Results 1 to 34 of 34

Thread: Libertarian Case Against Regulations of Social Media Companies

  1. #1

    Thread Starter
    Super Moderator dday9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    South Louisiana
    Posts
    10,598

    Libertarian Case Against Regulations of Social Media Companies

    I have seen a strong push, both from the right and the left, across the world to regulate social media.

    The argument that I hear from the right (to which Iím referring to the American right who have historically favored interventionist policies aimed at aiding corporations) claim that these companies are violating their own original concept of providing a free and open platform in which individuals can exercise their freedom of speech. Therefor they wish to regulate these companies as to hold them liable for deplatforming individuals.

    The argument that I hear from the left (to which Iím referring to the American left who have historically favored interventionist policies aimed at aiding individuals) is twofold. One is that these companies implement algorithms that unfavorably boost reach for those who produce more provocative headlines. The other is that these companies are pseudo media outlets who are not paying their fair share and because of their disproportionate influence as compared to legacy media they should therefor pay a special tax.

    The libertarian argument against the right is that these companies are indeed private companies and do not need to respect any constitutional, natural, or otherwise freedom of speech. If their terms of agreement allow them to remove an individual, then they can exercise that option. This isnít to say that you as an individual cannot criticize a company for a decision that they make in which you disagree with. In fact, if enough people criticize the company, then they may feel pressured to internally change their policies.

    The libertarian argument against the leftís first argument I detailed is the same as the argument I gave against the right. If a company is making more money by boosting provocative content but are threatened that people will stop using their service should they continue it, then they may feel pressured to change their policy otherwise face the possibility of decreasing revenue by less users using their service. The libertarian argument against the second is that while a tax imposed on a company would certainly cause a new liability that the company otherwise wouldnít have faced, it would have consequences. These consequences are not entirely known because the taxes have not yet been implemented, but historically speaking you can expect to see the company make decisions to minimize their loss of revenue by moving operations to more favorable government(s) that would decrease their tax liability, layoff employees to reduce their greatest expense, and/or alter their algorithms to more favorably boost content that drives in more ad revenue (in adverse action the the first grievance of the left that I outlined).

    The libertarian solution is twofold. One would be to create a separate entity. If there is a market for a new social media outlet and an entrepreneur feels as if there is profit to be made, then it will be done. Case in point, look at Odysee and their rapid growth over the past year. The other is, as already mentioned, to continue to criticize these companies to put pressure on them so that they do what the market wants.

    Coercion by government will only lead to a reduction in quality that force out smaller businesses that cannot foot the bill of the increase in startup expenses. It would likely lead to the pre-1990s where those who watched TV could only get news from essentially 3 news networks that al had the same confirmation bias and same stories

    With all that being saidÖ fight! fight! fight!
    "Code is like humor. When you have to explain it, itís bad." - Cory House
    VbLessons | Code Tags | Sword of Fury - Jameram

  2. #2
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Posts
    3,609

    Re: Libertarian Case Against Regulations of Social Media Companies

    While I don't disagree something to consider is when an organization/company gets so large and powerful it tends to harm society as a whole. Tobacco companies for example. You can argue if you think cigarettes are harmful then just don't smoke. The companies will go under right? But the product is addictive, the big tobacco companies knew it, fighting the science with pseudo-science, and targeting teens to ensure a whole new generation of smokers.

    Recent revelations show similar behavior from Facebook. Hiding information where their own studies indicated a harm to young people. They hid it and and continued to do it. You can say just logoff and the companies will go under. But, they also have a product that can be called addictive and they too target a younger crowd.

    My personal belief is to leave the internet wide open and it will sort itself out. I'm also of the mind that if you don't like it, logoff. Another thing to consider though is when people/organizations get rich and powerful they become some kind of juggernaut that does need reigned in. History shows this. Big oil, steel, chemicals, etc. It is just human nature to abuse power and greed always kicks in. And the little guy is always the one trampled on.
    Last edited by TysonLPrice; Oct 24th, 2021 at 05:02 AM.
    Please remember next time...elections matter!

