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Thread: Windows 11 is available to some now

  1. #1

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    Windows 11 is available to some now

    Check out the link.

    https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-a...skip-the-wait/

    Personally I'm going to wait until it is in a "regular" update.
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    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: Windows 11 is available to some now

    I got it on my desktop system a bit early, as that is enrolled in the Insider Release Preview channel. I was going to leave my work Surface to get it whenever but decided to use the Windows Installation Assistant to force it, because it was getting a little annoying having different OSes on different systems. Personally, I like it. If you don't move the Task Bar or use the Start Menu a lot for pinned apps then I think that you'll like it too, as it's just cleaner than Windows 10 overall. The fact that you can't move the Task Bar and that the Start Menu is relatively inflexible are the most common complaints.

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    Re: Windows 11 is available to some now

    I'm going to wait until hell freezes over.
    By the power invested in me, all the threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones - no arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign.

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    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Windows 11 is available to some now

    What if it came in brass?
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    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: Windows 11 is available to some now

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    I'm going to wait until hell freezes over.
    Why's that? Sounds a lot like "I hate Microsoft and I'm going to refuse to upgrade on principle".

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    Re: Windows 11 is available to some now

    I have upgraded last week to Windows 11, and no problems.
    I even now run VB6 IDE without any compatibility to XP or Vista (just as admin).

    The only thing annoying is the new start menu. You don't have anymore the pinned (or last opened) files/project on shortcuts in the start menu (I use them a lot).
    So I installed Open Shell to have them back

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    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: Windows 11 is available to some now

    Quote Originally Posted by Thierry69 View Post
    The only thing annoying is the new start menu. You don't have anymore the pinned (or last opened) files/project on shortcuts in the start menu (I use them a lot).
    So I installed Open Shell to have them back
    The Start Menu is not a show-stopper for me but I would like it to be a bit more functional. I don't think there's much doubt that that is the most common issue people have with Windows 11. I'd be surprised if Microsoft didn't add functionality to it fairly soon but I'm curious to know whether what they have now is really what they wanted or whether they just chose to omit certain features initially for a specific reason. Unfortunately, they're unlikely to ever admit that they tried for something more but just couldn't get it to work in time.

    I've taken a quick peek at Start11 but not Open Shell, so I might check it out.

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    Administrator Steve R Jones's Avatar
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    Re: Windows 11 is available to some now

    Borrowed from a friend on another site:

    How to change the Windows 11 Start Menu settings:

    https://www.techrepublic.com/article...11-start-menu/


    Start11 from StarDock is available:

    https://www.techrepublic.com/article...ocks-start-11/


    See the link below for another alternative:

    https://discussions.virtualdr.com/sh...sic-Shell-fork
    "I have been wanting to grow my own food but I can not find any bacon seeds."

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    Re: Windows 11 is available to some now

    One odd thing that makes me sure that changes/improvements will come to the Start Menu is that you get a jump list when right-clicking an app in the All Apps list but, if you then pin that app to the Start Menu, right-clicking the pinned app doesn't produce a jump list. That's a pretty major oversight, in my opinion. I don't use jump lists all that much but do sometimes for Word and Excel but I'm sure there are people who do so a lot.

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    Re: Windows 11 is available to some now

    I'm not sure why this rearranging of the deck chairs was necessary. Moving and hiding a lot of settings and options yet again is frustrating. But I suppose Microsoft needed to do its part to sell new PCs, and re-dollying the user interface again is a proven strategy for drawing in the rubes.

    It's a moot point for me right now, since it doesn't support my main PCs.

    However as I replace them one by one in the future... a move to Windows 8.2, er, 9, er 11 is probably inevitable. Moving slowly may be just as well, since waiting a year to let it mature probably isn't a bad thing.

    To prepare I'll probably wait for the first big round of patches and then install it on a mini-PC that is only used for program testing. That gives me time to figure out where things have been hidden away and get used to the changes before I have to depend on it for regular usage.

    Resistance Is Futile.

