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Thread: Jan 6th rioter sentenced

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    Jan 6th rioter sentenced

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/guy-ref...nce-87-months/

    87 month is a long time. I'd have to say I'm Ok with it. I don't think all the rioters should get 7+yrs but this guy was really trying hard to bring harm to Congress.

    Will this be a deterrent to others?

    My GUESS is, yes it will, for most people. I think most of the rioters were sort of caught in the moment and swept along. Well that and a president that said it was Ok. lol

    But there are some that are just to far down the rabbit hole. I saw an interview at a Trump rally just a few days ago and the couple being interviewed firmly believed it was not Trump supports that stormed Congress, it was staged by the Left.

    Anyway, I'm not trying to start a pro/anti Trump discussion, my central question is these convictions and sentences serve as a deterrent???

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    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Jan 6th rioter sentenced

    In this general case, it might. There has been a long series of 'civil unrest' issues that have made the news, such as the takeover of the Malheur Wildlife Refuge. Those involved had no significant consequences, aside from the guy who got shot. One of the leaders is even running for governor of Idaho, currently.

    As long as we say that there are no consequences for breaking and entering, vandalism, and so forth (as long as you are white), then things will just keep escalating. It goes from say it with words, to say it with violence against property, to say it with violence against people. Where does the line get drawn? Prior to this, it just wasn't drawn. Now, maybe there will be a line, in which case there will be people who will cross it and others who won't, but if there is no line, there's nothing to cross/not cross.
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    Re: Jan 6th rioter sentenced

    I would think not. I don't think deluded people worry about it. They probably thought Trump would win and the country would thank them. I don't think people with painted faces and buffalo horns are thinking about the next hour let alone consequences. They probably consider those convicted to be political martyrs.
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    Re: Jan 6th rioter sentenced

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    I would think not. I don't think deluded people worry about it. They probably thought Trump would win and the country would thank them. I don't think people with painted faces and buffalo horns are thinking about the next hour let alone consequences. They probably consider those convicted to be political martyrs.
    You may be right about what the the insurrectionists were thinking at the time but the question is would it happen again, now that people have seen what happens to those who do it? If Trump were to run in 2024 and lose again and claim that the election was stolen, would those same people or others like them be inclined to do the same thing again? I'd think not, if they have recent evidence that they might go to jail for years for doing so.

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    Re: Jan 6th rioter sentenced

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    But there are some that are just to far down the rabbit hole. I saw an interview at a Trump rally just a few days ago and the couple being interviewed firmly believed it was not Trump supports that stormed Congress, it was staged by the Left.
    I saw that too. The question is whether, if someone genuinely believed that, would they have been likely to be involved in it in the first place? Also, unless they think that the jail terms are fake too, it would likely still serve as a deterrent for them in any similar situations arose in the future.

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    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: Jan 6th rioter sentenced

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    You may be right about what the the insurrectionists were thinking at the time but the question is would it happen again, now that people have seen what happens to those who do it? If Trump were to run in 2024 and lose again and claim that the election was stolen, would those same people or others like them be inclined to do the same thing again? I'd think not, if they have recent evidence that they might go to jail for years for doing so.
    Just go to or listen to one of his latest rallies...they didn't learn a damn thing.
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    Re: Jan 6th rioter sentenced

    24 states out of 50 have the death penalty for the most serious criminals in America.
    Yet it doesn't even seem to slow anyone down.

    If there is another resurrection, it won't be in Washington.... Or it'll be a lot bigger since Washington will be more prepared.

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    Re: Jan 6th rioter sentenced

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    Just go to or listen to one of his latest rallies...they didn't learn a damn thing.
    I'm not saying that they're any less moronic than they were before but, if the opportunity for another insurrection occurred, the fact that people went to jail the last time may be a deterrent to some people. The fact that they don't change their rhetoric doesn't mean that they wouldn't change their behaviour if their freedom was genuinely on the line. Before, during and after the last insurrection, no one thought that anyone would go to jail for it. Now they know differently. It definitely wouldn't deter everyone and some may even consider risking liberty to be a badge of honour, but I find it hard to believe that it wouldn't deter anyone. i think someone said earlier that some people just got swept up in the excitement of the moment. Some of those people may think better of it if they know that jail is a genuine possibility.

