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Thread: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

  1. #281
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Technically, I work with a biological research facility. Of course, it's research on fish, but that can be harmful (salmon..ella, perhaps?).

    You seem to be insinuating something without actually saying it. The most plausible reason is that you don't want to say something that is clearly wrong, so you leave plausible deniability. Why is a biological research facility alarming? Are you saying it's bio weapons? If so, then what's the evidence? Studying diseases, transmissions, and so forth, can all go on at biological research facilities, some of that could be dangerous, none of that should be either surprising or alarming. After all, I really have worked at a biological research facility. We were always a bit unclear on the official name, and we certainly didn't use the term facility, but the first two words of that phrase might have been in the name on the building...though I can't remember whether 'biology' was in there, and I think it wasn't.
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  2. #282
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    There you go people. See a proper excuse and learn!
    Sorry to disappoint you but the research was for anthrax and one other thing I forget, won't go for the links again...OK that was quick so. plague, cholera, anthrax.
    Here is a link of what happened https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/...abs-in-ukraine
    Just skip the denials and read down. So your representative accidentally or not acclaimed that US is working with Ukraine to diminish their bio labs and of course the state denied everything connecting to them.
    Other than that. Make more excuses for you government or for yourself to believe the gover.... Err, hold on a minute here, that is what happened on the other threa...
    No.No,no. I'm outa here. Only war affairs for me, if anything special comes in...
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  3. #283
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Europe showed its inability to be civil numerous times. The worst cases were two World Wars, preceded by bloody colonialism and mistreatment of its underclasses for centuries.

    For 70 years US tax payers have been supporting a bribe to keep them from killing each other, but that candle has now been burnt from both ends and met in the middle. There is no more left to give so the welfare policies are ending.

    As darkness falls the old Horsemen have been arising once more. That's what Russia is responding to.

    It is a terrible thing, but it seems inevitable. And it is probably just the beginning of conflict around the world as it settles into a new reality with the end of Pax Americana with all of its warts. Factor in demographic collapse and the desperation just accelerates.

    There are no quick solutions. It took the US 80 years to end the institution of slavery established by Brits and Scots in the southern colonies and the legacy of that still hangs around the neck like an albatross.

    Nobody is sporting halos anywhere in the world, but it's about resources. When people get cold and hungry they turn on each other. Ukraine has wheat production and offers a path to invade and subjugate Russia for energy and mineral resources.
    There is just so much hyperbole to unpack there. I'll try and address a few points but it's frankly such a disjointed mess that it may be beyond my capabilities.

    1. You seem to be implying that a lack of resources is going to lead to some mad max/Fallout style of social collapse ("but it's about resources. When people get cold and hungry they turn on each other.") We do not have a shortage of resource in Europe that would require us to invade Russia. We've got plenty of food, plenty of water (too much water, frankly), we've got plenty of energy too with large as yet untapped oil fields (just ask Sapator), nuclear capacity and burgeoning green energy industries. We're going to have to adjust our infrastructure somewhat over the next couple of years to accommodate a lack of oil supply from Russia but that's not going to be due to a lack of resource. So what is the resource you feel we're going to be desperate for and in what timescale are you framing this collapse?

    2. You also seem to implying that there is something intrinsically warlike about Europeans. There is. Europeans are humans and humans are warlike. We are not exceptional in this regard. Human beings have dunking on each other since Ug first worked out to hit things with a stick and the only reason that European wars stand out is because Europe was the first part of the world to industrialise. You might want to look at what Americans were doing to each other in the late 1800s.

    3. You seem to be implying that the only reason the Europeans haven't been killing each other for the last 100 years or so was the benign presence of good ol' Uncle Sam. While I will certainly acknowledge that a US presence was needed in the cold war, there has been almost zero appetite for conflict in Europe in that time. Where there has been conflict it has been driven by power games - e.g. in the power vacuum created by the collapse of Yugoslavia. Setting the cold war aside, what is your case that Europe is incapable of resolving its problems without you? And while we are grateful for your support during the cold war, lets not pretend that the US wasn't driven by it's own interests.

    4. What is the association you are making between "demographic collapse" and inevitable conflict? Particularly given that the reason you seem to be citing (erroneously, as established in 1) for that conflict is resource scarcity... which population decline would alleviate, not exacerbate. I think you fundamentally miss-understand the risk engendered by demographic collapse. It comes with two main risks, that an aging population in less able to produce and look after it's aged and that it is less able to put young people under arms in order to pursue conflict. The former is trivially solved with immigration (the UK has been doing this since the 70s - it's not like there aren't people from around the world desperate to come to the UK) and the latter is only relevant if one is pursuing conflict.

