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Thread: Supreme Court leak - Roe vs Wade

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    Supreme Court leak - Roe vs Wade

    It is all over the news:

    https://www.reuters.com/world/us/und...ty-2022-05-03/

    I'm not going near the abortion issue itself...I want to comment on the approach the two main political parties. For the most part democrats are outraged at what appears to be the decision coming out against a women's current rights to abortion. The republicans for the most part are outraged that someone leaked it and the democrats are glad about it. I'm not even going to pick a side on it although anyone that follows my posts knows where I land on that.

    Just like the recent posts on censorship and freedom there is all kinds of gray area. It is amazing how quickly the lines were drawn on this though. And what each political party decided to focus on.
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    Re: Supreme Court leak - Roe vs Wade

    I've seen many a right-wing extremists going on about "Democrats this" and "Democrats that" over this like it was planned and executed by Biden, Harris, Pelosi and Ocasio-Cortez. It wasn't. It was one person who didn't like what they saw and wanted people to know about it. I'm not sure whether any laws were broken but I suspect that whoever leaked did violate the terms of their employment. To be frank, I think that right-wing extremists are just whining because, for one thing, they don't know what to do if they're not criticising Democrats and, for another, because they think that this may actually help Democrats in the mid-terms. The fact that so many are using the word "insurrection" in relation to this proves how little they care about what words actually mean. I saw one tweet by (I think) Ben Shapiword claiming that this leak was a deliberate attempt to threaten the health, safety and even lives of those justices who support the decision. One right-wing extremist draws the line and many thousands or even millions of other right-wing extremists swallow the lie. The truly stupid thing is that it's information that would be released officially soon enough anyway, so how can leaking information be an attempt to foment violence against the very people who would be releasing that information themselves? The only people dumber are the Republican politicians who voted for Trump's SCOTUS nominees whom he explicitly stated he was choosing to overturn Roe v Wade and now claim to be shocked and disappointed that they are doing exactly that.

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    Re: Supreme Court leak - Roe vs Wade

    To me the republicans are like the dog the caught the car...now what? For decades they have been pushing an anti-abortion platform and it is welcomed by a large portion of their base. They have been electing local, state, and federal candidates that have to keep "out righting" their opponents in the primaries on the topic. Now they are getting what they wanted, problem is, the large majority of Americans, republican and democrat, believes it is a women's decision, not republican men. I'm deliberately leaving the religious argument out of it. So after all that effort, and the midterms coming up, they are perceived as forcing something on the American people most don't want. There are a number of states that passed "trigger" laws that are written to go into affect if the Supreme Court strikes Roe vs Wade down. Now that is going to happen. I really hope it backfires and the midterms don't go to the opposition party of the current president which is traditional.
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    Re: Supreme Court leak - Roe vs Wade

    Personally I'm strongly pro-choice but I also recognise that it's a nuanced issue and I'm always uncomfortable when, on topics like this, either side states a definitive right or wrong.

    As for who leaked it and why, I don't really care. Presumably the high court were going to announce this soon enough so let them defend it now instead of in a months time. If the timing's politically inconvenient that's a sure sign you're doing something that, as servants of the people, you probably shouldn't.

    I'm not clear on the exact legalities of this but morally this doesn't feel like something the high court should have the remit to do. Roe vs Wade has been law for 50 years and it's precedent is firmly set. Changing that now is not an interpretation of law it's a change to law and that should be in the behest of your legislative, not judicial, branch.

    On a side note, I saw a pro-life protester on the news holding up a sign saying Ban Big Abortion. You can't just put "Big" in front of something and make it bad. I say that as a representative of Big Fora.
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    Re: Supreme Court leak - Roe vs Wade

    This really points out the "red/blue" divisions in this country. On the news that showed states banning abortion and those not (in red and blue). It looks just like the red and blue maps of governing parties. And it also matches the red and blue map of Covid vaccinations and cases. If red or blue decides to go it alone, succeed, we could have civil war.

    Not really but the country sure is divided.
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    Re: Supreme Court leak - Roe vs Wade

    I'm not sure how this issue is a "World Event."

    I do believe it is midterm electioneering rather than any actual concern for anyone's rights. A desperate attempt to shift the focus from current economic strife, failed and unpopular policies, and yet another unpopular war to an issue they think has always been a winner for them.

    I don't think the two parties give a rat's skinny hindquarters about it except as a tool of division.