    Hey, we might get lucky and find that in a year they ditch it just like the Windows 8.x disaster and produce a Windows 12 that addresses the bigger problems. I don't have a lot of hope though, they still trying to push Metro on developers, rendering what was once MSDN nearly useless.

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    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: Windows 11 is available to some now

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Moving and hiding a lot of settings and options yet again is frustrating.
    Do you have any specific examples, based on your extensive experience with Windows 11? The grouping/categorisation of settings hasn't really changed much at all from Windows 10, as far as I've noticed, but the new Settings app makes accessing various settings a fair bit easier. My only gripe with settings is the inability to pin them, but that's more about the Start Menu than the Settings app?

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    Re: Windows 11 is available to some now

    I admit that I am going by "reviews" of 11, and they might well be overstating things or even making crap up.

    But it isn't available to me now anyway, and I see no problems with waiting until they've had a chance to patch some of the early bugs. Who knows? We might get lucky and see a reversal of some of the UI change decisions.

    Windows 10 brought along a lot of improvements over time, and it is possible that 11 will as well. But so far there doesn't seem to be anything compelling about it at all, and denying that it moved stuff around and hid things is pointless.

    But perhaps you have a list of the benefits: Performance improvements? Better compatibility? New device support? Stability? New features for Win32 developers?

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    Re: Windows 11 is available to some now

    On my side, I found Win 11 fastest and more realible witn VB6 app and VB6 IDE than Windows 10

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    Re: Windows 11 is available to some now

    I admit that I am going by "reviews" of 11, and they might well be overstating things or even making crap up.
    At least we are past you denying it will ever ship
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    Re: Windows 11 is available to some now

    I really did expect it to turn out to be a gag.

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    Re: Windows 11 is available to some now

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    denying that it moved stuff around and hid things is pointless.
    Some stuff has been moved around, for sure. As far as settings go, which is what you specifically referred to, I'd say that they did so for the better. As for having hidden things, telling me that it's pointless denying it when you haven't even used the OS is rather rich.
    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    But perhaps you have a list of the benefits
    So to deflect from the fact that you made claims based on your existing bias and not on any actual experience, you're asking me to back up claims that I never made? I'll get right on that. Personally, I never expected Windows 11 to be revolutionary so I'm not surprised that it isn't. There's likely subtle benefits that I'm not even aware of but my main concern is that, with a couple of notable exceptions, I find that it feels more polished and consistent than Windows 10 did and is generally more usable. That's a win, as far as I'm concerned.

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    Re: Windows 11 is available to some now

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    I really did expect it to turn out to be a gag.
    The yokes on you
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    Re: Windows 11 is available to some now

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    Why's that? Sounds a lot like "I hate Microsoft and I'm going to refuse to upgrade on principle".
    No. However, I do hate Windows 8, 10 and 11, specifically the UI and despite the jury being still out on 11 and for the moment "I'm going to refuse to upgrade on principle". It is a decision made solely on the UI but that's me as I'm - "that sort of person".

    My path has been laid out for a while and as soon as my VB6 projects (developed exclusively on VB6 and Win7) are completed I intend to migrate away from Windows to an o/s that I have more ability to configure and customise, ie. probably KDE/Ubuntu and ReactOS. Hoping for Kubuntu and praying for ReactOS. Windows 10 and 11 are only testing grounds for me, so I will have one of each but solely for that function alone and I am hoping the two will be on the same device as mere virtual instances but not for day to day usage.
    By the power invested in me, all the threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones - no arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign.

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    Re: Windows 11 is available to some now

    Hoping for Kubuntu and praying for ReactOS
    How's the job market for those?
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    Re: Windows 11 is available to some now

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    No. However, I do hate Windows 8, 10 and 11, specifically the UI and despite the jury being still out on 11 and for the moment "I'm going to refuse to upgrade on principle". It is a decision made solely on the UI but that's me as I'm - "that sort of person".

