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Apr 25th, 2022, 06:41 PM
#1
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Apr 25th, 2022, 07:46 PM
#2
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Originally Posted by TysonLPrice
He wants to make it a platform of "free speech". Whose though?
Such a revealing sentiment. You can almost taste the fear in those scare quotes.
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Apr 25th, 2022, 08:42 PM
#3
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Originally Posted by dilettante
Such a revealing sentiment. You can almost taste the fear in those scare quotes.
It's also rather revealing that you quote that part in an effort to imply something and ignore the examples of free speech that almost certainly won't be allowed that have nothing to do with that implication. It's also telling that those who bleat the loudest about free speech are more than happy to block speech that they don't like as well and Elon Musk's history suggests that he will be no different. No reason to expect you to put any thought into that though, when there's Jimmy Dore videos to watch.
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Apr 26th, 2022, 01:35 AM
#4
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Originally Posted by jmcilhinney
No reason to expect you to put any thought into that though, when there's Jimmy Dore videos to watch.
Wow, is Dore still free? Is he still doing videos? Did he do one on this topic?
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Apr 26th, 2022, 01:41 AM
#5
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Originally Posted by dilettante
Wow, is Dore still free? Is he still doing videos? Did he do one on this topic?
You naughty naughty boy......Yep, I saw what was there before
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Apr 26th, 2022, 03:45 AM
#6
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Originally Posted by dilettante
Wow, is Dore still free? Is he still doing videos?
Funnily enough, the obvious answers to those questions rather undermine the point you seem to be trying to make.
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Apr 26th, 2022, 05:11 AM
#7
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Originally Posted by dilettante
Such a revealing sentiment. You can almost taste the fear in those scare quotes.
I can't stop you from gleaning out of my statement what suits you but I can tell you how wrong you are about it.
I wonder how Twitter and Musk's electric cars will go over in China. He will be able to sell the cars but not advertise them on Twitter. Is that the "town hall", "free speech" platform Musk envisions?
Last edited by TysonLPrice; Apr 26th, 2022 at 05:24 AM.
Please remember next time...elections matter!
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Apr 25th, 2022, 08:01 PM
#8
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Yeah, it wont have any effect (at least not directly) on me. Have never used Twitter.
Musk seem to show his true colors in 2020 when he was throwing a fit about any of the COVID rules that would effect production at his car plant here in Ca.
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Apr 25th, 2022, 09:30 PM
#9
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Someone I know said that he is getting to Howard Hughes' level. I had to look up who that was.
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Apr 25th, 2022, 09:34 PM
#10
Re: Musk buys Twitter
I think it is awesome.
I am certainly no right-winger, but when the Biden administration says that it coordinates with social media then I can see where conservatives have a valid complaint about censorship.
I personally can’t wait to see MTG go full weird posts again.
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Apr 26th, 2022, 03:59 AM
#11
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Originally Posted by dday9
I think it is awesome.
I am certainly no right-winger, but when the Biden administration says that it coordinates with social media then I can see where conservatives have a valid complaint about censorship.
I personally can’t wait to see MTG go full weird posts again.
If the current administration asking big tech companies to stop spreading misinformation and help spread information about the benefits of vaccines upsets conservatives I say they "don't have a valid complaint".
Please remember next time...elections matter!
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Apr 26th, 2022, 08:19 AM
#12
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Originally Posted by TysonLPrice
If the current administration asking big tech companies to stop spreading misinformation and help spread information about the benefits of vaccines upsets conservatives I say they "don't have a valid complaint".
You do not have to be completely partisan all the time.
The current presidential administration asking big tech companies to censor information is a soft form of authoritarianism, something I thought you would oppose in all forms after the Trump administration.
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Apr 26th, 2022, 08:37 AM
#13
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Originally Posted by dday9
You do not have to be completely partisan all the time.
The current presidential administration asking big tech companies to censor information is a soft form of authoritarianism, something I thought you would oppose in all forms after the Trump administration.
I don't see it quite that way...I don't see putting pressure on a giant social media network to not publish content that harms people as being censorship. It is a plea for civility and social common good. A recent article alluded that perhaps a quarter of the Covid deaths could have been prevented by vaccinations. An attempt to quash the deliberate misinformation that caused that rises above censorship in my opinion.
Please remember next time...elections matter!
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Apr 26th, 2022, 08:54 AM
#14
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Then I am very glad that you are not in charge.
Principles like freedom of speech are very easy to defend. Arbitrary restrictions that only apply when you as and individual feel queasy about certain speech is much more difficult.
