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Thread: UK politics versus USA

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    UK politics versus USA

    The UK has forced the resignation of their Prime Minister for among other things a lack of integrity. Trump was impeached twice, underhandly fought the transition of power, and his "Trump World" is one of the worst things to happen in American politics yet half the country would elect him again. So go the breaks...
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    I don't think half the country wants Trump but over half the country is unhappy with the current administration. so since Trumps seems to have control over the Republican party, he would be elected at this point in time.

    The steep rise in gas/groceries/housing will probably have devastating effects for Democrats in the mid terms. It doesn't matter if this inflation is their fault or not.

    I can't really comment on UK politics.

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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    I don't think half the country wants Trump but over half the country is unhappy with the current administration. so since Trumps seems to have control over the Republican party, he would be elected at this point in time.

    The steep rise in gas/groceries/housing will probably have devastating effects for Democrats in the mid terms. It doesn't matter if this inflation is their fault or not.

    I can't really comment on UK politics.
    My point is the USA has pretty low standards for being the president. We elected an old man to get rid of a despot.
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    My point is the USA has pretty low standards for being the president. We elected an old man to get rid of a despot.
    lol, True

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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    I don't think the divide is as stark as you think. Boris still has people phoning in to news shows actually in tears because Boris has resigned and citing "remoaner conspiracy theories". We've got our share of denial over here too. And you should consider that it took him lying about appointing a known sex pest before his party finally turned on him so it doesn't feel like we've set the bar particularly high. I do think our system is somewhat healthier than yours but it still feels like we're racing you to the bottom sometimes.

    he would be elected at this point in time
    I'm not so sure. I think he'd still lose but I also think he's about the only Republican who'd lose it for the Republicans. If just about anyone else was on the Republican ticket they'd romp home.

    I'm curious to hear from some of you guys over there about the Jan 6th hearings though. I get the impression they're shifting the opinions quite heavily amongst swing voters and even moving some dedicated Republicans. Is that real of just coming from the reporting we get over here?
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    I'm curious to hear from some of you guys over there about the Jan 6th hearings though. I get the impression they're shifting the opinions quite heavily amongst swing voters and even moving some dedicated Republicans. Is that real of just coming from the reporting we get over here?
    I don't know, I haven't seen any polls. I get the feeling that the Trump haters are happy and saying "see I told ya so" and the Trump lovers are ignoring any evidence while yelling "witch hunt". The swing voter had probably already decide how they feel about Jan. 6th. I see these hearings as the usual political theater. But I hope I'm wrong.

    As for if he would be elected, we'll see, it's quite far away and things could change. But about everyone I know is upset about this giant leap in inflation. Gas, groceries, housing. It's really hitting people where it hurts, their wallet. lol

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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    With the witch hunt fizzling as it ignores the roles of Capitol Police and the FBI agents provocateur the media has recently turned to a narrative of racism. Most of the coverage goes like "These were mostly white guys. They come from counties that have seen some population shift from nearly all white to somewhat more mixed race over the last 50 years. Therefore January 6th was about racism."

    It is all getting more and more desperate as the case falls apart and elections grow near.

    Locally I'm seeing some weird **** going on in Summer campaigning. The latest is a big glossy flyer I got that talks about one Dem running to beat another in a coming Primary election here. The new Dem says that her opposed Dem has a political consulting business that has been helping one or more Rep candidates campaign on anti-LGBTLSMFT platforms, so "Vote for me, not her!"

    This tells me two things: the rats drunk on the cheese fumes of an election are turning on each other, and the reddest and bluest rats are essentially the same anyway.

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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    With the witch hunt fizzling as it ignores the roles of Capitol Police and the FBI agents provocateur the media has recently turned to a narrative of racism. Most of the coverage goes like "These were mostly white guys. They come from counties that have seen some population shift from nearly all white to somewhat more mixed race over the last 50 years. Therefore January 6th was about racism."
    I don't know from where you came up with that view. Is this one of Dore's Delusions. I've not heard any mutterings that Capitol police caused the riot. The only criticism I've heard was they should have been better prepared. Which was the Trump supporters trying to deflect blame. I'm sure there was some Trump loyalist or QAnon follower that claimed FBI agents were provocateurs but no credible news outlet ever made those claims.

