Stop whining - just get numb

[TysonLPrice]

The deadliest U.S. school shooting in a decade shakes a rural Texas town

Let's get out of denial mode...this is not big news in the USA. Let's stop with "tears and prayers". It is just BS. This is America...we accept this. A little bit of outrage and some hand wringing but just move on, business as usual.

How are you going to get around to half the population thinks it is their right to own the most high powered weapons they can afford. The US is around 4% of the world's population and we own 44% of civilian guns in the world.

[sapator]

Well it comes down to the weapon companies. There are billions of $ at stake here so if they can't have it their way and the guns are legal there, good for them.
Of course bad for the people that eventually experience the results of this but since I don't know the weapon culture in US and I don't want to just write something out of the blue, I will stand aside.
I just want to say that a mass murder, here, would certainly not be treated with just BS attitude but if people there have developed such black hearted behavior on such occasions then, there is, at least in my point of view, something going wrong. Of course we see those mass murders over there a lot so, yeah, I kinda feel sorry for people taking it to the limit but this goes deeper in the roots of society and haven't really thought about it, since we don't get these incidents here.

[2kaud]

Why was the shooter ever allowed to legally own a gun? From what I've read/heard on TV etc IMO he should never have got anywhere near a gun. If America is going to allow legal gun ownership, then IMO they need to seriously and urgently review the criteria for ownership.

[TysonLPrice]

Why was the shooter ever allowed to legally own a gun? From what I've read/heard on TV etc IMO he should never have got anywhere near a gun. If America is going to allow legal gun ownership, then IMO they need to seriously and urgently review the criteria for ownership.

There was no indication at the time he should not be sold one. He had just turned 18. He was old enough to by a high powered rifle and hundreds of rounds of ammo but was too young to buy a beer. The age for that in Texas is 21.

[PlausiblyDamp]

Why was the shooter ever allowed to legally own a gun? From what I've read/heard on TV etc IMO he should never have got anywhere near a gun. If America is going to allow legal gun ownership, then IMO they need to seriously and urgently review the criteria for ownership.

Never going to happen though, any attempt to put checks in place just seem to be be blocked. The gun lobbies seem to hold too much power and the profits made by the weapons companies carries a lot of weight. Interestingly enough though the NRA who insist that guns aren't the problem are not allowing guns at one of their upcoming conferences https://www.npr.org/2022/05/25/11011...=1653555128144 - which makes you wonder if they honestly think they aren't a problem.

Then again, not being from the US I just find it so peculiar that you can legally buy a gun before you can legally buy a beer.

[TysonLPrice]

Never going to happen though, any attempt to put checks in place just seem to be be blocked. The gun lobbies seem to hold too much power and the profits made by the weapons companies carries a lot of weight. Interestingly enough though the NRA who insist that guns aren't the problem are not allowing guns at one of their upcoming conferences https://www.npr.org/2022/05/25/11011...=1653555128144 - which makes you wonder if they honestly think they aren't a problem.

Then again, not being from the US I just find it so peculiar that you can legally buy a gun before you can legally buy a beer.

The NRA are not the ones not allowing guns. Trump is going to be there and the Secret Service is not allowing guns. Remember the gun didn't kill all those children, it was the shooter.

[Delaney]

Then again, not being from the US I just find it so peculiar that you can legally buy a gun before you can legally buy a beer.

it is to be sure that you know what you are going to do with your gun before becoming drunk...

[TysonLPrice]

Then again, not being from the US I just find it so peculiar that you can legally buy a gun before you can legally buy a beer.

I think it has to do with federal highway funds...

In July 1984, a Federal law was enacted establishing a national minimum drinking age of 21 years. Public Law 98-363 required that a portion of Federal aid highway funds be withheld from those States that had not, by law, established 21 years as the minimum drinking age by September 30, 1986

[TysonLPrice]

In the state I live in, starting this June, anyone that is 18 or older and eligible to own a gun can carry it concealed. I had to get a background check by law enforcement. Not just calling in but an actual investigation. And twelve hours of training. Next week an eighteen year-old can buy a handgun, stick it in his pocket, and legally walk the streets.