  3. #3
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Posts
    3,609

    Re: Libertarian Case Against Regulations of Social Media Companies

    I made this separate from my link/opinion. I think it should be part of the conversation though. It goes past "just log off....It is about real damage.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/techn...n-hate-speech/
    Please remember next time...elections matter!

  4. #4
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    6,666

    Re: Libertarian Case Against Regulations of Social Media Companies

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    I made this separate from my link/opinion. I think it should be part of the conversation though. It goes past "just log off....It is about real damage.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/techn...n-hate-speech/
    Trying to police the entire world on your platform is a foolish endeavor at best in my opinion. A department of say, 100 individuals cannot effectively police 100 million people. However, AIs are getting smarter every year. Perhaps one day AI will be able to handle the policing of social media.
    Treeview with NodeAdded/NodesRemoved events | BlinkLabel control | Calculate Permutations | Object Enums | ComboBox with centered items | .Net Internals article(not mine) | Wizard Control | Understanding Multi-Threading | Simple file compression | Demon Arena

    Copy/move files using Windows Shell

    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

  5. #5
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Posts
    3,609

    Re: Libertarian Case Against Regulations of Social Media Companies

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    Trying to police the entire world on your platform is a foolish endeavor at best in my opinion. A department of say, 100 individuals cannot effectively police 100 million people. However, AIs are getting smarter every year. Perhaps one day AI will be able to handle the policing of social media.
    Perhaps but I don't say throw up your hands and give up. Societies have regulated media since the printing press. News papers, radio, TV, movies, etc. That why there are libel laws. The internet is a new animal but as much as I like the wild west approach it should have limits.

    Even here we have limits; post some profanity and see if the mods feel it is a foolish endeavor flagging you for it.

    And the republicans certainly don't think it is a foolish endeavor:

    https://www.brookings.edu/blog/techt...on-230-reform/
    Last edited by TysonLPrice; Oct 25th, 2021 at 05:09 AM.
    Please remember next time...elections matter!

  6. #6
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    6,666

    Re: Libertarian Case Against Regulations of Social Media Companies

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    Even here we have limits; post some profanity and see if the mods feel it is a foolish endeavor flagging you for it.
    The thing about here is that there are enough "guards" to police the population effectively. There is no practical way to police an entire online population of hundreds of millions without some form of intelligent automation, not unless you want to pay enormous sums of money to gigantic departments to handle it, even then it may not be enough. Lets say you have a department of 3000 people that spend all day just looking for offensive content, it's still not going to be enough. I really don't know what the solution is here besides using a powerful AI but this is certainly not a problem I think we can solve right now.
    Treeview with NodeAdded/NodesRemoved events | BlinkLabel control | Calculate Permutations | Object Enums | ComboBox with centered items | .Net Internals article(not mine) | Wizard Control | Understanding Multi-Threading | Simple file compression | Demon Arena

    Copy/move files using Windows Shell

    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

  7. #7
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Posts
    3,609

    Re: Libertarian Case Against Regulations of Social Media Companies

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    The thing about here is that there are enough "guards" to police the population effectively. There is no practical way to police an entire online population of hundreds of millions without some form of intelligent automation, not unless you want to pay enormous sums of money to gigantic departments to handle it, even then it may not be enough. Lets say you have a department of 3000 people that spend all day just looking for offensive content, it's still not going to be enough. I really don't know what the solution is here besides using a powerful AI but this is certainly not a problem I think we can solve right now.
    That makes sense and it is a huge issue. If we think it is a just US issue read up on India. Facebook is accused of allowing, there by fomenting, all kind of hate speech and violence there. I think Ethiopia also. It has a lot of attention at the moment.
    Please remember next time...elections matter!

