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Thread: Musk buys Twitter

  1. #841
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Musk buys Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    Your answer has nothing to do with my comment to Dil's post. Your free to make comments on what you choose, no need to quote me then talk about something else.

    Dil said,


    I pointed out I had no problem finding information on Bidens gaffes that matched Twitter. So the statement seems false. It has nothing to do with information suppression on Twitter.

    Anyway, now that there a new Republican House majority the Hunter Biden thing will probably be brought back to life. And the Twitter world can have another shot at him.
    I'll make it simple then. I understand where dilettante is coming from and find nothing odd in what he said.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

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  2. #842
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Musk buys Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    And why is it unfair? It is unfair because biological males generally have certain physical advantages over biological females.
    Yes and I don't even need science to tell me this. I have half a lifetime of real life experience that tells me this is true. I won't deny my own eyes and my own experiences. It's common sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    Those advantages will not be present in trans women who have undergone certain medical treatments.
    I guess this is my point of contention because I absolutely do not believe this. We like to think because we put a man on the moon, invented anti-biotics and have nuclear power that we are somehow so advanced. As a species we don't know anything about anything. We have barely scratched the surface of knowledge on anything, least of all biology. Sure, we cured polio and learned how to transplant a heart but even so, we still barely know anything about human physiology and biological systems in general, human or not. I am no where close to being convinced that our knowledge is so complete that we have a full understanding of the differences between sexes and can change one into the other. Maybe one day we would be able to change an actual man into an actual woman and vice versa but today is not that day as far as I'm concerned. No one can convince me otherwise.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

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  3. #843
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Musk buys Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    Should Alex Jones have had his Twitter account reinstated?
    This is exactly what I'm talking about when I say you guys make no effort towards understanding. If you did you wouldn't need to ask me this. You would know that I absolutely think he should be reinstated. I'm not so entitled to want the man silenced just because I think he is a little nuts. Even if I'm not so interested is what he has to say there are people who want to hear what he has to say so why in God's name would I want to impose my will upon those people by denying them his voice?
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

  4. #844
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Musk buys Twitter

    @jmcilhinney

    At the risk of going down another rabbit hole of never-ending arguments, I have always found something disturbing about wanting to change who you fundamentally are in the biological sense. I could understand getting treatments for something that could kill you like a bad heart or cancer but changing your sex? Do we really know enough to say that attempting to do so is the right course of action? I'm not convinced we know enough it to be taking such definitive positions. For all we know 200 years from now we would discover that this so called gender dysphoria is the result of some kind genetic, hormonal or psychological glitch? It wasn't that long ago we believed that some illnesses were caused by evil spirits. Of course we eventually discovered there was such a thing as microorganisms and that they can affect our health. Our descendants might look at the things we are doing as barbaric. It is my view we are still stumbling around in the dark with no actual clue about what the hell we're doing and we should act accordingly. So far we have been acting as if we know everything and we're not wrong. This kind of arrogance just rubs me the wrong way.

    My honest opinion is that this is all just a big con encouraged by surgeons and other medical practitioners so they can milk money from poor souls that think that there is something wrong with them and gender reassignment surgery is the only way to fix it. As much as I like capitalism, I think it brings out some of our worse tendencies. Perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps I'm not. I don't know so I'll err on the side of caution.
    Last edited by Niya; Nov 25th, 2022 at 03:12 AM.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

  5. #845
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    Re: Musk buys Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    I guess this is my point of contention because I absolutely do not believe this.
    And I don't imagine that you've made any actual effort to find out whether you're correct or not. You're making definitive statements based on limited information and understanding, assuming that your "common sense" is somehow more valuable than the many thousands of hours people have actually spent studying things. I recall a post you made not too long ago quoting George Carlin as evidence that climate change can't be real. What the actual fork?!

