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Thread: UK politics versus USA

  1. #41
    Smooth Moperator techgnome's Avatar
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    Switching parties - that's dedication. Here in SC the primaries are open... so I, as an LP member can walk up and ask for the Repbublican ticket and go vote. The guy behind me, a Republican, can then go grab a Democrat ticket and vote... In Nebraska, the primaries are closed. Your registration dictates which ballot you get.

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  2. #42
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    Idaho had open primaries, but the leadership of the Republican party felt that too many centrists were being elected, so they closed the Republican primary (the Democratic primary is still open). That didn't ensure sufficiently doctrinaire candidates, either, so now they are trying something else. I forget what that something else was, but the goal is to get some pretty extreme people elected.

    Interestingly, the leadership of the Republican party in the state is not the same as the leadership of a state that is primarily Republican. There is a feud between the political leaders and the party leaders, where the political leaders are more in the center (though well to the right nationally) than the leadership of the party.

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  3. #43
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    We all see the harm unlimited funding does, I'm not the brightest bulb on the tree and I've known this for years. Yet it continues and there really hasn't been much talk about changing it. An occasional mention but I don't know of any well organized movement. Seems like there is always bigger fish to fry.

  4. #44

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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post
    Switching parties - that's dedication. Here in SC the primaries are open... so I, as an LP member can walk up and ask for the Repbublican ticket and go vote. The guy behind me, a Republican, can then go grab a Democrat ticket and vote... In Nebraska, the primaries are closed. Your registration dictates which ballot you get.

    -tg
    More like hate...when I go on one of my rants about Trump people that know I did that laugh at me. The election before my republican friends switched and voted for Obama trying to knock Hillary out. I was trying to pay them back.
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  5. #45
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    Like the Warden in The Shawshank Redemption I wonder if you are being obtuse. Unlike him though, you probably know full well what that word means.

    The issue isn't abuse of money to manipulate elections, but the unprecedented amount of money that was spent to jigger this particular set of elections.

    And it wasn't just about sabotaging centrist Republicans. Quite a few Democrats who failed to toe the party line by being responsible toward constituents also had their campaigns submarined by mass spending from outside.

    Outside spending in Michigan’s 13th District is up 2,900% from just over $172,000 during the 2020 general election. Prior to the 2022 midterms, the most outside money spent for or against a single candidate in Michigan’s 13th District was during the 2012 election cycle when outside groups spent $153,000 to boost former Rep. John Conyers (D–Mich.).

    “I’ve never seen in Detroit a congressional race having this kind of outside money,” Jonathan Kinloch, chair of the district’s Democratic Party, told The Detroit News.
    Unprecedented outside spending and self-financing in Michigan’s 13th District Democratic primary

  6. #46
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    The issue isn't abuse of money to manipulate elections, but the unprecedented amount of money that was spent to jigger this particular set of elections.
    When it comes to things involving money the term "unprecedented amount" is used a lot. If for no other reason, inflation. lol

    I've never checked what percentages of the money come from low income/medium/high/Super rich/Corporations. . That breakdown may explain a lot about why laws and taxes favor certain groups.

  7. #47
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    There is probably a graph of this somewhere, but I would assume that every election brings unprecedented amounts of spending.
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  8. #48
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    Is there a country where money from special interest groups doesn't have an influence on elections? I'd be interested in hearing how they solved that problem.

  9. #49
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    So "thy eye offends thee" and you pluck it out.
    No, I just can't be bothered to do your work for you. If you posted zip file containing an app you'd written in the main forum and simply said "it doesn't work" with no further explanation, you'd get few responses. That's the equivalent of what you're doing by posting a video and saying "look at the point I want to make" without even saying what that point is.

    All I'm asking is that you state what you want to state rather than have us deduce it. I was asking you to do this:-
    The news clip doesn't present a position, it just relates what happened and notes that embarrassingly vast amounts of cash were dropped into campaigns to influence the elections. In some cases candidates from the other party were identified as "weak and easily defeated in the General" so money was spent to puff them up to win their Primaries.
    ...so thanks.

    I'm still not 100% clear but I think you're making one of two points, both of which I agree with.
    1. There's too much money and too little transparency around contributions in US politics. I covered this earlier in the thread so won't retread it but I think it's a very unhealthy aspect of your politics.
    2. That Dem money has been used to back election denying Republicans in the hope that they'll be easier to beat post primaries. I think just supporting a weak candidate on the other side is bad enough but probably just within the realms of forgivable politicking (I'm pretty sure we could dig up examples of Reps doing it to weak Dems, I can certainly find you examples of it happening in the UK). But to do it for election deniers when you're making such big hay out of how much of a danger to US politics perpetuating the big lie is... that's morally bankrupt. It's utter hypocrisy and the Dems are wrong to do it or to condone it. I think Kinzinger put it pretty well when he said "While I think a certain number of Democrats truly understand that democracy is threatened, don’t come to me after having spent money supporting an election denier in a primary, and then come to me and say, where are all the good Republicans?”

    edit> I didn't spot the extra page of posts. From your subsequent posts I think you were making point 1, right?