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    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: Jan 6th rioter sentenced

    Well I certainly don't see how you can know this:

    Before, during and after the last insurrection, no one thought that anyone would go to jail for it.
    That is just speculation on your part. And I can't really argue that there aren't people that knowing what we know now might not have gone. But parts of the mob planned that out days ahead. I can't believe during the run up it never crossed there minds they may be breaking the law especially as they stockpiled weapons. I guess they may have believed Trump would pardon them all.


    "some people just got swept up in the excitement of the moment". Maybe a few, but most were summoned there and came with a purpose.
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    Re: Jan 6th rioter sentenced

    I think there were a great many folks who were just swept up in the moment and, yes, they're likely to be deterred whether they truly believe Trump won or not (which I think is another mixed bag). There was definitely a hard core who were intent on actual armed insurrection, though, and they won't be deterred.

    That said, I agree with this:-
    If there is another resurrection, it won't be in Washington
    I think it's unlikely that next time round they'll target Washington. It'll likely be state buildings and even individuals houses. Let's not forget there was a genuine kidnapping plot against the Michigan governor, election workers were forced into hiding after Trumps accusations and the level of harassment Ruby Freedman and Shaye Moss received. Honestly, the chance of personal injury or even death will be high but it probably won't be in Washington.


    Also, another resurrection is bound to whip up the religious right.
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    Re: Jan 6th rioter sentenced

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    Well I certainly don't see how you can know this:



    That is just speculation on your part. And I can't really argue that there aren't people that knowing what we know now might not have gone. But parts of the mob planned that out days ahead. I can't believe during the run up it never crossed there minds they may be breaking the law especially as they stockpiled weapons. I guess they may have believed Trump would pardon them all.


    "some people just got swept up in the excitement of the moment". Maybe a few, but most were summoned there and came with a purpose.
    I'm generalising, of course, but I think it's safe to say that many (most? all?) of the people who stormed the Capitol on Jan 6 did not expect any of them to go to jail for it. In short, we all know that bad things can happen to us but we often tend to ignore it. If we see those bad things happen to someone else in front of us though, we are more likely to think twice about putting ourselves in the same position where the same bad thing could happen to us. The question is whether some insurrectionists going to jail will deter people from mounting another insurrection. The fact is that we don't know but logic dictates that it will for some to varying degrees and not to others. How many fall where would just be speculation.

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    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Jan 6th rioter sentenced

    There will be some in any case, but a lot will choose not to. That's always the case with any deterrent. It's all cost/benefit as perceived by the individual.
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    Re: Jan 6th rioter sentenced

    I don't think people with painted faces and buffalo horns are thinking about the next hour let alone consequences. They probably consider those convicted to be political martyrs.
    That guy probably does believe that but then again he's been diagnosed with transient schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, depression and anxiety. lol
    Actually he said he was sure Trump would pardon him. Whether he really thought that far ahead and was just saying that for the court, 50/50.

    Whether it deters people or not, I think just slapping them on the wrist would have been worse.

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    Re: Jan 6th rioter sentenced

    I'm not sure this Alex Jones judgement will be a major deterrent. The guy is found guilty and turns right around and claims victory.

    https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/04/media...ion/index.html

    But maybe it'll reduce the extreme lying.

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    Re: Jan 6th rioter sentenced

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    I saw an interview at a Trump rally just a few days ago and the couple being interviewed firmly believed it was not Trump supports that stormed Congress, it was staged by the Left.
    These rioters are trying to save America from the left, they just went about it the wrong way. If you want to revolt, you have to be willing to go all the way or don't go at all. This riot was "one foot in one foot out", halfway between a protest and a revolt. It was just stupid and bound to fail. Now the left can freely spin the event to tell any story they want. America is truly doomed.

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    Re: Jan 6th rioter sentenced

    If they truly want to save America from the left, they need to do it properly. Win hearts and minds like Jordan Peterson and Candance Owens. That's how you beat the left, not with some half-assed rioting. The state has an overwhelming monopoly on force. You're not going to overthrow the American government by force. It's too powerful.

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    Re: Jan 6th rioter sentenced

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    Win hearts and minds like Jordan Peterson
    Jordan Peterson could do with winning a mind as he seems to have destroyed his own while disregarding pretty much all his own advice and that of any reputable doctor.

