Musk buys Twitter

[Niya]

I'm more curious why somebody tries to claim that the one media source they rail against is somehow responsible for the craziness.

Even that idea is crazy as hell. The media isn't responsible for this at all. It is society's tolerance of people like David Duke that led to this. He and his followers come up with insane ideas to explain their lot in life and then they ferment these ideas for decades while slowly amassing a following until one of them explodes and we have a mass shooting.

[TysonLPrice]

Even that idea is crazy as hell. The media isn't responsible for this at all.

Then we are far apart on this... Tucker Carlson is one of the most watched commentators in the Nation. For months and months he has been going on about "Replacement Theory" inflaming his right. As soon as what he espouses goes south the network closed up about what they have been promoting for months.

Maybe you don't think they are responsible for it at all but it sure got the network to shut up about it. Why do you think they made that decision about stopping the "Replacement Theory" references. I don't think it is because they feel they have nothing to do with it.

[Shaggy Hiker]

I agree with Niya on this. These folks have always been there. Tucker Carlson is spreading it to a large group of people (who predominantly won't do anything...and I do mean anything...because they are overwhelmingly elderly), but this group has always been there, and they always will be there. From what little I have heard about it, they start out with hating themselves, and try to externalize the pain.

[Niya]

Then we are far apart on this... Tucker Carlson is one of the most watched commentators in the Nation. For months and months he has been going on about "Replacement Theory" inflaming his right. As soon as what he espouses goes south the network closed up about what they have been promoting for months.

Maybe you don't think they are responsible for it at all but it sure got the network to shut up about it. Why do you think they made that decision about stop the "Replacement Theory" references. I don't think it is because they feel they have nothing to do with it.

Oh I'm not saying that you're wrong perse. I mean yea, if Tucker Carlson was talking about the same stuff, it makes sense that Fox News would now try to distance themselves from the theory. I mean that makes sense.

But what I am saying is that anyone who thinks that the things he was talking about can fully explain this kid's actions, they'd be dead wrong. I mean does Tucker blame Bolshevik Jews for all the ills in society? Does he promote a belief in a racial hierarchy that puts whites at the top, Asians in the middle and Blacks at the bottom? Does he believe that Jews use Blacks as their bulldogs as part of their plans to dominate the white race? Does he talk about black people being more likely to rape a white woman than other races? Does he talk about Jews promoting transgenderism as a plot against the white race? Does Tucker Carlson talk about any of this? I'm betting that he doesn't.

The point I'm making is that this "replacement theory" is only a tiny part of the shooter's motivations. That alone is not what moved him. Like I said, read the kid's manifesto. He explains all of this stuff in great painstaking detail. He even explains in great depth why he chose the weapons he used. It's all there in his manifesto.

[Niya]

And by the way, while yes his ideas were insane, the kid was actually very intelligent and of sound mind. It was clear from reading his manifesto that he was wasn't mentally deficient. My impression is that he simply didn't have enough life experience to help him properly frame all the radical nonsense he was reading on 4Chan.

[FunkyDexter]

Why is Fox News being mentioned?

Because Tucker Carlson (in particular, though not exclusively) mainstreamed the replacement rhetoric over the last decade. I agree with you that Fox cannot be held wholly responsible for the events in Buffalo and I've no doubt we'll find out in the next few days that Gendron was hanging out on StormFront etc, but the continuous parroting of racist rhetoric 1. gives validation to the crazies, thus making them more likely to follow through, and 2. makes it increasingly able to couch their views as reasonable and thus recruit more crazies.

Carlson's not the cause, he's a multiplier.

[TysonLPrice]

Oh I'm not saying that you're wrong perse. I mean yea, if Tucker Carlson was talking about the same stuff, it makes sense that Fox News would now try to distance themselves from the theory. I mean that makes sense.

But what I am saying is that anyone who thinks that the things he was talking about can fully explain this kid's actions, they'd be dead wrong. I mean does Tucker blame Bolshevik Jews for all the ills in society? Does he promote a belief in a racial hierarchy that puts whites at the top, Asians in the middle and Blacks at the bottom? Does he believe that Jews use Blacks as their bulldogs as part of their plans to dominate the white race? Does he talk about black people being more likely to rape a white woman than other races? Does he talk about Jews promoting transgenderism as a plot against the white race? Does Tucker Carlson talk about any of this? I'm betting that he doesn't.

