Results 1 to 15 of 15

Thread: ECMA group for BASIC - who would you nominate?

  1. #1

    Thread Starter
    Frenzied Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Norfolk UK (inbred)
    Posts
    1,621

    ECMA group for BASIC - who would you nominate?

    IF we had a group to determine the future of BASIC, new keywords, functionality, direction such as that for javascript, ie. ECMA who would you nominate to be on that working group?

    See https://www.vbforums.com/showthread....=1#post5580704

    Chaps like Faf, LA Volpe, Elroy, Dil, Olaf, Wayne, Krool, Wqweto, Trick to name just a few, don't mean to be rude leaving anyone out...

    Those are not my own personal suggestions at this point, I just giving you some pointers as to the types of characters that might be useful in such a project. I don't suppose we need to ask the question as to whether they would be prepared to run in such a working committee. This is just an in-an-ideal-world who would you have determining the future of VB6? There are some names that used to appear in the VB forum in the deeper past. Some MS employees might be a suitable selection too, just for interest sake. Chaps like Bob Zale (RIP) from PowerBasic might have been interested too.

    We could have a list of who we might like to exclude - but I feel that might be a little cruel so let's not go there.

    If you feel like nominating anyone please feel free to do so and the reasoning why. Note this group is entirely fictional at this point.

    Let's use 2KAud's post as a point of reference:

    Note that there is an ISO standard for Basic (out of date!):
    https://www.iso.org/standard/18321.html

    There was an ISO working group for Basic (WG8 of SC22) but it has now been disbanded.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO/IEC_JTC_1/SC_22

    However, the concept is this: If TB/RadB and OlafBasic were to see completion and the full light of day then a future for VB may be assured. In that case wouldn't it be nice to take the reins before MS steps in to do so? Who would you have on that list and why?
    Last edited by yereverluvinuncleber; Oct 2nd, 2022 at 06:22 AM. Reason: Added links
    By the power invested in me, all the threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones - no arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign.

  2. #2

    Thread Starter
    Frenzied Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Norfolk UK (inbred)
    Posts
    1,621

    Re: ECMA group for BASIC - who would you nominate?

    I'll get the ball rolling then.

    Wayne Phillips of TwinBasic because he is making actual dynamic changes to the VisualBASIC 6 language to support more advanced functions required for a future TB.

    I previously suggested Olaf Schmidt as his knowledge of VB6 is probably second to none and he has already extended the functionality of VB6 through his RC5/6 libraries.

    So, on the list so far are Wayne and Olaf, please feel free to add your own suggestion.
    Last edited by yereverluvinuncleber; Oct 3rd, 2022 at 09:42 AM.
    By the power invested in me, all the threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones - no arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign.

  3. #3
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    2,201

    Re: ECMA group for BASIC - who would you nominate?

    This should probably be in the General Discussion/Chit-Chat sub-forum, and you should probably remove your "Niya and Olaf free zones" signature for this thread

    Personally, I would take a step back and ask "Should there be an Ecma(like) group for BASIC?". I'm not convinced that there should be - at least not yet. IMO BASIC is in a kind of weird state right now. It's "ancient" disregarded tech, that has historically been almost universally **** on by a majority of serious programmers. But I've noticed a bit of a shift in perception in the past couple of years. On some other forums/sites I visit, VB is more often discussed fondly than disparagingly. Granted that's likey through a nostalgic lens, but there are a lot of people who started with VB as kids that are now solid professional programmers that feel something is missing from the current language offerings, but that they got from VB. I think this is a unique time/opportunity for something like twinBasic to have a chance to flourish.

    Back to the point though - I think an Ecma-like governing/standards body would do more harm than good right now. We're firmly in a wild-west era of VB replacements, and I think we should leave things alone and "let the best man win". Once it is clear that there's a natural winner, then I can see the value in creating a standards body.

    But as a fun thought exercise, I'll play the game.