  6. #846
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    Re: Musk buys Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    This is exactly what I'm talking about when I say you guys make no effort towards understanding. If you did you wouldn't need to ask me this. You would know that I absolutely think he should be reinstated.
    Listen to yourself! You're complaining that I won't try to understand you and he's complaining that I'm trying to silence him. Why do you think I asked the question in the first place? You think he should have been reinstated but Elon Musk apparently doesn't. You praise him for his position on free speech but he seems not to believe that speech should be as free as you do. He appears to be an example of someone who claims one thing but, when push comes to shove, simply draws the line in a different place. You apparently have no line, which is a different kettle of fish.
    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    I'm not so entitled to want the man silenced just because I think he is a little nuts. Even if I'm not so interested is what he has to say there are people who want to hear what he has to say so why in God's name would I want to impose my will upon those people by denying them his voice?
    No one is silencing him. Banning someone from Twitter is not silencing them. Elon Musk himself said that banning Donald Trump from Twitter didn't deny him a voice so your great free speech hero obviously disagrees with you there too. This is just more playing the victim. Alex Jones has his own show and anyone who wants to hear him can watch or listen to that. No one is trying to silence Alex Jones because he's a little nuts. He's been banned from Twitter because he has ruined the lives of people whose lives had already been ruined. Are you aware of the Sandy Hook shooting and lies Jones told about the families whose children were killed there and the devastating impact that has had on their already shattered lives? Alex Jones is not a little nuts. He's an evil piece of garbage who is happy to destroy innocent people to make money conning right-wing idiots.

  7. #847
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Musk buys Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    You think he should have been reinstated but Elon Musk apparently doesn't. You praise him for his position on free speech but he seems not to believe that speech should be as free as you do.
    So what? He unbanned Jordan Peterson, The Babylon Bee, Andrew Tate, Donald Trump and Kathy Griffin. That says more to me about his position than his refusal to unban Alex Jones. The fact that even Alex Jones himself still supports Elon despite this settles the matter in my mind.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

  8. #848
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    Re: Musk buys Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    Perhaps I'm wrong.
    You're definitely wrong. I think you've really just summed up the issue here. You don't understand so it must be wrong. You complain that people won't make the effort to understand you but I really see no effort from you to understand this issue. I know a trans woman - she's the sister of my partner's best friend - and the idea that she was somehow recruited by money-hungry doctors is just beyond laughable. One of our favourite local comedians was Michael Workman, now Cassie Workman. She was a story-teller and one recurring theme was her poor relationship with her father, although an explanation was never provided. When we learned that she'd transitioned, the reason became apparent. I've also listened to what trans people online say about their own lives, both before and after transition, and I can say with utter confidence that you simply do not know what the hell you're talking about. It seems that, in your ignorance and arrogance, you have swallowed right-wing propaganda on this issue hook, line and sinker.
    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    I don't know so I'll err on the side of caution.
    Spoken from a place of privilege. Trans children are committing suicide because their lives are a misery. Where's your caution for them? Again, you've swallowed the "protect the children" line but, in true right-wing fashion, it's children like you who you want to protect. People who aren't like you don't deserve the same consideration.

  9. #849
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    Re: Musk buys Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    So what? He unbanned Jordan Peterson, The Babylon Bee, Andrew Tate, Donald Trump and Kathy Griffin. That says more to me about his position than his refusal to unban Alex Jones. The fact that even Alex Jones himself still supports Elon despite this settles the matter in my mind.
    Either all speech is free or not all speech is free. It's a pretty simple concept. Elon Musk apparently thinks that there's a line, beyond which speech is not free. I think there's a line, beyond which speech is not free. We simply draw the line in a different place. What part of this is confusing you?

  10. #850
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Musk buys Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    Alex Jones is not a little nuts. He's an evil piece of garbage who is happy to destroy innocent people to make money conning right-wing idiots.
    That's your opinion. My opinion is that the man gets carried away with his conspiracy theories and his overzealousness blinds him to the negative effects of his rhetoric. I don't think he intentionally wants to hurt anyone.

    So what now? Do we play the game of my opinion is better than yours? Or do we just accept that we have different opinions and move on?
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

  11. #851
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Musk buys Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    Either all speech is free or not all speech is free. It's a pretty simple concept. Elon Musk apparently thinks that there's a line, beyond which speech is not free. I think there's a line, beyond which speech is not free. We simply draw the line in a different place. What part of this is confusing you?
    My line is 4Chan....no moderation at all except for illegal stuff like kiddie porn. However, I am willing to accept some level of moderation because I understand that most people aren't emotionally equipped to deal with 4Chan's level of free speech. I'm just not willing to accept what existed before Elon's take over of Twitter.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

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  12. #852
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    Re: Musk buys Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    That's your opinion. My opinion is that the man gets carried away with his conspiracy theories and his overzealousness blinds him to the negative effects of his rhetoric. I don't think he intentionally wants to hurt anyone.