    5. "It took the US 80 years to end the institution of slavery established by Brits and Scots in the southern colonies and the legacy of that still hangs around the neck like an albatross." Setting aside the astonishing hypocrisy on display here, what is the relevance?

    I could probably go on but I can't be bothered. I know American exceptionalism is a thing but I've rarely seen it so starkly demonstrated as by that post.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Mar 10th, 2022 at 12:17 PM.
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  4. #284
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Denial is not a river in Egypt.

  5. #285
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    I wouldn't dismiss what dil said in it's entirely.
    Certainly Europe is not at it's best. We Got Germany sucking on everyone resources and wealth we don't have a proper army. Probably France Greece and Poland excluded. We do not drill for oil when we should and we got fooled to get in Russian conflict.you might not admit it but we wanted to be on US boots by joining NATO that we shouldn't, not for many years now. Or let me put it another way, why do we still have NATO? US pushed to a Russian war that would not have happened OK, maybe someday, maybe but NATO just send an invitation.

    On the other hand, we don't go fk all mankind with wars for "terror" and we got enough resources. Also we have thousand of years or culture and renaissance and basically US are Europe people...Except the Indians.
    I would agree that currently we are at a state that we gave Germany the right to re-equip itself with weapons so probably WWIII will come soon enough.
    Also considering Russia a Europe state as we should have done in the first place we can nuke you!So don't be a smarty pants.

    Also Europe is not a nation, rather than a collaboration with different cultures. You got 1 we got 50.So whatareyougonnado.
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  6. #286
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    you might not admit it but we wanted to be on US boots by joining NATO
    I don't have any problem admitting it. Post WW2 we wanted troops in Europe and America wanted a platform from which it could project power. That's what's called a partnership.

    America didn't win the cold war anymore than Europe or the Common Wealth did. What won the cold war was America, Europe and the Common Wealth.
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  7. #287
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Yeah I don't argue with that , what I meant and wrote in the post above was there is no need for world nannies right now. There is no cold or world war....Unless what NATO started might turn into one.
    Also can't we expand the emojis? I wanted a rocket, a bomb, a couple of ferrets...
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  8. #288

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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Technically, I work with a biological research facility. Of course, it's research on fish, but that can be harmful (salmon..ella, perhaps?).

    You seem to be insinuating something without actually saying it. The most plausible reason is that you don't want to say something that is clearly wrong, so you leave plausible deniability. Why is a biological research facility alarming? Are you saying it's bio weapons? If so, then what's the evidence? Studying diseases, transmissions, and so forth, can all go on at biological research facilities, some of that could be dangerous, none of that should be either surprising or alarming. After all, I really have worked at a biological research facility. We were always a bit unclear on the official name, and we certainly didn't use the term facility, but the first two words of that phrase might have been in the name on the building...though I can't remember whether 'biology' was in there, and I think it wasn't.
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Why the heck is it so important to prevent those bio labs falling into russian hands? they surely have their own plague, cholera, anthrax stems and labs, right? So russians getting access to these germs and viruses and what not else cannot be the concern. so unless there is something the US does not want russians to get their hands on, it does not make sense. My best guess would be that there are some very unpleasent evidences.

    In regards to humans keep killing each other: i dont think it is really bred into us. the problem is that people can be driven into hate and war by propaganda. There is russian propaganda, there is western propaganda, propaganda is everywhere these days. it is our task to see this and dont let them make us shoot at each other. the world does not become a better place by killing someone whatever this person did, or whatever you think this person did because you had been brainwashed with propaganda.

    And in regards to the future of the US: i am afraid, but i think you will also soon have your turmoil. world economy is about to be restarted and that requires it to be demolished first globally. remember my words. i do not know what will hit you, maybe huge sclae racial riots? maybe the poor? you propably know best.

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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    today i though what a nice place this world would be if humans are unable to lie. imagine everytime someone attempts a lie, their tongue knots or gets paralyzed. that would certainly help.
    thou shall speak the truth only!

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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by digitalShaman View Post
    today i though what a nice place this world would be if humans are unable to lie. imagine everytime someone attempts a lie, their tongue knots or gets paralyzed. that would certainly help.
    thou shall speak the truth only!
    Who's truth? Humans don't all evaluate things/situations the same. Truth isn't always black and white. There are some basic truths. We are born, we exist. But when you start going deeper into our existence or what's best way to live, I don't know what the truth is. But I doubt we could ever agree on one truth. I'm all for peace and love but it's more complicated than that. At least that's my truth.