The point I'm making is that this "replacement theory" is only a tiny part of the shooter's motivations. That alone is not what moved him. Like I said, read the kid's manifesto. He explains all of this stuff in great painstaking detail. He even explains in great depth why he chose the weapons he used. It's all there in his manifesto.

I didn't intend to imply that Fox was directly involved in the shooting and I mentioned in the first post I don't even know if he watched Fox. I do disagree with Shaggy Hiker that "(who predominantly won't do anything...and I do mean anything...because they are overwhelmingly elderly)". I would say Fox had quite a lot to do with all these stolen election movements, the fire storm over CRT, Trans in bathrooms, etc. That network clearly motivates people into action, albeit, they are not alone.


I thought my point was very clear and succinct. The posts seems to turn to, and that is the nature of Chit Chat, to "oh that is old hat" and a general "pooh poohing" of my point. That is just fine. I go on about Fox quite a bit and am clearly partisan so I'm fair game.

But a quick review of the top headlines of the current discussion of the shooting and replacement theory you will be hit with quite a few folks criticizing Fox. Just like me.

[wes4dbt]

And by the way, while yes his ideas were insane, the kid was actually very intelligent and of sound mind. It was clear from reading his manifesto that he was wasn't mentally deficient. My impression is that he simply didn't have enough life experience to help him properly frame all the radical nonsense he was reading on 4Chan.

I could go either way on that. It was an insane act but his age does make him susceptible. As far as being very intelligent, meh. Intelligence is a flakey term anyway. Just be cause you can write a coherent manifesto doesn't mean your very intelligent. Obviously his social skills and decision making seem to be below normal.

I read somewhere that, "Intelligence is how well you survive within your environment". Or something close to that, it was a long time ago. By that definition this kid is not very intelligent. My intelligence seems to come and go. Every smart thing I do seems to be matched by stupid acts. lol

[FunkyDexter]

he kid was actually ... of sound mind

He had undergone a previous psych evaluation a year or so before but I can't find definitive details on what the findings were. We might find out over the next few days. But Fox haven't wasted any time in pushing that right to the front.

[Niya]

Because Tucker Carlson (in particular, though not exclusively) mainstreamed the replacement rhetoric over the last decade. I agree with you that Fox cannot be held wholly responsible for the events in Buffalo and I've no doubt we'll find out in the next few days that Gendron was hanging out on StormFront etc, a
Carlson's not the cause, he's a multiplier.

I just wanted to make it clear that Tucker Carlson's talking points only scratch the surface of the much larger body of work wherein these ideas can be found and that people should really be paying attention to that and not just the the small piece of it presented in mainstream channels like Fox News.

but the continuous parroting of racist rhetoric 1. gives validation to the crazies, thus making them more likely to follow through

makes it increasingly able to couch their views as reasonable and thus recruit more crazies.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. Mainstreaming of these ideas make it seem like there are more people thinking like this than there actually are which bolsters the confidence of the crazies.

[Niya]

I could go either way on that. It was an insane act but his age does make him susceptible. As far as being very intelligent, meh. Intelligence is a flakey term anyway. Just be cause you can write a coherent manifesto doesn't mean your very intelligent. Obviously his social skills and decision making seem to be below normal.

I read somewhere that, "Intelligence is how well you survive within your environment". Or something close to that, it was a long time ago. By that definition this kid is not very intelligent. My intelligence seems to come and go. Every smart thing I do seems to be matched by stupid acts. lol

He had undergone a previous psych evaluation a year or so before but I can't find definitive details on what the findings were. We might find out over the next few days. But Fox haven't wasted any time in pushing that right to the front.

I get what you're saying but what I'm getting at is that reading his manifesto, you never once get the impression that something is wrong with him mentally.

