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Thread: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

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    Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    A thread got closed regarding this and I'd like to open it with it, hopefully, no one posting any comments to get the post closed. Shaggy Hiker posted:

    I'm leaning towards Putin doing nothing, especially after his recent speech. I think he realizes that the war would ultimately cost him too much. A quick war isn't likely, and a protracted war won't work out for him. The US would be fine with Russia getting into another Afghanistan quagmire.

    I'm not very confident about any of that, though. We'll see once the Olympics are over. I'd be willing to bet that nothing will happen until then.
    I think he tested the waters and it backfired. The previous administration held NATO in contempt and weakened it in many ways. In recent days NATO is coming together. Putin has had a couple of side meetings with Macron but I'm hoping this whole Russian aggression unites NATO.

    And hopefully the world community also. Putin is basically trying to redraw maps and world agreements by threatening an invasion. If there really is a global standard, the UN and all, that is illegal.

    Then again it is happening all over the world. I'm not going to look up the time periods but aren't we due for WW III. Nuclear war ends us...
    Last edited by TysonLPrice; Feb 3rd, 2022 at 06:04 PM.
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    The world is so simple when one is able to clearly tell which are the good guys and which are the bad guys, right? black and white. Putin is the bad guy and NATO are the good ones and "the world community" hopefully sees it the same way, but if some don't then they are in the camp of the bad guys, problem solved! that was easy!

    Don't get me wrong, i am in no way saying that putin is a good guy. all i am trying to say is that there are a lot of grey shades in between "good" and "evil" and NATO and US are certainly not all white and putin is certainly not all black.
    The good against evil story is something that is transported to us to shape a certain reality to make us willing to go to war.

    One comparison i read and found quite matching was this one: what if mexico decides to join the russian federation and russia demands that all US troops shall be withdrawn from mexican-us border?
    The US was not happy during the Cuba crisis, isn't it understandable that Russia isn't happy with Ukraine possibly joining NATO and warheads placed there?

    Edit: the terms "black" and "white" are not meant to be any racial discrimination but refer to good/bad without any implication that racial attributes like skin color have effects on good/bad behaviour! i certainly do not support such an idea!
    Last edited by digitalShaman; Feb 4th, 2022 at 04:59 AM.

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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    I certainly agree with the shades of grey issue.

    First I'll do the acknowledgement of Russian Grievance bit:-
    We often forget that the Warsaw Pact was set up in response to the formation of NATO, which was, of course, explicitly set up to contain Russia. Through that lens we were the aggressor in the cold war. I think we also behaved pretty shoddily toward Russia after the collapse of the USSR and we didn't do enough to support them in a transition toward a Western style democracy. Further, with specific regard to Ukraine, we in the West could do with reading a bit of history: Russia originally formed out of the Kievan Russ. Ukraine was the original Russia and the Kingdom of Muscovy grew out of it. Ukraine is the spiritual Motherland. In that context, from the Russian perspective, the best analogy isn't Mexico joining a Russian confederation, it's a separatist New England joining a Russian confederation.

    But...

    Two wrongs don't make a right and we need to deal with the fact on the ground as they are today. At this point any pretence of Russia being a democracy is gone, it's a straight up Totalitarian Regime with a state controlled propaganda machine backing it up. Regardless of any sympathies we may have for how Russia got here, that's the entity we are dealing with now. Meanwhile the people of Ukraine have roundly rejected a totalitarian regime and embraced democracy. Under that democratic system they have expressed a pretty clear desire to join NATO and embrace the West. Regardless of Putin's sentiments and regardless of the history, the people of Ukraine have a right to pursue their own path and we should not allow Putin to distract us from that fundamental position.
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by digitalShaman View Post
    The world is so simple when one is able to clearly tell which are the good guys and which are the bad guys, right? black and white. Putin is the bad guy and NATO are the good ones and "the world community" hopefully sees it the same way, but if some don't then they are in the camp of the bad guys, problem solved! that was easy!

    Don't get me wrong, i am in no way saying that putin is a good guy. all i am trying to say is that there are a lot of grey shades in between "good" and "evil" and NATO and US are certainly not all white and putin is certainly not all black.
    The good against evil story is something that is transported to us to shape a certain reality to make us willing to go to war.

