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Thread: Flavored Cigarette Ban - Thoughts?

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    Flavored Cigarette Ban - Thoughts?

    Up front, I will state that I've never smoked a cigarette in my entire life, and am proud to say that. I did, however, work at a convenience store for a couple years to help pay my way through college, and sold people lots and lots of cigarettes in that time.

    In recent history, a few agendas are said to "disproportionately affect" certain groups of American's, most often African-American's. And, almost all of the time, it is Democrat's making that claim against Republican agendas.

    If you've ever worked in a place that sells cigarettes, you almost certainly know this, but if you haven't, maybe you don't. African American's almost exclusively smoke menthol cigarettes. I think the figures I saw recently was 85% of African American smokers smoke menthol cigarettes. In my personal convenience store experience (granted, this was almost 25 years ago), I would say it was higher than that even, as far as sales go. Probably 90% Newport's, 5% Kool's, and the rest a mixed bag, and of the mixed bag, some of that was the guy buying a pack of Marlboro Lights, going to his car, and tossing it to his (likely under 18) girlfriend in the front seat.

    I'm not sure what the number of white smokers who smoke menthol cigarettes is, but it is absolutely nowhere near 85%. Maybe 10-15%, I really don't know.

    In any event, this ban would absolutely disproportionately affect African American's. And yet, it is being done under Democratic leadership. Granted, it could be argued that the affect is a positive one if the end result is that less African American's smoke cigarettes.

    Now, the stated goal of this ban is to try to prevent kids from getting into smoking because of the various flavors of cigarette available, which is a laudable goal to me. But I can't help but feel that there is a narrative at play here, rightly or wrongly, that the cigarettes that almost all African American smokers like to smoke are about to be made illegal, while the cigarettes that almost all white people like to smoke will still be readily available. That seems extremely wrong to me, as a "staunchly non-smoking" white person.

    If this ban goes through, I hope they remove the ban on menthol cigarettes, and just include the other oddball flavors out there. Either that, or some "menthol juice" product will probably come out, where you put a drop of it on the filter and you get the same flavor as a menthol cigarette. Or maybe that already exists, no idea.

    I don't know, this whole thing seems like the wrong time to do something huge like this.

    What are your thoughts?
    Last edited by OptionBase1; May 2nd, 2022 at 03:56 PM.

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    Re: Flavored Cigarette Ban - Thoughts?

    Ye well it's always makes me smile when they ban something "for your health" like the cigarettes (never smoked, I consider it a grotesque habit) and when they impose something "for your health" like vaxbental.
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    Re: Flavored Cigarette Ban - Thoughts?

    Yeah, you can almost hear the judge now: "You can go to jail for selling menthols... or you can join up and fight in Ukraine."

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    Re: Flavored Cigarette Ban - Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by OptionBase1 View Post
    What are your thoughts?
    I think you really need to learn the proper use of the apostrophe.
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    Re: Flavored Cigarette Ban - Thoughts?

    I smoked menthol for forty years... Salem Slim Lights. The last many years it was two packs a day.

    If and when I'd run out, I'd rather NOT Smoke then to smoke a non-menthol.

    Anyway, I'd join protest groups etc and do what ever it took to make the new law go away if I was still smoking.
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    Re: Flavored Cigarette Ban - Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by OptionBase1 View Post
    Up front, I will state that I've never smoked a cigarette in my entire life, and am proud to say that. I did, however, work at a convenience store for a couple years to help pay my way through college, and sold people lots and lots of cigarettes in that time.

    In recent history, a few agendas are said to "disproportionately affect" certain groups of American's, most often African-American's. And, almost all of the time, it is Democrat's making that claim against Republican agendas.

    If you've ever worked in a place that sells cigarettes, you almost certainly know this, but if you haven't, maybe you don't. African American's almost exclusively smoke menthol cigarettes. I think the figures I saw recently was 85% of African American smokers smoke menthol cigarettes. In my personal convenience store experience (granted, this was almost 25 years ago), I would say it was higher than that even, as far as sales go. Probably 90% Newport's, 5% Kool's, and the rest a mixed bag, and of the mixed bag, some of that was the guy buying a pack of Marlboro Lights, going to his car, and tossing it to his (likely under 18) girlfriend in the front seat.