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    Re: Supreme Court leak - Roe vs Wade

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    Roe vs Wade has been law for 50 years and it's precedent is firmly set.
    It has never been law. That's not how law works. And as for "precedent," the prior 150 years were an even firmer precedent.

    I don't pretend to know what's "right" here though.

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    Re: Supreme Court leak - Roe vs Wade

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    I'm not sure how this issue is a "World Event."

    I do believe it is midterm electioneering rather than any actual concern for anyone's rights. A desperate attempt to shift the focus from current economic strife, failed and unpopular policies, and yet another unpopular war to an issue they think has always been a winner for them.

    I don't think the two parties give a rat's skinny hindquarters about it except as a tool of division.
    I have to disagree with that. This is a real issue felt strongly by the various factions. It has been brewing for decades and now the the balance of the court has changed it is out front. This isn't about teaching CRT in schools, trans in bathrooms, the election was stolen, and all the other "hot button" topics. I think people care and the various political sides also. In other words, maybe it is being used as midterm political fodder, but it is a real issue that people care about. In my opinion.
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    Re: Supreme Court leak - Roe vs Wade

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    I have to disagree with that. This is a real issue felt strongly by the various factions. It has been brewing for decades and now the the balance of the court has changed it is out front. This isn't about teaching CRT in schools, trans in bathrooms, the election was stolen, and all the other "hot button" topics. I think people care and the various political sides also. In other words, maybe it is being used as midterm political fodder, but it is a real issue that people care about. In my opinion.
    Though the politicians use this as a political weapon, at the core of this issue are real people being forced to have children and the consequences of that. As you can tell I'm pro choice but I also have not desire to debate the issue. It just seems that the only thing being talked about is the political consequences.

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    Re: Supreme Court leak - Roe vs Wade

    I don't consider either side of the argument to be "evil," but I'm sure there are suspicious motives to be found on both. For example the adoption lobby, which wants "more white babies" on the market. Then you have wanton promiscuity. Or the denial of biology... the "pregnant man" emoji comes to mind. Or the corporate authoritarians who want everyone in the workforce and dependent on multiple incomes kept as low as possible by flooding the labor pool with sexless drones. Families are bad, m'kay? There is only The State.

    My point is that this is not a binary matter, there is an analog spectrum here. Probably several spectra.

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    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: Supreme Court leak - Roe vs Wade

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    A desperate attempt to shift the focus [...] to an issue they think has always been a winner for them.
    And he we go with the nebulous "they" as though this was a Democratic plot to leak this information, rather than the act of almost certainly a single person.
    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    I don't think the two parties give a rat's skinny hindquarters about it except as a tool of division.
    You seem to care more about the politics than people's rights too.

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    Re: Supreme Court leak - Roe vs Wade

    I mean, it was a garbage ruling to begin with. I am of the opinion that abortion violates a personĎs right to life, which is controversial within Libertarian circles, but even those who disagree with me (and have well thought out arguments) will generally agree that Roe v. Wade was a bad ruling. I mean it was ruled that a right to privacy federally guarantee abortion.

    Per Edward Lazarus (clerk for Justice Harry Blackmun):
    As a matter of constitutional interpretation and judicial method, Roe borders on the indefensible. I say this as someone utterly committed to the right to choose, as someone who believes such a right has grounding elsewhere in the Constitution instead of where Roe placed it, and as someone who loved Roe's author like a grandfather
    But it is very suspicious on two accounts: the opinion was released prematurely and the timing of the release. Roe v. Wade is usually a rallying cry for Democrats and in recent weeks the midterm polling regarding voter enthusiasm for Democrats has been horrendous. What better way to boost support during the summer months (height of midterms) than to prematurely release an opinion that overturns the most controversial ruling of the last 50 years? I can certainly see an incredibly partisan individual justify leaking the opinion.

