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Thread: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

  1. #1161
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    They were caught in the winter because it was Russia. Heck, the French got further, and they were on foot.
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  2. #1162
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Most likely their cars broke down on the way and they couldn't afford the pricey mechanics. I'm sure Scotty Kilmer can explain German cars to you.

  3. #1163
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    I'll back Sappy on this one. The delays caused by Greece were certainly a factor. So was the diversion of resources to the African Campaign. Also the delays engendered by the failed Operation Sealion (I'd argue that this was probably the most significant but of course I would - there's nothing that can't be achieved with a strong cup of tea). In fact, while we tend to view the German advances in 39/40 as meteoric, a lot of them had little strategic benefit for the Germans - particularly the ones that were made to prop up the Italian dream of a new Mediterranean Empire. In a nutshell, Hitler tried to achieve everything at once and came up just a little short. Had he been more focussed in 39/40 it's likely he'd have taken Moscow, Stalingrad and Leningrad.
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  4. #1164
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Most likely their cars broke down on the way and they couldn't afford the pricey mechanics. I'm sure Scotty Kilmer can explain German cars to you.
    There's a fair amount of truth to that. German tanks were notoriously finnicky, and they were designed in such a way that there wasn't all that much field maintenance that was possible.
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  5. #1165
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    I'll back Sappy on this one. The delays caused by Greece were certainly a factor. So was the diversion of resources to the African Campaign. Also the delays engendered by the failed Operation Sealion (I'd argue that this was probably the most significant but of course I would - there's nothing that can't be achieved with a strong cup of tea). In fact, while we tend to view the German advances in 39/40 as meteoric, a lot of them had little strategic benefit for the Germans - particularly the ones that were made to prop up the Italian dream of a new Mediterranean Empire. In a nutshell, Hitler tried to achieve everything at once and came up just a little short. Had he been more focussed in 39/40 it's likely he'd have taken Moscow, Stalingrad and Leningrad.
    I just realized that Mussolini was smarter than I had realized. He tried to conquer the med, Germany tried to conquer Russia. One has a much more pleasant climate than the other.
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  6. #1166
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Ye Muss tired to conquered by going face to face in the end of spring on the Greek mountains with Greek hardcore, was very smart indeed...That is until Italians actually started to fight.
    Of course first they send a telegram asking us to surrender. How kind, very novel.
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  7. #1167
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Yeah, Hitler was the biggest problem for the Germans. He made terrible military decisions. The German commanders in Russia wanted to drive south and capture the oil fields but Hitler insisted they split the forces and try to capture Stalingrad at the same time. This caused delays and allowed the Russian military industries to get organized and start cranking out massive amounts of the tools of war. Especially tanks. Also the farther the Germans went into Russia the longer and harder it became to supply their war machine. One of Russia's great strengths is it's size. The Germans had essentially lost the war after the winter of '42. Don't believe the ever won a large battle after that.

    There were lots of bad decisions by Hitler. In my opinion his biggest was attacking Russia in the first place at that point in time. Russia had their eastern border protected, Russia wasn't a threat. If all of Germany's military was focused on the west, Operation Sealion would of had a good chance of working and even if it didn't it would have made the allied invasion of Europe much more difficult. Germany could of held onto most of Europe for quite a while if England had fallen.

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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    I had the idea that Hitler also had a lot of problematic high ranking staff and advisors as well.

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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Yeah, he did, but he also had some of the best in the world. In the early years they literally changed the face of warfare and we were still following the doctrines of Blitzkrieg into the Iraq war. From what I've heard the huge Ukrainian counter offensive in the North was a result of Thunder Runs which is a US derivative (basically a light vehicle blitzkrieg attack).

    I think what we're really talking about is when you prioritise political ideology over military ability when selecting your officer corps.

    I've been into military history since I was a teen and have taken part in countless discussions around why things panned out the way they did in WW2 (also in Napoleonics, which is my favourite period). I think the truth is that war is a chaos system and pointing to any one factor or even list of factors never really gets to the nub of things. Lots of butterflies flap their wings and... stuff happens.
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Well, there are some early reports that the Ukrainians have already crossed the Dnipro in the South. I did not see that coming.
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  11. #1171
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    I've been into military history since I was a teen and have taken part in countless discussions around why things panned out the way they did in WW2 (also in Napoleonics, which is my favourite period). I think the truth is that war is a chaos system and pointing to any one factor or even list of factors never really gets to the nub of things. Lots of butterflies flap their wings and... stuff happens.
    Maybe you can't prove one factor was the turning in WWII but I still like talking about it. War interest me. It so full of the best and worst in people. Can you imagine what that horrific slog back from Moscow was like for Napoleon's army. The amount of death and agony that some leaders are willing to accept for some perceived benefit doesn't make sense to me. But I find the stories captivating.