    So what now? Do we play the game of my opinion is better than yours? Or do we just accept that we have different opinions and move on?
    We could look at the results of his actions and base our decisions off that. We could conclude that reasonable person should not and could not be blind to such an obvious and predictable outcome. I don't necessarily think that he wanted to hurt anyone either, but I think that he didn't care at all if he did hurt them. In some ways, that's worse.

  13. #853
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    Re: Musk buys Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    I've also listened to what trans people online say about their own lives, both before and after transition
    I've also heard stories online where people said transitioning was the worst decision they ever made and they wished they weren't pushed into it. What's that old parable about hammers and every problem looking like a nail?
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

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  14. #854
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    Re: Musk buys Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    My line is 4Chan....no moderation at all except for illegal stuff like kiddie porn. However, I am willing to accept some level of moderation because I understand that most people aren't emotionally equipped to deal with 4Chan's level of free speech. I'm just not willing to accept what existed before Elon's take over of Twitter.
    Clearly, the majority don't want 4chan or that's where they'd be. Most people have a line that is not determined solely by legality. Now that Elon Musk owns Twitter, he can draw that line wherever he wants and the chips will fall where they will fall. Prior to that, the previous owners/executives of twitter could rdaw the line wherever they wanted. That was their right. Anyone else was free to create a competitor and several tried but failed to make much impact. Now that Musk is in charge of Twitter, it looks like it might fail too. I guess we'll see.

  15. #855
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Musk buys Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    You're definitely wrong. I think you've really just summed up the issue here. You don't understand so it must be wrong. You complain that people won't make the effort to understand you but I really see no effort from you to understand this issue. I know a trans woman - she's the sister of my partner's best friend - and the idea that she was somehow recruited by money-hungry doctors is just beyond laughable. One of our favourite local comedians was Michael Workman, now Cassie Workman. She was a story-teller and one recurring theme was her poor relationship with her father, although an explanation was never provided. When we learned that she'd transitioned, the reason became apparent.
    I don't doubt anything you've said here. But it does little to convince me. Again, the parable of the hammer and nails come to mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    Again, you've swallowed the "protect the children" line but, in true right-wing fashion
    Are you out of your mind? I am not willing to mutilate my children based on speculative theories about gender.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

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  16. #856
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Musk buys Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    Clearly, the majority don't want 4chan or that's where they'd be. Most people have a line that is not determined solely by legality. Now that Elon Musk owns Twitter, he can draw that line wherever he wants and the chips will fall where they will fall. Prior to that, the previous owners/executives of twitter could rdaw the line wherever they wanted. That was their right. Anyone else was free to create a competitor and several tried but failed to make much impact. Now that Musk is in charge of Twitter, it looks like it might fail too. I guess we'll see.
    Well Elon Musk's line is much closer to my ideal than the previous regime. It's also far more acceptable to most people. Only far left radicals have a problem with where he wants to draw the line.
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  17. #857
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    Re: Musk buys Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    I've also heard stories online where people said transitioning was the worst decision they ever made and they wished they weren't pushed into it. What's that old parable about hammers and every problem looking like a nail?
    As far as I'm aware, the majority of those who transition are glad they did and the most common reason for regret is societal reaction. Given that there are a significant number of people who would kick their own children out of the house for being gay, this is not a great surprise. I'm not denying that there may be people who regret it for other reasons but they are relatively uncommon but of course they are overblown by transphobes. I recall seeing a video by Matt Walsh showing someone who was transitioning from female to male and had lost their hair due to testosterone treatments. Walsh said "this is what happens when you give a 16 year-old girl testosterone" but that is misleading at best. That's what happened to that 16 year-old but I bet I could find examples of 16 year-old boys who had lost their hair as well. That is a possible outcome but it's very much in the minority. People die from taking aspirin but I don't hear Matt Walsh or his ilk recommending not taking it. They, and you, look for the negative outcomes and ignore the damage the positive outcomes and what denying treatment means for many. Matt Walsh being a prominent transphobe, I saw him again on Joe Rogan recently claiming that millions of children in America were on hormone treatments and, when it was actually checked, it turned out to be a few thousand. Even then he claimed that that must be wrong and it must really be hundreds of thousands, based on nothing but his own bias. That's children on puberty blockers and/or hormones (can't recall the actual specifics). Surgeries on children are almost unheard of. If this really is a case of money-hungry doctors recruiting kids to operate on then they appear to have failed miserably and must be going broke. Let's not facts get in the way of a good conspiracy though. They must be laughing it up with those climate scientists and their research grants, right?