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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    Who's truth? Humans don't all evaluate things/situations the same. Truth isn't always black and white. There are some basic truths. We are born, we exist. But when you start going deeper into our existence or what's best way to live, I don't know what the truth is. But I doubt we could ever agree on one truth. I'm all for peace and love but it's more complicated than that. At least that's my truth.
    Thats absolutely correct and therefore no human shall knot anotherones tongue. it was meant to be done by some higher principle, call it god if you will. assuming there is some ultimate truth that this higher beeing is able to see.

  13. #293
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    The US has its own problems. Nothing an election can't fix though:


  14. #294
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    You might want to look at what Americans were doing to each other in the late 1800s.
    To be fair, while we may have perfected our practice on one another in the middle of the 1800s, we were quite inclusive both before and after that.

    Though I thought you were going to point out what the Americans were doing to each other in the 1300s, which really does make the point: Humans have never been particularly peaceful. The only real question is how far they could project their aggression.
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by digitalShaman View Post
    Why the heck is it so important to prevent those bio labs falling into russian hands? they surely have their own plague, cholera, anthrax stems and labs, right?
    I was wondering about that one, as well. I was always under the impression that Russia, along with the US, perhaps China, and perhaps some of the EU countries, were the only ones that still had things like the smallpox virus, truly weaponized anthrax, and other bio weapons. Back around the start of the Iraq war (the recent one, not the first one), there was talk about how most countries hadn't figured out how to keep bioweapons stable, and deliver them as aerosols. Only the USSR and the US had those built up, and we have been on a long process of destroying our stockpile (which was at Umatilla, WA. The storage bunkers were visible from I-82). I'd be quite surprised if the Russians had anything to learn from either us or Ukraine, in that regard. They're no slouches in the field.
    In regards to humans keep killing each other: i dont think it is really bred into us.
    I sure hope not, but if you look back through history, it's hard to be optimistic. Partly, of course, it is the wars that come down through history. The 'great' leaders are usually great mostly based on body count. We remember some of the poets, some of the artists, and all of the butchers.
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  16. #296
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by digitalShaman View Post
    today i though what a nice place this world would be if humans are unable to lie. imagine everytime someone attempts a lie, their tongue knots or gets paralyzed. that would certainly help.
    thou shall speak the truth only!
    Ah, no. For one thing, that which we believe to be true need not necessarily be true. We've recently had some pretty ferocious arguments. I never felt anybody in that was lying. I didn't agree with their truth, but I believed that it was their truth.
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    An inreresting (and funny) video about the world economic forum that I think is worth watching.
    (I wanted to post it in the coronavirus thread , but it is closed, then I put it here)


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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Truth, probably means that an intentional fallacy cannot be spoken. P.E., there are not dinosaurs on that cave..Going in......
    AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA NOOOOOO NOOOOOOOOOOOOO AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    An inreresting (and funny) video
    Careful, you're heading right back into the territory that got that thread shut down and members banned. And given that the video posted has zero relevance to this thread, that's not a good look. take this as a warning.
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    From satellite pictures it's looking like the Russian's are going to start attacking Kyiv in earnest today. Given the surprisingly stiff resistance the Ukrainians have been able to put up so far it'll be interesting to see what happens over the next 3 days or so.
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    So your evidence for this is that he wiped his nose and looked tired...
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    So your evidence for this is that he wiped his nose and looked tired...
    make your own decision, i made mine

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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by digitalShaman View Post
    today i though what a nice place this world would be if humans are unable to lie. imagine everytime someone attempts a lie, their tongue knots or gets paralyzed. that would certainly help.
    thou shall speak the truth only!
    What happens when your wife says "does this dress make me look fat"?
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    Who's truth? Humans don't all evaluate things/situations the same. Truth isn't always black and white. There are some basic truths. We are born, we exist. But when you start going deeper into our existence or what's best way to live, I don't know what the truth is. But I doubt we could ever agree on one truth. I'm all for peace and love but it's more complicated than that. At least that's my truth.
    Agreed....here is a good example. My religion is the only true religion. Try and hammer that out.
    Last edited by TysonLPrice; Mar 11th, 2022 at 06:26 AM.
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  26. #306
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Again, the only universal truth is 42.
    Thanks.
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Ah, but what is the universal question?
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    We have to reverse engineer it and talk back in a couple of millions of years.
    You'll be here,right?
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    Ah, but what is the universal question?
    You just asked it
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Also their public sector behavior reminds me of Greek public sector behavior. Must have taken the reference from us and lighten it up a bit as ours is much worse!
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Breaking the non go for once and this is coming from Russian briefing so I don't know if it is true or false but I think an international committed must ask the documents to be turned in to see if this is valid. For now just reporting this with a question mark.