    It's also interesting that, in order to win hearts and minds, Peterson has to blatantly lie. He did come to particular prominence in the first place by lying about Canadian law pertaining to trans people, after all. Nothing the right likes more than a good lie about trans people. Funny how we don't hear anything about trans people in public bathrooms any more, since they realised that that was a loser. Now they're all pretending to care about women's sport.

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    Re: Jan 6th rioter sentenced

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    These rioters are trying to save America from the left, they just went about it the wrong way.
    I would also argue that, at the very least, "save" deserves to be in quotes there. Everyone wants their preferred form of government because they thinks it's better. You could just as easily say that the left is trying to save America from Christian nationalists and white supremacists. It's the right who bleat most often and most loudly about freedom and democracy and yet they're the ones trying to restrict both right now. What the left can do - what the left is doing - is pointing out that many on the right either believed obvious lies or went along with those lies because it was convenient and tried to overthrow a democratically-elected president. To say that that is the wrong way to save America is just a bit of an understatement.

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    Re: Jan 6th rioter sentenced

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    I would also argue that, at the very least, "save" deserves to be in quotes there. Everyone wants their preferred form of government because they thinks it's better. You could just as easily say that the left is trying to save America from Christian nationalists and white supremacists.
    This is a fair point and it could very well hold merit. While I don't pay that much attention to the actual politics at play in American culture, I do pay a lot of attention to the culture of both conservatives and progressives. I mean you can't not pay attention to it, they rub it in your face every chance they get in every movie, TV show and talk show. It dominates Twitter, Reddit, TikTok and YouTube. Even the VBForums membership is mostly left leaning. When I compare the value systems and ideologies of both progressives and conservatives, I can't help but see a huge problem with the dogma of the left.

    Perhaps there is more nuance to it and it's not so black and white, I don't know but just based on the window I get into your culture from all the way across the world through the constant bombardment of your media and tech giants, I can see why people would want to rebel. I'd rebel too if the progressive leftist madness ever gained dominance in my country. Thankfully, it is not so where I'm from. We are still mostly a conservative country that hold to values that makes some kind of sense and is grounded in reality.

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    Re: Jan 6th rioter sentenced

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    based on the window I get into your culture from all the way across the world through the constant bombardment of your media and tech giants
    I didn't know you got so much information about Australian culture over there.

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    Re: Jan 6th rioter sentenced

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    When I compare the value systems and ideologies of both progressives and conservatives, I can't help but see a huge problem with the dogma of the left.
    The thing I find funny in a bad way is that it's generally accepted that left-wingers tend to be collectivistic while right-wingers tend to be individualistic, but what they're generally trying to achieve is pretty much the opposite. Progressives in the US are pushing to allow every individual to be individual while conservatives want to force everyone to be the same, that same being their ideal, of course.

    It's quite clear that the fight against abortion is not about being pro-life for many, if not most, but is about punishing women whom they feel are immoral. Those same people who claim to want to prevent abortions are the same people who are often against sex education and contraception. Same-sex marriage has zero effect on anyone who isn't marrying someone of the same sex yet you can bet that, now they've overturned Row v Wade, conservatives are coming for that too.

    Here in Australia, when we had a national vote on that subject, right-wingers knew that they couldn't win on the actual facts of the matter so they tried to make it about religious freedom. That would have a better chance in the US but we're not such rabid Christians here so that failed as badly as it should. We've now had same-sex marriage for some time and - surprise, surprise - religious people are just as free as they ever were.

    The whole trans argument is just a move from the whole gay argument that they knew they had already lost. People being trans has basically zero effect on the lives of pretty much every person trying to suppress them. Even if you think that they are mentally ill, they're not actually affecting anyone but themselves. Of course, conservatives think that it's a far greater horror that they should use what they consider to be the wrong pronoun than for a trans person to live their entire life being forced to be something that they feel, with every fibre of their being, that they're not. Yeah I can see why left-wing dogma is such a huge problem for conservatives. Despite their claiming the complete opposite, individual freedom is anathema to them.