    And I call myself a passivist. lol

  12. #1172
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    I prefer talking about old wars but is this for real?

    I know , something something about Fox but if it stand then kudos, up there with the Greek government.
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  13. #1173
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Yeah, that's a story you won't hear the details of in the neoliberal media.

    People aren't just stuffing their heads in the sand about a lot of the authoritarian warmonger actions:


  14. #1174
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    judicial watch, defense department records reveal U.S. funding of Anthrax laboratory activities in Ukraine.

    It's a meh from me, I know what US is capable of but since there are no documents in the air....

    ....
    ....
    Actually I was joking about the no documents parts. Here are the documents:
    https://www.judicialwatch.org/wp-con...ember-2022.pdf
    Page 269 after a quick find is quite interesting. What is Anthrax? US supported the band to play in Ukraine?hmm? But I'm sure I'm expecting a so what bomb any time soon. Of course I won't read 300 pages and it's a meh as I've said but since some denied and said that Russia had the labs. Put on a happy face now.
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  15. #1175

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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by sapator View Post
    judicial watch, defense department records reveal U.S. funding of Anthrax laboratory activities in Ukraine.

    It's a meh from me, I know what US is capable of but since there are no documents in the air....

    ....
    ....
    Actually I was joking about the no documents parts. Here are the documents:
    https://www.judicialwatch.org/wp-con...ember-2022.pdf
    Page 269 after a quick find is quite interesting. What is Anthrax? US supported the band to play in Ukraine?hmm? But I'm sure I'm expecting a so what bomb any time soon. Of course I won't read 300 pages and it's a meh as I've said but since some denied and said that Russia had the labs. Put on a happy face now.
    This kind of internet crap never dies...people just keep mindlessly posting it ad nauseum:

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/03/10...isinformation/
    Last edited by TysonLPrice; Nov 27th, 2022 at 03:28 AM.
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  16. #1176
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    An article vs 300+ pages official US documents claim and agreement with Ukraine. Are the documents fake? Would be nice to know.
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  17. #1177
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    What is PACS?
    A
    The Pathogen Asset Control System (PACS) is an electronic system for accounting, management and control of biological agents. The application is designed to monitor the reception, transfer, movement and destruction of agents, as well as other actions performed with biological materials.

    Are the documents fake?
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  18. #1178
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    So many "conspiracy theories" described actual conspiracies, and the facts were available at the time even though we were lied to and gagged.


  19. #1179
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by sapator View Post
    What is PACS?
    A
    The Pathogen Asset Control System (PACS) is an electronic system for accounting, management and control of biological agents. The application is designed to monitor the reception, transfer, movement and destruction of agents, as well as other actions performed with biological materials.

    Are the documents fake?
    How about meaningless? Would you settle for that? I certainly didn't read all 300 pages. I did go to the page you mentioned, and perused several more. Frankly, I don't think that's a gun, smoking or otherwise. I failed to see anything in there that is meaningful.

    Can you point to something relevant anywhere in that whole document?

    I still think that's about the stupidest conspiracy theory that I've heard about. Even the flat earthers make more sense, since they are basing an erroneous belief on a bit of personal experience and a lack of study. The 'US labs in Ukraine' is based on not thinking clearly right from the start.
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  20. #1180
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Same all same all. You can certainly live in your microcosmos, don't blame me and don't ask me to interpret it for you. So I guess the document is legit? So US involvement in Ukraine did take place, anything else is just so what sauce as usual. And what conspiracy theory? I didn't mention any conspiracy theory. The document is either legit and there was involvement or it is not and there is no involvement. That was a dead giveaway of the sowhatisism theory...

    Edit: After reading my answer I find it a bid harsh. It's not a personal attach to you (you know I like you) but more on the what's your point whole defense mechanism. So don't take it as a personal attack.