    Is there a country where money from special interest groups doesn't have an influence on elections?
    I wouldn't say we have none but I would say we have considerably less.

    I'm not sure I could offer a silver bullet but I think for us it's mostly about transparency. Donations over a £500 (about $600) have to be declared, including exactly who made it and who received it. There's rules around crowd funding that help deal with the abstraction that your PACs etc represent. I think the sponsorship rules probably go some way toward addressing the problems with "independent" groups sponsoring ads but mostly that's addressed by political ads not really being a thing over here.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Aug 4th, 2022 at 03:26 AM.
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    But the problem isn't donations any more. There is a lot there in need to sunshine and a cleanup, but there is even more money being used outside of the campaigns themselves. "Non affiliated" money outside the system is being spent without any limitation.

    A 2900% increase over the prior election is pretty substantial, don't you think?

  11. #51

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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    But the problem isn't donations any more. There is a lot there in need to sunshine and a cleanup, but there is even more money being used outside of the campaigns themselves. "Non affiliated" money outside the system is being spent without any limitation.

    A 2900% increase over the prior election is pretty substantial, don't you think?
    Maybe it has been happening all along but it seems a lot of "national money" is going into local and state races more than ever.
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    there is even more money being used outside of the campaigns themselves... A 2900% increase over the prior election is pretty substantial, don't you think?
    Yes, I do. But like I said, I can't be bothered to watch the video itself so do me a favour and summarise where they're getting that figure from. Since we seem to be talking about unidentified spending I'm guessing that it's a jump in advertising spending where the sponsor of the advert is unidentified. Is that correct or are there other sources they're including.

    If this is purely unidentified advertising spending then, yes, I agree. It could be legitimate but it sure sounds fishy. I think the only solution would be to increase the transparency. Campaign ads should be considered a donation so should have to be declared the same as any other. Of course, there's some difficulty around determining what constitutes a campaign ad. Over here we have an electoral commission who would adjudicate on that but it would always be a somewhat subjective decision.
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  13. #53
    Smooth Moperator techgnome's Avatar
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    Yes, I do. But like I said, I can't be bothered to watch the video itself so do me a favour and summarise where they're getting that figure from. Since we seem to be talking about unidentified spending I'm guessing that it's a jump in advertising spending where the sponsor of the advert is unidentified. Is that correct or are there other sources they're including.
    Not sure how it works there, but here the sponsor is always identified. Whether it's the candidate's campaign (in which the candidate is required to state their name and that they "approve this message") ... or it's the "independent" sponsors like "Veterans for the betterment of life" or the "coalition of dark forces for the support of the light" or "Cantina Droid Rights Movement" ... Personally I think it's these ads that create the most of the problems. Ever since SCOTUS determined that "Corporations are people too" (it's not quite that simple but it's the sound bite that is used) these types of ads and groups has proliferated.

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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    Good Gourd, I already gave you the information.

    Outside groups have spent $3.5 million to support Hollier and an additional $1.5 million opposing his self-funding opponent. Thanedar – who founded Avomeen Analytical Services, a chemical testing laboratory acquired in February 2021 by Element Materials Technologies – previously contributed $10.3 million to his unsuccessful 2018 campaign for Michigan governor.

    Outside spending in Michigan’s 13th District is up 2,900% from just over $172,000 during the 2020 general election. Prior to the 2022 midterms, the most outside money spent for or against a single candidate in Michigan’s 13th District was during the 2012 election cycle when outside groups spent $153,000 to boost former Rep. John Conyers (D–Mich.).
    $5M/$172,000 is 29, or 2900%

    Or is it your contention that OpenSecrets and its cited sources are just pulling figures out of hats?

    Look, I understand that the truth is uncomfortable for you to admit. But this is Crazy Level "la-la-la-ing." Is this how Flat Earthers manage to sleep at night? The degree of denial is staggering.

  15. #55
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    Good Gourd, I already gave you the information.
    Unless I'm missing it, no you didn't. You gave me the second paragraph in post 45 but the discussion about how much money has been spent, how and by whom is all in the first paragraph. I could have dug through your link but why should I? Stop expecting me to wade through your sources to construct your argument for you. You construct your argument, present it, and I'll either agree with it or not. I honestly don't know why you're struggling with this.

    Or is it your contention that OpenSecrets and its cited sources are just pulling figures out of hats?