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    Re: Jan 6th rioter sentenced

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    It's quite clear that the fight against abortion is not about being pro-life for many, if not most, but is about punishing women whom they feel are immoral.
    Not so fast. Now, I'm sure you're quite right about this for some people but I've heard another very compelling argument against abortion. One of the more "anti-establishment" podcasts I watch raised a very good point that being pro-abortion is akin to encouraging people to think that their actions should not have consequences, something I wholeheartedly agree with. It had nothing whatsoever to do with morals and everything to do with encouraging people to make better choices by not taking away consequences. I think it's harmful for a society overall when it's population are encouraged to do whatever they want while avoiding responsibility for their actions.

    However, it might surprise you do know that despite my more "conservative" leanings, personally I'm slightly more pro-abortion. But make no mistake, it's not for idealistic reasons. If a government or culture wants to encourage me to avoid the consequences of my poor choices, hey I'm not gonna stop them. I mean if could dumpster dive bareback on a weekend to quench my thirst in a drought and avoid being hitched to a 5 for the next 18 years, why would I not want this. While society might be overall worse off for encouraging this kind of behavior, I can at least benefit personally.

    If the culture is pro-life, I'm fine with this too because I can see the benefits to society overall. There really isn't a downside to having a society with a healthy understanding of the relationship between actions and consequences. I just can't dumpster dive all willy-nilly anymore but I can live with that.

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    Re: Jan 6th rioter sentenced

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    Of course, conservatives think that it's a far greater horror that they should use what they consider to be the wrong pronoun than for a trans person to live their entire life being forced to be something that they feel, with every fibre of their being, that they're not. Yeah I can see why left-wing dogma is such a huge problem for conservatives. Despite their claiming the complete opposite, individual freedom is anathema to them.
    It was actually this very topic is where I first heard about Jordan Peterson. He made some points about compelled speech which I agree with. I don't care how others choose to live their life but that doesn't mean I want you to compel my speech. Words have meaning. You don't just decide that a word means what you want it to mean.

    In my country there is a prominent MTF(Male to female) trans person that's always involved in controversies. Very public battles about petty nonsense, not unlike what you see in American reality TV. Stuff about who's sleeping with who, who is cheap and don't like to spend money and a bunch of petty nonsense like that. Naturally this person is sometimes the topic of conversation in informal settings. It's pretty normal here for this person to be referred to as a "he" and not a "she" in casual conversations and guess what....no one cares. Everyone gets it. If you woke up one morning and decide that you're a "she", a "they", a "xer", a "xi" or whatever else, that's fine, we have no problem with that whatsoever, but I am also free to reject your attempt at hijacking the language. We accept that too. We understand that and no one loses their minds over it. That is what tolerance is all about. We tolerate all points of view. The fact that leftists in America is trying force this issue of pronouns and turn it into a hate crime is very odd to me and if that were tried in my country, there would be push back. I completely understand where conservatives are coming from.

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    Re: Jan 6th rioter sentenced

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    Not so fast. Now, I'm sure you're quite right about this for some people but I've heard another very compelling argument against abortion. One of the more "anti-establishment" podcasts I watch raised a very good point that being pro-abortion is akin to encouraging people to think that their actions should not have consequences, something I wholeheartedly agree with. It had nothing whatsoever to do with morals and everything to do with encouraging people to make better choices by not taking away consequences. I think it's harmful for a society overall when it's population are encouraged to do whatever they want while avoiding responsibility for their actions.
    That is an utter crock. Talking about "consequences" really just reinforces what I said: it's about punishing women who are perceived to be immoral. Either an abortion is killing a person or it's not.

    If an abortion is not killing a person, which is what medical science indicates is the case, then it is simply a medical procedure being carried out on a person like any other medical procedure. Who are you or anybody else to tell someone that they can't have a medical procedure because their actions are the reason that it is required?

    If an abortion is killing a person then any argument about consequences is moot because we don't kill people, so abortions would/should not be allowed on those grounds alone. That's why abortions are only permitted up to a particular point in a pregnancy. Most people who are pro-choice are not trying to legalise late-term abortions without mitigating factors like a clear and present danger to the mother's health.