    My path has been laid out for a while and as soon as my VB6 projects (developed exclusively on VB6 and Win7) are completed I intend to migrate away from Windows to an o/s that I have more ability to configure and customise, ie. probably KDE/Ubuntu and ReactOS. Hoping for Kubuntu and praying for ReactOS. Windows 10 and 11 are only testing grounds for me, so I will have one of each but solely for that function alone and I am hoping the two will be on the same device as mere virtual instances but not for day to day usage.
    Or you could happily run Windows 11 and have Ubuntu with WSL and use both windows and linux together...

  21. #21
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    Re: Windows 11 is available to some now

    From a previous thread:
    So let's sum up on what's going on.
    After the cleaver stupidity on locking almost every PC over 5 years old:
    Windows 11 WILL Run on Old PCs After All
    And then:
    Microsoft is threatening to withhold Windows 11 updates "if your CPU is old"
    https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/t...is-old.286100/
    and then:
    Microsoft wants to scare those who want to install Windows 11 on an incompatible PC
    and then:
    Microsoft faces major backlash after deleting Windows 11 bashing comments
    https://windowsreport.com/windows-11...ments-scandal/

    So I'm curious, does my i5-3470 2012 Work PC cpu support W11 or have updates? Since there is no tool on MS site and they redirect to you an access page that says that, you need to be a member of the Windows Insider program to access it(once and idiot...). If I want to give my good money on a w11 version, since a company needs cals, will it run it? Or there is an option for free company's windows 7 PC'S?
    Will I be able to rollback my precious data of the company?Should I gamble?
    I mean probably an admin will need to install it on a PC in 5 years so...
    .

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    Re: Windows 11 is available to some now

    Quote Originally Posted by sapator View Post
    From a previous thread:
    So let's sum up on what's going on.
    After the cleaver stupidity on locking almost every PC over 5 years old:
    Windows 11 WILL Run on Old PCs After All
    And then:
    Microsoft is threatening to withhold Windows 11 updates "if your CPU is old"
    https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/t...is-old.286100/
    and then:
    Microsoft wants to scare those who want to install Windows 11 on an incompatible PC
    and then:
    Microsoft faces major backlash after deleting Windows 11 bashing comments
    https://windowsreport.com/windows-11...ments-scandal/

    So I'm curious, does my i5-3470 2012 Work PC cpu support W11 or have updates? Since there is no tool on MS site and they redirect to you an access page that says that, you need to be a member of the Windows Insider program to access it(once and idiot...). If I want to give my good money on a w11 version, since a company needs cals, will it run it? Or there is an option for free company's windows 7 PC'S?
    Will I be able to rollback my precious data of the company?Should I gamble?
    I mean probably an admin will need to install it on a PC in 5 years so...
    https://github.com/rcmaehl/WhyNotWin11 is probably the best way to check compatibility at the moment.

  23. #23
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    Re: Windows 11 is available to some now

    Well, it means that it isn't really out, yet. Yeah, they have an early adopter program, but with MS, I'm not sure that it pays to be early unless you have a specific reason to. It will show up in due time, and there isn't much reason to rush ahead, according to everybody here. There isn't a world changing feature, so being patient works out just fine.

    There are two features that I think are important for Win11, and which most people won't really care about. The first is better security. Ideally, nobody will even notice this, but that's what you WANT out of security. I just wrote a response to uncle about WinXP. Nobody should still be on that platform. The security holes are too severe, and unpatchable, but at the time, it was a good OS. The simple fact is that there are more people probing for security holes, and doing more damage when they find them. Just take a look at Hack The Box.

    Each subsequent OS was more secure than the last, but Win11 takes it to a different level with a hardware level security...if you have it, which we all will, eventually. What will this do? Not completely protect us, that's for sure, because breaking through security isn't just a kids game anymore. It's very lucrative, so security will have to keep increasing because the threats will keep increasing. Win11 seems to be more about that than anything else.

