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Thread: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

  1. #721
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    In response to the rumors and smears of Western conspiracy theorists, the Chinese conspiracy theorists' defense is: There is a store in Wuhan's wet market that imports refrigerated seafood from the United States, and it was this store that caused the Covid-19 virus to spread from the United States to China through the cold chain (refrigerated seafood).

    Stupid people are in the majority in every country, in China the absolute number of stupid people is higher, in the West the ratio of stupid people is higher (thanks to the west media).

    But one thing is certain, when scientists speculate on the origin of Covid-19, they ignore that the virus can be transmitted through the cold chain (refrigerated seafood), and that the virus can be transmitted through animals other than bats, such as mink. Even more incredible is that the virus can also be spread by express mail.

  2. #722

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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by SearchingDataOnly View Post
    In response to the rumors and smears of Western conspiracy theorists, the Chinese conspiracy theorists' defense is: There is a store in Wuhan's wet market that imports refrigerated seafood from the United States, and it was this store that caused the Covid-19 virus to spread from the United States to China through the cold chain (refrigerated seafood).

    Stupid people are in the majority in every country, in China the absolute number of stupid people is higher, in the West the ratio of stupid people is higher (thanks to the west media).

    But one thing is certain, when scientists speculate on the origin of Covid-19, they ignore that the virus can be transmitted through the cold chain (refrigerated seafood), and that the virus can be transmitted through animals other than bats, such as mink. Even more incredible is that the virus can also be spread by express mail.
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  3. #723
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    You left out door knobs
    Yes, maybe left out more. But when the virus is politicized, it doesn't make sense to explore the origin of the virus, because each country might hide some information that is not good for itself to prevent itself from being the next target of political attack. Political viruses are scarier than biological viruses.
    Last edited by SearchingDataOnly; Jun 12th, 2022 at 05:49 AM.

  4. #724
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    I agree with that.
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    I can't remember anybody suggesting there was an intentional release in Wuhan
    They definitely did. I really don't fancy resurrecting the thread but if you trawl the closed Covid thread you'll find a few of our own members doing it. I do think that most of it was by implication rather than explicit though.

    Seems to be more likely some stupid/crooked workers told to destroy lab animals had decided to make a little cash by pipelining them into those wet markets.
    That's the first time I've come across that theory. On it's face it feels unlikely to me but... maybe. I certainly can't rule it out.

    I'm quite surprised you didn't post Dr John's latest vid. It's got some interesting info that strongly implies that natural mutation from bats is unlikely to be the route and there must have been some intermediary step... probably man made.

    At this point I'd say that there is a higher fifty percent chance that some sort of human research was involved and, given the geography and the research that was being undertaken, the Wuhan lab seems the most likely. I think there's a zero percent chance that the release was deliberate, though.

    But when the virus is politicized, it doesn't make sense to explore the origin of the virus,
    I broadly agree with you point but I'd turn it on it's head. It still makes sense to do the investigation but it doesn't make sense to politicise it. It just means the investigation is doomed to failure and we will learn zero lessons.
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  6. #726
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    I can't remember anybody suggesting there was an intentional release in Wuhan
    They definitely did. I really don't fancy resurrecting the thread but if you trawl the closed Covid thread you'll find a few of our own members doing it. I do think that most of it was by implication rather than explicit though.

    Seems to be more likely some stupid/crooked workers told to destroy lab animals had decided to make a little cash by pipelining them into those wet markets.
    That's the first time I've come across that theory. On it's face it feels unlikely to me but... maybe. I certainly can't rule it out.
    I find that more plausible than the intentional release ...

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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    There was a quote that I heard just yesterday about dining in a Soviet restaurant: You can't be sure if the burger you are eating is made from beef, horse, or your neighbors cat.

    The Chinese have a very broad diet compared to Americans. Most of our meat comes from a narrow range of animals, and most of our grains come from a narrow range or cereal crops. Most of our vegetables come from...ah, who am I kidding, we don't eat vegetables.

    I'm not saying this is good or bad. There are strengths and weaknesses to either approach.
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    There are wackier theories out there. One coming from CCP propagandists this year says the virus was created in a military lab somewhere in the US and soaked into fish which were then frozen and exported to China.