    No one is pro abortion. I would prefer that no abortions ever took place. I am pro-choice, i.e. I think that a woman should have the right to choose an abortion if that is what she prefers. This idea that women are having unprotected sex willy-nilly and having abortions to fix the problem is simply right-wing propaganda. Such scenarios are statistically insignificant. Like I said, the people who are anti-choice are also often the same people who are against sex education, contraception and the morning after pill (as we call it here in Australia; called Plan B in the US and probably has other names elsewhere). How about those people have some consequences for their actions?

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    Re: Jan 6th rioter sentenced

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    It was actually this very topic is where I first heard about Jordan Peterson. He made some points about compelled speech which I agree with. I don't care how others choose to live their life but that doesn't mean I want you to compel my speech. Words have meaning. You don't just decide that a word means what you want it to mean.
    I always find that argument to be totally hilarious in relation to Jordan Peterson, given that he loves to make up his own definitions for words and then equivocate whenever it's convenient. I'm not sure whether he's used the expression "facts don't care about your feelings" but he has basically stated that the Christian religion is more important than actual facts because people find it's stories important. Well he might cry.

    Also, words have the meanings we apply to them. Those meanings are not intrinsic. Many words have changed meaning time for various reasons. On the subject of gendered pronouns, there's no specific reason that they have to relate specifically to biological sex and, to be frank, they already don't. How many transphobic macho men do you think refer to their car or motorcycle or the like as "she"? The fact is that language evolves all the time and especially as our knowledge increases. Insisting that a specific word simply must not take on a new meaning simply doesn't hold water. It's obviously not an issue with words and meanings but rather that you don't like the new meaning.
    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    I completely understand where conservatives are coming from.
    I can't help but notice that you are focusing on the subject of pronouns for trans people. If you can really understand the angst that American conservatives are feeling then I'm sure there must be much more and much graver issues than saying "he/she" when you'd rather say "she/he". I'd be interested to hear some more of what is surely a laundry list of atrocities.

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    Re: Jan 6th rioter sentenced

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    Not so fast. Now, I'm sure you're quite right about this for some people but I've heard another very compelling argument against abortion. One of the more "anti-establishment" podcasts I watch raised a very good point that being pro-abortion is akin to encouraging people to think that their actions should not have consequences, something I wholeheartedly agree with. It had nothing whatsoever to do with morals and everything to do with encouraging people to make better choices by not taking away consequences. I think it's harmful for a society overall when it's population are encouraged to do whatever they want while avoiding responsibility for their actions.
    How does that attitude work when the person didn't make a choice? Rape victims being forced to have their rapist's baby - where is the woman's choice there? Being forced to carry a stillborn child to term, potentially for several weeks - where is the woman's choice there? How about in cases of contraception failing? How about a health risk to the woman - should she be forced to risk her life over an unforeseen event?

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    If the culture is pro-life, I'm fine with this too because I can see the benefits to society overall. There really isn't a downside to having a society with a healthy understanding of the relationship between actions and consequences. I just can't dumpster dive all willy-nilly anymore but I can live with that.
    There is also a big difference (especially in the USA) between "pro-life" and "anti-abortion". If people were really "pro-life" they would care about the life during the pregnancy and after the birth. However a lot of "pro-lifers" seem to feel that once the baby is born they have no responsibility for the child they forced to be born. No decent or affordable health care, lake of state benefits, lack of paid maternity leave, etc. If someone is really pro-life shouldn't they also be campaigning for the child after it has been born, not just up until the point of birth - or is it simply easier to claim a moral high ground when the baby isn't their problem, but then disown responsibility once it is a part of society?

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    Re: Jan 6th rioter sentenced

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    If you woke up one morning and decide that you're a "she", a "they", a "xer", a "xi" or whatever else, that's fine
    That you would say that just shows how little regard you have for trans people. No one is waking up one morning and deciding to be something they aren't. Many, if not most, of the arguments I hear against trans people actually have little to do with trans people. The whole public bathroom argument is a perfect example. How many times did conservatives express a fear of men pretending to be women and going into a women's bathroom and molesting their wife or daughter? This demonstrates a similar lack of regard for trans people because those people conservatives are in fear of are not trans. Either they are condemning trans people to suffer because they are afraid of cis men who commit sex crimes, or they just don't believe that trans people genuinely exist at all. It would be ironic if it were the former, given that they basically argue the exact opposite where guns are concerned. Sadly, I feel fairly confident that it's the latter. To evidence that, I recently heard prominent anti-trans activist and dogs chew toy Ben Shapiro say that there is a significant portion of the population who believe that they're the opposite sex. Given that accepting that your birth is what it is is a prerequisite of being trans, he either has no clue what he's talking about or he's a massive liar. I'm happy to say both.