Let me put it in programming terms. Let's say a function represents a persons mind and the arguments passed to this function represent information this mind received. The return value of the function represents actions they take based on the input. Truly crazy people are like badly written functions that don't work right. It doesn't matter what arguments you pass in, it will produce terrible output. Intelligent people are like well written functions and if you pass in good inputs, the output would be excellent. This kid is like a well written function that got passed some really bad arguments so the output was terrible.

I remember thinking while reading his manifesto that if someone had taken hold of this kid and poured better stuff into him than the racist garbage he got from 4Chan, he could have been very successful in society.

[Shaggy Hiker]

I feel that Tucker Carlson is the epitome of capitalism. If you look at a young Alex Jones, you see the old Alex Jones. From some documentaries, he was always as he is, at least as far back as HS. Not so with Carlson. He's figured out a line that has made him gobs of money, and that's all the conviction that is necessary, "this makes me rich, so it is right." Of course, he believes a bunch of it, but I'm not convinced that he's all that much of a true believer. I'd say more of a shallow believer is likely to be more accurate.

[dilettante]

This interview seemed odd though:



If we are to believe this man (and why shouldn't we?) the "nutty" kid had a long and respectful conversation with him before the terrible events. Something feels off here, or maybe the world is just bizarre.

[dilettante]

Gosh, you can't make this stuff up:

[TysonLPrice]

I feel that Tucker Carlson is the epitome of capitalism. If you look at a young Alex Jones, you see the old Alex Jones. From some documentaries, he was always as he is, at least as far back as HS. Not so with Carlson. He's figured out a line that has made him gobs of money, and that's all the conviction that is necessary, "this makes me rich, so it is right." Of course, he believes a bunch of it, but I'm not convinced that he's all that much of a true believer. I'd say more of a shallow believer is likely to be more accurate.

Fox won a lawsuit partially on a reasonable person wouldn't think what Carlson says is true...

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/29/91774...ay-fox-s-lawye

[Peter Porter]

This interview seemed odd though:



If we are to believe this man (and why shouldn't we?) the "nutty" kid had a long and respectful conversation with him before the terrible events. Something feels off here, or maybe the world is just bizarre.

Dil, why do you always show reaction videos of videos when you could just show us the videos they're reacting to without their reactions? It feels like you're trying to train us and all the lurkers to this thread, like how this guy is trying to train black viewers that this wasn't racially motivated, but pure hatred from being evil. That's it!

Now I've come across evil people, but you know what, they didn't hate anyone! They just enjoyed messin' with people!

I know white people who hate black people, but I've also seen them sit down with their friendly masks on, and have a conversation with a black person like if they're friends, and later continue talking about how much they hate them to me.

Now this kid had a manifesto that he built from everything he learned online. It basically told everyone the reasons why he did what he did, which shows it was racially motivated.

What he did was evil, but his hatred was racially motivated.

[dilettante]

It sounds like you're saying something like: "Stop undermining my comfortable and carefully cultivated narrative."

[FunkyDexter]

I get what you're saying but what I'm getting at is that reading his manifesto, you never once get the impression that something is wrong with him mentally.

I agree and I suspect that what we're going to find out from the previous mental evaluation is that he was just a troubled teenager seeking attention (i.e. when he submitted a college paper that mentioned murder suicide). The recent events were probably the result of a desire for peer validation from more extreme sites he was probably involved in. There's a lot of supposition there but it seems the most likely to me and makes it all the more troubling that Fox have immediately started trying to sell the "crazy" narrative without bothering to actually dig into the details first.

I'd say more of a shallow believer is likely to be more accurate.

I agree, but I think that makes him even more morally reprehensible.

It sounds like you're saying something like: "Stop undermining my comfortable and carefully cultivated narrative."

No, I think we're questioning the carefully cultivate narrative you seem to be swallowing. You literally spouted a replacement theory trope within 4 posts of Tyson mentioning the Buffalo killings: "As far as I can tell the only real part of that is about the DNC's mission to increase the size of the controllable underclass through enhancement of immigration." Or to put it another way, Democrats are trying to replace us with immigrants.

I don't think you're a racist. I don't think you're far right. But your hatred of Biden (of whom I agree with you, there is much to criticise) is leading you to sources, any source, that will validate that hatred and you're losing sight of what some of those sources represent.