    This was a horrible sneak attack on a peaceful honest democratic people and wrought dramatic devastation, but meanwhile their economy couldn't be stronger and they have handled the pandemic incredibly well so almost nobody ever got sick much less died and ignore those lockdowns and blackouts and bank protests.

    The streets are paved in gold and jade, down is up, snakes are magical dragons, pollution tastes great, the world is envious, and secretly everyone wants to live under the totalitarian thumb of the glorious Party.

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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    There are wackier theories out there. One coming from CCP propagandists this year says the virus was created in a military lab somewhere in the US and soaked into fish which were then frozen and exported to China.
    So that's what Shaggy's been up to ... he's not going on walkabout as he claims, but making bioweapons outta fish... why that piscine sunnuva gun...


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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Oooo, and I DID admit that I was in charge of a bio lab that worked with fish...

    That was several years ago...in fact, now that I think about it, that was about 16 years ago

    Where has the time gone???
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  11. #731
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    I didn't send my fish frozen, though. I sent them in letter form. They were sent in the form of a piscatorial epistle.
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    I didn't send my fish frozen, though. I sent them in letter form. They were sent in the form of a piscatorial epistle.
    Was it a phishing attempt?


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  13. #733

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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post
    Was it a phishing attempt?


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  14. #734
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    China’s Xi offers closer cooperation with Russia in a call with Putin

    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/15/w...na-russia.html

    India is also supportive.

    Thing is, if Europe keep this up (along Greece, with our sold out idiot PM) there would be hell to pay.
    If they are in their right minds they should lift the sanctions, that are basically hurting Europe, ignore NATO calls for more weapon sending and try to make up, at least on basic matters with Russia.
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Only yesterday, Ukraine decided to terminate the visa-free regime with Russia. From July 1, Russians will need visas for a trip to Ukraine. This indicates how difficult it is to break the ties between the citizens of the two countries.

  16. #736
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    The corporate media are getting more ridiculous by the day.

    Here's the BBC trying to set everyone's hair on fire even though embedded within this screed they admit there is no evidence for any of this.


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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    It is my understanding that EU countries are "pushing" the clown to sign a treaty with Russia in order to end the conflict.
    This would be beneficial for everyone (except US) as the sanctions would be lowered, Europe would regain partial resources in food,oil,gas, Ukraine would salvage part of it's ground, instead of losing it all at the end and the war and killing will stop.
    I am not sure how that sounds to the ears of US politics as they obviously want the war to continue but I don't think Europe can take any more financial hits so it may be the one time that they will get their heads our of their arskles and listen to reason (hopefully). But I think this is where we are slipping to right now.
    OH, and to answer to dil, propaganda is not working any more to people in Europe. Took a couple of months to sapatorize but they start to see the BS.
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    The corporate media are getting more ridiculous by the day.
    So the BBC report that the mayor of Mariupol has claimed that there is cholera in the city but they've been unable to verify the claim at this point. And that the UN claims that Mariupol is at risk of cholera. That's your definition of "trying to set everyone's hair on fire"? You're really reaching.

    It is my understanding that EU countries are "pushing" the clown to sign a treaty with Russia
    Not really. A couple of high profile figures have floated it, including Henry Kissinger who's American so contradicts your case, but the overwhelming response has been "Hell No!" and, over the weekend, the NATO Chief warned that the conflict could last for years and that Ukraine will have our continuing support.
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  19. #739
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    No offence but NATO means nothing to the current situation. It does not make the agenda of EU economical policy.
    Henry Kissinger? Not EU not making the agenda.

    But we will see in the next couple of days. Note that I chose "It is my understanding" and "may be" so I don't get the usual grab from a word from some people.
    Also this is not conflict material. I mean if they don't do the change there would be hell to pay. Will see...

    P.S. It's been clear that US does not want to put boots on the ground , they just send weapons for Ukrainians to die so that is another case where, from my point of view, the war will Stop suddenly and completely.
    Last edited by sapator; Jun 20th, 2022 at 09:04 AM.
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by sapator View Post
    P.S. It's been clear that US does not want to put boots on the ground , they just send weapons for Ukrainians to die so that is another case where, from my point of view, the war will Stop suddenly and completely.
    While any piece of that could be considered true, it also presupposes that Ukraine would happily be subsumed into Russia, or submit to having a Russian puppet government similar to the one they threw out, if they didn't get weapons.