Edit: The age limit is twenty-one.

[PlausiblyDamp]

In the state I live in, starting this June, anyone that is 18 or older and eligible to own a gun can carry it concealed. I had to get a background check by law enforcement. Not just calling in but an actual investigation. And twelve hours of training. Next week an eighteen year-old can buy a handgun, stick it in his pocket, and legally walk the streets.

Edit: The age limit is twenty-one.

I find that absolutely terrifying, the thought that anyone can just go and buy a gun without checks or training seems like madness.

[TysonLPrice]

I find that absolutely terrifying, the thought that anyone can just go and buy a gun without checks or training seems like madness.

That madness is extremely common across the states. Until recently carrying it concealed required special training and permits. The latest push in republican states is to allow anyone that can legally carry a gun to hide it on their body.

[techgnome]

Here in SC they recently enacted open permit cary ... Which means you can now legally open cary as long as you have a conceal cary permit. They stopped just short of constitutional cary (which means you wouldn't need a permit of any kind).

Unfortunately I think Tyson's right ... there'll be some hand wringing, thoughts and prayers, call to action ... and then it'll fizzle and fade into the background.
Personally I think what needs to happen is that all current gun laws need to be thrown out - hear me out - and new laws that actually make sense .. the current laws cause things like this:


Honestly I don't see how anyone can competently follow any of that. Like taxes, things need to be simplified into something coherent. Currently things are such a patchwork of knee-jerk legislation that there's probably more holes in it than my colander.

-tg

[TysonLPrice]

Congress is going one Memorial weekend break...there will be some democratic and republicans politicians getting sound bites in the media when they get back but nothing substantial will happen.

While there are children being buried tomorrow Texas Senator Ted Cruz and Texas Governor Greg Abbot will be guest speakers at the NRA convention being held in Texas. Both have A+ NRA ratings.

[FunkyDexter]

I've been saying for a while that gun ownership isn't the problem, it's your fetishization of violence. However, your gun laws sure do enable that fetishization to turn lethal.

To put this in perspective, guns are now the top cause of death for children in the USA.

I honestly don't know the answer. I think you need to address the social problems that lead to this but that is going to be VERY hard and uncertain. In the meantime, stricter gun laws would at least help.



Edit> Oh yeah, and people need to stop blaming this stuff on "mental illness". Every other country in the world has mentally ill people without exhibiting the same levels of violence. The USA didn't have this problem back in the 80s.

[TysonLPrice]

I've been saying for a while that gun ownership isn't the problem, it's your fetishization of violence. However, your gun laws sure do enable that fetishization to turn lethal.

To put this in perspective, guns are now the top cause of death for children in the USA.

I honestly don't know the answer. I think you need to address the social problems that lead to this but that is going to be VERY hard and uncertain. In the meantime, stricter gun laws would at least help.



Edit> Oh yeah, and people need to stop blaming this stuff on "mental illness". Every other country in the world has mentally ill people without exhibiting the same levels of violence. The USA didn't have this problem back in the 80s.

We have a political party that will not allow gun violence to be studied as a public heath issue even though it is killing so many young people as you mentioned. If one side even attempts to pass a law that in anyway even "smells" like gun control it is dead on arrival.

[techgnome]

stricter gun laws would at least help.

I keep hearing that, but I've yet to see anyone define what "stricter laws" that are needed. The problem is that by "stricter" people mean "close loopholes" which leads to the crap restrictions that make the graphic I posted happen. I wish I still had it, or remember where I saw it, but there's a graphic that shows how a handgun can be legal or not based on:
If it has a buttstock on it ... legal, unless it's either foldup (illegal) or permanent (illegal) or detachable (legal), or permanent (which remember is illegal) but with the pistol grip changed so that it is at an angle (making it legal again, because now it's technically no longer a pistol, but a rifle ???? ***?) or removed. It's a series of if-then-elseif-elseif-elseif-else statements sometimes.