  8. #8
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
    Posts
    7,730

    Re: Libertarian Case Against Regulations of Social Media Companies

    I think of myself as both Libertarian and Liberal (aside - I think it's weird that people view these as opposites. I think that's because Liberal tends to have a different meaning in the US and that many on the right have warped the meaning of Libertarianism to mean "I can do whatever I like regardless of the harm it does to others" instead of "you can do whatever you like as long as it doesn't harm others). With that in mind my basic instinct is to agree that social media companies shouldn't need to be regulated.

    However, I do think there is an essential exception to this and it was written into my aside above: the Libertarian position is meant to include the proviso that the actions we allow do not bring harm to others. From what's coming out at the moment it's becoming increasingly clear that not only are Facebook's actions doing harm, they knew they were doing harm and carried on anyway. At that point I don't think you can avoid a call for legislation. The market will not regulate this because of the addictive nature of the product and they've demonstrated an inability (or unwillingness) to self regulate their own behaviour. At that point they've given up their right to be treated liberally and must be externally regulated.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  9. #9

    Thread Starter
    Super Moderator dday9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    South Louisiana
    Posts
    10,598

    Re: Libertarian Case Against Regulations of Social Media Companies

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    While I don't disagree something to consider is when an organization/company gets so large and powerful it tends to harm society as a whole.
    One of the reasons I am not a full-on anarchocapitalist is because of a similar (though slightly different) argument you're making here. I tend to subscribe to the notion that an uber large corporation in an anarchocapitalist society would essentially become a pseudo-state, however theoretically it'd also be difficult for corporations to become as large as they have without the support of the state, though not impossible. An argument I heard before in the past dealt with private security firms in an utopian anarchocapitalist state wherein the corporation that would be best at settling disputes amongst injured parties would grow exponentially larger until it ultimately became a state itself.

    However, in this case I think the best solution would be to stop shielding these companies from civil liability and allow for individuals to bring civil suits against these social media outlets. A great example would be Alex Jones. Put aside any feeling you have about Alex Jones, I personally think he's a grifter who puts on a "show" to make money but if I look at him in the context of just a user of Facebook/Twitter/Google then I can genuinely see him (or his attorney) make the case to say "these social media platforms claim they do not curate content, yet they removed me because they did not like the content I put out". A jury or mediator can decide whether or not he violated the social media's terms of conditions or not, but then that would hold these companies to a stricter standard of enforcement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    Perhaps one day AI will be able to handle the policing of social media.
    That would honestly scare me.

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    I think of myself as both Libertarian and Liberal (aside - I think it's weird that people view these as opposites. I think that's because Liberal tends to have a different meaning in the US and that many on the right have warped the meaning of Libertarianism to mean "I can do whatever I like regardless of the harm it does to others" instead of "you can do whatever you like as long as it doesn't harm others).
    Ludwig von Mises' book Liberalism was originally renamed to The Free and Prosperous Commonwealth when translated to English because of the word having a different meaning in the United States, however in later editions he renamed the book back to Liberalism because he wanted to "reclaim" the meaning in the US.

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    However, I do think there is an essential exception to this and it was written into my aside above: the Libertarian position is meant to include the proviso that the actions we allow do not bring harm to others. From what's coming out at the moment it's becoming increasingly clear that not only are Facebook's actions doing harm, they knew they were doing harm and carried on anyway. At that point I don't think you can avoid a call for legislation. The market will not regulate this because of the addictive nature of the product and they've demonstrated an inability (or unwillingness) to self regulate their own behaviour. At that point they've given up their right to be treated liberally and must be externally regulated.
    I agree with you that a company intentionally doing harm should have repercussions, however I would much rather see these implemented via the civil courts and not via legislation. If a company gets hit too much from civil suits because of its actions, eventually the company will need to change its practices or a new company will step up in its place to do a better job.
    "Code is like humor. When you have to explain it, itís bad." - Cory House
    VbLessons | Code Tags | Sword of Fury - Jameram

  10. #10
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    36,735

    Re: Libertarian Case Against Regulations of Social Media Companies

    It might well be best to try to hammer this out through the courts, but then again, perhaps not. There is little law on the subject that I am aware of. Just a few pieces along the lines of the Communications Decency Act, and all of them were written in an earlier, simpler, time.