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Apr 26th, 2022, 09:06 AM
#15
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Originally Posted by TysonLPrice
It is a plea for civility and social common good
Adolf Hitler, February 1920
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ
πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν·
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Apr 25th, 2022, 09:35 PM
#16
Re: Musk buys Twitter
I vowed to avoid topics like this on this forum so I will say only this and no more: If Elon Musk actually does what he says he said he wants to do, it will be the best thing to ever happen to a major social media platform in the last 10 years. It's about time someone fought back against the madness. We couldn't ask for a better ally than the richest man on Earth. I really hope he is the man we think he is.
Last edited by Niya; Apr 25th, 2022 at 09:41 PM.
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Apr 25th, 2022, 10:08 PM
#17
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Originally Posted by Niya
I really hope he is the man we think he is.
From the sound of it, I don't think he is the man that you think he is from the outset. There's worse, no doubt, but there's better. To be frank, I don't think anyone that rich is ever going to be a genuine ally to the people because I don't think that anyone who was a genuine ally to the people would ever get that rich in the first place. He'd be far more concerned with the welfare of his workers, for a start.
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Apr 25th, 2022, 10:22 PM
#18
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Originally Posted by jmcilhinney
From the sound of it, I don't think he is the man that you think he is from the outset. There's worse, no doubt, but there's better. To be frank, I don't think anyone that rich is ever going to be a genuine ally to the people because I don't think that anyone who was a genuine ally to the people would ever get that rich in the first place. He'd be far more concerned with the welfare of his workers, for a start.
Speaking only for myself, I don't expect the man to be a saint. In fact I'd prefer that he wasn't. But if he is actually willing to combat the insanity that has been allowed to fester and grow on major social media platforms then I say we need him more than ever. It has gone unchallenged for too long. It needs to stop and if it takes Elon Musk to start fighting back then I'm all for it, despite his flaws.
I'm just gonna wait and see what happens.
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Apr 26th, 2022, 02:13 AM
#19
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Apr 26th, 2022, 03:20 AM
#20
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Well Twitter was givin' the X on a lot of posts so the road was to block "free speech" so if that road stays put then Musk wouldena really have to do anything, so let's hope he "does something". Personally I'm skeptic by nature so we just have to wait and see.
Also...I know a guy, that posted some perfectly innocent strip dance at his home, 4 days ago and that was removed from Twitter and I got mad!...I mean he got mad and when,arr, when I heard that I got mad for him, that is...That's what I meant...
P.S. I only have a Twitter account for my band to be, but never used it. Personally I don't have any social media accounts.I'm old school on that. I have some accounts for flee market and such but that's about it.I don't know, I get irritated just thinking of posting stuff and I really don't have the 24/7 social posting bug and I never will, probably.
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ
πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν·
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Apr 26th, 2022, 03:26 AM
#21
Re: Musk buys Twitter
There are plenty of social media sites that will allow you to post anything you want. There have been plenty or attempts to kick start right wing sites in the wake of Trump's twitter ban, some have had some little traction like Parler, others have simply disappeared into obscurity. Sites like 4Chan have been around for years with less of a political bias but very few rules. You'll argue that sites like Facebook and Twitter are curtailing your free speech but they really aren't - they censor very little and what censorship they do usually consists of simply putting some piece of content behind an advisory. This does not curtail the speaker, it simply advises the listener. The rhetoric that your free speech is being eroded really doesn't stand up to examination and smacks of a martyr complex.
If you find yourself looking at the internet and thinking "I can't find anywhere here to express my views" it's almost certainly because your views are unwelcome to the vast majority of people. If people wanted to hear what you had to say I can guarantee that some entrepreneur would set up a platform that allowed you to say it.
I sense crash and burn...
I agree. It will last until someone starts posting some truly hateful crap at which point Musk will bow to the commercial imperative.
Last edited by FunkyDexter; Apr 26th, 2022 at 03:29 AM.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill
Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd
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Apr 26th, 2022, 03:55 AM
#22
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Well to be fair I don't do social media but an example I have is from Greece.
When the covid broke and people started to question some methods on youtube, for example vaccine and lockdowns, youtube started giving out yellows, that was a complain from the people that posted so they had, for example when saying vaccines to mime the vaccination gesture and not speak it out.
Also the social media that are more free are not that popular. There is no point on going to IJusthadanepiphany netowrk and post stuff.
From my point of view freedom of speech means freedom of speech. With some stand out exceptions like racism(tho that take a lot of conversation of what is really racism) and kid abuse or sell human organs on social, the heavy stuff, everything else should not be monitored...And strip shows at 4 in the morning...