    But you just made those claims, so there's that.

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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    Not much help in grinding axes, but this might be of interest:

    Americans' Intensity Running High Before U.S. Midterms

    "A recent Gallup poll finds Americans giving more thought to November's elections for Congress than usual at this stage of the campaign and expressing above-average enthusiasm about voting. They are also placing unusually high importance on certain issues -- including the economy, gun policy and abortion -- in determining their vote for Congress."

    It also admits that this polling was done before several recent high twitch events had occurred.

    There is a bit more meat to chew at this page:

    Usual Midterm Indicators Very Unfavorable for Democrats

    At least it isn't wrapped in paywalls and nag balloons.
    Last edited by dilettante; Jul 9th, 2022 at 12:53 PM.

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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    as it ignores the roles of Capitol Police and the FBI agents provocateur
    If you're going for the whole "Jan 6th was a false flag operation engineered by Pelosi" schtick you're swimming in some pretty deep conspiracy holes.

    Usual Midterm Indicators Very Unfavorable for Democrats
    I'm inclined to say you're right about that though.
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    Corporate funded left wing mouthpiece NPR:

    Capitol Police Suspends 6 Officers, Investigates Dozens More After Capitol Riots

    Videos from the day of the attack appear to show some officers escorting rioters inside the building. In one video, USCP officers can be seen opening barricades allowing the mob to enter the Capitol complex without resistance.
    So, a clear admission there. Hard to deny video evidence I guess.

    Capitol Police Officer, Brian Sicknick died of injuries suffered during the riots.
    Just one item amid the wall of fake news there. An admission months later:

    Capitol Police Officer Brian Sicknick Died Of Natural Causes, Medical Examiner Rules

    U.S. Capitol Police Officer Brian Sicknick, who engaged with pro-Trump rioters during the Jan. 6 insurrection, died of natural causes the day after the attack, Washington, D.C.'s chief medical examiner announced Monday

    Yes, the more you look at the facts the clearer it is that this is a politically motivated witch hunt and propaganda event. Time to pull your head out of the reality distortion field.

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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    Capitol Police Suspends 6 Officers, Investigates Dozens More After Capitol Riots
    Yeah lets look at that article, the very first paragraph,

    The U.S. Capitol Police has suspended six officers with pay for their actions on Jan. 6, when a pro-Trump mob attacked the U.S. Capitol in an attempt to stop the certification of President Biden's Electoral College victory, according to a department statement.
    So it was definitely politically motivated but not by the left.

    Then,

    At least 140 Capitol Police officers sustained injuries during the riot, according to a statement by Gus Papathanasiou, chairman of the USCP Labor Committee, the union representing Capitol Police officers.

    "I have officers who were not issued helmets prior to the attack who have sustained brain injuries. One officer has two cracked ribs and two smashed spinal discs. One officer is going to lose his eye, and another was stabbed with a metal fence stake," he said.
    Of course there's and investigation. the only reality distortion is thinking the political left orchestrated this. It's not that complicated, Trump incited a mob to riot and the Capital Police were not properly prepared. Now everyone is trying to cover their arse.

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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    The Capitol Police has the staffing level of Boston but only 2 square miles of jurisdiction. It is hard to conceive that they were not in control of security throughout the entire event.

    Insurrection? Coup Attempt? A baseless and outrageous conspiracy theory.

    Now they plan to keep on running show trials well into 2023. But I'll be surprised if voters don't shut it all down this fall. Then the real investigations can begin.

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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    With the witch hunt fizzling as it ignores the roles of Capitol Police and the FBI agents provocateur the media has recently turned to a narrative of racism. Most of the coverage goes like "These were mostly white guys. They come from counties that have seen some population shift from nearly all white to somewhat more mixed race over the last 50 years. Therefore January 6th was about racism."