    Look, I understand that the truth is uncomfortable for you to admit. But this is Crazy Level "la-la-la-ing." Is this how Flat Earthers manage to sleep at night? The degree of denial is staggering
    Seriously, read back in the thread. Every time you've actually put an assertion here, I've agreed with you, a jump of that level in funding seems weird and worthy of questioning.

    I can think of legitimate reasons for it, though. My best guess would be that this seat is just key in the current campaign so attracting much more funding. What do you ascribe it to?
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    I ascribe it to an intentional subversion of the electoral process to take power away from the many to be wielded by the few through devious and cynical means.

    It wasn't just one race, but all of them in this month's elections here.

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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    I ascribe it to an intentional subversion of the electoral process to take power away from the many to be wielded by the few through devious and cynical means.
    That seems to be what everyone has been saying about the problem with allowing so much money to be spent on elections. The fact that a political campaign uses devious methods doesn't surprise me. When haven't they? Not sure todays methods are any worse than in the past, it's just now they seem to have more money.

  18. #58
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    It just isn't that simple. Correcting for inflation when you plot the increasing role of money you get an exponential curve even on a log scale. It has truly gotten that bad.

  19. #59
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    Presumably, there is a break point in that curve. Not sure when it will be reached, though.

    2900% is mostly misleading. When you start with a low number, lots of increases look impressive. When my mother was running for office, she raised something like $20, all from her opponents. There were a couple reasons for that. For one thing, it was a four way race for three seats, so everybody else could say, "me...and also her" without any risk to themselves. Also, there wasn't much money in statewide elections at that time. I suppose I should also note that the district was small enough that a fair percentage of voters personally knew all of the candidates.

    These days, when there can be a ferocious battle for school board seats, let alone state offices, the amount of money pouring into races like that could be thousands, or even tens of thousands. As a percentage increase, that would be MASSIVE, so long as you are starting from $20.
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    Demented or just slipped up and told the truth?


  21. #61
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    I ascribe it to an intentional subversion of the electoral process to take power away from the many to be wielded by the few through devious and cynical means.
    I agree with you on the cynical. Not so sure about the devious. Have all the donations been declared?

    Demented or just slipped up and told the truth?
    Selectively edited and posted by Trump, fraudster in chief. So neither.
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  22. #62
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    Have all the donations been declared?
    Only donations above a certain amount have to actually be declared. When they reach another level, more information has to be released about the individual donations (such as the employer of the donation).

    So what happens? People will donate just short of the trigger amounts. It's like carrying around $9,900 when traveling, or doing deposits, because at $10k, declaration restrictions kick in and forms have to be filled out.

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  23. #63
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    People will donate just short of the trigger amounts
    Is that what's happened in this case? A scan read of the OpenSecrets article indicates not as it actually identifies lots of the donors and mostly just talks about "outside spending". I'm not seeing anything in there that implies anything underhanded. (The only indication of impropriety I'm seeing is that some of the funding appears to have come from Republican PACs even though its a Dem race - which is one of the things I thought he might be criticising Dems for doing back in post 49, though I guess not because he hasn't mentioned it since)

    This is what I find so frustrating about Dil's habit of just posting a link and some click baity tag line. It took an entire page of questioning just to understand the point that he even wanted to make and when I finally get to that, I check his sources only to find that they don't support that point at all. The whole conversation has been a complete waste of time.

    If the point was that the large sums of money skew elections, I agree. If the point was that someone was breaking the rules, I've yet to see evidence. Either of these points could have been been discussed and resolved within a couple of posts if we weren't required to play detective just to work out what conversation we're even having.
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    Selectively edited and posted by Trump, fraudster in chief. So neither.
    This is the main reason why I ignore most video clips. Maybe it's true, maybe not, who knows?? People are very good at distortions, half truths and flat out lies. And I don't really want to spend a lot of time fact checking every video.

    A person can have basically ANY political/social stance and there's a video(s) of someone telling you what you want to hear.

    I ascribe it to an intentional subversion of the electoral process to take power away from the many to be wielded by the few through devious and cynical means.
    This I like. It states his opinion. It makes having a discussion very straight forward.

  25. #65
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    With the rules we have around election financing, I would guess that they are kind of hard to break.
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    I didn't want to be involved and I won't be but just to give you a taste of politics as you kitty cats analyst wannabees are sooo naive
    The prime bumhole is also the head of central intelligence agency(yip), he appointed his cousin as director. His cousin (with order of the prime floufl) order the sub director of CIA Greece to put a bug in the phones off all political opposition leader(yip yip). The thing got out and now the cousin and second director resigned.....
    What? You thought that a trail would be held? Ahhaaaaa, youresofunny. The prime idiot is whistling in the rain as nothing happened, like he did not order his cousin. All good yolll. So take notes and learn!
    Last edited by sapator; Aug 5th, 2022 at 07:46 PM. Reason: MUYA
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  27. #67
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    This I like. It states his opinion. It makes having a discussion very straight forward.
    Me too. That's part of my frustration. I think a great deal of what Dil posts has substance and I suspect I agree with a lot of it. Trouble is it can be like getting blood out of a stone to get at what it is.