    Anyway, I didn't intend to hijack this thread for this purpose so I'll say no more... unless someone posts something else that I strongly disagree with.

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    Re: Jan 6th rioter sentenced

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    The whole public bathroom argument is a perfect example. How many times did conservatives express a fear of men pretending to be women and going into a women's bathroom and molesting their wife or daughter?
    Exactly! This argument is up there with the "any gay man working with children must be a paedophile and a predator" argument. It shows a complete lack of understanding, and a complete unwillingness to learn.
    Last edited by PlausiblyDamp; Aug 5th, 2022 at 07:48 AM.

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    Re: Jan 6th rioter sentenced

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    Who are you or anybody else to tell someone that they can't have a medical procedure because their actions are the reason that it is required?
    I'm not trying to tell anybody what they can and can't do. I'm almost neutral on this issue of pro-life vs pro-choice.

    Abortions saved me a couple times from some bad choices. You won't hear me complaining about pro-choice advocates. I shudder to think about how different and dreadful my life would have been if I hadn't convinced those she-devils to get rid of our "accidents".

    However, I won't sit here and pretend that I am some kind of paragon of virtue because the truth is I was sexually irresponsible and probably deserved all the frustrations those harpies would have brought into my life. I was able to weasel my way out of it and unshackle myself from these women using abortion. But if I were not allowed to get those abortions, to be honest, I wouldn't cry about it. Why? Because I made stupid decisions and stupid decisions should have consequences. But I'm also a pragmatist so if you give me a way out, I will take it.

    Point is, I'm fine either way. Pro-choice, pro-life. Either is fine for me. Naturally I will lean more pro-choice because of my own experience but I'm not exactly against pro-lifers either.
    Last edited by Niya; Aug 5th, 2022 at 08:59 AM.

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    Re: Jan 6th rioter sentenced

    Quote Originally Posted by PlausiblyDamp View Post
    How does that attitude work when the person didn't make a choice? Rape victims being forced to have their rapist's baby - where is the woman's choice there? Being forced to carry a stillborn child to term, potentially for several weeks - where is the woman's choice there? How about in cases of contraception failing? How about a health risk to the woman - should she be forced to risk her life over an unforeseen event?
    Those are good points but, you'd have to ask them about that. Like I said, I'm more or less neutral on this abortion stuff. I just felt that the argument made on this podcast about not divorcing responsibility from a person's actions was a very solid argument in favor of the pro-life position. It made a lot of sense when I heard it. I don't care enough about abortion issues to think too deeply on it.

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    Re: Jan 6th rioter sentenced

    @Niya, I edited post #24 to remove my highly inappropriate epithet. I's appreciate it if you could also remove from where you quoted me in post #29.

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    Re: Jan 6th rioter sentenced

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    I'm not trying to tell anybody what they can and can't do. I'm almost neutral on this issue of pro-life vs pro-choice.

    Abortions saved me a couple times from some bad choices. You won't hear me complaining about pro-choice advocates. I shudder to think about how different and dreadful my life would have been if I hadn't convinced those she-devils to get rid of our "accidents".

    However, I won't sit here and pretend that I am some kind of paragon of virtue because the truth is I was sexually irresponsible and probably deserved all the frustrations those harpies would have brought into my life. I was able to weasel my way out of it and unshackle myself from these women using abortion. But if I were not allowed to get those abortions, to be honest, I wouldn't cry about it. Why? Because I made stupid decisions and stupid decisions should have consequences. But I'm also a pragmatist so if you give me a way out, I will take it.

    Point is, I'm fine either way. Pro-choice, pro-life. Either is fine for me. Naturally I will lean more pro-choice because of my own experience but I'm not exactly against pro-lifers either.
    I see that you're very much taking the blinkered male view here. The fact that you found an argument that abortions teach people that actions don't have consequences compelling demonstrates that you have little empathy for women. For a woman who has an abortion, that IS a consequence. No one wants to have an abortion and no well-balanced person makes the decision to have one lightly. There are physical and psychological consequences involved. Did that ever cross your mind?