    Edit - I understand that the abortion issue is mainly an issue of when/how you define life. I am not arguing in favor or against abortion. What I am saying is that a) Roe v. Wade was a bad ruling and b) this appears to have been an effort by an individual to help boost his/her partyís voter enthusiasm.
    Last edited by dday9; May 4th, 2022 at 09:38 PM.
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    Re: Supreme Court leak - Roe vs Wade

    Quote Originally Posted by dday9 View Post
    I am of the opinion that abortion violates a personĎs right to life
    This is the crux of the abortion debate for me. You can't kill a person but you're not doing that if there's no person to kill. That's why abortions are allowed up to a point but late-term abortions are restricted to specific circumstances. The problem is that those who are anti-abortion make claims about what constitutes a person that they can't back up. The most egregious of these is the religious claims about souls. Catholics generally don't believe that the soul enters the body until some point during development, which is why they are often quite OK with abortion early on. Those who believe that the soul enters the body at the moment of conception are far less likely to accept abortion at all. Of course, they rarely make an honest argument about souls outside their own religion because they know they can't back it up, so they make all manner of medical/scientific claims that ignore actual medicine and science.
    Quote Originally Posted by dday9 View Post
    What I am saying is that a) Roe v. Wade was a bad ruling
    Funny how those conservative justices who now appear to agree with you indicated the exact opposite when being interviewed for their position. It's almost like they knew that if they were honest that they'd never get accept in the first place.

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    Re: Supreme Court leak - Roe vs Wade

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    Funny how those conservative justices who now appear to agree with you indicated the exact opposite when being interviewed for their position. It's almost like they knew that if they were honest that they'd never get accept in the first place.
    Oh absolutely. Have you ever heard of Robert Bork? His name is an adjective: ďyou canít say that, you will Bork yourself.Ē

    Most of these justices will evade questions about Roe v. Wade by claiming to believe in stare decisis. They never answer the question, at least not straightforwardly.
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    Re: Supreme Court leak - Roe vs Wade

    Quote Originally Posted by dday9 View Post
    Oh absolutely. Have you ever heard of Robert Bork? His name is an adjective: ďyou canít say that, you will Bork yourself.Ē

    Most of these justices will evade questions about Roe v. Wade by claiming to believe in stare decisis. They never answer the question, at least not straightforwardly.
    I've seen videos of at least two Republican senators saying how shocked and disappointed they are at this decision after voting in favour of Trump's SCOTUS nominees, even after Trump declaring that he was selecting specifically for the purpose of overturning Roe v Wade. I just wonder whether they're lying or they are truly so incompetent as to not have seen through them at the time. I suspect that they are pro-choice and are disappointed at this decision but I doubt that they are truly shocked and simply put their own political survival ahead of abortion rights.

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    Re: Supreme Court leak - Roe vs Wade

    In the words of Captain Renault: I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!
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    Re: Supreme Court leak - Roe vs Wade

    Can't abort 'em? Try to thwart em!



    So draw those curtains and heat up that Discovery+ subscription. You know you're the market for this material.

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    Re: Supreme Court leak - Roe vs Wade

    Please remember next time...elections matter!

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    Re: Supreme Court leak - Roe vs Wade

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    How can you possibly care about that when some kid put makeup on? I mean, Madison Cawthorn dressed up in drag and god put him in a wheelchair for it so won't you think of the children?

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    Re: Supreme Court leak - Roe vs Wade

    They are not done yet:

    Republicans in the Louisiana House advanced a bill Wednesday that would classify abortion as homicide and allow prosecutors to criminally charge patients, with supporters citing a draft opinion leaked this week showing the Supreme Court ready to overturn Roe v. Wade.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...tion-homicide/
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    Re: Supreme Court leak - Roe vs Wade

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    How can you possibly care about that when some kid put makeup on? I mean, Madison Cawthorn dressed up in drag and god put him in a wheelchair for it so won't you think of the children?
    I don't know what you are referring to?
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    Re: Supreme Court leak - Roe vs Wade

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    I don't know what you are referring to?
    It was sarcasm. Look at the post above yours that I quoted.

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    Re: Supreme Court leak - Roe vs Wade

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    It was sarcasm. Look at the post above yours that I quoted.
    You actually quoted mine which was about abortion pills.
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    Re: Supreme Court leak - Roe vs Wade

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    You actually quoted mine which was about abortion pills.
    Yeah, that's what I was saying. I quoted your post and I was being sarcastic about the post above that.

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    Re: Supreme Court leak - Roe vs Wade

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    Yeah, that's what I was saying. I quoted your post and I was being sarcastic about the post above that.
    Makes perfect sense
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    Re: Supreme Court leak - Roe vs Wade

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    Makes perfect sense
    It was a long road for a pretty lame joke. Not sure it made the trip in one piece.