    One comparison i read and found quite matching was this one: what if mexico decides to join the russian federation and russia demands that all US troops shall be withdrawn from mexican-us border?
    The US was not happy during the Cuba crisis, isn't it understandable that Russia isn't happy with Ukraine possibly joining NATO and warheads placed there?

    Edit: the terms "black" and "white" are not meant to be any racial discrimination but refer to good/bad without any implication that racial attributes like skin color have effects on good/bad behaviour! i certainly do not support such an idea!
    I see your point but sometimes things are black and white. Russia has amassed a 100,000+ army on the border of a sovereign country and is demanding concessions. That is as black and white an aggression against world order I can think of. And you can certainly point out similar aggressions around the world to point out hypocrisy but that is not the point being discussed. The very stability of Europe is being shaken. Hitler wanted, I forget the country (Austria?), annexed to incorporate German speaking people. Sound familiar? Then another country, then another, then WWII. History does seem to repeat itself and very similar circumstances started world wars.
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Austria?
    The Rhineland, then Austria, then the Sudetenland, then the rest of Czechoslovakia, then Danzig (which we finally refused so he took the whole of Poland). Czechoslovakia is probably the most interesting one because this is the one that wasn't about repatriating Germans - it was the first time the aggression was truly naked.

    I actually think Putin's ambitions probably consist Ukraine, the Baltic states and possibly Poland. I'm basing that on the fact that these places have historically been part of the Russian empire (as opposed to the USSR) which seems to be what he harkens back to from his rhetoric. If he's hearkening back to the USSR you can extend that to include the Balkans as well. Most of that is clearly unachievable but would be his goal if given a completely clear hand. Obviously, we would step in before Poland but would we step in for the likes of Latvia and Lithuania if we're not willing to step in for Ukraine? I'm not so sure.

    I'm no hawk and I don't like the thought of putting our servicemen in danger but I do think it would be worth putting boots on the ground in Ukraine. Appeasement is not going to work on Putin.
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    Hitler wanted, I forget the country (Austria?), annexed to incorporate German speaking people. Sound familiar? Then another country, then another, then WWII. History does seem to repeat itself and very similar circumstances started world wars.
    Not exactly, Hitler wanted Austria because at the end of WWI, Austria asked to be part of Germany and it was refused by the winners because of the fear of a country to large and too dangerous. So he annexed it knowing that no-one in Austria would complain so why the world would complain. Then he invaded Czechoslovakia because at that time it was one of the most industrial country in the world and he need it for the war effort.
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Did you guys hear about how Putin was going to make a video showing Ukraine starting the attack? And that Russia had no choice but to fire back.... Biden told Putin that no one is stupid enough to believe that.
    Wi-fi went down for five minutes, so I had to talk to my family....They seem like nice people.

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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve R Jones View Post
    Did you guys hear about how Putin was going to make a video showing Ukraine starting the attack? And that Russia had no choice but to fire back.... Biden told Putin that no one is stupid enough to believe that.
    I believe I've seen a title to an article that hinted towards that.

    This will probably be the story that makes Ukrainian parents book vacations to Germany for their teens.

    They're allowed to come here.

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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    There is no reason for US involvement in Ukraine. Nor is there a reason for UK involvement either, though I'm American so it's easier for me to speak in US terms.

    In 2008, Georgia attacked Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia and Russia retaliated by shelling the crap out of out Georgia. So McCain on the debate stage says that Russia is out biggest geopolitical threat and Obama famously said that "the 80s want their foreign policy back". But there had been a steady "warming of the pot" since then.

    Then in 2014, the democratically elected Ukrainian government was overthrown with the support of the US government (not to say that the US government overthrew the Ukrainian, but just that the US government supported the movement). Shortly after that, Crimea votes to succeed from the Ukraine and join Russia, but Vladimir Putin rejects their request (although Sergei Naryshkin pushed hard for the annexation). Then as a result, the Obama administration along with the Israeli government sent arms to the Azov Battalion who were undeniably engaged in combat with the ethnic Russian population of eastern Ukraine; this carried on into the Trump administration.