    Anyway I'm out, for good....
    ....
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  21. #1181
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    PACS was first installed in Ukraine in test mode in November 2009 at the Interim
    Central Reference Laboratory of the Especially Dangerous Pathogens (ICRL),
    located at the Ukrainian Research Anti-Plague Institute in Odessa (URAPI).

    Yep, the US embassy in Ukraine.
    https://ua.usembassy.gov/wp-content/...m-Eng-ver3.pdf

    So there was involvement in Ukraine labs,that continued according to the documents and until X time (very recent if you believe those Russia lairs), involving study of, read the document. Case closed. Where is the conspiracy theory?

    Now, I believe there is a football game...........Voussssssssssssssssssssssssssssss................
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  22. #1182
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Does it matter if it's legit when it doesn't say anything? I would say that it doesn't seem unreasonable, except that there isn't anything that looks like it could be either reasonable or unreasonable. Were you seeing something that I wasn't? All I see is some pretty tame language that could be nearly anything. Can you point to a page that explains anything about what the document is about? I didn't see one, so there isn't anything to discuss.

    The point remains: There is only one place stupider to put a bioweapons lab than in a country that has close ties with your (last, not current) greatest enemy/rival, generally speaks the same language, and is one that is notorious for its corruption. The one place stupider is in the country that is your greatest enemy/rival, so putting a biolab in Ukraine isn't the stupidest, it's only second. And yet, that's what the theory seems to be. Some people might think of it as some kind of reverse psychology, but reverse psychology doesn't work that way. It isn't stupid because people would expect it, it's stupid because you'd be handing your secrets to your enemy.

    A meaningless document doesn't change that, whether it's a real meaningless document or a fake meaningless document.
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  23. #1183
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Ah, I see where you came from. You seem to imply that I said that US had it's own bio lab.No the point was that US was in collaboration with Ukraine labs. So does the document say, so does the US embassy in Ukraine says.
    Other that that, sorry I can't do much more to convince you nor do I care to do so.
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  24. #1184
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    We must be due for another fallacious ad hominem attack on someone speaking truth against a tenet of the religion of neoliberalism by now. Nobody has gone looking for Jeffrey Sachs' nudie magazine drawer yet here.


  25. #1185

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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by sapator View Post
    Ah, I see where you came from. You seem to imply that I said that US had it's own bio lab.No the point was that US was in collaboration with Ukraine labs. So does the document say, so does the US embassy in Ukraine says.
    Other that that, sorry I can't do much more to convince you nor do I care to do so.
    The whole point is this BS story keeps getting air time from morons that keep propagating it.

    How the false Russian biolab story came to circulate among the U.S. far right
    https://www.npr.org/2022/03/25/10879...russia-ukraine

    Not that it is in dispute...
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  26. #1186
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by sapator View Post
    Ah, I see where you came from. You seem to imply that I said that US had it's own bio lab.No the point was that US was in collaboration with Ukraine labs. So does the document say, so does the US embassy in Ukraine says.
    Other that that, sorry I can't do much more to convince you nor do I care to do so.
    Ah, in collaboration with. Yeah, I could see that. It appears that we collaborate with bio labs all around the world, and on all kinds of things. I was just talking to a guy last week who was telling me about some joint sampling with the Russians prior to the invasion of Ukraine. The US wouldn't join in, but a Canadian did...and then the invasion happened and the ship was headed for Russia, with the Canadian still aboard. I guess it was a bit of a challenge recovering him. The joys of conducting joint research between rivals in times of geopolitical tension...and that was only about fish.

    I believe there was similar collaboration between that Wuhan bio lab and the US. Whether any of that counts as bio weapons, I couldn't say, but it wouldn't surprise me all that much, either. After all, a big plank of the US-USSR nuclear deterrence strategy involved mutual inspections of each others facilities. The idea was that complete openness about one another's capabilities would reduce misunderstandings. In some areas, that's certainly true.

    When it comes to infectious diseases, it's also good to work together, though for a somewhat different reason. Collaboration doesn't just build understanding, it facilitates information flow which can be critical when something new shows up. I would be quite surprised if the US wasn't involved in bio lab collaborations all across Africa, many parts of South America, and certainly across Asia. I don't see anything sinister in any of it though. Just seems prudent, to me.
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  27. #1187

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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    This thread quieted down but I watch the war everyday. Countries are providing more heavier and sophisticated weapons. I guess it will really ramp up in the spring and we'll see what Russia has in mind. I think a new and more thought out offensive.