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    Re: Supreme Court leak - Roe vs Wade

    I mean it was ruled that a right to privacy federally guarantee abortion.
    I think this is a distraction, though. Let's be honest, this isn't about a legal technicality, it's about whether you're pro-life or pro-choice. It's not being overthrown because the high court has a desire to ensure that legal niceties are met, it's being overthrown because the court is packed with pro-life advocates. Dwelling on the technicalities is really an attempt to avoid the moral argument.

    But it is very suspicious on two accounts: the opinion was released prematurely and the timing of the release.
    Oh, I don't think it's suspicious... it's bleedin' obvious. Yeah, it's about the mid terms. But this argument cuts both ways. If this what the high court intends to do and feels it is justified in doing, why would they not want it announced now? The answer is exactly the same as the answer for why it was leaked now. What this reveals is how politicised your judicial arm (which is explicitly meant to be apolitical) has become. IMO that speaks very poorly to its validity as a body.

    Polls show that roughly half of Americans believe Roe vs Wade should be maintained while slightly above a quarter believe it should be overturned. That's a ratio of almost 2 to 1. On the more simple question of whether abortion should be legal the numbers edge slightly further towards the pro-choice camp. So, yes, this will damage the republicans in the mid terms... and it should. They deliberately and dishonestly packed the court, knowing this would be the result, in order to forward a minority agenda. You get to do that, but you shouldn't get to avoid the consequences.
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    Re: Supreme Court leak - Roe vs Wade


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    Re: Supreme Court leak - Roe vs Wade

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    I think this is a distraction, though. Let's be honest, this isn't about a legal technicality, it's about whether you're pro-life or pro-choice. It's not being overthrown because the high court has a desire to ensure that legal niceties are met, it's being overthrown because the court is packed with pro-life advocates. Dwelling on the technicalities is really an attempt to avoid the moral argument.
    I would disagree with this statement. The entire purpose of the Supreme Court is to rule on the constitutionality of things.

    Roe v. Wade was decided on when the court was still shaped based on FDR, based on their interpretation of the constitution. Now it appears to be overthrown because of Trump's judicial picks, based on their interpretation.

    If anything, it exposes how easy it is for the judicial branch to make legislative decisions. Whether it was when Roe v. Wade was decided, or whether it is when it gets overturned.
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    Re: Supreme Court leak - Roe vs Wade

    By the way, I donít want yíall to misconstrue my position. Iím actually in favor of leaks. What Julian Assange and Edward Snowden did are heroic. Iím sure that that whoever leaked this opinion wonít face treason charges and even if they are caught it wonít be nearly as severe of a punishment because it doesnít go against the military industrial complex.

    But just because I am in favor doesnít mean that I canít scrutinize their intentions. In the case of Assange and Snowden, they were definitely in it for notoriety, especially Snowden. In the case of this leaker, it seems like it is a more partisan reasoning.
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    Re: Supreme Court leak - Roe vs Wade

    The point Dore raised in the video above is that the Dems have had the power to make this Federal law over and over again including right now, but fail to do so because the current state of things is so profitable for them.

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    Re: Supreme Court leak - Roe vs Wade

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    The point Dore raised in the video above is that the Dems have had the power to make this Federal law over and over again including right now, but fail to do so because the current state of things is so profitable for them.
    That is something that I actually agree with, although I don't think that it's the whole reason. I also think that establishment Democrats, quite possibly through arrogance, still see themselves as the good guys who must maintain their integrity and not appear to be or actually be "playing dirty". They still have this "when they go low, we go high" attitude. That's simply not going to work with today's Republican part and hasn't for a while now. If Democrats actually care about the people they represent then they need to get their hands dirty. The question is, do they actually care. In many cases, the answer is clearly "no" and is probably "no" in many other cases too. The fact that Kyrsten Sinema got elected pushing what most Republicans with a mouth would call a "radical left-wing agenda" shows what's actually popular amongst voters, but the fact that she completely disregarded all that once in power shows that she's a fraud who cares nothing for the people she is supposed to represent. She is a shining example of why the US system of money in politics will be a major reason for the downfall of democracy.

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    Re: Supreme Court leak - Roe vs Wade

    The entire purpose of the Supreme Court is to rule on the constitutionality of things.
    I agree that's their purpose. My point is that their purpose is not their motivation.

    Iím actually in favor of leaks
    Yeah, me too. I think we need way more protections for whistle blowers.
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