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    I see your point but sometimes things are black and white. Russia has amassed a 100,000+ army on the border of a sovereign country and is demanding concessions. That is as black and white an aggression against world order I can think of.
    Is it black and white? Historically speaking we did not build up bases/personnel further east than Western Germany. Then when the soviet curtain fell in the 90s the US has steadily pushed east. The status quo since 1991 was that Ukraine could keep the Crimean peninsula and Russia could keep its naval base there. But after the 2014 coup there was a hard push to get rid of the Russian naval base in Crimea by Ukraine's new government with the support of the US government.

    Could you see why Russia would not want US/Israeli backed and armed right-wing militants on their doorstep while simultaneously the Ukrainian government (and the west at large) no longer want Russia to keep its naval base off the coast of the Black Sea?
    Last edited by dday9; Feb 4th, 2022 at 11:19 AM.
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    The Rhineland, then Austria, then the Sudetenland, then the rest of Czechoslovakia, then Danzig (which we finally refused so he took the whole of Poland). Czechoslovakia is probably the most interesting one because this is the one that wasn't about repatriating Germans - it was the first time the aggression was truly naked.

    I actually think Putin's ambitions probably consist Ukraine, the Baltic states and possibly Poland. I'm basing that on the fact that these places have historically been part of the Russian empire (as opposed to the USSR) which seems to be what he harkens back to from his rhetoric. If he's hearkening back to the USSR you can extend that to include the Balkans as well. Most of that is clearly unachievable but would be his goal if given a completely clear hand. Obviously, we would step in before Poland but would we step in for the likes of Latvia and Lithuania if we're not willing to step in for Ukraine? I'm not so sure.

    I'm no hawk and I don't like the thought of putting our servicemen in danger but I do think it would be worth putting boots on the ground in Ukraine. Appeasement is not going to work on Putin.
    It is a good point Putin comes from the U.S.S.R era. It has been speculated for a long while he would like that influence restored. But I heard an interesting point recently that he understands going west, to get the old U.S.S.R reconstituted, isn't going to happen. And that is the reason for all the diplomacy and cooperation with China. He has his eye on the middle east. and expanding outside of Europe.


    The point about Russia being treated badly after WWI probably has merit. Russia was instrumental in winning that war. It was probably more of a "my enemy is your enemy" arrangement between east and west until the war was over.


    Just ask Patton...he wanted to push Russia back to the pre-war boundaries. Maybe he was right...If he was alive he would be right in saying "I told you so".

    As I was looking up some dates I found a reference to "Operation Unthinkable".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Unthinkable

    A British plan, it never got anywhere, to invade Russia. Learn something new every day

    As a side point my father was a marine in the Philippines part of WWII. His brother-in-law convinced him to join the Air Force reserves. Just two weeks a year for extra pay Next thing yo know he is involved in Korea. I don't remember any of that. I do remember the Marine and Air Force uniforms in the closet. He is buried at an Arlington branch cemetery. He choice the Marines for the guard and presenting of the flag.

    I joined the Navy
    Last edited by TysonLPrice; Feb 4th, 2022 at 11:48 AM.
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by dday9 View Post
    There is no reason for US involvement in Ukraine. Nor is there a reason for UK involvement either, though I'm American so it's easier for me to speak in US terms.

    In 2008, Georgia attacked Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia and Russia retaliated by shelling the crap out of out Georgia. So McCain on the debate stage says that Russia is out biggest geopolitical threat and Obama famously said that "the 80s want their foreign policy back". But there had been a steady "warming of the pot" since then.

    Then in 2014, the democratically elected Ukrainian government was overthrown with the support of the US government (not to say that the US government overthrew the Ukrainian, but just that the US government supported the movement). Shortly after that, Crimea votes to succeed from the Ukraine and join Russia, but Vladimir Putin rejects their request (although Sergei Naryshkin pushed hard for the annexation). Then as a result, the Obama administration along with the Israeli government sent arms to the Azov Battalion who were undeniably engaged in combat with the ethnic Russian population of eastern Ukraine; this carried on into the Trump administration.