    The second big point will be for people who use tablet-style Windows devices, which will work better in tablet mode than they did before. I haven't installed Win11 yet, so all I remember is that I read a few things that led me to that conclusion. I don't use my Surface devices in tablet mode, or at least not very much, but I could see where they were going, and it looked good. Will that prompt me to use my Surface Pros in tablet mode more? Probably not....but maybe.

    So, these changes are addressing two of the largest trends current these days: Security and mobile. Makes sense to me.
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    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: Windows 11 is available to some now

    It's not Earth-shattering but one feature that I definitely like is the new multi-tasking functionality. In Windows 10, I used to use the Windows+Left and Windows+Right key combinations to dock two windows side by side. In Windows 11, you can hover over the Maximise/Restore button of a window and get a number of multi-window layouts to choose from and where within that to place the current window. You can then add other windows to the same group. The additional layouts are helpful but you also get to treat the group as a group, i.e. when you hover over a member of a group in the Task Bar, one of the previews that pops up will be the group and you can display them together, rather than having to click each one to bring them to the front.

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    Super Moderator dday9's Avatar
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    Re: Windows 11 is available to some now

    When I saw the commercials, I honestly thought it was an ad for Mac at first. I'm excited to try it out once I get opportunity.
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    Re: Windows 11 is available to some now

    Come on, even the most die-hard pro-Microsoft pundits agree it is only about trying to sell new PCs. Period.

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    Re: Windows 11 is available to some now

    I don't really see what's wrong with that. I'm just excited to try out the new operating system.
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    Re: Windows 11 is available to some now

    Whenever I mention w11 on the company the admins are giving me the evil eye and one word...Beta.
    I think some laptops crashed and they got furious but as I don't want to spread misinformation I should have to ask them if I remember it.
    I can't hold it in tho and I would paraphrase dday (hope you don't mind): I'm just excited to try to crash my computer!
    .

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    Re: Windows 11 is available to some now

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Come on, even the most die-hard pro-Microsoft pundits agree it is only about trying to sell new PCs. Period.
    I disagree. From what I've seen, I think the real reason is that they wanted to shift people onto a hardware platform that would allow for some new kinds of security. After all, one of the core requirements of Win11 is the TPM chip. I can't remember a time when a new OS from MS had a minimum hardware requirement that was a direct security chip.

    Sure, security is a moving target, but this steps things up a bit. It introduces a higher floor for hardware security, which can then be built on.

    I expect that the rest is mostly just window dressing.
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  30. #30
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    Re: Windows 11 is available to some now

    So I am to assume that now they base their security to a chip from another vendor? I mean sure, I can believe that since it's MS.
    At least they bothered to do a typical firewall and a defender before. I could not imagine what will happen if that chip security breaks and I'm not sure how easy a hardware glitch can be patched.
    .

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    Re: Windows 11 is available to some now

    Everything they have done is based on chips from other vendors. MS doesn't make CPUs, graphics cards, or anything else like that, so they have always been based on others chips. Nothing surprising there.

    As for how easy it is to patch a hardware glitch, the answer used to be, "very hard", but I'm not sure that's the case anymore. I haven't done a manual BIOS update since the 90s, and that's not because BIOS chips became flawless.
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    Re: Windows 11 is available to some now

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    No. However, I do hate Windows 8, 10 and 11, specifically the UI and despite the jury being still out on 11 and for the moment "I'm going to refuse to upgrade on principle". It is a decision made solely on the UI but that's me as I'm - "that sort of person".

    My path has been laid out for a while and as soon as my VB6 projects (developed exclusively on VB6 and Win7) are completed I intend to migrate away from Windows to an o/s that I have more ability to configure and customise, ie. probably KDE/Ubuntu and ReactOS. Hoping for Kubuntu and praying for ReactOS. Windows 10 and 11 are only testing grounds for me, so I will have one of each but solely for that function alone and I am hoping the two will be on the same device as mere virtual instances but not for day to day usage.
    Man, you really like doing things the hard way don't you I was kinda like this once. I matured and realized that the only one I was hurting was myself. Historically, I always took a long long time to migrate to a new Windows and each and every time, it has been proven to be unwise. I took too long to move from VB6 too and that was one of the worst decisions I ever made.

