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Oct 31st, 2022, 08:06 PM
#321
Re: Musk buys Twitter
I make no judgements as to whether he is good or evil nor do I care that he has made money off it.
lol, thanks that brightened my day.
You make no judgements about people. That all I ever see you do. Even people you've never met or know anything about. You've judged 95% of people to be idiots.
Calling someone "morally bankrupt" is more of an opinion than a fact
Of coarse it's an opinion, that's all any of this is. Well, he has been found guilty in a court of law of knowingly making false statement. I guess that's fact. As for Left/Right/good/bad, it just opinion.
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Oct 31st, 2022, 08:08 PM
#322
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Originally Posted by Niya
What do you believe? That's leftists are worse? Or that I'd prefer Alex Jones over them?
Now your just trolling.
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Oct 31st, 2022, 08:16 PM
#323
Re: Musk buys Twitter
I'm just worried that you might start creating an AI girlfriend.
My usual boring signature: Nothing
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Oct 31st, 2022, 08:55 PM
#324
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
I'm just worried that you might start creating an AI girlfriend.
Ha,
Or are you trying to use reverse psychology????
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Nov 1st, 2022, 03:49 AM
#325
Re: Musk buys Twitter
I'll add some extras to your list:-
- The plan to kidnap Gretchen Whitmer
- The violent insurrection on Jan 6th in an attempt to reverse a legitimate election
- The attack of Nancy Pelosi's 82 year old husband with a hammer and zip ties
- The intimidation of legitimate voters at legal drop boxes
- The intimidation of election officials
I know that you're trying to make the argument that the rise of extremism on the Right is somehow the fault of the Left but the argument you are actually making is that elements of the Right, having failed to make their argument on its intellectual merits, are turning to extremism, denial of reality and political violence.
I actually agree that the rise in extremism we see on the Right is largely a reaction to the traction of Left but, frankly, extremism we see on the Left is a usually reaction to traction on the Right. This cuts both ways and really doesn't stand as the anti Left argument you want it to. It's an anti extremism argument, I'll give it that.
I'd also point out that "Look at what you made me do" is a gaslighting argument typically deployed by domestic abusers.
Last edited by FunkyDexter; Nov 1st, 2022 at 03:57 AM.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill
Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd
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Nov 1st, 2022, 05:55 AM
#326
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Originally Posted by FunkyDexter
I'll add some extras to your list:-
- The plan to kidnap Gretchen Whitmer
- The violent insurrection on Jan 6th in an attempt to reverse a legitimate election
- The attack of Nancy Pelosi's 82 year old husband with a hammer and zip ties
- The intimidation of legitimate voters at legal drop boxes
- The intimidation of election officials
I know that you're trying to make the argument that the rise of extremism on the Right is somehow the fault of the Left but the argument you are actually making is that elements of the Right, having failed to make their argument on its intellectual merits, are turning to extremism, denial of reality and political violence.
I actually agree that the rise in extremism we see on the Right is largely a reaction to the traction of Left but, frankly, extremism we see on the Left is a usually reaction to traction on the Right. This cuts both ways and really doesn't stand as the anti Left argument you want it to. It's an anti extremism argument, I'll give it that.
I'd also point out that "Look at what you made me do" is a gaslighting argument typically deployed by domestic abusers.
I find it very disturbing that you would classify the backlash against the madness of the left as "extremism".
Originally Posted by FunkyDexter
I'd also point out that "Look at what you made me do" is a gaslighting argument typically deployed by domestic abusers.
In other words, we should just be quiet and do as we're told. The Germans did that when Adolf Hitler became chancellor of Germany. Remember what happened next?
Originally Posted by wes4dbt
You make no judgements about people. That all I ever see you do. Even people you've never met or know anything about. You've judged 95% of people to be idiots.
If someone allows themselves to be convinced that men can get pregnant, then they are an idiot. There's just no other way to spin that. It's really that simple. The leftist cult preaches a lot of nonsense that are unjustifiable as anything other than stupidity.
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Nov 1st, 2022, 06:19 AM
#327
Re: Musk buys Twitter
I find it very disturbing that you would classify the backlash against the madness of the left as "extremism".
You don't think that attacking people with hammers, attempting to abduct government officials and violent insurrection qualify as extremism?
In other words, we should just be quiet and do as we're told.
Not what I said.
The Germans did that when Adolf Hitler became chancellor of Germany.