-tg

[TysonLPrice]

I keep hearing that, but I've yet to see anyone define what "stricter laws" that are needed. The problem is that by "stricter" people mean "close loopholes" which leads to the crap restrictions that make the graphic I posted happen. I wish I still had it, or remember where I saw it, but there's a graphic that shows how a handgun can be legal or not based on:
If it has a buttstock on it ... legal, unless it's either foldup (illegal) or permanent (illegal) or detachable (legal), or permanent (which remember is illegal) but with the pistol grip changed so that it is at an angle (making it legal again, because now it's technically no longer a pistol, but a rifle ???? ***?) or removed. It's a series of if-then-elseif-elseif-elseif-else statements sometimes.

-tg

When assault rifles where banned for a while those loopholes kicked right in. It was called a thumb stock. It was the very same gun but instead of a solid stock they cut a big thumb hole in it and it became legal. As you mentioned that makes creating laws to control guns like whack-a-mole.

[dilettante]

Two interesting maps:

Where Americans Are Killed By Guns: US Homicide & Suicide Death Rates

They map rates per capita. It appears to show high gun homicide rates concentrated in Biden Country, and high suicide rates in the Rural West.

Across the US, the average homicide rate from firearms was 3.55 per 100,000 people in 2013. What’s quite striking is that rates are much higher in the Southern states, but also in parts of California and big cities in the north such as Washington, Detroit and Chicago.

What’s notably missing are high death rates in the Western states that were seen in the first map. That’s because while gun related homicides killed 11,208 people in 2013, 21,175 people committed suicide using a gun.

I suppose the obvious conclusion is that Democrats are a danger to others while Western Republicans are a danger to themselves. That sounds like a good case to make to Republicans: getting rid of guns is in their own interest.

[FunkyDexter]

It appears to show high gun homicide rates concentrated in Biden Country

Hard to tell from the graphic but I suspect that's to do with gun violence and democratic voters both corelating with urbanisation.

I keep hearing that, but I've yet to see anyone define what "stricter laws" that are needed

Some are easily defined, though. Background checks and licences should be required for any firearm.

[TysonLPrice]

Here is a feel for how they do it in Germany:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/worl...-a4366996.html

I like some of them but this will make it impossible in the US

German gun laws restricts the acquisition, possession, and carrying of firearms to those with a creditable need for a weapon.

Our Supreme Court wouldn't let that happen.

[techgnome]

Background checks and licences should be required for any firearm.

and for the most part, they are. I bought a collector's item a while back, I still had to go through a FFL and fill out forms to pick it up.
Problem 1 - there's still the illegal gun sales that happen
Problem 2 - even when the sale is legal, sometimes things don't show up for years (as was the case in TX this week... when the guns were purchaced, there wasn't anything that was in his past that was a red flag).

I'm not trying to make excuses, just pointing out where the problems lie.
In addition to background checks and license (which I'm a little iffy on, mostly due to my existing collection) I'd also add minimum age restrictions. Unfortunately that's not going to stop the outcast from raiding his parent's arsenal and doing damage with it. ... shrug ... honestly I'm not sure I have the answers either... I do believe the current patchwork isn't working.

-tg

[wes4dbt]

We have a political party that will not allow gun violence to be studied as a public heath issue even though it is killing so many young people as you mentioned. If one side even attempts to pass a law that in anyway even "smells" like gun control it is dead on arrival.

I agree that politics and money play a role with all this pro gun nonsense. But the bigger role is played by the the American people. If there was enough desire by the people, we would elect people that were anti gun.

I also agree that there will be the usual outrage for a while but nothing will change.

I'll just throw this in, it will let you know where I stand. What laws should be have? Ban them all. It wont stop all the killings but it's a lot harder to kill 20 people with a knife.

[dilettante]

"Retail" (one at a time) gun deaths dramatically outstrip the mass shootings that the media corporations like to make money from.

[TysonLPrice]

I agree that politics and money play a role with all this pro gun nonsense. But the bigger role is played by the the American people. If there was enough desire by the people, we would elect people that were anti gun.