    I'm not sure what the number of white smokers who smoke menthol cigarettes is, but it is absolutely nowhere near 85%. Maybe 10-15%, I really don't know.

    In any event, this ban would absolutely disproportionately affect African American's. And yet, it is being done under Democratic leadership. Granted, it could be argued that the affect is a positive one if the end result is that less African American's smoke cigarettes.

    Now, the stated goal of this ban is to try to prevent kids from getting into smoking because of the various flavors of cigarette available, which is a laudable goal to me. But I can't help but feel that there is a narrative at play here, rightly or wrongly, that the cigarettes that almost all African American smokers like to smoke are about to be made illegal, while the cigarettes that almost all white people like to smoke will still be readily available. That seems extremely wrong to me, as a "staunchly non-smoking" white person.

    If this ban goes through, I hope they remove the ban on menthol cigarettes, and just include the other oddball flavors out there. Either that, or some "menthol juice" product will probably come out, where you put a drop of it on the filter and you get the same flavor as a menthol cigarette. Or maybe that already exists, no idea.

    I don't know, this whole thing seems like the wrong time to do something huge like this.

    What are your thoughts?
    I'm not going to look it up but I read recently that when the laws were passed restricting flavored cigarettes and the like lobbyists managed to carve menthol cigarettes out. So I don't think it isn't some kind of prejudice against blacks. Rather congress catching up.
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    Re: Flavored Cigarette Ban - Thoughts?

    I'm coming to this cold as I had no idea that there was a link between black people and menthol cigarettes. I honestly thought that this was going to be an attempt to construct some weird racist narrative but a quick google shows it's actually a thing, at least in the US (I'm pretty sure we don't have a similar correlation in the UK but I haven't checked) so... go figure.

    My first thought was, why would you ban one type of cigarette over another? I didn't assume it was racially motivated (possibly due to my ignorance of the above) but it still seemed a weird and illogical thing to do. Indeed, why would you outright ban any cigarette at all, smoking one is a voluntary act.

    I thought this was a good explanation though: "to try to prevent kids from getting into smoking because of the various flavors of cigarette available", like OB, I think that's a worthy motivation. I'd like to see some data that proves the flavours act as a gateway before I get too carried away but it seems likely to be a factor and certainly worthy of looking in to.

    While I don't think this is racially motivated it is clear it would have a heavily biased outcome based on race and that needs to be considered. So I'm left balancing the benefit to children against the imposition on black smokers and I don't think there's a definitively correct answer to that.

    Before I'd cast my vote I'd want to see concrete data on what the effect on numbers of children taking up smoking would be. And I'd like to consider how serious the impact on black smokers would actually be (they could simply switch brand, after all - I know it's deeper than that for smokers though).

    I do have a few questions that play into this. Are other flavours of cigarette being considered in the same way? Is this only cigarettes or are e.g. alcopops being considered?
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    Re: Flavored Cigarette Ban - Thoughts?

    Government imposing a ban on our freedoms. In the words of the great Randy Jackson "that's going to be a no from me dawg".

    I used to smoke cigarettes from the time I was 11 or 12 until I was about 23. During that time I smoked menthols (and I'm white). When I was absolutely broke I'd go to the Tobacco Plus, buy a 10 gallon bag of menthol tobacco, some cheap papers, and start rolling. It would cost me like $15 but man, I wouldn't need to buy cigarettes for like a month. When I started earning some money over minimum wage, I bought sports (newports). When sports got to be like $5.50 a pack, I switch to Pall Mall menthols. I looked the other day and sports are almost $10 a pack and Pall Mall menthols are at like $6 a pack, it's ridiculous. I feel like an old man at thirty saying "I remember when I bought Newports for $3.50 a pack -shakes cane-" when in reality it is just a hyper regulated industry causing prices to skyrocket.

    I smoke cigars now and a real fear in the cigar community is if the ban would extend to infused cigars because the FDA likes to use vague wording which could inadvertently (or purposefully) encompass wider than what the public believes the scope to be. Brands like Acid by Drew Estates are made up exclusively by infused cigars and is probably the most profitable of their line.