Godwins Law. What you are facing is not comparable to the persecution faced by the Jews in 1930s Germany.
Be very careful about the language you choose to use. Your leash is currently shorter than most and if I feel you're being inflammatory I'm going to act sooner rather than later.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill
Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd
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Nov 1st, 2022, 07:36 AM
#328
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Originally Posted by Niya
If someone allows themselves to be convinced that men can get pregnant, then they are an idiot.
I always find this argument rather silly and it's really just a strawman. Do you think that Elliot Page can get pregnant? I would wager that you do, and I would wager that you don't think that that makes you an idiot. The people you are talking about consider Elliot Page to be a man and it is men like him - trans men - who they are correctly convinced can get pregnant. The people you are talking are convinced all the same people can pregnant as you are. They don't think that someone born biologically male can pregnant any more than you do. If you have an issue with those people then you issue is with the definition they use for "man". You don't say it like that because quibbling over definitions is something that all sorts of people do over all sorts of things and that doesn't seem nearly crazy enough.
I recently heard Ben Shapiro say that a significant proportion of the population believed that they were a member of the opposite sex. This is blatantly false. Given that Shapiro is an outspoken transphobe and has been for some time, you'd expect that he would have a clear understanding of what he was arguing against. This statement makes it clear that either he doesn't understand what he's arguing against, even after all this time, or that he's a liar. Given that Shapiro is not an idiot and based on what else I've heard from him, it's pretty obviously the latter and this is just standard fare from the anti-trans brigade. Given that your gender identity not matching your biological sex is the very definition of being transgender, every transgender person must acknowledge their biological sex by definition. He can't accept that though, because then he wouldn't be able to paint transgender people as denying the reality of biological sex, which they clearly do not.
Basically, if you've got evidence that gender identity is not a real thing then you would present that. Lying about what transgender people and their allies believe just demonstrates you don't have such evidence. At best, you can claim that the word "gender" should be synonymous with "sex". Even if we were to grant you that, what we are calling "gender" now doesn't go away. It's the same argument just with different words and you still don't have any more evidence. It's kinda funny because, as an atheist, I see exactly the same thing with theists arguing about definitions. I say that I'm an atheist because I lack a belief if the existence of any gods and they often insist that "atheist" does and can only mean "one who believes there are no gods" and they'll spend a lot of energy on that. It's pointless though, because if I were to grant them that then all that means is that I'm not an atheist but I still don't believe in their god, so they've achieved nothing. If they had evidence that their god existed then they'd provide that instead of quibbling about definitions. Same goes here.
Before someone else brings it up, I know that some people like to claim that transgender people are akin to theists in that they both claim a personal experience that others can't verify. That's true as far as it goes but there's a big difference. Transgender people are only making a claim about themselves and not anything external to themselves, while theists are making a claim about something external to themselves. Theists claim knowledge of entities beyond themselves and often in direct contradiction with other theists - even those who believe in the same god(s) - while transgender people only make claims about themselves that seem to be consistent amongst pretty much all transgender people. I'm OK accepting that a particular theist has had a particular experience, but what they claim that experience means is another matter altogether. I certainly don't have to accept that it means that there's beardy sky wizard that created universe and hates butt sex, or any of the other conclusions that theists draw, most often before they have their experiences and after they've been told what conclusion to draw by other theists. Transgender people generally say that they knew there was something there even before they had any idea that being transgender was a thing and their descriptions of being transgender seem pretty consistent. For someone else to deny that their experience is real is the height of arrogance and that is the real denial of reality.
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Nov 1st, 2022, 09:08 AM
#329
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Originally Posted by jmcilhinney
I always find this argument rather silly and it's really just a strawman. Do you think that Elliot Page can get pregnant? I would wager that you do, and I would wager that you don't think that that makes you an idiot. The people you are talking about consider Elliot Page to be a man and it is men like him - trans men - who they are correctly convinced can get pregnant. The people you are talking are convinced all the same people can pregnant as you are. They don't think that someone born biologically male can pregnant any more than you do. If you have an issue with those people then you issue is with the definition they use for "man". You don't say it like that because quibbling over definitions is something that all sorts of people do over all sorts of things and that doesn't seem nearly crazy enough.