    Having some legal mediator rule on whether or not the site violated their own TOC has one slight problem: They can just add one line, which LOTS of businesses have, and the problem would be settled. The line, of course, is, "we reserve the right to deny service to a customer on the basis of whim."

    Well, that last word isn't the typical way to say it, but it's essentially what it comes down to. There isn't anything preventing them from denying service to any individual or group so long as that group isn't some protected class of people (which can change, as well). Once that line is in there, then ANY action they take would be consistent with their TOC. They wouldn't even need to justify it.

    So then what?

    Basically, this ends up being a very sticky subject, which is why there are no clear rules.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  11. #11

    Thread Starter
    Super Moderator dday9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    South Louisiana
    Posts
    10,598

    Re: Libertarian Case Against Regulations of Social Media Companies

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Having some legal mediator rule on whether or not the site violated their own TOC has one slight problem: They can just add one line, which LOTS of businesses have, and the problem would be settled. The line, of course, is, "we reserve the right to deny service to a customer on the basis of whim."
    At that point, what difference would there be between a traditional business an social media companies? For example, during the Trump years, Sarah Huckabee Sanders was denied service at a restaurant and the left cheered. During these Biden years, one church has denied him communion and the right cheered. Both institutions have the right to deny the two individuals service. That isn't to say that individuals can't criticize/boycott/protest those businesses/institutions, but I don't think either side is saying that by government force the restaurant should serve Sarah Huckabee Sanders or the church should provide Joe Biden with communion. Why should social media be different?
    "Code is like humor. When you have to explain it, itís bad." - Cory House
    VbLessons | Code Tags | Sword of Fury - Jameram

  12. #12
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    36,735

    Re: Libertarian Case Against Regulations of Social Media Companies

    True, but that's why it's such a sticky subject. For one thing, you can deny somebody service because you don't like them, but not if you don't like them because of the color of their skin.

    It comes back down to that definition of pornography, "I can't define it, but I recognize it when I see it." (I may have gotten that slightly wrong, but it was a quote by Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart).
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  13. #13
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
    Posts
    7,730

    Re: Libertarian Case Against Regulations of Social Media Companies

    Ludwig von Mises' book Liberalism...
    That's interesting and seems to confirm my view of what Libertarianism is meant to be. Thanks for the history lesson.

    I agree with you that a company intentionally doing harm should have repercussions, however I would much rather see these implemented via the civil courts and not via legislation.
    Yeah, I think we're in line on the matter of principle but differ somewhat on how to implement that principle. I 100% agree with you that we should not be shielding companies from civil suits (or propping up failing business, on a similar note) but I don't feel you can stop there for two reasons:-

    1. It assumes that bad actors will be visibly and provably bad. Taking the facebook example (and assuming the allegations that are currently coming out turn out to be true - I think they will but lets not count chickens) I think we sleep walked into the danger they represent. We viewed them as an entirely benign company until about 5 or 6 years ago with the emergence of the Cambridge Analytica scandal - by which time they were already selling a harmful and addictive product on which we were all already hooked. The horse had already bolted.
    2. While civil law and the free market is likely to prevent bad actors from becoming monopolies, I think it's far from perfect at doing that. Bad monopolies will sometimes grow in that system and benign monopolies will often turn bad.

    With those two provisos in mind I agree with you that the free market (of which civil cases are a part) should be our first resort but I don't feel it should be our last.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  14. #14
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    36,735

    Re: Libertarian Case Against Regulations of Social Media Companies

    Legislation and the civil courts are not two different things. Legislation creates the laws that are the basis of suits in civil courts. Without the preceding legislation, a civil suit has no legal basis.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  15. #15
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Modesto, Ca.
    Posts
    4,796

    Re: Libertarian Case Against Regulations of Social Media Companies

    I just watched a documentary on NetFlix called "The Social Dilemma"

    It's @ 95minutes but I think it fits this subject perfectly. I was disturbed the most by some of effects social media has on the young (much higher rates of depression and suicide) and how it seems to be contributing to the deteriorating democracy.