    I think a standards body will be as much political as it is technical. In fact, as much as it bothers me, it might even be 80% political vs. 20% technical (or worse). IMO that automatically eliminates the less tactful/more confrontational personalities here. That said, it would be awful to just have a bunch of political types run (ruin?) everything by playing politics all the time. I'm just thinking out loud, but I could imagine a 2-layer system. A "technical" layer comprised of all the super-knowledgeable, highly opinionated, often tactless members who would really debate the technical issues. The "political" or "executive" layer would be much smaller, and exist only to ratify unanimous recommendations from the technical layer, or to vote on (and ratify the democratic winner) contentious issues that have been floated by the technical layer.

    I can already see 2 issues with the 2 layer system though:

    1) What happens if the tech layer stalls, and fails to deliver any recommendations or stalemates to the executive layer? Can/Should the executive layer be able to force action?
    2) I initially thought the tech layer should be able to recommend "laws" that would have to be ratified by the executive if there was unanimous support from the tech level, but what if the tech level gets "corrupted" and unanimously recommends that something destructive must be ratified (for example, "all code lines must start with the keyword SPAGHETTI"). What powers (if any) should the executive have to veto?

    Anyway, just thinking out loud...

  4. #4
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    23,812

    Re: ECMA group for BASIC - who would you nominate?

    Standards are not about implementations aside from how well different implementations adhere to the standards.

  5. #5
    Fanatic Member 2kaud's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    England
    Posts
    803

    Re: ECMA group for BASIC - who would you nominate?

    Always remember the behind-the-scenes wrangling with the Fortran standard between Fortran 77 and Fortran 90 - 13 years for a new standard! This nearly destroyed Fortran then as a major language! Whereas C++ now manages a new standard every 3 years...
    All advice is offered in good faith only. You are ultimately responsible for the effects of your programs and the integrity of the machines they run on. Anything I post, code snippets, advice, etc is licensed as Public Domain https://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/

    C++23 Compiler: Microsoft VS2022 (17.4.2)

  6. #6
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    6,262

    Re: ECMA group for BASIC - who would you nominate?

    Just for the record...

    I'd like my name to be removed from any list, which (in the end) -
    favors bureaucracy over innovation.

    "He was a great paper-pusher" is not what I'd like to have written on my grave...

    "Post code!"
    should not only be the suggestion for anybody who seeks advice here in the forum
    (and wants to be taken more seriously)...

    It should also be a requirement for people who want "language- or feature-additions".

    <shrug>

    Olaf

  7. #7

    Thread Starter
    Frenzied Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Norfolk UK (inbred)
    Posts
    1,621

    Re: ECMA group for BASIC - who would you nominate?

    Quote Originally Posted by jpbro View Post
    you should probably remove your "Niya and Olaf free zones" signature for this thread
    You are quite right!

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmidt View Post
    should not only be the suggestion for anybody who seeks advice here in the forum
    (and wants to be taken more seriously)...
    Luckily, that's not me.
    By the power invested in me, all the threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones - no arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign.

  8. #8

    Thread Starter
    Frenzied Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Norfolk UK (inbred)
    Posts
    1,621

    Re: ECMA group for BASIC - who would you nominate?

    Niya might have some good suggestions and I know he has good experience in more modern languages and their usage but he also does like a battle and I think that in such a team you'd want to avoid battles otherwise you'd potentially end up in that never-updating Fortran position. Otherwise, he'd be in my initial example list above.
    By the power invested in me, all the threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones - no arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign.

  9. #9
    Frenzied Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    1,988

    Re: ECMA group for BASIC - who would you nominate?

    well, not sure.
    its not the same as the smartest kid or the one with most knowledge of the language.
    this job is for people that enjoy doing this kind of work.
    sure he need to have a vast knowledge but its also about the right personality as well.

    for me the smartest programmer is the Trick.
    and one with vast knowledge Olaf. those two are in their own level.
    but will they enjoy doing this? if so, go ahead.

    another person that I think could fit here is Wqweto and Krool.

  10. #10
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    2,201

    Re: ECMA group for BASIC - who would you nominate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmidt View Post
    Just for the record...

    I'd like my name to be removed from any list, which (in the end) -
    favors bureaucracy over innovation.