Elliot Page is just as much a man as I am a cat. Living her life as a man doesn't make her one. Womanhood and manhood are not a costumes that you can change at will. That being said, I have nothing against her lifestyle choices nor do I see a problem with referring to her as a man publicly as a matter of respect for her choices. There's no reason not to be courteous and respect her wishes so long as she isn't hurting anyone. I'm just not willing to deny the reality that she is in fact a woman.
Originally Posted by jmcilhinney
I recently heard Ben Shapiro say that a significant proportion of the population believed that they were a member of the opposite sex. This is blatantly false.
How would you characterize this "belief" as he called it?
Originally Posted by jmcilhinney
Transgender people generally say that they knew there was something there even before they had any idea that being transgender was a thing and their descriptions of being transgender seem pretty consistent. For someone else to deny that their experience is real is the height of arrogance and that is the real denial of reality.
There are people in prisons who have committed murders and made claims they did it because they were possessed by demons or compelled by God. We should free those people since it's arrogant to deny their experience was real.
Last edited by Niya; Nov 1st, 2022 at 09:15 AM.
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Nov 1st, 2022, 09:20 AM
#330
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Also, jmc, I want to ask you something. Your answer to this question would help me understand you a lot better. Lets say you're single and you met a woman that checks all your boxes in terms of the things you find attractive, whether it's her personality, looks or both. Lets say you're willing to go home with her and she told you that she was born a man and transitioned. Would you still go home with her? My answer would be no but what would you do?
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Nov 1st, 2022, 09:42 AM
#331
Re: Musk buys Twitter
I would answer with: I'd need a lot more information. I'd feel that was uncharted waters that I didn't understand. My response to that is usually to investigate...unless I don't have time, which in this case we're pretty much assuming is not the case. So, I'd need a lot more information.
One thing I'd point out is that male/female is a pretty binary situation. As with everything else in biology, we aren't all that binary. We may not even be fixed into one state or another, as some recent advances have shown. After all, we all create the same hormones, just in different quantities. But even that is 'on average'.
One might get to chromosomes, with X and Y, but that's misleading, as well. For one thing, we know there are more combinations than that, and the Y chromosome has fairly little on it, whereas everybody has an X....though fish can be created without one, so I'm not totally certain that's true for people, either.
I was listening to an interview with Anthony Hopkins about creating the Hannibal Lecter character. He felt that the person was intensely certain that he was right. That led to a quote about Hitler having lots of books, but reading none of them because he felt that he was already right and had nothing to more to learn.
The point was: When you're sure you are right, you are most likely to make a mistake.
My usual boring signature: Nothing
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Nov 1st, 2022, 10:01 AM
#332
Re: Musk buys Twitter
There are people in prisons who have committed murders and made claims they did it because they were possessed by demons or compelled by God. We should free those people since it's arrogant to deny their experience was real.
If a trans person committed murder and said they did it because they were trans we would still lock them up. Acknowledging somebodies experience does not require us to ignore their crimes.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill
Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd
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Nov 1st, 2022, 10:06 AM
#333
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
I would answer with: I'd need a lot more information. I'd feel that was uncharted waters that I didn't understand. My response to that is usually to investigate...unless I don't have time, which in this case we're pretty much assuming is not the case. So, I'd need a lot more information.
I find this answer very interesting. Most people would say no without thinking twice, myself included.
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
I was listening to an interview with Anthony Hopkins about creating the Hannibal Lecter character. He felt that the person was intensely certain that he was right. That led to a quote about Hitler having lots of books, but reading none of them because he felt that he was already right and had nothing to more to learn.
The point was: When you're sure you are right, you are most likely to make a mistake.
Unlike Hitler, I have listened to the "other side" and came to the conclusion that these people are quite mad.
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
One thing I'd point out is that male/female is a pretty binary situation. As with everything else in biology, we aren't all that binary. We may not even be fixed into one state or another, as some recent advances have shown. After all, we all create the same hormones, just in different quantities. But even that is 'on average'.
One might get to chromosomes, with X and Y, but that's misleading, as well. For one thing, we know there are more combinations than that, and the Y chromosome has fairly little on it, whereas everybody has an X....though fish can be created without one, so I'm not totally certain that's true for people, either.
You are quite correct here. Unfortunately for the purposes of discussions like this, it's better to pretend that we are still primitive humans with no understanding of these things. It is simply not practical for us to live our day to day lives trying to rigorously test everything that becomes a cause for disagreement, especially when our knowledge is still very much incomplete. At some point we just have to go with our gut and choose a side. That's all any of us can really do at the end of the day.