[jmcilhinney]

No, I think we're questioning the carefully cultivate narrative you seem to be swallowing. You literally spouted a replacement theory trope within 4 posts of Tyson mentioning the Buffalo killings: "As far as I can tell the only real part of that is about the DNC's mission to increase the size of the controllable underclass through enhancement of immigration." Or to put it another way, Democrats are trying to replace us with immigrants.

I don't think you're a racist. I don't think you're far right. But your hatred of Biden (of whom I agree with you, there is much to criticise) is leading you to sources, any source, that will validate that hatred and you're losing sight of what some of those sources represent.

It is bizarre to me, the number of Americans, in particular, who seem to think that they are the "real"/"proper" left and the best way to distinguish themselves from those whom they think are not is to parrot right-wing talking points.

[dilettante]

Most of my posts merely show that the activists who keep opening these threads with a narrative to sell have no leg to stand on. Most people do not buy it, and every day more are walking away from it once they see what's really going on. The videos reacting to news and information help illustrate that. Some of them are Black or Asian or Latino or women or trans, making it harder to discount them as "racists" to be ignored out of hand.

Musk taking over Twitter and making it a free speech platform is an extremely popular thing. Getting rid of the corporate and government sock puppet accounts is also very popular.

The attitude that clamping down on "loose lips" is vital is absurd in a free society. Arguments for censorship based on the hoary old "Baby can't eat steak so we all get pablum" trope are pretty thinly veiled emotional appeals designed to incite the population to advocate against their own interests out of fear.

The far left and right have more in common than they don't, and people are getting sick of both of them.

[jmcilhinney]

Most of my posts merely show that the activists who keep opening these threads with a narrative to sell have no leg to stand on.

It's a "no" from me.

[Shaggy Hiker]

It's a no from me, as well.

One thing that threads on here have shown pretty well is that everybody has an opinion, and nobody ever changes theirs.

Another thing it shows me is that people use videos in place of an ability to be articulate. What's the point of that? Nobody wants to read some lengthy post by me, so why would they want to watch something created explicitly as propaganda? It's not even really an opinion, but an advertisement for an opinion.

[FunkyDexter]

While we're dishing out Nos, make it a hattrick.

Most of my posts merely show that the activists who keep opening these threads with a narrative to sell...

The videos you're posting clearly have a narrative to sell.

[dilettante]

Another busted narrative:

[dilettante]

It just keeps getting better:

[Peter Porter]

Most of my posts merely show that the activists who keep opening these threads with a narrative to sell have no leg to stand on. Most people do not buy it, and every day more are walking away from it once they see what's really going on. The videos reacting to news and information help illustrate that. Some of them are Black or Asian or Latino or women or trans, making it harder to discount them as "racists" to be ignored out of hand.

Musk taking over Twitter and making it a free speech platform is an extremely popular thing. Getting rid of the corporate and government sock puppet accounts is also very popular.

The attitude that clamping down on "loose lips" is vital is absurd in a free society. Arguments for censorship based on the hoary old "Baby can't eat steak so we all get pablum" trope are pretty thinly veiled emotional appeals designed to incite the population to advocate against their own interests out of fear.

The far left and right have more in common than they don't, and people are getting sick of both of them.

Dil, I've researched your reaction videos you've posted for days (before the last two), and most of these people reacting have been right leaning crusaders since they started their YouTube channels. Did you think no would go to the source of these videos, and just accept your narrative that these people are like you and me? We all know that clicking YouTube on the bottom right of a playing video would take us to the video on YouTube, and then all anyone has to do there is click on the channel username to go to the channel, and lastly click Video there to see all the videos they posted. Again, did you think no one would look?

Just for the future, beaves, find a reaction video from an amature YouTuber who's not on a right leaning crusade. If that's impossible, then just show us a video without any reaction, and just give us your take in words. No more professional YouTubers who've been posting right leaning professionally edited thumbnailed videos since they joined YouTube.

Oh, and about your last two videos, it feels like you're having an anxiety attack! If so, breathe deeply and walk away from your pc.