I also agree that there will be the usual outrage for a while but nothing will change.

I'll just throw this in, it will let you know where I stand. What laws should be have? Ban them all. It wont stop all the killings but it's a lot harder to kill 20 people with a knife.

How about using the same requirements needed to drive a car. You need to prove your ability to use one safely and know the rules to get a license just to go out and buy one. Maybe even some kind of required insurance. That little bit of hassle might slow purchases down.

[wes4dbt]

"Retail" (one at a time) gun deaths dramatically outstrip the mass shootings that the media corporations like to make money from.

Of coarse, the media is going to give there air time to the story that will draw the most people. But the two things don't negate each other, they are all part of the bigger problem. I haven't looked in a while but I think that @ 60% of gun deaths are from suicide. But that doesn't change the fact we as a nation have a problem related to gun violence. Maybe it's more like FD said, we have a problem with violence in general. An assault rifle makes it very easy.

[sapator]

At least in Greece we are allowed to drink alcohol by...Parental guidance. Meaning no laws (well somewhere stashed maybe in a book but not used).
Does that mean that we get drunk and do the things other foreigners do when they get to Greece (see Rhodes, Crete etc)? No we don't.Do we repay the favor when we visit other countries? No we don't.
Did we get taught by the family? Yes we did. Was it a "don't drink like hell or we will spunk you" ? . Not it wasn't.
So a quick thought is that the US family institution is not a close as some other countries. Just a thought ...

[wes4dbt]

How about using the same requirements needed to drive a car. You need to prove your ability to use one safely and know the rules to get a license just to go out and buy one. Maybe even some kind of required insurance. That little bit of hassle might slow purchases down.

Don't get me wrong. I know banning guns is not on the table. But I do think Tg has a point. We are great at finding ways to get around rules.

[techgnome]

Of course we are... 'cause 'Merica!

-tg

[Shaggy Hiker]

In many (perhaps most) states in the US, if you want to get a hunting license, you have to go through a pretty extensive hunter education course. If you want to get a drivers license, you have to prove competency. If you want to get a Commercial Drivers License (CDL), which I have, you have to go through a pretty extensive extended test consisting of a written test, a mechanical test, a skills test, and a driving test. You also have to perform quite well on all four or else you fail and forfeit the cost of the test.

To get a gun, you can do a whole lot less. To carry one, you can do nothing at all in lots of places.

That puts us in the interesting situation where you have FAR more stringent restrictions on vehicles because they are recognized to be dangerous to others, FAR more stringent restrictions if you want to shoot animals, but darn near nothing if you want a gun for shooting people.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Edit> Oh yeah, and people need to stop blaming this stuff on "mental illness". Every other country in the world has mentally ill people without exhibiting the same levels of violence. The USA didn't have this problem back in the 80s.

I don't entirely agree with this. We DO have an issue with depression in this country, especially in teens. However, we have also laid out one viable roadmap of how to commit a form of suicide. Severe depression can make a person want to destroy themselves. In most countries, people with severe depression confine the definition of 'themselves' to the person. Most people in this country use the same definition, but we've also set up a template for people to copy. Quite likely, we didn't see this before because we didn't have the template.

[Delaney]

In many (perhaps most) states in the US, if you want to get a hunting license, you have to go through a pretty extensive hunter education course. If you want to get a drivers license, you have to prove competency. If you want to get a Commercial Drivers License (CDL), which I have, you have to go through a pretty extensive extended test consisting of a written test, a mechanical test, a skills test, and a driving test. You also have to perform quite well on all four or else you fail and forfeit the cost of the test.

To get a gun, you can do a whole lot less. To carry one, you can do nothing at all in lots of places.

That puts us in the interesting situation where you have FAR more stringent restrictions on vehicles because they are recognized to be dangerous to others, FAR more stringent restrictions if you want to shoot animals, but darn near nothing if you want a gun for shooting people.