    They made it clear that they didn't want Russian control. The only difference that the weapons have made is that they have been able to fight back effectively against an enemy with vastly greater manpower resources. They're taking heavy losses (at least by modern standards; by WW I standards, the losses are about as bad as a hangnail) and have not broken. That shows that they are willing to fight and to die. You might not like the cause. You might feel they are wrong. But they are fighting and dying for what they believe in, right or wrong.
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    It's been clear that US does not want to put boots on the ground , they just send weapons for Ukrainians to die...
    I agree, same with the whole of NATO so I'm not placing the responsibility for that at the door of the US. It's a responsibility we all share if you think that democracy is something worth fighting for.

    Personally, I think we should have had boots on the ground before the invasion and you'll find me saying so if you go back to the beginning of the thread. I think we should have established a no fly zone. We're currently fighting this war to draw, which is stupid. When you fight, to fight to win.

    I get that we fear a nuclear escalation but I don't believe our involvement is the decision point for Putin on that; the decision point is whether he's losing. So we are not affecting his choice on why whether to go nuclear, we're only affecting when.

    It does not make the agenda of EU economical policy.
    They've fast tracked Ukrainian candidacy...
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Jun 21st, 2022 at 11:27 AM.
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    It's a responsibility we all share if you think that democracy is something worth fighting for.
    That's pretty rich.

    The goal is to subjugate Ukraine for exploitation. This horrible war is the way Russia is resisting the threat of such subjugation itself.

    This crusade has nothing to do with "democracy" at all, because the goal is to push Ukraine even deeper into the hands of strongmen leading bands of thugs.


    I don't suggest that Eastern Europe should simply bend the knee and cede territory so that Russia can gain security against the ravening EU. It's a mess I see no easy answers for, but a mess that should not be yet one more for the US to solve for SquabbleLandia. We should adopt a policy of withdrawal and stop pouring in cash, arms, and ongoing remotely-sensed intelligence and advice.

    People here are done with this BS and both D's and R's supporting it can expect black eyes come the elections this fall.

  23. #743
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    That's pretty rich.

    The goal is to subjugate Ukraine for exploitation. This horrible war is the way Russia is resisting the threat of such subjugation itself.

    This crusade has nothing to do with "democracy" at all, because the goal is to push Ukraine even deeper into the hands of strongmen leading bands of thugs.
    What history have you been living in? Not this one, but which one? Ukraine has had plenty of problems, but it has been moving in a better direction after kicking out the last corrupt regime. They certainly didn't become a shining beacon of democracy, and they still have a high level of corruption, but it certainly isn't consistent with any past history to say that the goal was to push Ukraine anywhere.

    People here are done with this BS and both D's and R's supporting it can expect black eyes come the elections this fall.
    No they are not. A moment spent searching for polls on the subject would show that you are straight up wrong about this.
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    I haven't seen any June polls. But the comparing the Pew polls done in February, March, and then May all showed support for the aggression spending and money laundering trending downward.

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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    I mean, a totalitarian regime led by the same man for 20 years invaded a democratic neighbour... but you choose your own reality I guess. I feel like you're choosing an increasingly detached one.
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Not everyone is drunk on the Kool-Aid.


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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    They've fast tracked Ukrainian candidacy...
    What I meant was that NATO is not a bank nor does tell EU how to run their economy.
    Fast tracking to join EU....That is funny. Do you know how long it takes? Also there is a thing called VETO. You just don't join like that.
    Anyhow I was wondering about another thing here. Supposedly Russia did nothing, Ukraine joined NATO and then tried to set long range ballistic missiles in Ukraine in the borders with Russia.
    Any guesses on what would have happened?
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Ukraine did not join NATO. If they had, NATO would be putting boots on the ground and being (more) actively than they are. What happened was Ukraine applied to NATO. The potential for missiles is the reason Putin is giving for the invasion ... so that he doesn't have NATO up on his doorstep ... only that doesn't seem to hold water because each of the countries he's invaded and taken over in the last few years, all have been up against other NATO nations ... so... yeah....

