mines are particularly effective for deer hunting. For one thing, venison is best as burger or sausage, so a landmine gets you halfway there right from the start. It also makes it a LOT easier to haul out the animal, as it will be in smaller, more manageable, pieces. It's also the American way: You can sit in camp and drink beer while you wait for the sound to indicate success. Finally, it will keep others away from your hunting spot.
    What would be more effective for deer would be a bullet that goes fifty-five MPH and has headlights...
    Please remember next time...elections matter!

  39. #39

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    Re: Why is this front news anymore?

    Not directed at anyone but I can see there are probably more issues owning one then that rare event where it would save you. Kids getting them, stolen and on the streets, suicides in the spur of the moment, handling accidents, etc. All that considered I'd rather have one than not though.
    Last edited by TysonLPrice; Mar 31st, 2023 at 05:55 AM.
    Please remember next time...elections matter!

  40. #40
    Fanatic Member Peter Porter's Avatar
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    Re: Why is this front news anymore?

    This is why I love living in Germany. It's extremely hard to get a firearm, even if you're of sound mind. You have to be a politician, celebrity, or huge landowner to be able get a license for one.

    The worst that ever happened in my area was some crazy running around setting everyones stored firewood ablaze, and another who attacked a neighbor with an old sword.
    Last edited by Peter Porter; Mar 29th, 2023 at 08:57 PM.

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