    It is all getting more and more desperate as the case falls apart and elections grow near.

    Locally I'm seeing some weird **** going on in Summer campaigning. The latest is a big glossy flyer I got that talks about one Dem running to beat another in a coming Primary election here. The new Dem says that her opposed Dem has a political consulting business that has been helping one or more Rep candidates campaign on anti-LGBTLSMFT platforms, so "Vote for me, not her!"

    This tells me two things: the rats drunk on the cheese fumes of an election are turning on each other, and the reddest and bluest rats are essentially the same anyway.
    It is pretty obvious you are not watching/following them. Only someone that isn't would say those things
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    It is pretty obvious you are not watching/following them
    True dat.

    Nobodies denying that some police stood aside and even escorted insurrectionists into the building and we're pretty disgusted by it. The fallacy is to associate that with a deliberate leftist false flag conspiracy. It appears to have come from two sources:-
    1. those sympathetic to the insurrection
    2. those who realised the fight was already lost and stood aside out of self preservation
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    True dat.

    Nobodies denying that some police stood aside and even escorted insurrectionists into the building and we're pretty disgusted by it. The fallacy is to associate that with a deliberate leftist false flag conspiracy. It appears to have come from two sources:-
    1. those sympathetic to the insurrection
    2. those who realised the fight was already lost and stood aside out of self preservation
    If he was watching he would know the real insurrectionists were in the White House watching the puppets act out their plans.
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    Well maybe after this falls flat in 2023 they can have yet another "impeachment" show trial with a scarecrow propped up within the dock, eh?

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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    Great video exposing the roots of Remainer Psychosis and Trump Derangement:


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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    This is interesting. An attempt to form a new centrist party in the US. I don't rate their chances from what I've seen at previous attempts to form new parties over there but it's got some big names signing on. I think your system could really benefit from a serious thirds party, the current two party system is ridiculously polarising.
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    This is interesting. An attempt to form a new centrist party in the US. I don't rate their chances from what I've seen at previous attempts to form new parties over there but it's got some big names signing on. I think your system could really benefit from a serious thirds party, the current two party system is ridiculously polarising.
    I hope it goes Forward, pun intended. Recent third party candidates, I'm thinking Ross Perot and Ralph Nader, didn't fare that well. The other parties blamed them for draining votes from each other. I'm very much for a third party and would pay attention to it. It might even bring the others back from their extreme positions.
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    Iti'll be interesting to watch tho. As a third party member (currently Libertarian Party) I'm all for more parties like this... Depending on what their policies and platform is like, I may or may not consider it. But, they have a long slog of a battle ahead of them.


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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post
    Iti'll be interesting to watch tho. As a third party member (currently Libertarian Party) I'm all for more parties like this... Depending on what their policies and platform is like, I may or may not consider it. But, they have a long slog of a battle ahead of them.


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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    I'm not sure what to expect.

    Perot was probably the last centrist to run for President in any serious way. Before the two-party machine successfully pressured him to drop out he was polling at 40%, but when demand brought him back into the fray he finished at around 18.5% of the popular vote. Losing momentum can be devastating.

    Still, he did far better than any 3rd party candidate had for a very long time previously, and never since. The duopoly has control of too many levers of the process now.


    Looking at the local primary campaigns active here right now makes this very clear. While the hopefuls of the two parties duke it out, all of them seem to be demonizing the other party and tearing down their competition by casting them as collaborating with "the other side of the aisle." The only tangible points they argue their support for are positions on the long agreed upon straw men of abortion, recreational drugs, guns, and law enforcement. On issues like jobs and inflation it goes no deeper than "you must hate the other guys."

    The few 3rd party hopefuls don't get much of a voice at this stage of the game. Most do not have primary challengers, and the rest don't have the funding levels to compete.