  18. #858
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    Re: Musk buys Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    Only far left radicals have a problem with where he wants to draw the line.
    For someone who claims not to like words being redefined, you sure do play fast and loose with the words "far" and "radical". I guess we could include "crushing" in that list too.

  19. #859
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    Re: Musk buys Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    Matt Walsh being a prominent transphobe
    This here is exactly the problem. Matt Walsh doesn't believe in these radical gender theories anymore than I do and when we say so you guys come out of the gates storming with words like this and go on this war path where you start hearing phrases like "hate speech" You think we will listen to anything your side has to say after that? You think we will just roll over and take it? No. We will push back hard. This is not how we make progress. If you're failing to convince people like me and Matt Walsh, then improve the science or make better arguments. When you go on the war path like this it makes us think that you really don't have a leg to stand so your only recourse is to force us to accept it through shaming tactics, censorship, demonization and sometimes actual force through the law. I will never accept that. Either convince me or leave me alone. You will not bend me by swatting me with words and phrases like "transphobia", "bigotry" and "hate speech". This will only antagonize me and make me want to fight back. Why are leftists so desperate to force their ideology on the rest of us?
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

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  20. #860
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    Re: Musk buys Twitter

    I will also remind you that my problem with leftists is not just about their gender theories. That is only a small part of it. My views on their gender theories are not actually a primary concern for me but for some reason that seems to be a popular topic. There are aspects of their ideology that I dislike far more than just the gender stuff. Also, it's not even the fact that they believe the stuff they do but how fervently they want to enforce it on the rest of us through media propaganda, shaming language and censorship.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

  21. #861
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    Re: Musk buys Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    For someone who claims not to like words being redefined, you sure do play fast and loose with the words "far" and "radical". I guess we could include "crushing" in that list too.
    Here are a couple definitions of the word "radical":-
    a person who holds or follows strong convictions or extreme principles; extremist.
    thoroughgoing or extreme, especially as regards change from accepted or traditional forms:
    To most people the word "they" refers to a group of people. It is not a gender pronoun. Turning "they" into a gender pronoun is therefore a radical change and it's a change that leftists want to enforce therefore they are "radical leftists" because they believe in radical ideas...How is this so hard to understand?
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    Re: Musk buys Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    You think we will listen to anything your side has to say after that?
    It's cute that you pretend that you might just listen if only we weren't mean to you. There are plenty of people who would explain anything you wanted to know about gender without ever calling you a transphobe or otherwise hurting your feelings and they have been doing so for quite some time. How much have you or Matt Walsh listened to them? What effort have you ever made to even find out what they have to say? Matt Walsh makes a living pedalling his aversion to transgender people and yet, when he goes on one of the biggest podcasts in the world, he is out by several orders of magnitude about how many American children are receiving puberty blockers and/or hormone treatments, even though gender-affirming treatment for children is probably the subject he talks about the most. What does that tell you about how much he actually knows or understands the subject he talks definitively about and how much he cares about honesty?

    It's also funny that you criticise me for my ideology when Matt Walsh is literally driven by his religious ideology. He doesn't believe that gender exists but he does believe that people have souls. Wow, you really picked a winner there.

    You also say that we should improve the science but you don't even know what the current science is. Why should we believe that you'd make any more effort to understand any further science on the subject?