    We need to see what the republicans are going to do. That are already signaling a lack of future support of a "blank check". They may want to tie support to getting "dirt" on Joe Biden again
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    This thread quieted down but I watch the war everyday.
    Probably because the conflict has quieted down (or at least gone static. There's still plenty of ordnance flying around)

    we'll see what Russia has in mind
    I think, not much. Most generals I'm seeing are saying they've basically got no offensive capacity left. It's taken them months to take Soledar and this isn't even their objective, it's meant to me a stepping stone on the way to Bakmut. I think the next offensive we see will be by the Ukranians in a Southward push to cut off the Crimea. Or they may use this as a distraction in the same way they did in September and use it as an opportunity to hit Luhansk and Donetsk from the North.



    Kind of an aside and I haven't mentioned this before but I've been housing a Ukrainian refugee since beginning of November. She's been really lovely, make me and my lodgers a borsht when she first moved in and recently managed to find some work in a coffee shop. We're trying to find a way to get her cat over from Kherson but it's proving difficult. I mention this because it's been a very rewarding experience and I'd recommend anyone who's got some space to do the same. There's still a great demand for homes.
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  29. #1189
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    I think we can drop the Ukrainian soldiers act. There a thousands and thousands of NATO mercenaries fighting over 50 countries against Russia with weapon provided from NATO countries (including our own due to our idiot PM).
    Of course if anyone feels better to believe that Ukraine solders are winning - loosing etc then no problem. I often believe I'm a rainbow unicorn flying high to the sky and dropping from a rainbow so I can understand.
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  30. #1190
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Even if that were true, it would be pretty meaningless. There have been foreign fighters in pretty nearly any major war, so that's nothing new. Though, it does make me wonder how far back it goes? The more I think about it, the more I think it has always happened. It's just the motivations that have changed depending on the war. Still, even if there were thousands, it would be thousands out of how many? Looks like the Ukraine army is roughly 250K, so a percent or two for a war that is clearly motivational for lots of people? Sure. It would be surprising if there weren't.

    Ukraine is certainly getting a lot of military support from the west, and that shouldn't surprise anybody. However, Russia has a far larger population. Unless the people turn on the Russian government, they can do human wave attacks for a very long time.
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  31. #1191
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Lot's of Ukrainians in Salonika this year. Lot's of people on the beach.
    As I've said. The unicorn effect. The only problem with unicorns is that they fart cotton candy so they are not creating methane for fuel.
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  32. #1192
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Cotton Candy? I thought they farted rainbows. You need to conduct a study on unicorn emissions and report back here.
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  33. #1193
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    You are correct. They are 2 kinds.
    Cortikon: Fart cotton candy
    Raibnfropper: fart rainbows

    Cortikon can use the emissions to fly while Raibnfropper can ride it's own rainbows.
    And there is the wing not wing think, I haven't grasped that yet. Complicated stuff.
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  34. #1194
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by sapator View Post
    You are correct. They are 2 kinds.
    Cortikon: Fart cotton candy
    Raibnfropper: fart rainbows

    Cortikon can use the emissions to fly while Raibnfropper can ride it's own rainbows.
    And there is the wing not wing think, I haven't grasped that yet. Complicated stuff.
    Stay with it. You're pioneering a new field.
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  35. #1195
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Ye I'm about to release Cortikon play card but I need a sponsor.
    I see you are interested...If you care to chip in a couple of thousand $ ??!!

    (In which I would have replied, how about a couple of thousand of Cortifarts? But you are to polite to do so, so I did it for you)
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  36. #1196
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    My money will be as real as a unicorn.
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  37. #1197
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Well rainbows and cotton candy are real so we are half way there!
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  38. #1198
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Does the existence of rainbows and cotton candy (and especially rainbow cotton candy) indicate that unicorns exist the way that deer droppings indicate the presence of deer?
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  39. #1199
    King of sapila
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    6,321

    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Nor do they indicate that they do not exist.
    ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ
    πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν·

  40. #1200
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Modesto, Ca.
    Posts
    5,040

    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    I sure don't understand politics or diplomacy. It's been clear from the start that NATO is supporting Ukraine. It's been clear that NATO is suppling weapons to Ukraine. Why is there so much worry about suppling tanks. I realize there would need to be training involved. To me that just means the sooner they start the better.

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