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Nov 1st, 2022, 10:12 AM
#334
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Would you still go home with her?
My answer would be, I don't know, it's a hypothetical that has never come up.
It's sort of similar to something a gay freind of mine always says. Tell him you're straight and he'll respond, "You just haven't met the right guy yet" and he's basically right. Love isn't rational and can change in the moment.
it's better to pretend that we are still primitive humans
That strikes me as a bad position.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill
Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd
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Nov 1st, 2022, 10:13 AM
#335
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Originally Posted by FunkyDexter
If a trans person committed murder and said they did it because they were trans we would still lock them up. Acknowledging somebodies experience does not require us to ignore their crimes.
You missed the point.
Demon possession and gender dysphoria are both 100% subjective experiences. Yet we treat them unequally. If we did treat them equally then we would be forced to acknowledged that a demon possessed murderer is innocent as it was the demon that committed the crime and not the man. Why are these two subjective ideas treated so differently is the question I was getting at.
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Nov 1st, 2022, 10:15 AM
#336
Re: Musk buys Twitter
From now on, please consider my gender as a KILLER SPACE ROBOT!!!
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ
πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν·
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Nov 1st, 2022, 10:17 AM
#337
Re: Musk buys Twitter
we would be forced to acknowledged that a demon possessed murderer is innocent
Try that defence in court and see how far you get. Indeed, Alex Jones recently tried the equivalent of that defence. He argued that he genuinely believed Sandy Hook was a false flag. It didn't prevent him from being found guilty. That our legal system does not disregard guilt due to belief is actually a fundamental part of it.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill
Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd
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Nov 1st, 2022, 10:20 AM
#338
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Maybe some interesting reading material about gender ideas by the native Americans and thus not being some modern woke sentiment:
https://www.ihs.gov/lgbt/health/twospirit/
https://indiancountrytoday.com/archi...t-five-genders
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Nov 1st, 2022, 10:43 AM
#339
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Originally Posted by sapator
From now on, please consider my gender as a KILLER SPACE ROBOT!!!
I always have.
My usual boring signature: Nothing
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Nov 1st, 2022, 10:51 AM
#340
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Originally Posted by Niya
I find this answer very interesting. Most people would say no without thinking twice, myself included.
I'm not particularly shallow. I find lots of women attractive to look at, but I have to know and like the person, too, so you've kind of proposed a scenario where I got to know the person well enough that I really liked them, already, at which point...well, there's a foundation on which to have a conversation.
Unlike Hitler, I have listened to the "other side" and came to the conclusion that these people are quite mad.
Yes, and that's what's different. We all feel that way, and are still talking. I don't think anybody is changing their minds. Perhaps not even a little bit, but we're still talking.
You are quite correct here. Unfortunately for the purposes of discussions like this, it's better to pretend that we are still primitive humans with no understanding of these things. It is simply not practical for us to live our day to day lives trying to rigorously test everything that becomes a cause for disagreement, especially when our knowledge is still very much incomplete. At some point we just have to go with our gut and choose a side. That's all any of us can really do at the end of the day.
Yes, and you know what our guts are full of...
The point I made earlier applies here, though it can probably be simplified. We may well have to choose a side, but we should always keep in mind that we are wrong to some extent. We're just (I have to learn to stop using words with the letter J, or get the darn key fixed on this computer, it took me something like three tries to type that word) the blind men and the elephant, and as somebody on here said...you'd better hope that's the trunk.
My usual boring signature: Nothing
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Nov 1st, 2022, 10:59 AM
#341
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Originally Posted by Arnoutdv
I have heard that there was something like this in Pakistan, historically, and hints of it in China.
However, back in what was probably the 90s, after the fall of the USSR, somebody noted that the evangelical movement had started focusing on gay rights. It was an issue they had largely ignored, and were no longer ignoring. The point they were making is that they are defined by their enemies. They needed somebody to fight against. Avowedly atheistic communism had been an excellent foil, but with it's demise, they needed something new.
It (doggone it, I wanted to use a J word) seems like the right mostly wants to oppose somebody, these days. They don't seem to be FOR anything, (doggone it) JJJJJJust looking for something to be against, and picking on increasingly marginal groups as they lose fight after fight against more mainstream groups.
My usual boring signature: Nothing
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Nov 1st, 2022, 11:33 AM
#342
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Yeah, that was some interesting reading. So two spirits is kinda, sorta similar to our non-binary? Except not quite, it's people who see themselves as both genders at the same time rather than existing along a spectrum?