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    Re: Musk buys Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    To most people the word "they" refers to a group of people. It is not a gender pronoun. Turning "they" into a gender pronoun is therefore a radical change and it's a change that leftists want to enforce therefore they are "radical leftists" because they believe in radical ideas...How is this so hard to understand?
    I wish I could express just how dumb I think this is but the post would not be allowed. The fact that "they" is gender neutral is exactly the point. I just searched for "they definition" on the web and this is literally what I found:
    they
    [šeɪ]
    PRONOUN
    1. used to refer to two or more people or things previously mentioned or easily identified:
    "the two men could get life sentences if they are convicted" · "interweave the cotton fibres so that they knit together"
    people in general:
    "the rest, as they say, is history"
    INFORMAL
    people in authority regarded collectively:
    "they cut my water off"
    2. used to refer to a person of unspecified gender:
    "ask a friend if they could help"
    No one is turning "they" into anything that it isn't already. "They" has always been used to refer to a single person if you didn't know or didn't want to indicate their gender. That is exactly how you're being asked to use it in relation to non-binary people. The issue is that you don't want to accept that being non-binary is a thing. It feels weird to call someone "they" when you think you do know their gender - I feel that too - and so it comes down to whether you think how you feel or how they feel is more important. To be honest, I'm not sure that I really see being non-binary as equal to being transgender - maybe or maybe not - but it really is no skin off my nose to call someone "they" if it helps make their life better so I don't get bent out of shape about it. There are some people who say that pronouns aren't a big deal to them but then proceed to make a big deal about them, so what to think?

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    Re: Musk buys Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    You also say that we should improve the science but you don't even know what the current science is. Why should we believe that you'd make any more effort to understand any further science on the subject?
    As far as I know a lot of this stuff is based on how people feel. That's all I hear about is that they feel this way and they feel that way. "I feel like I was born to the wrong body" "I feel like I'm the wrong gender" I feel I feel I feel. That is not science. They're going to have to do better than that to convince me. I don't want to hear about what you feel, I want the hard data.

    Let me put it another way. If a person could not speak, is there any test that could be performed on their body or their DNA that could tell us that this person has this so called gender dysphoria? If the answer is yes then we perhaps there is a path where I could possibly embrace this idea. If the answer is no then it's all speculative as far as I'm concerned and I am under no obligation to accept it as fact.
    Last edited by Niya; Nov 25th, 2022 at 09:30 AM.
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    Re: Musk buys Twitter

    This is exactly what I'm talking about when I say you guys make no effort towards understanding. If you did you wouldn't need to ask me this. You would know that I absolutely think he should be reinstated. I'm not so entitled to want the man silenced just because I think he is a little nuts. Even if I'm not so interested is what he has to say there are people who want to hear what he has to say so why in God's name would I want to impose my will upon those people by denying them his voice?
    Alex Jones is not nuts, he knows exactly what he is doing. He has monetized outrage by lying about kids being killed, his actions directly caused the family's of those dead children to receive huge amounts of deaths threats and abuse both online and in person.

    Its not because Alex Jones has "crazy right wing views" that he should remain banned from Twitter, its because of the hate and abuse he has spouted and caused to be aimed at these families, and the fact he knew what he was saying was not true (we know this because he admitted it in Court, where he couldn't lie about it), yet not only kept saying it but monetized it via online donations from the people who believed him, benefiting him financially from his lies.

    This is why the man is Scum, not saying supposedly nutty things !
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    Re: Musk buys Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    I am under no obligation to accept it as fact.
    You're not obliged to accept anything as fact, of course, but one has to wonder why you wouldn't in this case. I believe it was FunkyDexter who earlier asked you whether you thought that trans people were lying when they described their experience and I'm not sure you ever answered but it seems like the answer must be "yes". You can say that gender identity is based on feelings and I'm not really going to try to refute that, but there's feelings and there's feelings. It's certainly not like someone feeling like chocolate cake with their tea or coffee rather than a biscuit or not feeling like going out today. By your standards, we'd have to conclude that love isn't real, but I'm not sure that many people would make that argument. Love is more transient than gender identity too. When trans people describe their gender identity, it appears to be consistent from person to person and it appears to be persistent within an individual. Those with expertise in mental and physical health who have studied transgender people have concluded that there's something there. I don't claim to understand exactly what it is but it's something so, to borrow a phrase, I'm going to err on the side of caution, which means I'm going to treat the people who say that they are transgender the way they want to be treated because to not do so appears to make their already-difficult lives worse and it literally has zero effect on me and my life. What reason do I have to not accept it?

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    Re: Musk buys Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers View Post
    Alex Jones is not nuts, he knows exactly what he is doing.
    Maybe Niya doesn't know exactly what Alex Jones has said and done, not being American, but it's hard to believe that dilbert isn't aware. That they seem to care so little about the pain he has caused, both directly and indirectly, to people who had already endured the pain of the death if a child shows just how callous they are. It's my opinion that one of the defining characteristics right-wing thinking and left-wing thinking is how much you care about people who are not like you. I think we're seeing that play out on this issue, amongst others.