Go out and have some fun!

Don't let the world worry you into a frenzy! Life is too short to be wasting it like this!

[dilettante]

Come on, say what you mean. You really want an unchallenged echo chamber, right?

If it makes you feel any better I get just as much pushback from anti-vax and 9-11 conspiracy aficionados. Not like the *****cats in the old COVID thread here, real far out there people.

It's tough being among the few remaining moderates.

[jmcilhinney]

Come on, say what you mean. You really want an unchallenged echo chamber, right?

If it makes you feel any better I get just as much pushback from anti-vax and 9-11 conspiracy aficionados. Not like the *****cats in the old COVID thread here, real far out there people.

It's tough being among the few remaining moderates.

No naked flames near all that straw.

[jmcilhinney]

It's tough being among the few remaining moderates.

This is really just sad self-congratulation. I bet that Biden would tell you that he's a moderate if you asked him. I wouldn't be surprised if Joe Manchin did too. Considering yourself a moderate is really just telling yourself that you think that your own opinions are right. Even if one were a moderate, there's nothing inherently good about that because the best position is not inherently in the middle of the possible extremes. There's also the fact that the political centre in the US firmly to the right by global standards so if you, as a self-professed moderate, find yourself being called a right-winger, then maybe it's because you are by the majority standard, at least on certain issues. The fact people like Jimmy Dore and Tim Poole and their "fans" spend so much of their time regurgitating right-wing propaganda and calling it moderation is rather telling.

[Peter Porter]

Come on, say what you mean. You really want an unchallenged echo chamber, right?

If it makes you feel any better I get just as much pushback from anti-vax and 9-11 conspiracy aficionados. Not like the *****cats in the old COVID thread here, real far out there people.

It's tough being among the few remaining moderates.

Dil, before my last posts here, everyone knows I'm a ghost in threads like this one. All I do is read both sides without typing a word.

But you, you hate having your echo chamber challenged. I don't see anyone like you go all out with the same stuff repetitively, like you're stuck in an inescapable loop! Maybe it's time you look over your coding.

After that, take a break. Live life a little!

[jmcilhinney]

Dil, before my last posts here, everyone knows I'm a ghost in threads like this one. All I do is read both sides without typing a word.

No, you're a radical activist and just didn't know it... apparently.

[FunkyDexter]

You really want an unchallenged echo chamber, right?

You want your continuous regurgitation of right wing propaganda to remain unchallenged, right?

At this point you are trying to portray a mass shooting by a guy who explicitly declared that he was racially motivated as non-racially motivated. That is not a moderate position.

[Shaggy Hiker]

everyone knows I'm a ghost in threads like this one.

Well I didn't, so now I know....I see dead people!

[dilettante]

You want your continuous regurgitation of right wing propaganda to remain unchallenged, right?

Egad, pots and kettles.

At this point you are trying to portray a mass shooting by a guy who explicitly declared that he was racially motivated as non-racially motivated. That is not a moderate position.

I never suggested such a thing. The point I was making is that this kid is racist all right, but more importantly linked to Joe Biden administration and Boris Johnson administration backed and funded neo-Nazis in Ukraine, which seems to have fueled his racist motivations.

The kid is obviously radically racist from everything we have seen. He's also Azov-influenced or at least he self-identifies with them. And that's a pretty unsavory group for Western governments to be arming, feeding, fueling, advising, and endorsing.

What the facts DO NOT show is anything supporting arguments that "America is racist" or "white people are racist" or "Trump voters are racist" or "Republicans are racist" or "Twitter is racist under Musk" or ANY of the rest of your narrative. Your narrative being "free speech is bad m'kay" as far as I can tell.

When you add it all up Gendron seems to be radical left, if anything.

How uncomfortable.

[dilettante]

Another narrative has crash and burned:

The FBI Went on Trial for the Gov. Whitmer Kidnapping Case and Lost


Prosecutor drops out of Gov. Whitmer kidnapping plot case

Grand Rapids — A federal prosecutor withdrew Tuesday from the case of a plot to kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer, days after two men were acquitted and the jury couldn’t reach a unanimous verdict for two more on what had been touted as the largest domestic terrorism trial in recent U.S. history.