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    I do have a few questions that play into this. Are other flavours of cigarette being considered in the same way? Is this only cigarettes or are e.g. alcopops being considered?
    That kind of goes to my fear in my last sentence. I know that the FDA tried this once before under the waning years of the Obama administration, but thankfully they rejected it.
    Last edited by dday9; May 3rd, 2022 at 08:36 AM.
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    Re: Flavored Cigarette Ban - Thoughts?

    Like OB, I have never smoked. Also like OB, I was aware of the racial link with menthol cigs. Unlike OB, I was under the impression that this 'flavor' ban was about e-cigs, but that is because I haven't been paying any attention to this. I have no idea what the actual laws are, any carve outs, or anything else like that. The only thing I have heard on the subject was that the point was that flavored nicotine was created to induce kids to smoke, and therefore the flavoring was banned to remove that inducement. That actually makes sense to me, because I've inhaled a fair amount of smoke, and it's kind of harsh. Leave it unpleasant, and why would anybody do it?

    Of course, out here, it seems like there's more tobacco chewed rather than smoked, so that's getting around the need to inhale smoke to get your drug.

    Anyways, what DDay talked about seems the most effective: Tax the hell out of it, and let those who are willing to pay the price, pay the price.
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    Re: Flavored Cigarette Ban - Thoughts?

    The banning of flavored cigs wasn't supposed to included menthols ... the intent was to ban "designer" cigs that have flavors to them that attract teens. That was the intent at least ... the result on the other hand... the law of unintended consequences.

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    Re: Flavored Cigarette Ban - Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    I do have a few questions that play into this. Are other flavours of cigarette being considered in the same way? Is this only cigarettes or are e.g. alcopops being considered?
    Can't answer for other places, but here in South Carolina here's what's going on:
    Cigarettes as far as I know are largely unaffected. What did get hit here were flavored vapes. Like Number Five... it was right out.

    Now, when it comes to alcopops ... it gets a bit weirder. This state has liquor laws... aka Blue Laws .... Grocery/convenience stores can only sell beer & wine. Everything else must be sold through a state-controlled liquor store (also known as a three-dot store for their distinctive three red dots... it's a symbol, not a chain... it's a weird thing) ... Sales of liquor can only happen between 10am & 7pm (so screw you if you get caught in traffic) and only Monday - Sat (Sundays are banned).
    There's a food truck (that is a chain apparently) called "BoozPops" ... and they sell liquor infused popsicles. For years the legislature let them do their thing... but now that it's become popular, they're trying to relegate it. Currently BP works in a grey area that allows them to operate. Now the legislature is trying to say that you can only sell out of a fixed location. So for 10 years no one had an issue... and now suddenly it is.

    Whether the change will happen or not remains to be seen... I don't think it made it out of committee this year, but probably will next year.

    -tg
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    Re: Flavored Cigarette Ban - Thoughts?

    Wow, I had completely intended on including a link to the FDA press release in my original post, and I got so caught up in the wall of text I wrote that I completely forgot about it.

    https://www.fda.gov/news-events/pres...uth-initiation

    This proposal is nationwide, it is cigarettes and cigars, and it includes menthol. It also isn't finalized, they are accepting public input for a while. I have a feeling that there may be a specific carve-out for menthol cigarettes in the end, but that the rest may pass.

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    Re: Flavored Cigarette Ban - Thoughts?

    I feel like an old man at thirty saying "I remember when I bought Newports for $3.50 a pack -shakes cane-" when in reality it is just a hyper regulated industry causing prices to skyrocket.
    You sound young to me. lol

    When I was @ 8yrs old my dad would give me a quarter and send me to the store to get him a pack of Camels.

    Anyways, what DDay talked about seems the most effective: Tax the hell out of it, and let those who are willing to pay the price, pay the price.
    I disagree with this. I think it's wrong to selectively impose a financial penalty. Smoking is not illegal.

    I haven't read any research so this is just an uneducated opinion. These types of laws are just windows dressing, a means to make it seem like they are fighting the problem. Kids smoked before flavored cigs were ever invented, the ones that only smoke because of the flavors probably are unlikely to be the long term smokers.

    The best weapon for preventing kids from starting is education and shaping attitudes.