P.S. The issue is that currently we are in a sphere that is pre determined of how people should act on social media and the rules are getting more and more specific. If Musk thinks out of the box and can force that to people then something good may come out, because, and I don't want to sound smarty or anything but most of the people are cowed on what their behavior must be on social media, so if they cowed one way or the other and Musk can accomplish, I mean uncow them,then that may make a difference...Or not...
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ
πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν·
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Apr 26th, 2022, 04:00 AM
#23
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Apr 26th, 2022, 05:29 AM
#24
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Originally Posted by sapator
freedom of speech means freedom of speech. With some stand out exceptions
Freedom means freedom... except when it doesn't. This is a right-wing staple (which doesn't mean that I'm necessarily calling you right-wing). So many people bleat about freedom but the fact is that they simply draw their line in a different place. Just look at Florida right now. How many people who go on and on about freedom of speech are cheering about the restriction of speech in schools while hiding behind the obvious lie of protecting children from grooming. I think that gun control is another perfect example. People will point to the Second Amendment and claim that they can have whatever gum they want because it says that the people's access to arms will not be restricted at all, but even those people believe in certain arms being restricted and even access to all arms being restricted for certain people. They'll claim that the founders didn't mean that people could carry bazookas while also claiming that the founders did mean assault rifles. Basically, it comes down to "freedom means what I say it means, which means that the things I want should be free and anything else shouldn't be". People may claim that I'm a hypocrite because I want to place restrictions on people too, but that argument fails because I'm not the one bleating about freedom in the first place. Of course I want as much freedom as possible for as many people as possible, but I'll state from the outset that I know that freedom needs to be curtailed in many situations for the sake of individuals and society at large. I find that right-wingers are generally not willing to sacrifice any of their own personal freedom for the sake of others. That seems to be one of the defining differences between left-wing and right-wing thinking these days, in my opinion.
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Apr 26th, 2022, 04:22 AM
#25
Re: Musk buys Twitter
the social media that are more free are not that popular
Agreed but ask yourself why. The answer is because the things you want to be able to say are things that other people don't want to listen to. If other people wanted to listen to them, those platforms would be popular.
To put it another way, you have a right to free speech. What you don't have is a right to be listened to.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill
Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd
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Apr 26th, 2022, 04:42 AM
#26
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Weeelll it depends.
Just to be clear I'm not confronting, we just exchange ideas.
If by popular we mean Tik Toc or however it's written then I'll pass and we really can't say that people did not want to listen on covid or lockdowns. If so we go on the cowed opinion I expressed.
Also let me put something else on the table and look a little further and see p.e. if voting was done in the future by "acclaimed" social media addresses or referendums where passed that way.
I'm play evil Musk right now but I have a tendency for the "absurd" .
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ
πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν·
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Apr 26th, 2022, 05:00 AM
#27
Re: Musk buys Twitter
I'm not confronting, we just exchange ideas
Yeah, I know
If so we go on the cowed opinion I expressed
But consider who's really doing the cowing and why. It's tempting to think that it's the companies or the government but it's not, it's society at large (using the free market as a vehicle). If the things you want to say are likely to drive other people away from a platform then you can expect the owners of that platform to curtail those topics because they represent lost revenue but let's be clear, it's not the owners of the platform driving that, it's public opinion. This is not new, society has always policed it's members and ostracised those with views it finds unacceptable.
Musk isn't a champion of free speech but he is betting that there's a market for a platform that allows content other platforms currently consider beyond the pale. But if he finds that any given topic starts affecting his bottom line you can bet your bottom dollar he will shut that topic down in a heart beat.
if voting was done in the future by "acclaimed" social media addresses
That would be where I'd check out because we'd be living in a true dystopia. I don't think it's really relevant here though, nobody is even considering taking away your right to vote.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill
Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd
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Apr 26th, 2022, 05:09 AM
#28
Re: Musk buys Twitter
I agree the cowing is done on social level and the companies than can take over and do stuff.
I mean consider why Facebook has those crazy stuff Tik Toc has and why Twitter is more "serious" (just to give an example, for what I know Tok can be more serious than facebook)
Originally Posted by FunkyDexter
That would be where I'd check out because we'd be living in a true dystopia. I don't think it's really relevant here though, nobody is even considering taking away your right to vote.
Aha...I did not mean to take away the right to vote, that would be too obvious. (think cowing + platform control)
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ
πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν·
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Apr 26th, 2022, 05:40 AM
#29
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Yes but you went on a rampage freedom hunt, I was speaking for the social media.
We can go there but that is another story.
I don't know what left-right wing means and I don't put myself into labels. That is an invention, and a good one may I add, to control people.