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill
Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd
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Nov 1st, 2022, 11:36 AM
#343
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Let me be clear here. I'm not in par with Niya rampage on the left right up down (from time to time) but haven't you figured out that he was setting a trap for some of you and you lost the argument?
...No?
It sums up as this, according to your answers:
Will you go with a sheep? No.
Will you go out with a transgender sheep? It depends.
That was completely DR Sbaitso. That was defending ideas for the sake of defending. I don't know if he did it intentionally but it was a checkmate.
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ
πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν·
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Nov 1st, 2022, 12:00 PM
#344
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Originally Posted by sapator
Let me be clear here. I'm not in par with Niya rampage on the left right up down (from time to time) but haven't you figured out that he was setting a trap for some of you and you lost the argument?
...No?
It sums up as this, according to your answers:
Will you go with a sheep? No.
Will you go out with a transgender sheep? It depends.
That was completely DR Sbaitso. That was defending ideas for the sake of defending. I don't know if he did it intentionally but it was a checkmate.
Only if you equate a sheep and a transgendered person as equals. Let's try and keep our comparisons in the same species.
In reality it doesn't matter what our answer was. Whether I find someone attractive or not doesn't change who they are, what they feel or their right to feel that way.
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Nov 1st, 2022, 12:06 PM
#345
Re: Musk buys Twitter
You are missing the point but I'm 99,9% sure that no one that got Niyaed will admit what took place.
And that was the last I have to say on the matter.
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ
πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν·
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Nov 1st, 2022, 12:31 PM
#346
Re: Musk buys Twitter
FBI Whistleblower: Capitol Police Letting Peaceful Protesters Inside Building On January 6 "Smelled Like Entrapment"
SHARYL ATTKISSON: Now in the intervening time, there’s a lot that came out with the trials of those individuals. What came out was that the FBI was driving the kidnapping plot through multiple informants and undercover agents. They included the militia group leader, Dan Chappel, an FBI informant who took the lead in plotting Whitmer’s kidnapping and offered up a credit card to buy bullets and supplies— paid for by the FBI.
More there including video.
Even with the massive ongoing effort to censor and then push "alternative facts" around events many facts are still out there to be found and the controversy still is not settled (er, stifled).
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Nov 1st, 2022, 01:15 PM
#347
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Originally Posted by FunkyDexter
Try that defence in court and see how far you get. Indeed, Alex Jones recently tried the equivalent of that defence. He argued that he genuinely believed Sandy Hook was a false flag. It didn't prevent him from being found guilty. That our legal system does not disregard guilt due to belief is actually a fundamental part of it.
So legally speaking Elliot Page is not a man just because she believes she is. Tell me, does it work like that in this case as well?
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Nov 1st, 2022, 01:22 PM
#348
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
I'm not particularly shallow. I find lots of women attractive to look at, but I have to know and like the person, too, so you've kind of proposed a scenario where I got to know the person well enough that I really liked them, already, at which point...well, there's a foundation on which to have a conversation.
This kind of sounds like a yes to me. In other words, the later revelation that she was born a man would no bearing on your decision. This is what I find interesting since that bit of information would matter more than anything to most people.
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Nov 1st, 2022, 01:23 PM
#349
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Originally Posted by sapator
Will you go with a sheep? No.
Will you go out with a transgender sheep? It depends.
That was completely DR Sbaitso. That was defending ideas for the sake of defending. I don't know if he did it intentionally but it was a checkmate.
First off, it was a question and it got an answer. I don't see how it proves anything one way or another. If it was a trap, you'd have to explain that quite a bit better. After all, a trap is suggesting that it's something that you actually notice, care about, or proves something in some way. That did none of the above.
But more importantly, why is it that the right immediately goes to livestock? They used the same argument about gay marriage, and did so quite publicly. It was always, "what would stop me from marrying X", where X is always some type of livestock. That was a frequently repeated public line. What is it with you folk and animals? Two consenting adults is quite a bit different from one and something that can't give consent one way or another.
My usual boring signature: Nothing
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Nov 1st, 2022, 01:34 PM
#350
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Originally Posted by Niya
This kind of sounds like a yes to me. In other words, the later revelation that she was born a man would no bearing on your decision. This is what I find interesting since that bit of information would matter more than anything to most people.