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    Re: Flavored Cigarette Ban - Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    The best weapon for preventing kids from starting is education and shaping attitudes.
    How's that "war on drugs" working out for ya? "Just say no", amirite?

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    Re: Flavored Cigarette Ban - Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post
    How's that "war on drugs" working out for ya? "Just say no", amirite?

    -tg
    Don't see the correlation. Unless you think "Just say no" passes for adequate education and shaping attitudes. However, if banning flavored cigs is there "war on smoking" plan, then the results will be the same as the war on drugs.

    Or maybe your agreeing with me, not sure what your trying to say. lol
    Last edited by wes4dbt; May 3rd, 2022 at 11:51 AM.

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    Re: Flavored Cigarette Ban - Thoughts?

    the law of unintended consequences.
    That sounds likely the root to me. Well intentioned but poorly thought out and implemented.

    Interesting article but it doesn't clear up my nagging doubts. "the actions we are proposing can help significantly reduce youth initiation and increase the chances that current smokers quit." That's their declared motive but that would lead you to ban all cigarettes, not just the menthol or flavoured ones.

    I honestly don't feel I know enough about the background or decision making process to really judge their motivations but the outcome appears to me to be a deeply flawed piece of legislation.
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    Re: Flavored Cigarette Ban - Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post
    The banning of flavored cigs wasn't supposed to included menthols ... the intent was to ban "designer" cigs that have flavors to them that attract teens. That was the intent at least ... the result on the other hand... the law of unintended consequences.

    -tg
    I disagree...

    https://www.publichealthlawcenter.or...nthol-timeline

    "Commercial tobacco manufacturers have used menthol cigarettes to target vulnerable populations for decades. Nearly 9 in 10 (88.5%) African American smokers ages 12 and older use menthol cigarettes (Truth Initiative). Menthol increases the palatability of smoking, especially among youth and members of racial and ethnic populations, and menthol increases the difficulty of quitting. Yet when Congress prohibited most cigarettes with flavorings as part of the 2009 Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act, it exempted the most important flavoring of all: menthol. This timeline marks some important moments between the passing of the Tobacco Control Act, and the proposed rules on menthol in cigarettes and all flavors in cigars issued by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration on April 28, 2022."

    I can't find another link where the tobacco lobby was a huge part of it being exempted. But who would want it exempted more that them $$$$$$. I'll dig more if you still don't believe that.
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    Re: Flavored Cigarette Ban - Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    I disagree with this. I think it's wrong to selectively impose a financial penalty. Smoking is not illegal.
    I didn't flesh out that thought. What is the harm of smoking? Sure, there's second hand smoke, but that's mostly a thing of the past, these days. You're fine to smoke in plenty of areas, so what's the harm to smoking? It's the long term cost to society of the health side effects.

    In theory, it should be possible to cover those costs through taxation of the product, and have it be done in a reasonable and effective way. In practice, it doesn't really work out that way, because there is no tie between the revenue stream and the expenditure, nor will there ever be in a democratic system, but it SHOULD be possible.
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    Re: Flavored Cigarette Ban - Thoughts?

    Everything is entitled to do with his health whatever his/she wants. Ring a bell?
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    Re: Flavored Cigarette Ban - Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    I didn't flesh out that thought. What is the harm of smoking? Sure, there's second hand smoke, but that's mostly a thing of the past, these days. You're fine to smoke in plenty of areas, so what's the harm to smoking? It's the long term cost to society of the health side effects.

    In theory, it should be possible to cover those costs through taxation of the product, and have it be done in a reasonable and effective way. In practice, it doesn't really work out that way, because there is no tie between the revenue stream and the expenditure, nor will there ever be in a democratic system, but it SHOULD be possible.
    I'm not trying to defend smoking. I'm just against selective tax penalties. I've heard the health cost to society argument but not seen evidence that the extra taxes are used for those expenses. Also, there are plenty of other things that have negative health effects, alcohol, our diet, stress.... California already adds $2.87 tax per pack and the feds add another $1.01.

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    Re: Flavored Cigarette Ban - Thoughts?