    "He was a great paper-pusher" is not what I'd like to have written on my grave...
    LMAO! How about "He Was a Great Bit-Pusher" instead I don't think anyone would nominate you for a bureaucratic position. In fact, you are one of the guys I thought that two tiers might be a good idea.

    And to be 100% clear, I want to reiterate that I think an "Ecma-like governing/standards body would do more harm than good right now" is my main point, "but as a fun thought exercise, I'll play the game." is where my posts come from in this thread.

    I'm going to write "out loud" again, and this will be messy because I tired and ready for bed but:

    A lot of bureaucratic/organizational structures look like a pyramid (power concentrated at the top, and each level down has more people "controlling" more people below them),or perhaps tree (again with the "boss" at the top, and reports below), but I think in the case of a technical working group, a different structure would be better- the majority (and concentrated) power should be with the technically competent. I can't think of a good way to show that graphically yet. However, I don't want to crap on bureaucratic/political layer too much - I think there is value, it's just often over-represented/over-powered. The value of a bureaucratic layer would be to a) resolve irreconcilable disputes at the technical layer by ruling on contentious issues so that progress can continue, and b) to look appealing to other systems/bureaucracies/companies/institutions so that the technology looks stable enough to adopt for their projects.

    Alright, end of rant!

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmidt View Post
    "Post code!"
    should not only be the suggestion for anybody who seeks advice here in the forum
    (and wants to be taken more seriously)...
    Agreed! I've been hoping you (and some of the new guys like Corso & webbiz) would comment on/or criticize this code - https://www.vbforums.com/showthread....ectCOM-amp-RC6 but crickets!

  11. #11
    Fanatic Member 2kaud's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    England
    Posts
    803

    Re: ECMA group for BASIC - who would you nominate?

    IMO whatever you do, set it up quickly and get exec control before MS muscles in on the act and takes over. They think they 'own' Basic and can get away with whatever they want with it.... This situation has really only arisen because of MS's arrogance re only supporting vb.net - rather than both VBs as IMO they should have done.

    Just my 2 cents as I don't use Basic.
    All advice is offered in good faith only. You are ultimately responsible for the effects of your programs and the integrity of the machines they run on. Anything I post, code snippets, advice, etc is licensed as Public Domain https://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/

    C++23 Compiler: Microsoft VS2022 (17.4.2)

  12. #12

    Thread Starter
    Frenzied Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Norfolk UK (inbred)
    Posts
    1,621

    Re: ECMA group for BASIC - who would you nominate?

    Yes, I'd agree with that. It would be useful to act as a bulwark against imposed changes that 'feel' wrong to the community. We know how MS can hijack a product and then destroy it from within. If we had a group of intelligent and co-operative types (that were willing to admit to actually being a group) then it might act as some sort of a counter to any such hijacking. Informal or not, there is a sort of quora in place here already of technically minded chaps.

    I suppose we are just seeking their individual technical competencies to achieve some sort of decision about potential future changes. Surely that can't be too hard to suppress one's personality side for the sake of VisualBASIC and its future?
    By the power invested in me, all the threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones - no arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign.

  13. #13
    Fanatic Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Posts
    819

    Re: ECMA group for BASIC - who would you nominate?

    Go spelunking for the guys who developed some of the other open source basics there are a handful. Maybe a couple of them are retired and wouldn’t mind dropping some Wisdom from thier experiences.
    Last edited by dz32; Oct 5th, 2022 at 04:59 AM.

  14. #14

    Thread Starter
    Frenzied Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Norfolk UK (inbred)
    Posts
    1,621

    Re: ECMA group for BASIC - who would you nominate?

    I will spelunk without knowing what that means. I think it may be messy.
    By the power invested in me, all the threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones - no arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign.

  15. #15

    Thread Starter
    Frenzied Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Norfolk UK (inbred)
    Posts
    1,621

    Re: ECMA group for BASIC - who would you nominate?

    I would invite some of the QB64 chaps but as they are known as a disruptive and argumentative crowd, it may be best to only offer them associate membership only.
    By the power invested in me, all the threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones - no arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  



Click Here to Expand Forum to Full Width