Not NO bearing, but it would certainly be something that would have to be discussed at some length.
It's somewhat irrelevant, though. I've never been part of any casual hookup scene. I've never been to bed with a woman I hadn't known for enough time for the situation you describe to even be a possibility. I know myself. I know what I want and don't want. No two people fit all that well together, and I'm not into fooling myself. If it's not a good fit out of bed, it doesn't matter what it's like in bed, cause I won't be there.
My usual boring signature: Nothing
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Nov 1st, 2022, 01:37 PM
#351
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Originally Posted by dilettante
That was interesting. Especially the part about the kidnapping plot. But I haven't paid much attention to it.
As for the headline. Whether some people walked in peacefully or not isn't very interesting, sort of a non factor. There was a violent attack on congress. If your trying to say that the FBI was in the crowd actively promoting the attack, that article doesn't make that case.
But your right, the controversy is not settle. Probably never will be. I'm still looking for the gunman on the grassy knoll. lol
Last edited by wes4dbt; Nov 1st, 2022 at 03:08 PM.
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Nov 1st, 2022, 02:05 PM
#352
Re: Musk buys Twitter
FBI Whistleblower: Capitol Police Letting Peaceful Protesters Inside Building On January 6 "Smelled Like Entrapment"
You're turning to Stephen Fredin as a source? A man who once claimed that it was impossible for a woman to become pregnant as a result of rape? And Sharyl Atkinson who has published debunked theories linking vaccines to autism? You need better sources than that given that the parties involved have been found guilty in a court of law.
legally speaking Elliot Page is not a man just because she believes she is
Legally speaking he cannot use his gender to absolve himself of a crime. I'm not sure what you're trying to say beyond that.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill
Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd
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Nov 1st, 2022, 02:12 PM
#353
Re: Musk buys Twitter
There is more here:
WNN Exclusive Interview with FBI Special Agent Steve Friend
Almost too much though, it is long and slow and agonizing to sit through. Lots of meat there though.
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Nov 1st, 2022, 02:17 PM
#354
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Again, though: Steve Freind.
You need more than the word of a suspended FBI agent if you're going to challenge the finding of a court of law. What's the evidence?
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill
Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd
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Nov 1st, 2022, 05:30 PM
#355
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Originally Posted by FunkyDexter
Be very careful about the language you choose to use. Your leash is currently shorter than most and if I feel you're being inflammatory I'm going to act sooner rather than later.
Don't worry. This line of discussion and this thread is the last time I will participating in anything on VBForums. After that I'm never coming back here.
Originally Posted by FunkyDexter
Legally speaking he cannot use his gender to absolve himself of a crime. I'm not sure what you're trying to say beyond that.
Let's make it simple then. Is Elliot Page a man or a woman?
Last edited by Niya; Nov 1st, 2022 at 05:36 PM.
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Nov 1st, 2022, 06:24 PM
#356
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Originally Posted by Niya
Elliot Page is just as much a man as I am a cat. Living her life as a man doesn't make her one. Womanhood and manhood are not a costumes that you can change at will. That being said, I have nothing against her lifestyle choices nor do I see a problem with referring to her as a man publicly as a matter of respect for her choices. There's no reason not to be courteous and respect her wishes so long as she isn't hurting anyone. I'm just not willing to deny the reality that she is in fact a woman.
And that simply demonstrates why your previous comment is a strawman. Your issue is not that people are convinced that a man can get pregnant but rather that people refer to a person as a man in the first place, when you consider them to be a woman. You think it sounds crazier the other way though, so you use that because you want to think that those people are crazy, rather than that they just disagree with you.
Originally Posted by Niya
I'm just not willing to deny the reality that she is in fact a woman.
Except you are denying reality. You are denying the reality that words do not have inherent meaning but rather have usages. "Woman" is just a label that we put on something based on a set of characteristics. When you say that Elliot Page is a woman, you're saying that he has a specific set of characteristics. No one else is denying that. When we say that Elliot Page is a man rather than a woman, we are simply using a different set of characteristics to define those words. You might think that we shouldn't use those characteristics to define those words because that's not how they have been defined in the past, but plenty of words have changed meaning over time for various reasons, so there's nothing crazy about it. You might think that Elliot Page doesn't possess all those characteristics, but then you're making claims about his personal experience and that of other trans people that you simply can't back up. The reality is that you're policing language. I'm definitely not denying that reality.