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ
πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν·
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Apr 26th, 2022, 06:33 AM
#30
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Originally Posted by sapator
Yes but you went on a rampage freedom hunt, I was speaking for the social media.
The principle is the same though. You said that freedom is freedom but then indicated what you think shouldn't be free. Why shouldn't people be free to be racist on social media? Whatever answer you give can almost certainly be applied to other things too, some of which you might not think should be restricted. It's just where you draw the line on what should be free and what shouldn't. Saying "freedom is freedom" is meaningless unless you are talking about completely unfettered freedom, but the only people who really believe in that a libertarian nutjobs.
Originally Posted by sapator
I don't know what left-right wing means and I don't put myself into labels.
That you don't apply labels to yourself doesn't necessarily mean that they don't apply. Ideally, labels should be descriptive and people who meet the description can be grouped by that label for useful purposes. This is a problem across the board but one glaring example that I've been considering for a while is the right-wing position on transgender people. They talk about people denying reality and blah, blah but that's crap, because transgender people don't deny that their sex is what they were born with. If they did then they wouldn't consider themselves transgender, because specifically means that their gender doesn't match their sex. What these people really want is to create a "man" box and a "woman" box and put everyone into one of those boxes based on their criteria so that they can then deal with those people in one of the two ways they feel conformable with. Instead of letting people be what they want to be and dealing with them on that basis, they insist that others be what they feel comfortable dealing with. I had something else to say to tie this back in but I got distracted and forgot what it was. I may come back to it.
Originally Posted by sapator
That is an invention, and a good one may I add, to control people.
You mean like race?
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Apr 26th, 2022, 07:43 AM
#31
Re: Musk buys Twitter
It's not the same. There are some basic principles in western civilization like kids abuse that makes a western civilization.
I don't apply labels to parties , I would for example apply a label to me and say that I'm a programmer (a lousy one but still ) or a rock music afficionado.
If race is left or right wing then , yes I mean race. Is it?
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ
πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν·
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Apr 26th, 2022, 08:13 AM
#32
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Originally Posted by sapator
I don't apply labels to parties
I didn't say anything about political parties.
Originally Posted by sapator
If race is left or right wing then , yes I mean race. Is it?
I give up.
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Apr 26th, 2022, 09:12 AM
#33
Re: Musk buys Twitter
And who decides what is false or not?
As our esteemed colleague mentioned there was a "cut" for covid , content. In the end even now people are spread in between and of course situation has changed but back then they censorship the heck out of it. So precautions censorship? Are we going to the stone age again people?
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ
πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν·
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Apr 26th, 2022, 09:20 AM
#34
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Originally Posted by sapator
And who decides what is false or not?
Gee, I don't know. Maybe courts that hear evidence or maybe scientific research. Are you trying to say that nothing should be considered false just in case?
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Apr 26th, 2022, 09:23 AM
#35
Re: Musk buys Twitter
No, I meant they cut it out without court or scientific research. You just said it, "considered" . With "considered" , let's mouthful every opposite voice.
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ
πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν·
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Apr 26th, 2022, 09:45 AM
#36
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Now you are making an emotional argument.
In this hypothetical scenario, I could still feel terrible about the people who died in the resulting stampede while also being relieved that people were able to get out and not perish.
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Apr 26th, 2022, 09:54 AM
#37
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Originally Posted by dday9
Now you are making an emotional argument.
No I'm not. Not in the least. I'm making a completely practical argument, i.e. it is worth sacrificing some freedom so that we avoid situations where people might get sick, injured or die. I'm not saying we shouldn't be allowed to yell "fire" because we might feel bad. I'm saying it because I don't want people to be trampled needlessly. I'm not saying that finding exactly where to draw the line is easy but not doing it just because it's hard is not a good plan, in my opinion.
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Apr 26th, 2022, 11:05 AM
#38
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Originally Posted by jmcilhinney
I'd have to be pointed to specific examples to speak definitively but, even if someone turns out to be correct, that doesn't necessarily validate what they were saying. Broken clock and all that. Public health advice was generally issued based on the best information available at the time. People claiming that that advice was wrong were generally doing so for ideological reasons, not because they had access to better information. If they turned out to be right in certain instances that was due to luck as much as anything else. When people made similar claims and turned out to be wrong, how often did they put their hand up and admit they were wrong and, more importantly, why they were wrong?