    Is it black and white? Historically speaking we did not build up bases/personnel further east than Western Germany. Then when the soviet curtain fell in the 90s the US has steadily pushed east. The status quo since 1991 was that Ukraine could keep the Crimean peninsula and Russia could keep its naval base there. But after the 2014 coup there was a hard push to get rid of the Russian naval base in Crimea by Ukraine's new government with the support of the US government.

    Could you see why Russia would not want US/Israeli backed and armed right-wing militants on their doorstep while simultaneously the Ukrainian government (and the west at large) no longer want Russia to keep its naval base off the coast of the Black Sea?
    That is a reasonable point but the text "the US has steadily pushed east" I disagree with. It was NATO/the western democracies and I'm thinking, I may well be wrong, it was Russia that kept all the territory in countries they pushed Germany out of. Did any other country do that? The U.S. didn't keep France. They used liberating Europe as an excuse to conquer it. Then they split Berlin down the middle. They are not exactly innocent and I think it is a little blacker than grey.
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    ... I disagree with. It was NATO/the western democracies...
    Eh, tomayto/tomahto. But you're right, it was NATO, I'd contend that it is the typically the US driving NATO policies (even those primarily European).
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve R Jones View Post
    Did you guys hear about how Putin was going to make a video showing Ukraine starting the attack? And that Russia had no choice but to fire back.... Biden told Putin that no one is stupid enough to believe that.
    Welp, Biden's been wrong before, so what's one more error?
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by dday9 View Post
    Eh, tomayto/tomahto. But you're right, it was NATO, I'd contend that it is the typically the US driving NATO policies (even those primarily European).
    I wouldn't disagree with that...we were the only one left standing

    Edit:
    I changed Would to Wouldn't. That was a typo. I agree with what you contend.
    Last edited by TysonLPrice; Feb 4th, 2022 at 12:13 PM.
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    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    There was a point, I think back in the 90s, when people in the US were even floating the idea that Russia might join NATO.

    Putin wants to be relevant. Russia is economically weak and has no real path out of that, at the moment. They have some resources, LOADS of land, but not all that much going for them. China has the population, the industry, and the economy such that it can't be overlooked, let alone ignored. Russia has nothing but a bunch of nukes. They don't have the cheap labor to pull up their industrial base the way China did. They have some smart industries, but they feel a bit 'mature', to me, by which I mean that they don't seem nimble or accommodating, two factors that China leveraged to great success. Some other developing economies, such as Vietnam and Bangladesh, seem capable of using the China approach, but Russia just doesn't. When you think of innovation, Russia just doesn't spring to mind.

    So, for Putin to be relevant, he has to rattle the saber a bit. I think DDay made some good points. We certainly didn't like it when Russia moved some missiles into Cuba.
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Welp, Biden's been wrong before, so what's one more error?
    Welp occurs when someone abruptly closes off the word well—an occurrence known as a bilabial stop, as linguist Ben Zimmer explained to me—and is akin to the similar slang words yep and nope.* That abrupt closure seems to enhance the sense of resignation in the word well when used as an interjection. Welp is a word to use, as one Urban Dictionary definition puts it, “When one feels there is no more to say.”
    I was looking "welp" up to try and make a pun. I actually though it was used to describe some kind of small animal or child other than how you used it. But I posted the meaning since it was right there. It is part of my "keen sense of the obvious".
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Russia is economically weak and has no real path out of that, at the moment. They have some resources, LOADS of land, but not all that much going for them.
    That's a good point. Russia's GDP is 1,483,497 (in millions) which is about as much as Florida 1,111,614 (in millions). Imagine the amount of people there are in Russia compared to Florida, the average GDP per person must be much lower in Russia.
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    At the risk of finding and posting links that just prove your point, I'm not doing that just brushing up on this topic, I found this in the link below:

    https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blog...ine-obsession/

    Entitled “On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians,” Putin’s remarkable treatise showcases his contempt for Ukrainian statehood and his belief in the artificial nature of the country’s current separation from Russia, which he blames on insidious outside influences. Putin the amateur historian states unequivocally that Ukrainians and Russians are “one people” and concludes by declaring “I am confident that true sovereignty of Ukraine is possible only in partnership with Russia.”
    I know everyone wants you to look at a link but I think you will find this interesting because it uses Putin's own writings as background.
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    There was a point, I think back in the 90s, when people in the US were even floating the idea that Russia might join NATO.