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    Re: Jan 6th rioter sentenced

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    That you would say that just shows how little regard you have for trans people. No one is waking up one morning and deciding to be something they aren't.
    I never get why leftists are so exhaustingly pedantic.

    Look, if a baby is born and she came out of the womb with a vagina, then the parents, doctors, relatives etc would call her a "she". At 16 years old, she started feeling at odds with her birth-assigned gender identity but said and did nothing about it. At twenty years old she changes her name from Sasha to Steve, she gets some surgery and asks everyone refer to her as "he" or "him". This person started as a "she" and was so for 19 years then at some point became a "he", explain to me how this is not a decision they made? Somewhere between the ages of 19 and 20 she decided to do something about those feelings she had since 16. She decided that she was not a she anymore. Do you have a better way of explaining this that won't offend delicate leftists sensibilities?
    Last edited by Niya; Aug 5th, 2022 at 08:45 AM.

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    Re: Jan 6th rioter sentenced

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    I see that you're very much taking the blinkered male view here. The fact that you found an argument that abortions teach people that actions don't have consequences compelling demonstrates that you have little empathy for women.
    Not teaches, encourages. The argument made was that it encouraged people to be more irresponsible. I found it hard to disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    For a woman who has an abortion, that IS a consequence. No one wants to have an abortion and no well-balanced person makes the decision to have one lightly. There are physical and psychological consequences involved. Did that ever cross your mind?
    Funny, when conservatives make this argument in support of pro-life it, they are labeled as misogynists for want to control women's bodies. Maybe you're not a leftist after all.

    Also, if leftists cared so much, they wouldn't be losing their minds over Roe v Wade. You'd think they'd be happy. Less abortions mean less physical and psychological consequences as you put it....right?
    Last edited by Niya; Aug 5th, 2022 at 08:47 AM.

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    Re: Jan 6th rioter sentenced

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    @Niya, I edited post #24 to remove my highly inappropriate epithet. I's appreciate it if you could also remove from where you quoted me in post #29.
    It's done.

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    Re: Jan 6th rioter sentenced

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    Not teaches, encourages. The argument made was that it encouraged people to be more irresponsible. I found it hard to disagree.
    Yeah, that's the argument that always gets made. Sex education is opposed on the same grounds. The data doesn't support the position, but nobody cares about the data.
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    Re: Jan 6th rioter sentenced

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    I never get why leftists are so exhaustingly pedantic.

    Look, if a baby is born and she came out of the womb with a vagina, then the parents, doctors, relatives etc would call her a "she". At 16 years old, she started feeling at odds with her birth-assigned gender identity but said and did nothing about it. At twenty years old she changes her name from Sasha to Steve, she gets some surgery and asks everyone refer to her as "he" or "him". This person started as a "she" and was so for 19 years then at some point became a "he", explain to me how this is not a decision they made? Somewhere between the ages of 19 and 20 she decided to do something about those feelings she had since 16. She decided that she was not a she anymore. Do you have a better way of explaining this that won't offend delicate leftists sensibilities?
    You originally said "If you woke up one morning and decide that... " this implies it was a simple and quick decision, as if the person hadn't thought about it prior to waking up that morning. That makes the actual process the individual went through to reach that decision seem almost flippant. It would not have been a quick and easy decision, your choice of words does no justice to what was actually involved.

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    Re: Jan 6th rioter sentenced

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    Not teaches, encourages. The argument made was that it encouraged people to be more irresponsible. I found it hard to disagree.
    Funny, when conservatives make this argument in support of pro-life it, they are labeled as misogynists for want to control women's bodies. Maybe you're not a leftist after all.
    If a woman makes the decision then she has to live with the consequences, but it is her decision. When a pro-lifer is making the choice on her behalf, effectively denying her the right to even make a choice that is something completely different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    Also, if leftists cared so much, they wouldn't be losing their minds over Roe v Wade. You'd think they'd be happy. Less abortions mean less physical and psychological consequences as you put it....right?
    Sometimes a choice is a matter of picking the lesser of two evils, there are consequences either way. But surely the person who will suffer the consequences of that choice should have the authority to make that choice, if somebody is denying a woman the authority over her own body then they are denying her the ability to make that choice. They are forcing the consequences of their choice onto the woman.