    Here is a more simplified argument based on selective tax penalties.
    Remember when eggs were bad for you? What if we had a tax to penalize someone for unhealthy eating and eggs had that tax applied to them. Now that eggs are good for you again would the tax be dropped? Would people who were unjustly taxed before be reimbursed? If the answer to that is yes, then how would you compensate? The questions go on.
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    Re: Flavored Cigarette Ban - Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by dday9 View Post
    Here is a more simplified argument based on selective tax penalties.
    Remember when eggs were bad for you? What if we had a tax to penalize someone for unhealthy eating and eggs had that tax applied to them. Now that eggs are good for you again would the tax be dropped? Would people who were unjustly taxed before be reimbursed? If the answer to that is yes, then how would you compensate? The questions go on.
    My daughter is a RN and obesity is a major health problem. Let's tax ice cream and candy (especially candy cigarettes). lol

    It just seems a weak justification, seems more like a scam. In our state when they wanted to start a state Lottery, they sold it as a means to raise more money for the schools and teachers. What they didn't mention was they would then reduce schools/teachers funding from other sources. No gain. These cigarette taxes seem like the same kind of scam. I can't think of any improvement that can be contributed to the lottery or cig tax.

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    Re: Flavored Cigarette Ban - Thoughts?

    I can't think of any improvement that can be contributed to the lottery or cig tax.

    Probably because you don't know me...I won $1000.00 once and bought a new refrigerator.
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    Re: Flavored Cigarette Ban - Thoughts?

    Here the monies generated by the lottery really do go towards education. By law, by design, that's all it can be used for. A majority of it goes towards scholarships. $500 just for going to college. More depending on grades and other things. Some of it goes into the pool that funds the schools in general, giving some tax relief. Not a lot, but some.

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    Re: Flavored Cigarette Ban - Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    My daughter is a RN and obesity is a major health problem. Let's tax ice cream and candy (especially candy cigarettes). lol

    It just seems a weak justification
    Sure, it's weak, but so what? In general, use taxes are a pretty fair way to go. Let people decide what they want to spend money on. If it's something that is going to impose a societal cost, it will be somewhat more expensive than something that does not impose the societal cost.

    The society we live in costs money. It costs a LOT of money. Most of us will not earn in our entire lifetimes, enough money to pay for the roads that we have driven on, and that's just a relatively straightforward example. Everybody contributes, everybody benefits. Or not. That's the whole tension with taxation. The benefits cost money, not everybody wants the benefits, not everybody is willing to contribute. Let those who use the benefit more, contribute more. That doesn't stop the whining, but it's the fairest way.
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    Re: Flavored Cigarette Ban - Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Everybody contributes, everybody benefits. Or not. That's the whole tension with taxation.
    I wouldn't say that is the whole tension. There is also the morality of it which is sort of a biggie.
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    Re: Flavored Cigarette Ban - Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Sure, it's weak, but so what? In general, use taxes are a pretty fair way to go. Let people decide what they want to spend money on. If it's something that is going to impose a societal cost, it will be somewhat more expensive than something that does not impose the societal cost.

    The society we live in costs money. It costs a LOT of money. Most of us will not earn in our entire lifetimes, enough money to pay for the roads that we have driven on, and that's just a relatively straightforward example. Everybody contributes, everybody benefits. Or not. That's the whole tension with taxation. The benefits cost money, not everybody wants the benefits, not everybody is willing to contribute. Let those who use the benefit more, contribute more. That doesn't stop the whining, but it's the fairest way.
    It hard for me to understand what your trying to say here.

    It an invalid tax but so what???
    Prejudicial/selective taxes is just the way it works???
    It costs a lot of money to run the country, so lets tax whatever we can get the majority to vote yes on?

    I agree that those who use the benefits more should pay more, that seems fair. But it also seems like an impossible calculation. Plus, the old or sickly are going to using a lot more of the benefits but they are also the mostly likely to not have much financial means.

    As for the cig taxes, what annoys me the most is the false pretense and the discrimination.
    Last edited by wes4dbt; May 4th, 2022 at 12:41 PM.

  28. #28
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Flavored Cigarette Ban - Thoughts?

    All very valid.

    Taxation is a complicated subject. It often isn't possible to have use taxes, and even when it is it can be strange and changeable. For example, the gas tax is used for highways, and is thus considered a pretty reasonable use tax...until people stop using gas, but are still using roads. At that point, then what?