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    Re: Musk buys Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    As far as I know a lot of this stuff is based on how people feel. That's all I hear about is that they feel this way and they feel that way. "I feel like I was born to the wrong body" "I feel like I'm the wrong gender" I feel I feel I feel. That is not science. They're going to have to do better than that to convince me. I don't want to hear about what you feel, I want the hard data.

    Let me put it another way. If a person could not speak, is there any test that could be performed on their body or their DNA that could tell us that this person has this so called gender dysphoria? If the answer is yes then we perhaps there is a path where I could possibly embrace this idea. If the answer is no then it's all speculative as far as I'm concerned and I am under no obligation to accept it as fact.
    That's a an interesting point, but you already said that it was wrong. I agreed with you earlier when you said that we were fumbling around in the dark on some of this. We can't currently show some chemical source for gender dysphoria, but that doesn't mean that such doesn't exist. In fact, there's a school of thought, which you might belong to, that EVERYTHING we are, everything we feel, everything we perceive, and so on, is just chemicals, in which case there pretty much HAS to be such a chemical basis for gender dysphoria. In fact, that would be technically true even if you don't believe gender dysphoria is real, since even a thought would have a chemical basis.

    We have come a long ways. We certainly have a long ways to go. If we ever get there, I'm not at all sanguine as to what it will mean for humanity. If gender dysphoria is chemical, then how about conservatism? If you could change gender perception with a pill, would we then be able to change political views with a pill? Would anybody want that?

    Back in the early 90s, somebody tried to figure out the lineage of dog breeds (did corgis come from dachshunds, or dust mops, for example). The study failed because the level of technology was such that it wasn't possible to distinguish a corgi from a wolf. A decade later, our technological capability had moved so far that such a study would be possible (I have no idea whether or not it was ever done, though). We've moved on a couple decades from that. However, increasingly, it seems like people don't want to believe that. There are good reasons to want not to.
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    Re: Musk buys Twitter

    One other point I'd make is that the opponent of everybody is a 'radical'. They're either radical right or radical left. In fact, that's a radical statement, because it's a bit of an exaggeration.

    In any case, though, these positions aren't radical anything. Their opinions shared to some degree by the vast majority of people (assuming both sides are aggregated together). This isn't some fringe position held by a few loons like the flat earth or tinfoil hats. This is a major filter issue used to divide the general population into with us and against us. Nobody on either side is radical because of their belief on this position. They might be radical because of their hatred for the other side, but they aren't radical because of this position.

    Once some chemical basis is found, a group of people will then become science deniers on the subject. Those will be the radicals on the position. Until then, it's just opinions on the position.

    Personally, I see a bit of both sides. Male/female has to do with the balance of a few hormones in the body. Note that women can start growing beards once menopause stops certain hormones, and men can grow breasts if they get a bit too much of some hormones. There is no set level for people, either. Everybody has some amount of testosterone, with men having somewhat more, but the amount changes daily, and in response to various events, and the variation is different in different people, and so forth.

    With all that variability, does it surprise me that some people fall into some gap? No, it does not. Does it surprise me that gender isn't totally binary? Of course not. As a person who is fairly ambidextrous, it doesn't surprise me at all that a supposedly binary (handedness) distinction proves to be far more fluid when people look a bit more closely.

    In fact, I would expect that there would be a range of people. Some would feel gender dysphoria, and some who do should feel it only temporarily. That's what I would expect, and that's what we are seeing. This presents a very great legal/societal challenge, and some people will try to reduce it to a simple binary solution, but it's not that.
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    Re: Musk buys Twitter

    That's your argument? Two-headed chickens exist so we have to consider them normal?

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    Re: Musk buys Twitter

    In fact, I would expect that there would be a range of people. Some would feel gender dysphoria, and some who do should feel it only temporarily. That's what I would expect, and that's what we are seeing. This presents a very great legal/societal challenge, and some people will try to reduce it to a simple binary solution, but it's not that.
    Everyone knows that no two people are the same, that we are non binary. Our size, shape, color, views, mental skills..... and we accept those differences. But some deny this fact when sexuality/gender is involved.