It's a bit of a sharpshooter fallacy to point to the ones who got it right and and suggest that that means no one making unfounded claims that were not supported by available facts should have suffered any consequences. I would point to all the proponents of hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin as perfect examples. They made claims and then, when actual scientific evidence became available, they were shown to be wrong. At best, those people just went silent on the matter like it never happened and, at worst, they pretend that they never made those claims in the first place. If the scientific data came back and it actually did support the use of those treatments, those people would have been crowing that they were right all along but that doesn't mean that their claims were validated because they still had no factual basis for the claims when they made them.
These examples are only related to COVID and not other topics.
There were several examples of people being banned for pointing out that the non-vaccinated rate of deaths were misrepresented in the beginning because the date at which the reports would claim that x% of all COVID deaths/hospitalizations are those who are not vaccinated started before vaccines were available or widely accessible. There were others who were banned for pointing out that there has been an uptick in abnormal cases of myocarditis in those vaccinated and should probably looked at more closely. There were others who were banned for pointing to studies that show masks that are not properly fitted N95 masks (mainly cloth masks) have little to no effect on preventing the spread of COVID.
I think there is also the issue of misrepresentation. Look at your ivermectin example. Everyone I listened to suggested that they didn't know if ivermectin helped with COVID or not, but their doctor prescribed it to them because it might help and the side-effects are very minimal. What is real fouled up is saying that people who took ivermectin to help with COVID were taking horse de-wormer when board certified doctors were prescribing the medicine to patients. That's like saying people who take penicillin are taking dog medicine. (fyi - I didn't take ivermectin, I just "roughed" COVID out).
As far as non-COVID related topics, I think the most disturbing example is the Hunter Biden laptop story. Twitter made it so that you couldn't even share the link to the NY Post article. Then after the 2020 election but before the 2022 midterm elections gets ramped up, the NY Times legitimizes the story and now it's fine to talk about again?
Originally Posted by jmcilhinney
No I'm not. Not in the least. I'm making a completely practical argument, i.e. it is worth sacrificing some freedom so that we avoid situations where people might get sick, injured or die. I'm not saying we shouldn't be allowed to yell "fire" because we might feel bad. I'm saying it because I don't want people to be trampled needlessly. I'm not saying that finding exactly where to draw the line is easy but not doing it just because it's hard is not a good plan, in my opinion.
That makes sense. I thought you were making an emotional argument at first, so thank you for the clarification. I think we just fundamentally disagree on the extent of freedom of speech.
I do not think that every speech is protected (i.e. not drawing a line). Like I said, slander, fraud, etc. these aught not be protected under freedom of speech. I just think where I draw the line and where you draw the line are further apart than being able to reconcile our differences.
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Apr 26th, 2022, 02:38 PM
#39
Re: Musk buys Twitter
As far as non-COVID related topics, I think the most disturbing example is the Hunter Biden laptop story. Twitter made it so that you couldn't even share the link to the NY Post article. Then after the 2020 election but before the 2022 midterm elections gets ramped up, the NY Times legitimizes the story and now it's fine to talk about again?
Just my two cents on that...it was right before the election and Rudi Giuliani was heavily involved. His credibility was in the gutter and he was literarily running around the world "digging" up evidence on Biden's son. He ended up barred for presenting lies in court which points to his credibility. The story was headlined by the "New York Post", owned by none other than Rupert Murdoch. Who owns Fox news that constantly pushed all that other election garbage...the Murdock family. When the Post was asked to share the information they were reporting on they refused. Summing that up, Giuliani involved, the Post owned by the same family that owned a network dedicated to defeating Democrats, refusing to share the information saying "trust me", and a national election just ahead. I think any "responsible" network would have been hands off.
Just the shear idiocy of the concept at the time. A laptop pops up with all that "evidence" from the Post who won't share it from a company owned by a network dedicated to lying and Rudi Giuliani was heavily involved
Last edited by TysonLPrice; Apr 26th, 2022 at 02:43 PM.
Please remember next time...elections matter!
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Apr 26th, 2022, 08:08 PM
#40
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Originally Posted by dday9
I think we just fundamentally disagree on the extent of freedom of speech.
I do not think that every speech is protected (i.e. not drawing a line). Like I said, slander, fraud, etc. these aught not be protected under freedom of speech. I just think where I draw the line and where you draw the line are further apart than being able to reconcile our differences.
That was one of my points in the first place. There are people (not necessarily you) who like talk as though they are the ones who believe in freedom and "we" don't, but it really just comes down to where different people draw the line between what they think should be free and what shouldn't. As I said earlier, I think that Florida right now is a perfect example, where so many right-wingers champion freedom with one breath and then cheer at the suppression of freedom the next. Even they know that what they're actually doing is wrong, so they have to hide it under the guise of protecting children from grooming.
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