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  29. #749
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post
    Ukraine did not join NATO. If they had, NATO would be putting boots on the ground and being (more) actively than they are.

    -tg
    OK so let's go with that assumption, can we imagine the impact? Give or take.
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  30. #750

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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by sapator View Post
    OK so let's go with that assumption, can we imagine the impact? Give or take.
    I would say Russia never would never have attacked...the full weight of NATO would have come down.
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    I haven't seen any June polls. But the comparing the Pew polls done in February, March, and then May all showed support for the aggression spending and money laundering trending downward.
    Or, you might say that opposition to spending so much money on them is rising, but it's rising from a very low base. The latest polls suggest that opposition hasn't quite doubled, but from 7% up to 12%.

    So, trends there are, but support is still quite strong. A distinct minority will be outraged, but they are distinguished mostly by their small numbers, not by their opposition.
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  32. #752
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by sapator View Post
    OK so let's go with that assumption, can we imagine the impact? Give or take.
    I would say that Russia would never have attacked, either. I think Putin wanted an easy victory, not a lengthy war. He appears to attack those who he thinks he can beat easily, not those who are of greatest strategic value to him.
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  33. #753
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    OK.
    I would say that Russia would have attacked when missiles where turned on them, as they already did with Crimea for lesser reasons. They would have been pushed so far. I'm also pretty certain that NATO would have done what they do now even if Ukraine was in NATO (and I draw that conclusion from years of Greek - Turkish confrontation but that is another subject). What they did was in the wild case of US putting boots , prevented a confrontation with them.
    But let's say that NATO did put boots (serious boots) and Russia did attacked. What would have been better? All of us barking from our couches or getting physically involved?
    So either NATO did what they did to start a war, mix economy for reasons we written before or NATO was to late and caught of guard, because...Because Russia would never have attacked.
    Last edited by sapator; Jun 22nd, 2022 at 11:18 AM. Reason: a mod told me. Covid-19 the BS of the century.
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  34. #754
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by sapator View Post
    OK.
    I would say that Russia would have attacked when missiles where turned on them,
    That isn't what history shows, though Putin wasn't around then. When missiles were moved into Poland, the USSR didn't attack, they negotiated the intermediate ban (whatever that was called), and everybody took a step back.
    I'm also pretty certain that NATO would have done what they do now even if Ukraine was in NATO (and I draw that conclusion from years of Greek - Turkish confrontation but that is another subject).
    I rather think that NATO is regretting the inclusion of Turkey, though I have never heard of anybody saying so publicly.

    So either NATO did what they did to start a war, mix economy for reasons we written before or NATO was to late and caught of guard, because...Because Russia would never have attacked.
    Yeah, that. The US was saying that Russia was going to attack, everybody else was saying that they weren't, including Ukraine.
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  35. #755
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Interesting thoughts.
    I guess we will never know now but when the smoke clears we can look at the new world map.
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  36. #756
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    When I was but a wee lad, we had a shower curtain that was a map of the world. My sister might still have that shower curtain around somewhere. The outlines of the continents are the same (wrong, of course, since it was a projection of an oblate spheroid onto a flat surface), but the countries....well, SOME of them are the same.
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  37. #757
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Depends on the era.
    Probably more settled in the last centuries but take for example the Byzantine empire , it was HUGE and it was Greek. Now Greece is just a small fraction. Or the Roman empire and so on.
    Latest modern "break" I can think of is USSR....Hopefully they are trying to reunite
    ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ
    πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν·

  38. #758
    King of sapila
    Join Date
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ
    πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν·

  39. #759
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
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    24,482

    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    That article mentions "wind industry executives" without really saying whether this is the extortive plutocrats trying to profit from "green" tax incentives and grants, the ones who simply lobby politicians to blow hard, or those ranked high in flatulence.

  40. #760

    Thread Starter
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by sapator View Post

    I'm not even going to open it...to me it is like handing someone a milk jug and saying "does his taste bad to you?". Or "taste this, I think it is bad"

    You tell us...
    Please remember next time...elections matter!

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