    I wonder how many of these people that want proof that gender dysphoria exists believe in God. Even if they don't believe in God it's clear they are holding sexuality/gender to a different standard. Like it's some kind of monster hiding under their bed.

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    Re: Musk buys Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    That's your argument? Two-headed chickens exist so we have to consider them normal?
    Please post pic's of two headed chicken and also some pic's of "normal" people. lol

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    Re: Musk buys Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    That's your argument? Two-headed chickens exist so we have to consider them normal?
    That's your rebuttal? Come up with something unrelated to anything I said, exaggerate it to the absurd, then pretend it is neither exaggerated nor absurd?
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    Re: Musk buys Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    Please post pic's of two headed chicken and also some pic's of "normal" people. lol
    That's a good point.
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    Re: Musk buys Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    You're not obliged to accept anything as fact
    Interesting how you say and then go on in this very same post to make an argument for why I should accept it.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    I believe it was FunkyDexter who earlier asked you whether you thought that trans people were lying when they described their experience
    I already covered this ad nauseam. I treat it the exact same way I threat people's faith. I will give you a baseline level of respect and understanding but if you push me beyond a certain point, you're probably going to hear things you don't want to. Here's one such quote:-
    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    Listen carefully, I do not care how other people want to live their lives. I don't care what god you worship or if you're an atheist. I do not care if you're a socialist or a capitalist. I don't care if you're a man that wants to become a woman or vice versa. I don't care if you're gay or straight.

    None of these things bother me to the slightest degree. However, if you're theist that wants to tell me about how lost I am because I don't accept Christ into my heart, we're going to have problems. You're going to find out how much I think your beliefs are a bunch of bronze age superstitious nonsense.

    The same thing goes for all this trans stuff. If you're a man that transitions to a woman for whatever reasons I have no problem with that. Hell, I'll even call you by whatever pronouns you like. But when the rubber meets the road, I still see you as a man. So the question is now, where does the rubber meet the road? There are two scenarios where this can happen. One, is if such a trans person were to express an sexual interest. If such a thing were to happen, I would refuse by giving some made up reason, but if you pressed me on the matter you would quickly find it's because I don't see you as a woman. The second instance where the rubber meets the road is if we are actually discussing gender issues such as we did in this thread. I see no reason not to be true to my beliefs since the discussion itself is about that.
    When people of faith tell me that they felt the touch of God, I do not doubt that they had an experience. However, their characterization of that experience is nothing more than a subjective interpretation of that experience. As such it makes no sense to ask me whether I think they are lying or not. The experience is true to the person experiencing it but there is no objective truth to talk about so the that question is meaningless. I don't know what's actually going on in your head, I only know your interpretation of it.

    [EDIT]

    This is why I asked this:-
    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    If a person could not speak, is there any test that could be performed on their body or their DNA that could tell us that this person has this so called gender dysphoria?
    I am looking for something objective to ground these gender theories for me. Because if it's all in your head, then it remains in the domain of religion and not science.
    Last edited by Niya; Nov 25th, 2022 at 06:36 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Two-headed chickens exist so we have to consider them normal?
    Sums up leftists pretty well.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

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    Re: Musk buys Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    That's your argument? Two-headed chickens exist so we have to consider them normal?
    Average/normal in everyway and the chicken...
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    Re: Musk buys Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    In any case, though, these positions aren't radical anything.
    This reminds me of meme I saw recently on Twitter:-



    The implication here should be obvious.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

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    Re: Musk buys Twitter

    Well of course people vary along various spectra.

    Some guy might be left-handed, need corrective lenses to see well, be shorter than average, missing toes due to an accident, grown up with one parent who died and left him orphaned at 9 years old, had to leave school to work at age 14, etc, etc.

    All of those can be obstacles to one degree or another in most human societies. Combined, things only get rougher for him.

    But which of these can be singled out as positives? Which get him any special considerations from society?

    I guess I just don't understand this discussion.

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    Re: Musk buys Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    Even if they don't believe in God it's clear they are holding sexuality/gender to a different standard. Like it's some kind of monster hiding under their bed.
    Well when you leftists stop beating us over the head with it every chance you get, then you wouldn't have to hear what we think about it.
    Last edited by Niya; Nov 25th, 2022 at 07:56 PM.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

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