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    Re: Jan 6th rioter sentenced

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    I never get why leftists are so exhaustingly pedantic.

    Look, if a baby is born and she came out of the womb with a vagina, then the parents, doctors, relatives etc would call her a "she". At 16 years old, she started feeling at odds with her birth-assigned gender identity but said and did nothing about it. At twenty years old she changes her name from Sasha to Steve, she gets some surgery and asks everyone refer to her as "he" or "him". This person started as a "she" and was so for 19 years then at some point became a "he", explain to me how this is not a decision they made? Somewhere between the ages of 19 and 20 she decided to do something about those feelings she had since 16. She decided that she was not a she anymore. Do you have a better way of explaining this that won't offend delicate leftists sensibilities?
    You certainly think like a right-winger; that's for sure. Everything you said here is utter hogwash.

    Firstly, let's say that you wake up one morning and you don't feel like eating chocolate cake, then in the afternoon you feel like eating chocolate cake and so you then eat some chocolate cake. You made the decision to eat the chocolate cake but you never made a decision to want to eat chocolate cake. That was outside of your control. Your "argument" is just a repurposing of the same failed argument relating to gay people. It's not like everyone is born straight and then some people make an active choice to be attracted to the same sex instead. People choose who to have sex with but they don't choose who they want to have sex with. Being gay is not a choice and neither is being trans. Trans people don't decide that their gender identity doesn't match their sex. They realise it. A trans woman/man doesn't decide that their inner concept of self is that of a woman/man. They realise it.

    Your example demonstrates that you have no real concept of what it is to be trans. A trans man would not be cis until the age of 16 and then start "feeling at odds with their birth-assigned gender identity". A trans person feels at odds with the sex they're assigned at birth as long as they have a gender identity. They don't have the language to describe or understand it at first, which is why they will often not express it for some time, if ever, but it's always there because it's a part of them. It often takes a long time to come to terms with being transgender and then make the decision to actually transition, especially when much of the world is telling you that it's wrong and, quite possibly, so are all the people close to you whom you love and trust. The fact that someone chooses to physically transition at 20 years old doesn't mean that they they were cis at 19 and chose to be trans. It means that they came to terms with the fact that they are trans - have always been trans - and are now ready to take the big step to change their body to match their mind. Wanting others to refer to them the way they see themselves is not some snap decision but an acknowledgement of who they are and have always been and a desire for the world to tell them that they're a valuable person as they are. I'm sure that the turmoil a trans person suffers their entire life is nothing compared to what you would have to endure if you were to use pronouns that matched a person's gender identity rather than their sex. Please, don't do anything to help trans people feel accepted when doing so would be such an ordeal.

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    Re: Jan 6th rioter sentenced

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    Funny, when conservatives make this argument in support of pro-life it, they are labeled as misogynists for want to control women's bodies. Maybe you're not a leftist after all.
    Now you're just being completely disingenuous. I've certainly never labelled anyone a misogynist for that and I've never heard anyone else do so either. Anyone who knows anything knows that choosing to have an abortion and actually having one is an ordeal. Why do you think we so despise anti-choice activists who harass pregnant women who are considering an abortion? That having an abortion is traumatic is not, in and of itself, a reason not to have one though, because the alternative is to spend nine months pregnant and then have a baby. That can be a bit traumatic too, even if it's what you might, never mind if it's not. This seems to demonstrate again a lack of empathy for women.
    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    Also, if leftists cared so much, they wouldn't be losing their minds over Roe v Wade. You'd think they'd be happy. Less abortions mean less physical and psychological consequences as you put it....right?
    Wrong, and I find it hard to believe that you're really so unintelligent as to not be able to see that. Pregnancy and childbirth result in physical and psychological consequences too. Like pretty much every person who is genuinely pro-choice, I want there to be as few abortions as possible but I want every woman who wants one to be able to have one. Again, the best way to reduce the number of abortions is to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies and two of the best ways to do that are with proper sex education and accessible contraception but, again, the very people who are against abortion are often against those too.

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