    Point I'm making is that this "rebel" attitude doesn't work without strong public support for your position. Meaning, if for example a new Windows comes out and everyone but you is please with it, you're going to be in for a lot of pain. However, if the public isn't please with it also, they this has great potential to actually affect some kind of change. Being a lone rebel in IT doesn't work. I've done it all my life and never once did it bear any fruit. Moving with the crowd is almost always the far better decision.
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  33. #33
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    Re: Windows 11 is available to some now

    https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/6/22...tats-analytics

    I'm not saying that it's like VB6 but until now everything seems to work just fine with w7. AGAIN, not saying that you should not move forward. I have a w10 laptop for...Is it 2 years now? Every time I use it I feel a knot in my stomach but I won't downgrade it to w7 but I have a w7 desktop that it may be older but it's my main PC and I'm extremely happy with it and I will not upgrade it. Eventually when I get a new PC I will be spoon fed w11. That does not mean that I wont complain about it but it wouldn't be a thing I can do...Hmmm except ...W7 installation.......
    Also I've constantly hearing from our admins , Linux this Linux that and that it simulates windows just fine or you can have a dual boot. I admit it seems very boring to do that but if we get in a lock down again and I have a new PC I might try it.
    .

  34. #34
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    Re: Windows 11 is available to some now

    I think we have been here before.

    The biggest problem that both Windows Me and 2000 had was that so many people had PCs without adequate hardware and proper drivers. Eventually when XP came out most of the really old hardware had been replaced and Microsoft had more hardware drivers to bundle into the installation media.

    Then Vista came out, and inadequate hardware and lack of drivers became a problem once more.

    Windows 7 came out, moved a few deckchairs, and the old hardware and lousy drivers issues had been addressed with time. Again.

    Then Windows 8.x, .y, and .z came along and it was just awful so the market rejected it.

    That was largely remedied in Windows 10, and people were able to get over their objections.


    So now we have 11 with its explicit new hardware requirements for the first time since Win32 arrived. Sure, it's objectively awful, but not nearly to the extent of the Win8/Metro fiasco. And it's still the same codebase as Windows 10 according to pundits. So I don't think it is another Windows 8 but more like a Windows Me was to the Win9x product family.

    I can't imagine any reversing of course though, not a "Windows 12" addressing concerns like Windows 10 did. It is probably something we can't skip and that we'll just have to live with eventually. For most people that won't happen until it is time to replace old PCs.

    Most people just live with the OS they were given on a machine anyway, whether shipped by the OEM or an earlier version slapped on there by box jockeys to avoid learning anything new.

  35. #35
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Windows 11 is available to some now

    I swore to all the Gods I was staying in Windows 7 and never moving to Windows 10. I had a persistent problem for years with my Bluetooth dongle where whenever I installed a new piece of Bluetooth hardware like a pair of headphones, my PC would blue screen when installing it. Installing a new piece of Bluetooth hardware was always a pain. I would have to endure constant restarts while fiddling with different settings until it worked. I had grown accustomed to it for years. Until one day I did a re-install and was trying to install my headphones. This time around, the blue screens were incredibly persistent. I usually got them to work inside of 4 hours but this time it went over night. I got up the next day and decided that I had enough. I had tried everything over the years to solve this problem and it was time for something drastic. I installed Windows 10 for the first time. The Bluetooth headphones installed in about a minute with no problems. The installation of Bluetooth devices hasn't since given me a single headache. No blue screens. Nothing but peace. Haven't looked back since.