    I can't tell you how many slick full color thick-stock large-format mailings I have gotten from the former CIA staffers paradropped in from the DC area to run as Dems here. That's no exaggeration: they brag about being CIA alums in their own campaign materials. But no, there isn't any Deep State at all... wink, wink.

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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    I'm pretty pessimistic about a viable third party in national elections. There's three major problems, money, money, money. $14billion spent on the 2020 presidential election. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/28/2020...-a-record.html

    I'd like to see it happen, just don't think it will any time soon.

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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    It is a pretty uphill battle.

    It isn't as simple as exceeding 1/3 of the vote. You need enough of the vote to ensure neither opposing party candidate can exceed your share. So the stakes automatically rise to exceeding 50%. One can prevail with less, but only if your opponents' appeals are divisive enough to keep their share of the electorate from "clumping" in one corner to defeat you.

    It is also a trap for voters.

    You can be disgusted and opt out of participation. Of course that just takes it out of your hands and you have even more effectively surrendered your fate to the power brokers.

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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    How much of the UK system is a high school production of The Wizard of Oz though? A show for the masses while the real power always does what it will?

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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    Politics is certainly performative in the UK but I don't think it's even close to being as bad as your system appears. I think there are two fundamental differences that make our system healthier:-

    1. Money - or the lack of it. Watching US politics it's not about policies or a campaign run, it's about fund raising. Got more cash than the other guy? You're gonna win. Fund raising's barely a thing here and is viewed with deep suspicion whenever it's mentioned. We certainly have wealthy individuals donating to parties but any whiff of them receiving influence or privilege in return blows up into a major scandal.
    2. We're already a multi party system. Our third party's have historically been able to pull around 25% of the vote (Lib Dems until about 10 years ago and the SNP since) and even our 4th place and lower parties (Greens, Plaid, UKIP etc.) have a significant voice and, while they aren't going to win elections, they can move the needle on their chosen issues.

    I don't think our system's great, though, and you can see much better systems around Europe and the Antipodes. In particular, I like the proportional representation systems so many other countries have adopted.
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    1. Money - or the lack of it. Watching US politics it's not about policies or a campaign run, it's about fund raising. Got more cash than the other guy? You're gonna win. Fund raising's barely a thing here and is viewed with deep suspicion whenever it's mentioned. We certainly have wealthy individuals donating to parties but any whiff of them receiving influence or privilege in return blows up into a major scandal.
    That's interesting. How are successful campaigns ran in the UK? Here it's TV ads, mailers, social media, rallies. Companies are hired to find the talking points that will produce the most votes or the ads that will produce votes. Plus much more.

    You guys are in the process of electing a new PM, right?

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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    So, Boris did resign?

    The issue with US politics, as I see it, is that most people don't really like either candidate, but they REALLY dislike one more than they really dislike the other, so there may be quite a bit of 'strategic' voting going on. In that case, a third party candidate is doomed, unless they have so much positive support that it outweighs the negative support for one of the two parties. For example, Perot may well have been polling at 40%, but his final vote was much lower. Was that really because he lost momentum, or was it because, in the end, many of the people who supported him felt that voting for Bush (Sr) was a better strategic vote than voting for Perot? If so, they were probably right, it's just that too many still voted for Perot because they actually liked him.
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    How are successful campaigns ran in the UK?
    Much the same as yours but on a MUCH smaller scale. So our parties do run ads but they call them "Party Political Broadcasts". They tend to be be very dry rather than the gun totin', flag wavin' extravaganzas your parties run - I'm genuinely doubtful that they change more than a handful of minds and most folks just switch over. Local MPS will campaign door to door but not at the same saturating scale that your guys seem to - I'll get maybe one visit and, if I'm out, they're unlikely to circle back and try again. I'll get one leaflet from each party with a lite version of their manifesto. That's about it as far as a "campaign" is concerned.