...

The acquittals and deadlocked jury on two other men were a blow to the case that had been dogged by controversy and scandal. The defense had raised questions about the FBI’s conduct and use of informants, including the indictment of rogue FBI informant Stephen Robeson on a gun crime. The defense alleged that FBI agents and informants had orchestrated the conspiracy and entrapped the men.

Caserta’s lawyer called it “the conspiracy that just never was.”

“Never was, never was going to be," his lawyer, Michael Hills, told reporters. "Our governor was never in any danger. I think the jury, even though they didn’t get all of it,” Hills said, “they smelled enough of it.”

Funny how little coverage there has been at CNN, NBC, BBC, and other mainstream "news" outlets. That case was lost a month ago.

[TysonLPrice]

I'm a ghost in threads like this one. All I do is read both sides without typing a word.

Everyone knows I keep my opinion to myself but...

I would never say anything bad about someone but...

I'm the last to criticize but...

I'm the last one to bring things like this up but...

I'm sensing denial

[Peter Porter]

Everyone knows I keep my opinion to myself but...

I would never say anything bad about someone but...

I'm the last to criticize but...

I'm the last one to bring things like this up but...

I'm sensing denial

I never point out someone's lack of punctuation, but...

[FunkyDexter]

Egad, pots and kettles.

That's my point. You're the pot.

but more importantly linked to Joe Biden administration and Boris Johnson administration backed and funded neo-Nazis in Ukraine, which seems to have fueled his racist motivations

I assume you're talking about this already debunked conspiracy theory. It's rooted in a single picture of Gendron wearing a common Nazi symbol that the Azov regiment, along with a whole bunch of other paramilitary groups, is also known to wear. It really doesn't link him ideologically to the Azov regiment or imply that he was inspired by them in any meaningful way.

Meanwhile he explicitly identified himself as a white supremacist and cited replacement theory as the reason for carrying out his actions. He told you his motivations and you're desperately ignoring his actual words and casting around for some way... any way... to link it to Biden. And the fact that you found yourself advocating the very theory he cited as his motivation should tell you a lot about the sources you're reading.

The narrative that Biden is supporting Nazis because he's supporting Ukraine is equally plank-headed but really not worth rehashing. If you're far enough down the rabbit hole to be making that connection you're already mining for Easter Eggs.

[jmcilhinney]

I watched a video by a prominent leftie YouTuber a few days ago about Elon Musk publicly declaring himself a Republican. At the time, he said that it felt like a setup. Musk claimed that "they" were going to attack him now and the video suggested that it felt like he knew something was about to come out and he was getting out in front of it. Sure enough, it has become public that musk was accused of sexual misconduct, used his power to punish the person who rejected him and then paid for her silence. He has immediate cast this news as a political attack because he switched his allegiance. You've got to give him credit for knowing Republicans well enough to realise that, not only would they not care that he was accused of sexual misconduct, they would defend him vigorously if he just said that he's one of them. That he would be willing to divide the US even further down political lines as a cover for his being a creep shows just how utterly disgusting he is.

This put me in mind of a question that was asked way back at the beginning of this thread, i.e. that Musk says that he's in favour of free speech but whose? At the time, I didn't interpret that as meaning that he might favour right-wingers of left-, but rather that he might do whatever he can to silence anyone critical of him. He's demonstrated on more than one occasion that he has a pretty thin skin and here he is, explicitly changing his political affiliation in an effort to shut down legitimate criticism of him for something that could have landed many less powerful people in jail.

[FunkyDexter]

Yeah, I've seen similar articles although everything I've seen were created after the event with hindsight. Personally, I don't think his vote switch announcement was an attempt to waylay upcoming sexual harassment accusations. Maybe it was but it smacks of a simple coincidence that the media have, unsurprisingly, been able to grab onto to hype the story a little more.

I don't much care though. He's allowed to change his vote and the sexual harassment and subsequent NDA should be a big enough story on it's own. Nothing says hypocrite like championing free speech after paying a former employee to sign an non disclosure agreement.