    Some of it wasn't surprising, I new they were using my clicks to figure out what they could sell me but it's may be far more sinister than that. It probably only has a minimal effect on me, I don't use a cell phone, I only carry one for emergencies. I do use a computer and Google and Facebook so I do have exposure. But my main concern is for the young, not us old farts that are set in our ways.

    I would recommend watching it, you might not know as much as you think about how the system works.

  16. #16
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
    Posts
    7,730

    Re: Libertarian Case Against Regulations of Social Media Companies

    It probably only has a minimal effect on me
    If you think that, it's working...
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  17. #17
    Smooth Moperator techgnome's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    33,522

    Re: Libertarian Case Against Regulations of Social Media Companies

    Quote Originally Posted by dday9 View Post
    I agree with you that a company intentionally doing harm should have repercussions, however I would much rather see these implemented via the civil courts and not via legislation. If a company gets hit too much from civil suits because of its actions, eventually the company will need to change its practices or a new company will step up in its place to do a better job.
    In an ideal situation, that would be nice. But who's going to sue the likes of facebook or Google? Or Apple or Microsoft? Sure there are stories of the under dog lawyer taking on the big dogs and winning, but those are rare... more often than not, the big time lawyers will simply bury the small lawyer in motions or paper work, or simply overwhelm them with motions of this or that and drag it out that it becomes a war of attrition to the point where the plaintiff finally gives up "it's just no longer worth it." That's why legislation is needed in the first place, to set the standard upon which the case can be brought under.

    -tg
    * I don't respond to private (PM) requests for help. It's not conducive to the general learning of others.*
    * I also don't respond to friend requests. Save a few bits and don't bother. I'll just end up rejecting anyways.*
    * How to get EFFECTIVE help: The Hitchhiker's Guide to Getting Help at VBF - Removing eels from your hovercraft *
    * How to Use Parameters * Create Disconnected ADO Recordset Clones * Set your VB6 ActiveX Compatibility * Get rid of those pesky VB Line Numbers * I swear I saved my data, where'd it run off to??? *

  18. #18
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    22,956

    Re: Libertarian Case Against Regulations of Social Media Companies

    The thread title says it all. We're dealing with Libauthoritarians wearing armbands claiming libertarianism.

  19. #19

    Thread Starter
    Super Moderator dday9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    South Louisiana
    Posts
    10,598

    Re: Libertarian Case Against Regulations of Social Media Companies

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    The thread title says it all. We're dealing with Libauthoritarians wearing armbands claiming libertarianism.
    Oh please do elaborate. I am very curious as to what is going through your head to make an assertion that I have authoritarian tendencies.
    "Code is like humor. When you have to explain it, itís bad." - Cory House
    VbLessons | Code Tags | Sword of Fury - Jameram

  20. #20
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    36,735

    Re: Libertarian Case Against Regulations of Social Media Companies

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    I new they were using my clicks to figure out what they could sell me but it's may be far more sinister than that.
    Oh yes. They're also putting you into groups, and tracking how much your buy and what you look at. In other words, they constantly clock clique clicks.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  21. #21
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
    Posts
    7,730

    Re: Libertarian Case Against Regulations of Social Media Companies

    I am very curious as to what is going through your head to make an assertion that I have authoritarian tendencies.
    You're a mod... goes with the territory

    I do think that there is a substantial group of people who call themselves libertarian while actually being thoroughly authoritarian. "You can do whatever you want... as long as I think it's OK". I wouldn't put you in that bracket though.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  22. #22
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    36,735

    Re: Libertarian Case Against Regulations of Social Media Companies

    There's also a group that are anarchists that call themselves libertarian because it's a better word. People can take advantage of rules, but people can also take advantage of a lack of rules.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  23. #23

    Thread Starter
    Super Moderator dday9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    South Louisiana
    Posts
    10,598

    Re: Libertarian Case Against Regulations of Social Media Companies

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    You're a mod... goes with the territory
    Oh no... I am the authorities!
    "Code is like humor. When you have to explain it, itís bad." - Cory House
    VbLessons | Code Tags | Sword of Fury - Jameram

  24. #24
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
    Posts
    7,730

    Re: Libertarian Case Against Regulations of Social Media Companies

    I'd say that a political anarchist is actually pretty close to a libertarian, at least in practice.