    Putin wants to be relevant. Russia is economically weak and has no real path out of that, at the moment. They have some resources, LOADS of land, but not all that much going for them. China has the population, the industry, and the economy such that it can't be overlooked, let alone ignored. Russia has nothing but a bunch of nukes. They don't have the cheap labor to pull up their industrial base the way China did. They have some smart industries, but they feel a bit 'mature', to me, by which I mean that they don't seem nimble or accommodating, two factors that China leveraged to great success. Some other developing economies, such as Vietnam and Bangladesh, seem capable of using the China approach, but Russia just doesn't. When you think of innovation, Russia just doesn't spring to mind.

    So, for Putin to be relevant, he has to rattle the saber a bit. I think DDay made some good points. We certainly didn't like it when Russia moved some missiles into Cuba.
    The nuclear war
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    I was looking "welp" up to try and make a pun. I actually though it was used to describe some kind of small animal or child other than how you used it. But I posted the meaning since it was right there. It is part of my "keen sense of the obvious".
    Woooof! That there definition you quoted is a fine example of belaboring the point. While I think it is technically correct, since the word does have a certain emotion to it, I think it's also a regional term and that definition is a bit much. After all, it's also a drawled way of saying 'well', kind of akin to y'all. When used as a drawl, it doesn't have that 'keen sense of the obvious' aspect to it, because that would be far too erudite for a drawl.
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Russia has nothing but a bunch of nukes.
    That is a whole lot of nothing though...I think with his control he could unleash them. I don't know that. Our generals might have stopped the previous administration from doing that, who knows. Russian generals???

    The loser of a war with a scorched earth mentality can put us all in the stone age. Nobody will win that war. I think as humans we are dumb enough to do it.
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by dday9 View Post
    That's a good point. Russia's GDP is 1,483,497 (in millions) which is about as much as Florida 1,111,614 (in millions). Imagine the amount of people there are in Russia compared to Florida, the average GDP per person must be much lower in Russia.
    I have the feeling that the average age might be comparable.

    I was curious about that. Russia is not a very populous country, despite having so MUCH land. They have a reported population of only around 110 million, so only about five times the population of Florida.

    There was an interesting article in the Economist a few months back that showed that the economic output is higher in the areas where Stalin era gulags were located. Stalin shipped the educated and intellectuals off to those remote backwaters, and lots of them remained. Some even remained on this side of the ground surface, and those that did ended up being quite productive. This appears to have raised the productivity in the areas where the gulags were located.

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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    That is a whole lot of nothing though...I think with his control he could unleash them. I don't know that. Our generals might have stopped the previous administration from doing that, who knows. Russian generals???

    The loser of a war with a scorched earth mentality can put us all in the stone age. Nobody will win that war. I think as humans we are dumb enough to do it.
    I would put the odds of Putin using nukes at 0.0%. I fully believe his generals would not use them, and I don't think that is even close to his character. He doesn't want to break things, and I really don't see him as thinking he's some kind of messianic figure.
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    I don't want to really get into it but some words.
    1)Ukraine is governed by neo Nazis, kudos for supporting them.
    2)NATO due to sleepy and the puppets is bringing troops and weapons to "defend" Ukraine that is the "victim".
    3)US would think twice and thrice to do what it does if it has close borders with Russia but a proxy war is not costing much.
    4)We gave the port of Alexandoupolis to US for supply , tanks, troops and copters, we, meaning our sold out politicians. We,meaning a patriotic government, should immediately sweep everyone out as we are endanger our relationships with our Russian friends.
    5)We need to leave NATO, like, yesterday.
    6)NATO is squeezing Putin, so what do you expect as a response? Roses?
    7)As I have no desire to be done on what covid thread done to the chit-chat, that's my 1$ 32 cents and I'm outta here...
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Ultimately the problem here is Europe, which has too many insecurities as it currently exists to survive the process of deglobalization already under way. One of these policed access to global markets for free, while another is energy:



    I can see US energy corporations pushing against Russia, but why the UK? After all, the North Sea is already projected to become a problem before too many more years and the UK is stumbling trying to supply its own needs already.