    Actually, Dil, I want to apologise for that last post and, to a lesser extent, ^ that paragraph. From some to and fro we'd finally got to a place where you'd made clear the point you were making and I'd understood that point. What I should have done at that point was let the manner of your prior posting drop and concentrate on the substance of your point.

    So, yeah, I agree with you that too much money is extremely deleterious to American politics. I had thought that transparency was a large part of the problem but, from TG's posts, I'm starting to doubt that as it seems everything substantive has to be and is being declared. This does leave me wondering why big money is such a thing in US politics when it's not over here.

    I don't agree that that article demonstrates anything underhanded has been going on in that race although I'm surely not in a position to say it hasn't. I do find it disturbing that you've got Conservative PACs contributing to Dem races but, as I said up stream, there's been examples of Dems doing the same in Rep races so I feel I can only condemn both sides for behaviour.
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  28. #68
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    Quote Originally Posted by sapator View Post
    What? You thought that a trail would be held? Ahhaaaaa, youresofunny. The prime idiot is whistling in the rain as nothing happened, like he did not order his cousin. All good yolll. So take notes and learn!
    Nixon couldn't whistle.
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  29. #69
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    This does leave me wondering why big money is such a thing in US politics when it's not over here.
    Watch out. It wasn't always this way in the US, or was localized to presidential races. What works gets repeated.
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  30. #70
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Nixon couldn't whistle.
    Nixon resigned.

    Also if you cannot whistle there is an owl whistle trick you can do, closing both hands.I use it to attract politicians to the pit.
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  31. #71
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    Quote Originally Posted by sapator View Post
    Nixon resigned.

    Also if you cannot whistle there is an owl whistle trick you can do, closing both hands.I use it to attract politicians to the pit.
    Closing both hands??? Isn't that usually called 'clapping'?
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Closing both hands??? Isn't that usually called 'clapping'?
    No, it's called making a fist. Duh!!!!

  33. #73

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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    No, it's called making a fist. Duh!!!!
    I thought it was praying...
    Please remember next time...elections matter!

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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    I thought it was praying...
    That's how I pray. I have anger issues.

  35. #75
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    Fff,
    What exactly where you doing when you where kids?
    Btw this falls into the category of, if you don't know something don't try to be be a smartaffs, it will eventually turn against you.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3ttreU6ugk
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  36. #76
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    Oh, THAT's what you were talking about. I've been doing that for most of my life. That's only one way to do it. The more fingers you fold in on your right hand, the higher the pitch. The highest note is with what amounts to a closed fist on your right hand, but that one's kind of hard, as there isn't much of a chamber at all.

    A variation on that whistle is to put a blade of grass between your thumbs such that it acts as a reed. Some types of grass don't work for this as they are either two stiff (in which case you might be able to cut them in half lengthwise), or too flimsy (in which case they just break). If you get the right type of grass, the sound can be quite loud.
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  37. #77
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    Yes.
    Anyhow why did you(plural) lock the 6th rioter thread? What happened? They where kindly bushing each other.
    ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ
    πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν·

  38. #78
    PowerPoster
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    They where kindly bushing each other
    lol

    I like the way that sounds. I can just see them brushing each others hair. Till they both just look fabulous!!!

  39. #79
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    why did you(plural) lock the 6th rioter thread?
    That came down from the admins and I think they were right to do it. It was getting flamey.

    Sadly, I'm getting to the point where I think we might have to start banning certain topics of conversation. I don't like that idea and it goes against my nature but the forum keeps turning toxic lately.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  40. #80
    King of sapila
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    It depends.
    If the forum has any gain from advanced views in general then it's suicide.
    The covid thread going on for 2 years with hard confrontations (you're welcome, I won) brought half a mil, while the what song you are listening going on from 2002 has 300.000 views. So if that says something from a marketing point of view, since vb6 (that has the most views) is bound to decline every day and .net (VB but also possibly in general) is really not the cheese for many developers out there, if they want to allow only the last unicorn rainbow with tea news then be my guest but they will lose a LOT of site hits.
    And note I don't mean starting thread for guns (oh, wait...) drugs of killings. Admins are beginning to get touchy for less significant issues, I would suggest cooling down a bit. Maybe vacations or a hamburger or out for coffee.
    Last edited by sapator; Aug 11th, 2022 at 05:44 AM.
    ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ
    πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν·

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