    People often assume that political anarchy is... well... anarchy. Where everyone can just do whatever the hell they want with no fear of consequence. But that's not what political anarchy is. Political anarchy basically says, do away with centralised governments and allow local communities to self police. That there should be no laws but that doesn't mean that local communities can't hold you to acceptable standards of behaviour.

    As I see it, libertarianism basically says, you can do what you want as long as you do no harm. That's different to anarchism but could be viewed as a necessary tenet for anarchism to work as a system. In that vein I think it's unsurprising that you often get anarchists identifying as libertarians but it's not because they're co-opting the label, it's because both labels apply.

    Slightly amending my first paragraph, it's not so much that libertarianism is the same as anarchism but rather that one is a necessary step toward the other.

    N.B. I'm not espousing anarchism here. I think it's would be doomed to failure for any number of reasons but two jump to mind. 1. the lack of a centralised state would leave it as ready prey to more organised state based neighbours and 2. I suspect it would rapidly devolve into localised despotism. To my knowledge, that last time it was tried in any meaningful way was after the French revolution and it failed for both of these reasons.



    edit>
    Oh no... I am the authorities!
    Name:  Capture.PNG
Views: 35
Size:  257.8 KB
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Oct 28th, 2021 at 11:37 AM.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  25. #25
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Modesto, Ca.
    Posts
    4,796

    Re: Libertarian Case Against Regulations of Social Media Companies

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Oh yes. They're also putting you into groups, and tracking how much your buy and what you look at. In other words, they constantly clock clique clicks.
    Yeah, I was surprised that Google search results could be different depending on your location or the profile they have of you.

    I use to think, newspapers, radio, tv have all been using their medium to try and sell us thing, so the internet isn't isn't doing anything new. But their use of AI to track us, addict us and manipulate our perceptions is a different, much more powerful beast.

  26. #26

    Thread Starter
    Super Moderator dday9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    South Louisiana
    Posts
    10,598

    Re: Libertarian Case Against Regulations of Social Media Companies

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    To my knowledge, that last time it was tried in any meaningful way was after the French revolution and it failed for both of these reasons.
    There was a brief period of political Anarchy in Somalia when there was no central government and the warlords essentially lost the will to fight one another and so it came down to localized ruling factions.

    By every metric the quality of living was increased during that time at a greater pace than the previous n years when there was a centralized government.

    However, American interventionism in the country resulted in an American backed government being propped up and since then the whole countries been a real -you know what- show.
    "Code is like humor. When you have to explain it, itís bad." - Cory House
    VbLessons | Code Tags | Sword of Fury - Jameram

  27. #27
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Modesto, Ca.
    Posts
    4,796

    Re: Libertarian Case Against Regulations of Social Media Companies

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    If you think that, it's working...
    No, minimal. Even if it is working. I think my definition of minimal is different than most people.

    A MAJOR effect on my life is my shoulder being wore out from 44yrs of over use, which is threating my ability to live independently. My life revolve around maintaining my independence. I don't think social media has a major effect on that. At my age, anything farther than 5yrs away isn't a major concern to me personally. But I do worry about the future for my kid/grandkids/great grandkids ...., I do think it is harming people and society.

    My exposure to social media is minimal, I do have a FB account but rarely post, I'm a member of one group, it's a spinal cord injury support group.

    I'm sure social media has some effect on me, because it has an effect on society but I wouldn't say it has had a major effect on my life so far.


    Edit: lol, I guess I should have included VBF as social media. I do spend a significant amount of time on this site. But other than the fact I spend time here that could be used on other more productive things, I don't see any major effect on my life from using VBF. I've been finding ways to avoid being productive long before I started using the internet.
    Last edited by wes4dbt; Oct 28th, 2021 at 04:29 PM.