    Actually, most of the work is done through the news media which is, of course, free to the candidates. They'll go on political talk shows and news shows and thrash it out in debates. But it's worth bearing in mind that our TV news media isn't partisan like yours. In fact, a lack of political bias is written in to the licensing terms a broadcaster has to abide by. Even the Murdoch owned Sky News doesn't exhibit any real bias over here which is where you'd expect it if anywhere.

    Our print media, on the other hand, is thoroughly partisan but, honestly, not many people consume it any more. Mind you, the Sun was claiming to have won the election for the Tories in 92 and that was probably a valid claim. Their power has diminished to pretty much nothing since the millennium though.

    So I guess my answer would be that our parties barely "campaign" at all, at least by the US definition of the term. What they do is debate on largely unbiased platforms and appear on news shows where anchors grill them in confrontational but largely unbiased ways.

    Worryingly, though, I think that's changing and we're getting an increasing number of very partisan outlets. On the right you've got NewsNow and TalkTV. I can't think of a left wing outlet off the top of my head (I'm sure there are some though) but we've got brands like LBC which are unbiased in that they contain a roughly even spread of thoroughly biased presenters - so I guess that ends up being the same in effect as two partisan channels. These channels typically get around the TV licensing requirements by styling themselves as radio shows and then live streaming to the internet - making them TV channels in effect.

    So, Boris did resign?
    Yes. What he didn't do was leave.

    The issue with US politics, as I see it, is that most people don't really like either candidate, but they REALLY dislike one more than they really dislike the other,
    I agree and I think this is one of the major problems with a two party system (as well as being an impediment to changing it as you describe). In a two party system, voting against Candidate A is effectively the same as voting for Candidate B. Since negative emotions are much easier to trigger than positive ones, this creates an incentive for parties to run entirely negative campaigns. In a three (or more) party system, negative campaigning is still a thing but parties are also highly incentivized to run positive campaigns because party A isn't just trying to drive voters away from party B, they're trying to make sure that they then switch to party A rather party C, D or E.
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    I would think you'd need a parliamentary system for that to work. In a (reasonably) strong presidential system, such as the US has, the breakdown in Congress doesn't matter so much. Heck, it's about as broken down as it can be, with just two parties. Add in a third or fourth party, and it wouldn't be less broken, they'd just end up taking one side or another and we'd have a different form of gridlock, while the president would end up doing whatever they could by executive order. If the coalitions in Congress coalesce to elect the executive, in some fashion, then the factions would matter. There wouldn't be just two of them that way. With the president effectively independent of the makeup of Congress, the two are independent battlegrounds.
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    The president and congress are separate but the popularity of a president (or lack of) can affect congressional races. I disliked Trump so much that when I voted, it was strictly party lines. I've never done that before. I'm not even a democrat. lol

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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    In a (reasonably) strong presidential system
    Interestingly, being "presidential" is a criticism over here. We really don't like the thought of too much power being in a single persons hands.

    I guess our queen is the technical equivalent of your president in that she's the head of state but she has no practical powers. She certainly doesn't have the power to pardon or pass executive orders and her even expressing an opinion is considered a big thing and often scandalous (something Charles has suffered from even though a cursory glance at the opinions he's expressed over the years reveal that he's been right far more often than he's been wrong). Weirdly, in this regard, I think our system is less of an autocracy than yours in practice even though it's probably more of one in law.
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    Take a look at these 5 minutes and note the role of money in manipulating the Primary election here yesterday:



    Will of the people, be damned. Get in there with that corporate globalist cash pile and tamper, tamper, tamper!

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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    Honestly, I'm not going to because I can't be bothered and past experience tells me I'm likely to reach a different conclusion to you anyway. When you simply post videos it comes across as a kind of gatekeeping - it comes across as "if you can't be bothered to watch all the same media as me you are uninformed".

    Rather than simply post videos, why don't you take a more traditional academic approach. I.e. explicitly state the point or argument you want to make and then post the video as a cited source (ideally with timestamps if it's very long). Personally, I end up ignoring most of what you post because I simply don't want to spend the time on your videos - nor should I have to. That isn't because I'm not interested in what you've got to say, I just can't be arsed with the work I have to do to work out what it is.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill

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  36. #36
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    So "thy eye offends thee" and you pluck it out.