    This is one of the pains of being a rebel I mentioned in my earlier post. The problem in this case was that Microsoft no longer cared about Windows 7 so there was no way in hell they were going to fix a problem with one of their Bluetooth drivers. Moving to Windows 10 was the right choice since that was where all their attention was focused. It would have all the latest fixes and drivers.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

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    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

  36. #36
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Windows 11 is available to some now

    Quote Originally Posted by sapator View Post
    Also I've constantly hearing from our admins , Linux this Linux that and that it simulates windows just fine or you can have a dual boot.
    I like Ubuntu but I'm not crazy enough to think it could ever replace Windows as my main OS. I find Linux to be a good companion to Windows when it's being hosted in Hyper-V. I could see myself using Linux to host something like a database or webserver. The Linux ecosystem is really strong in this domain but as a user desktop? Not a chance. Nothing beats Windows as far as I'm concerned when it comes to average day to day use.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

  37. #37
    Sinecure devotee
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    Re: Windows 11 is available to some now

    Quote Originally Posted by sapator View Post
    So I am to assume that now they base their security to a chip from another vendor? I mean sure, I can believe that since it's MS.
    At least they bothered to do a typical firewall and a defender before. I could not imagine what will happen if that chip security breaks and I'm not sure how easy a hardware glitch can be patched.
    The TPM chip isn't all that new. You mentioned you have a laptop that is a couple of years old and I would expect that it already has the chip onboard. I checked a four year old and five year old laptop and they both report the TPM chip present and enabled. Of course, I think the processor in both of those machines are too old to support the instructions they also want available for other security reasons, but the TPM chips have been a standard available component for awhile now.

    The desktop machines are more likely not not have the small circuit board pre-installed, but the socket should have been on the motherboards for years as well. And since Win 11 will require it, I expect it will be pre-installed by default even on Desktop systems.

    And while Windows 11 may be the first OS to require it, it isn't the first time that the chip has been required. For most government work, and especially in classified work places, they have required that Windows 10 be installed for Windows machine, and that the TPM circuit board be installed and enabled and the Operating System updated to use the chip for the Windows machines for some years now. And even the Linux based machines in those labs have to utilize the TPM capability, I believe.
    "Anyone can do any amount of work, provided it isn't the work he is supposed to be doing at that moment" Robert Benchley, 1930

  38. #38
    Super Moderator dday9's Avatar
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    Re: Windows 11 is available to some now

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    I could see myself using Linux to host something like a database or webserver.
    I can tell you from experience that hosting a web server that isn't ASP (classic or .NET) is incredibly painful. I ran into so many issues trying to host a PHP web server to an on-prem Windows Server maching that uses IIS and I gave up (on a test) to host a GoLang web server using IIS because I got so frustrated. Hosting them on Linux was smooth.

    However, I've rarely run into issues hosting an ASP.NET web server on IIS.

    It all goes back to "the right tool for the right job" discussion that seems to always crop up.
    "Code is like humor. When you have to explain it, itís bad." - Cory House
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  39. #39
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Windows 11 is available to some now

    I don't worry about it. I understood Win 8 when it came out, I understand Win10, and I think I understand Win11. When they get here, they get here.

    All that MS is doing is trying to make an OS that will work well across the broadest set of current and expected platforms. Win7, and all prior, weren't good for tablets, which were looking like more of a thing when Win8 was created, but that was a novel approach, and novel approaches tend to have some growing pains. Win10 was fixing some of the Win8 growing pains, but was largely about moving to a subscription model, which was largely driven because people weren't updating their OSes, and when they inevitably got hacked, it was MS that was getting blamed. With Win10, you didn't get much of a choice (or none at all) about updates. Of course, now people complain about the updates, as well.

    Win11 is more of the same. There are two significant differences, one is the hardware change, the other won't impact a lot of people, since it is clearly focused on touch-driven devices like the Surface Pro. For those that have devices like that, it will be a benefit, for the rest, they won't notice it.

    Whatever.
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  40. #40
    King of sapila
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    Re: Windows 11 is available to some now

    My issue is why they are using that chip. They really care for our security? I mean come on. I would suspect and with all the fuss about it to be just a commercial gimmick for better or for worse that will probably be pulled aside or "patched" while MS is whistling in the corner.
    Other than that I can't express an opinion till I see them in use. And I don't mean the beta. I can't imagine anyone trusting a beta by microsoft but hey...
    .

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