  28. #28
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Modesto, Ca.
    Posts
    4,796

    Re: Libertarian Case Against Regulations of Social Media Companies

    There was a brief period of political Anarchy in Somalia when there was no central government and the warlords essentially lost the will to fight one another and so it came down to localized ruling factions.
    It's nice when it works. But I don't see much from past history that indicates that the people in charge, whether a large or small group of people, will do what's in the best interest of others. Power, greed and control almost always seems to infect those in charge.
    Last edited by wes4dbt; Oct 28th, 2021 at 01:01 PM.

  29. #29
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
    Posts
    7,730

    Re: Libertarian Case Against Regulations of Social Media Companies

    There was a brief period of political Anarchy in Somalia
    I hadn't considered that but, yeah, I guess that qualifies.

    I think anarchy can work in the short term but doesn't last long. In the case of Somalia, it ultimately failed for the first reason I identified above - a more organised and powerful external actor (the US) was able to impose it's own interests. For this reason I've heard some anarchists advocate for a world wide anarchistic movement (come to think of it, that's what the French were trying to do after the revolution) but that's hard because it would require either a simultaneous world-wide political shift or a localised one that could then be exported in the face of more organised vested powers.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  30. #30
    Superbly Moderated NeedSomeAnswers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Manchester uk
    Posts
    2,653

    Re: Libertarian Case Against Regulations of Social Media Companies

    I have seen a strong push, both from the right and the left, across the world to regulate social media.
    The other is, as already mentioned, to continue to criticize these companies to put pressure on them so that they do what the market wants.
    Market pressure only works when you have competition and Facebook, Google etc are so damn big they dont have any. If you have functioning markets then there would be more of an argument in favour of this, but these companies have been allowed to buy up pretty much all the competition.

    Self regulation has failed spectacularly, which is why actual regulation is pretty much inevitable now.

    Facebook has been shown to actively put profits ahead of harmful practices which is why we are where we are. I personally have little faith in businesses and markets self regulating where profits are concerned. You only have to look at the example of banks and the sub prime mortgage scandal that caused the 2008 banking crash to see that businesses are geared to put profits first, and the morality of the actions that are making the profit dont even come into it. If its legal even if its shady then its ok.
    Please Mark your Thread "Resolved", if the query is solved & Rate those who have helped you



  31. #31
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Posts
    3,609

    Re: Libertarian Case Against Regulations of Social Media Companies

    Facebook has been shown to actively put profits ahead of harmful practices which is why we are where we are.
    I see some irony and blatant hypocrisy on how Fox news covered the news of Facebook allowing harmful and divisive content just to make money. Deliberately pitting people against each other for capital gain. They have been doing that all along about eight years before Facebook was founded. That is like Idi Amin calling someone a bad person.

    Note:
    Idi Amin Dada Oumee was a Ugandan military officer who served as the third president of Uganda from 1971 to 1979 and de facto military dictator. He is considered one of the most brutal despots in world history.
    Please remember next time...elections matter!

  32. #32
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Modesto, Ca.
    Posts
    4,796

    Re: Libertarian Case Against Regulations of Social Media Companies

    Self regulation has failed spectacularly, which is why actual regulation is pretty much inevitable now
    It's hard to believe we keep trying that. lol

    But we do, it was a major contributor in the Boeing 737 Max disasters.

    I'm not sure how we can regulate social media effectively. AI can't distinguish truth in many cases. Sure it knows 2 + 2 is 4 but most things on social media aren't that obvious.

  33. #33
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    36,735

    Re: Libertarian Case Against Regulations of Social Media Companies

    I thought it was the 787, but when I looked, you were right. I guess I was just expecting inflation.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  34. #34
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
    Posts
    7,730

    Re: Libertarian Case Against Regulations of Social Media Companies

    That would be a dirigible.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  



Click Here to Expand Forum to Full Width