Originally Posted by Niya
How would you characterize this "belief" as he called it?
I already answered that but just not listening seems to be a pattern, so let's try it again. I would characterise that belief as non-existent, i.e. trans people do not believe that they are members of the opposite sex. As I already stated quite clearly but you seem to have ignored, being transgender literally means that your gender doesn't match your sex, so acknowledging your sex is a prerequisite for being transgender. Elliot Page does not believe that his sex is male. Caitlyn Jenner does not believe that her sex is female. Etc. Ben Shapiro mischaracterises them for one of two reasons. Either he simply doesn't understand the topic that he spends so much time arguing about, or he does understand it and chooses to lie about it. I'm not sure which is worse.
Originally Posted by Niya
There are people in prisons who have committed murders and made claims they did it because they were possessed by demons or compelled by God. We should free those people since it's arrogant to deny their experience was real.
Once again, I already addressed the difference between being transgender and being religious but you seem to have simply ignored it. I wonder why that is. Firstly, those people are in jail for murder. Whether a god told them to murder someone does not change the fact that they murdered someone, so their experience is irrelevant to that. Secondly, as I have already clearly stated, trans people are making claims only about themselves. They make no claims about any being beyond themselves and yet their experiences all seem to be very consistent. Religious people are making claims about a being external to themselves, yet they have no good evidence that such a being exists. No one is denying that, in general, religious people have experiences. I fully accept that the religious experiences that many people have are real, but that doesn't mean that they map to anything beyond their own mind. If I have a dream about a unicorn, the dream is real, but that doesn't mean that the unicorn is real.
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Nov 1st, 2022, 11:48 PM
#357
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Michael Howard:
A common language is the most obvious binding element in any society.
No, you do not get to redefine vocabulary to fit your agenda.
Doublespeak
Languages already have words to adequately describe the cases and conditions you want to normalize by usurping other words. I just hope that radical culture warriors don't push so hard that they trigger really bad reactions that hurt all of us. Don't give so much oxygen, food, and fuel to radicals on the right.
It smells like the sort of crap we got out of the old South to justify the institution of slavery.
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Nov 2nd, 2022, 01:54 AM
#358
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Originally Posted by dilettante
Michael Howard:
No, you do not get to redefine vocabulary to fit your agenda.
Doublespeak
Languages already have words to adequately describe the cases and conditions you want to normalize by usurping other words. I just hope that radical culture warriors don't push so hard that they trigger really bad reactions that hurt all of us. Don't give so much oxygen, food, and fuel to radicals on the right.
It smells like the sort of crap we got out of the old South to justify the institution of slavery.
Don't think history supports that stance. Language is constantly evolving. Try reading Shakespeare. lol
I think the slavery comparison is interesting. At the core these issues are about human equality. What's the importance of labeling which sex they are? Not much really. Maybe none. I'm not going to spend my time trying to fine some necessity to do it.
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Nov 2nd, 2022, 02:44 AM
#359
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Originally Posted by dilettante
It smells like the sort of crap we got out of the old South to justify the institution of slavery.
We've had Hitler so I guess slavery was bound to come along soon after.
Originally Posted by dilettante
Languages already have words to adequately describe the cases and conditions you want to normalize by usurping other words.
That's interesting because I've heard plenty of people assert that "gender" is synonymous with "sex" but I've never heard anyone state what we should be using to refer to what we are calling "gender". It's usually an implicit or explicit assertion that it doesn't actually exist. So, what is this word or words that we should be using to describe what we are currently referring to as "gender"? This ought to be good.
Originally Posted by dilettante
No, you do not get to redefine vocabulary to fit your agenda.
People get to use words however they want for whatever reason they want. Some changes catch on and others don't. You don't get to tell people that they can't use words in a particular way because that's not how they've been used in the past. Lots of things are not how they used to be in the past and many for good reason. Are you one of those people who whine about how the homosexuals have commandeered the word "gay"? I could be wrong but I'm guessing not. I bet you've never once complained that someone used "gay" to indicate that someone was homosexual rather than happy and carefree. It's almost like you're just picking and choosing which words can and can't be redefined based on your ideology.
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Nov 2nd, 2022, 05:23 AM
#360
Re: Musk buys Twitter
Don't worry. This line of discussion and this thread is the last time I will participating in anything on VBForums. After that I'm never coming back here.
If only that were true...
Please remember next time...elections matter!
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