  26. #26
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Why NOT the UK? For one thing...whither Boris? For another, they are pushing ahead with energy changes, and for a third there is an advantage to the UK having friends now that they've Brexited. This is an easy one for Boris.
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  27. #27

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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    I would put the odds of Putin using nukes at 0.0%. I fully believe his generals would not use them, and I don't think that is even close to his character. He doesn't want to break things, and I really don't see him as thinking he's some kind of messianic figure.
    I get your point and don't totally disagree but I don't agree with your 0.0% certainty. A couple years ago Putin endorsed Russia’s nuclear deterrent policy, which allows him to use atomic weapons in response to a conventional strike targeting the nation’s critical government and military infrastructure.

    https://www.defensenews.com/global/e...uclear-strike/

    Now I suppose that is the same thing as saying "nothing is off the table" but Russia might be willing to destroy a city or two. Especially if it is not a NATO ally. But, this is one disagreement I don't want to win.
    Last edited by TysonLPrice; Feb 5th, 2022 at 08:50 AM.
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  28. #28
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    I don't believe any big power will be the next to use a nuke in anger. I had a thread about that several years back, asking people who they thought would be the next to use one, but my view is now:

    1) A non-state actor.
    2) Pakistan
    3) India

    in that order.
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  29. #29
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    I don't believe any big power will be the next to use a nuke in anger. I had a thread about that several years back, asking people who they thought would be the next to use one, but my view is now:

    1) A non-state actor.
    2) Pakistan
    3) India

    in that order.
    I'd agree that a non-state actor makes sense.

    I'm amazed we've managed to keep the cat in the bag for 75yrs. I doubt we can make it another 75. But, then again, I didn't think we would make it the first 75.

  30. #30
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    I think this posturing over Ukraine is just a cover for the larger forces under way. This is from a time before the last US election, but I don't think anything has really changed:



    As he points out, even Biden remembers that when Obama asked Europe to take two baby steps toward responsibility for themselves they declined and asked for even more welfare on the backs of US workers.

    I can't wait for the day when the last base is shuttered after clawing back all of the personnel, hardware, and installations the US has in Europe and the UK. Imagine the boom at home when all of that military surplus comes onto the market here. The temporary buildings, medical and construction/maintenance equipment, and many vehicles could be worth it alone.

  31. #31
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Yeah, like that huge peace dividend at the end of the cold war....oh wait, that never materialized.
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  32. #32
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Yeah, like that huge peace dividend at the end of the cold war....oh wait, that never materialized.
    I'm not so sure, aside from it never reaching the little people tangibly. We did see the spending deficit paid off though. Of course then we had a new round of middle east "actions" and we're in the hole again.

  33. #33
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    The problem with that is that the mid-90s had several different factors happening at the same time, such as the early internet age, the dotcom bubble, and so on. Various people have claimed that their cause was the reason for the good economic situation then, but the truth is probably that it was a confluence of factors, including the peace dividend, the rise of the networks, and even Clinton/Dole, who managed to work together pretty well.
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  34. #34
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    The temporary buildings, medical and construction/maintenance equipment, and many vehicles could be worth it alone.
    Unlikely. I used to work for DSG repatriating military equipment from cooling war zones. It's a massively expensive exercise, the equipment is built for one thing so you can't recoup the cost and you'll end up paying to store it against a possible future conflict. You'll experience a massive net loss.

    Truth is you'll almost certainly just abandon the lot where it sits.
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    I was thinking of stuff that mostly sits in crates or parked where it was originally unloaded awaiting future use. But perhaps you have a valid point. It would be worth it just to stop the ongoing expenditures.

  36. #36
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Just came across this while browsing, so i though I should put it on the table:
    https://rumble.com/vuawub-50897603.html
    ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ
    πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν·

  37. #37

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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    That's all Greek to me
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  38. #38
    Super Moderator dday9's Avatar
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    That's all Greek to me
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  39. #39
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    I'm not entirely sure that phrase translates so well. I'd guess that Sapator both agrees with what you said, and might not understand what you said. I would assume that Greeks have a different phrase for the same thing.
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  40. #40
    King of sapila
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    I understand.
    We say that's Chinese to me, we can't of course say Greek.
    ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ
    πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν·

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