  37. #37
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    I'll read posts, but I rarely watch videos...unless they're funny. The problem I have with videos is that they are specifically edited to sell a certain position. The weak parts of their argument are skipped over quickly, the strong points are dwelt upon. That can make it look like the argument is solid when it is deeply flawed.

    However, in this case, I think I know what the video says, and if I'm right, I agree with it. Money in politics is the biggest issue in the US. The ability to pour unlimited money into any race is now enshrined by the courts, despite it being clearly a bad idea. There are some limits on what can be given to a candidate, but that's unimportant. There are numerous organizations not directly (or at least not officially) connected with a candidate, and there is NO limit on what can be given to them. Therefore, the bulk of the ads can be paid for by groups other than the candidates. Those ads tend to be negative, since it's easier to attack than defend, in politics. There's no limit, nor even a requirement for transparency, when it comes to funding those groups.

    It's not easy to limit that funding. Going for transparency should be easier, but the funding of political ads is so sophisticated at this point that it is not always easy to define what is a political ad. If some group is consistently running ads supporting a certain point of view, including running them not around an election, then they aren't political ads, even though they push a certain view that can only really be enforced by politicians. I can think of examples of this in Idaho, though they are a bit too obscure to be relayed here. There's a group that bangs on about one topic, which the average person has no say in, but which politicians can influence, and the average person can influence their politicians about. Is that a political ad? Technically, it could be, but it probably isn't. It's also a topic that is not exactly controversial, and they aren't pushing any clear direction on the topic (at least, I'm not sure what their point is), but the only thing they can hope to be doing is influencing the public such that the public influences the direction of governmental regulation. So it's political, yet not what most would consider a political ad campaign, and it runs all year every year, not just around elections.
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    The news clip doesn't present a position, it just relates what happened and notes that embarrassingly vast amounts of cash were dropped into campaigns to influence the elections. In some cases candidates from the other party were identified as "weak and easily defeated in the General" so money was spent to puff them up to win their Primaries.

  39. #39
    Smooth Moperator techgnome's Avatar
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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    The news clip doesn't present a position, it just relates what happened and notes that embarrassingly vast amounts of cash were dropped into campaigns to influence the elections. In some cases candidates from the other party were identified as "weak and easily defeated in the General" so money was spent to puff them up to win their Primaries.
    You say this like it's some Great Revelation or something .... ummm... yeah. This has been a part of politics for some time. It's why Biden got nominated and not Hillary ... It's why there's crapton of PACs and Super PACs out there... it's why you see the commercials that conclude with the "Not affiliated with Candidate XYZ" ... It's also the dangerous side of open primaries where anyone can vote on any ticket regardless of party membership/affiliation. In the spring you vote for the weakest candidate of the opposition party ... and hope that person "wins" so your candidate can go up against them in the fall. blah blah blah... it's nothing new to the table. It's Politics 120.

    -tg
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  40. #40

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    Re: UK politics versus USA

    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post
    You say this like it's some Great Revelation or something .... ummm... yeah. This has been a part of politics for some time. It's why Biden got nominated and not Hillary ... It's why there's crapton of PACs and Super PACs out there... it's why you see the commercials that conclude with the "Not affiliated with Candidate XYZ" ... It's also the dangerous side of open primaries where anyone can vote on any ticket regardless of party membership/affiliation. In the spring you vote for the weakest candidate of the opposition party ... and hope that person "wins" so your candidate can go up against them in the fall. blah blah blah... it's nothing new to the table. It's Politics 120.

    -tg
    I switched parties to vote for Trump in the Ohio primaries trying to "spoil it" for republicans. That didn't work out. The democrats are doing the same thing in the republican primaries now trying to get the nut cases in the race. They should have asked me about that first...it can backfire.
    Please remember next time...elections matter!

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