    "Russian Defense Ministry announced Thu that the US-funded biological labs in Ukraine were conducting experiments with bat coronavirus samples. The purpose of Pentagon-funded biological research in Ukraine was to find ways to covertly spread deadly pathogens, Sputnik reported."

    https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/...eb4ceb5ceaf%2F
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    That's pretty ridiculous, but awesome propaganda. After all, every single part of that statement can be true and yet the whole thing need not be. You can't do better than that when it comes to propaganda: No part is a lie, but the whole thing is a lie. Technically, the whole thing wouldn't be a lie, it would just lead people to the wrong conclusion.

    "Bat coronavirus samples" Yes, there's a reason why bats are studied (they have a weird immune system that facilitates virus mutations), and there are a bajillion different corona viruses, of which bats host a goodly number. The US-funded bit could be as simple as WHO funding (the US gives money to the WHO, some might even be dedicated to virus research, and therefore any WHO funded virus research could be said to be US funded). And so on.

    Of course, this is SOP for Russia. Spreading a story of diseases being a US plot goes back to the USSR. It has been a very effective strategy for them in the past, so there's no surprise that they'd do it again. Seems to me they did it with COVID, as well, but I'm not going to look it up.
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    I would keep a short basket.
    You jump to the conclusion immediately I keep a short basket and that would be for the opposite also. I kept a short basket when China showed that US funded the labs, you where sure it was propaganda. In the end Fauci spoken and you where embarrassed (I just wanted to attack you for something since the known thread is no more, so eat dirt!) while I was laughing my socks off.
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Quote Originally Posted by sapator View Post
    Breaking the non go for once and this is coming from Russian briefing so I don't know if it is true or false but I think an international committed must ask the documents to be turned in to see if this is valid. For now just reporting this with a question mark.

    "Russian Defense Ministry announced Thu that the US-funded biological labs in Ukraine were conducting experiments with bat coronavirus samples. The purpose of Pentagon-funded biological research in Ukraine was to find ways to covertly spread deadly pathogens, Sputnik reported."

    https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/...eb4ceb5ceaf%2F
    Strong comminist party followers in Greece -- this is what the country is famous for. They have history for generous financing from the soviets and now Russia's FSB and propaganda.

    Of course sapator is not receiving any of this as he is propagating them lies out of his own marxist beliefs. The active FSB agents in the country being "developed" call such actors "useful idiots" -- always full of them.

    cheers,
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    The tweet has this advisory: "China state-affiliated media". Draw your own conclusions.
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    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    As I've said, I'm not for or against at the moment so...
    wqweto is a famous comedian, I can't think of anything else.
    If I had to justify what he said it would be that the communist party here is at 5% of the votes and also I detest the communist party and I would probably put my self to the patriotic side. I haven't read Marx or his beliefs but if it's about big bubbles and rainbows, I'm up for it! But he is joking and with good ones also!
    ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ
    πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν·

  37. #317
    King of sapila
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    6,597

    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Also Russia is Communist?....
    Soiuz nerushimyj respublik svobodnykh
    Splotila naveki Velikaia Rus.
    Da zdravstvuet sozdannyj volej narodov
    Edinyj, moguchij Sovetskij Soiuz! !!!
    GO USSR!!!!!!!!!!!
    ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ
    πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν·

  38. #318
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Modesto, Ca.
    Posts
    5,196

    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Now the news claims that Russia is showing a video of the Ukrainians making a fake video about casualties but that is actually fake news. Now this fake fake news is spreading on social media.

    Got to wonder how much harm social media is going to cause in the long run. It seem to be turning to the Dark Side.

  39. #319
    King of sapila
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    6,597

    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Hahaha, that was a good one!
    Ohh boy. Going for a pizza with a smile now, thanks.
    ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ
    πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν·

  40. #320
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    38,989

    Re: Current Russia Ukraine tensions

    Short basket? That's a phrase I am not familiar with. Can't quite figure what it means or why. Care to explain that one?

    The reason it is propaganda is that it isn't even a secret that the US has long had labs studying bio weapons, and even had a sizable stockpile of chemical and bio weapons. That's discussed in the newspaper, it's not even a 'pretend secret' (one of those things that everybody knows about but which is supposedly classified). So, THAT's not news. The only thing they are suggesting is news is that the US funded research in Ukraine in bioweapons. That's just absurd. When we don't make a secret about conducting bio weapon research, in what world does it make sense that we'd then set up some kind of 'secret' lab in a country that we aren't all that close to, which has always had close ties to Russia, and which is only semi-stable? We might as well hand any such stuff to the Russians...which we might as well anyways, because the Russians are known to be pretty good in the field, as well.

    So, it's not just propaganda, it's stupid propaganda. It makes no sense. They're counting on people not being aware that the US has been pretty open about such research, and them also thinking it makes sense that the US would conduct such research in about as insecure a location as they could possibly find. In other words, it's propaganda for the ignorant.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

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