In France, we have the same but with a small addition. If you want to get a gun, you either need a hunting license which need some class and examination and you will be able to buy only hunting weapon or if you want to buy a gun for sport (hand gun or rifle) you will need a sport license and you will go through a police investigation to have it. But to keep this license you will need to be associated to a "gun sport club", shoot at this club and be able to do a minimum of point on the target. (in order to prove that you do that for sport/entertainment and not just to have a weapon) you also will be limited to the number of full ammo or case you will be able to buy. no limitation on the powder or the bullet so you can reload your cases to have new ammo. These gun won't be military or war ones as it is forbidden in France to have military weapons (no you cannot hunt a deer with a Gatling ). Of course if you want to have one military weapon you can always go to some adequate place and buy one illegally.

[SearchingDataOnly]

If there was enough desire by the people, we would elect people that were anti gun.

No, voters will never be able to do that. Just as voters will never be able to elect someone who can truly lead the country.

[wes4dbt]

No, voters will never be able to do that. Just as voters will never be able to elect someone who can truly lead the country.

Like usual, you don't know what your talking about. I've asked multiples times, WHERE did you get all this knowledge of the American people that you pretend to have. But you've never answered. Could it be because all your so called knowledge was provided to you via your government run media.

[Niya]

The topic of gun rights in America is not something I can weigh in on too deeply since I don't live in the US. However, as someone that lives in a country where it's illegal to own a firearm of any kind, I will say this to the Americans here, be thankful you have the right to bear arms. Trust me, the alternative is much worse. You guys should fight tooth and nail to keep that right. Believe me when I tell you that you don't want to live in a country where the only civilians that have firearms are murderous psychopaths that don't care about spending 10+ years in a jail cell. These people end up becoming the de-facto rulers of your neighborhoods because no law abiding citizen wants to risk incarceration owning the means to protect themselves from these psychopaths. I sincerely wish we had the right to bear arms in my country.

[sapator]

That's not going to cope with every country.
We are not all savages you know...
And no, don't be thankful . If you can't control the psychos that does not mean you have to behave like psychos also so you'd be safe. It would be worth fighting for better neighborhoods de militarization...That will never happen in US tho.... So be thankful that you can own guns! ..
Although owning a bazooka seems tempting.....

[SearchingDataOnly]

Like usual, you don't know what your talking about. I've asked multiples times, WHERE did you get all this knowledge of the American people that you pretend to have. But you've never answered. Could it be because all your so called knowledge was provided to you via your government run media.

Do you remember what I once said to you: Not only do you not understand China, you also do not understand your country, the United States.

I know America far better than you, and far better than most Americans. But it's also a blessing to know so little about the truth.

Edit:
As for where I get this knowledge about the US that I pretend to have, I think I replied in great detail in some threads a few years ago. Maybe Shaggy Hiker could tell you the answer.

[Niya]

If you can't control the psychos that does not mean you have to behave like psychos also so you'd be safe.

So letting the psychos do what they want because you have no way to fight back is better. Is this what you're saying?

[sapator]

So letting the psychos do what they want because you have no way to fight back is better. Is this what you're saying?

There is a layer between the psychos and the sane, if it does not implemented properly is probably because the voting was wrong. For years and years. But I wouldn't have gone to the other end. I mean if we are living in the dark ages again fine but even then they had rules of killing relentlessly...Most of the countries do not allow guns but I look outside my window and don't see any psychos....OH FK! THERE IS ONE!.....No sorry that was the mirroo....Ehhmmm, yep, no psychos around!

[jmcilhinney]

I've been saying for a while that gun ownership isn't the problem, it's your fetishization of violence. However, your gun laws sure do enable that fetishization to turn lethal.

It's funny, in a sad way, that those who refuse to accept that guns are any part of the problem can't make the obvious logical step to then conclude that it is American culture and American people who are the problem.

[Niya]

There is a layer between the psychos and the sane

It's called being rich and living behind high walls and security check points. Sadly not all of us can afford this so we have to live among psychos and hope we don't piss them off or they don't want something we have.