    Others have pointed out that things like the lottery were often earmarked for school spending, but there are several significant problems with that. The 'earmark' may not hold, the money may simply replace funding that was already there (which is really just shifting the tax burden, without improving anything), and so on.

    When it comes to 'sin' taxes in general, there's always a bit of a moral question at play there. In the case of cigarettes, cost does appear to reduce use, but it doesn't eliminate use. Still, those taxes have always been pushed for a variety of reasons.

    In the end, some people win and others lose, regardless of how the laws are written. The mish-mash that we have is the result of all the different people tugging in all the different directions for all kinds of different reasons.

    I do think that use taxes are more fair, but I'm well aware of the issues with them. What I object to is people who want gold star services and expect to pay nothing for it. We have a lot. It costs a lot. If there's a better way to pay...share it, please.
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    Super Moderator dday9's Avatar
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    Re: Flavored Cigarette Ban - Thoughts?

    Louisiana legislation was presented to issue a special tax on EVs and hybrids because they donít use gas, therefore they arenít paying for roads. https://www.kalb.com/2022/05/02/loui...hybrid-owners/

    So on one hand environmentalist say give tax credits to EVs to help with climate change and on the other hand Republicans will charge a special tax for those who own EVs. How about no tax credit and no tax at all? Who will pay for the roads? I donít know, but I have faith in people to negotiate for needed land and to lay down long strips of blacktop if they really need it. It sure beats what we have now with politicians buying up land for pennies on the dollar, sell it to the state for construction, then give out contracts to their podnahs.
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    Re: Flavored Cigarette Ban - Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by dday9 View Post
    Louisiana legislation was presented to issue a special tax on EVs and hybrids because they donít use gas, therefore they arenít paying for roads. https://www.kalb.com/2022/05/02/loui...hybrid-owners/

    So on one hand environmentalist say give tax credits to EVs to help with climate change and on the other hand Republicans will charge a special tax for those who own EVs. How about no tax credit and no tax at all? Who will pay for the roads? I donít know, but I have faith in people to negotiate for needed land and to lay down long strips of blacktop if they really need it. It sure beats what we have now with politicians buying up land for pennies on the dollar, sell it to the state for construction, then give out contracts to their podnahs.
    South Carolina did the same thing. I think it was an extra 10% for hybrids and an extra 30% for full electrics.

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    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Flavored Cigarette Ban - Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by dday9 View Post
    I donít know, but I have faith in people to negotiate for needed land and to lay down long strips of blacktop if they really need it.
    I don't share your faith. I live in a very rural state. We likely wouldn't have roads if we had to pay for them. Perhaps you would prefer that situation, but you have to consider it not from the current status quo, but from where you would be without the steps that got you to this point. Rural electrification, rural telephone connections, rural roads, and so on, didn't come about because the people in the area saw the need and paid for them.
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    Re: Flavored Cigarette Ban - Thoughts?

    I don't want to misunderstand me. I am not saying that it would be easy, rather I am saying that if there is a high enough incentive that individuals would do a much better job than the state.

    I would say that what is great about the marketplace of ideas is that advancements in technology do make these things easier. For example, advancements in personal renewable energies make it easier for individuals to get away from traditional electric companies. Advancements in the telecommunications industry make it easier for companies to buy a single plot of land, erect a tower, and offer cellular service -or- in the case of SpaceX offer highspeed internet.

    It might be foreseeable that we no longer have such a high demand for traditional vehicles. Technology is evolving so rapidly that we at last might be flying around on personal jet belts like on that episode with Michigan J. Frog. At that point the incentive for traditional roads might fall completely out of favor. In this hypothetical situation, it wouldn't surprise me that legislators tax flyers because they no longer use roads or sidewalks.
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    Re: Flavored Cigarette Ban - Thoughts?

    Rural electrification, rural telephone connections, rural roads, and so on, didn't come about because the people in the area saw the need and paid for them.
    Isn't that what happened? Things like those justify our taxes. I mean, where else did the money come from. Sooner or later it all comes back to us.

    If there's a better way to pay...share it, please.
    I think Mexico should pay for it. Like they're paying for that wall. lol

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    Re: Flavored Cigarette Ban - Thoughts?

    "Code is like humor. When you have to explain it, itís bad." - Cory House
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