The $5,000 electric car-5G battle vs. new energy vehicle battle

[Shaggy Hiker]

Inception?

[sapator]

Not sure.
I think is the movie that the city curls? I only watched it once as it's crappy, for me.
Maybe it was that one but I'm not watching it again to make sure.

[Shaggy Hiker]

I've only watched it once, too, but I do think it's the one where the city curls. I don't remember it being all that memorable from a plot perspective.

[dilettante]

I've only watched it once, too, but I do think it's the one where the city curls. I don't remember it being all that memorable from a plot perspective.

Yeah, it seemed like somebody had a visual effect and shopped around for some kind of story to wrap that around.

[Shaggy Hiker]

When CGI was kind of new, every movie could feature their "cool new effect". By now, there is nothing that should surprise anybody. You have to be a serious camera operator insider to fully appreciate any new move, and you can never rule out CGI. I suppose it's too much to ask that movies stop trying to top the spectacle of other movies. At this point, that can't be done. More special stunts are meaningless, because it is probably just green screen work. More special effects are also meaningless. Perhaps we could get back to plot?

[sapator]

Consider "plot" as gameplay on old games (for a discussion that we previous had with lobsters that went sideways).
Free Niya!

[Shaggy Hiker]

Gameplay on old games was rubbish. It was way too restrictive and very few games got logic right if that was even part of the game. Nostalgia just isn't what it used to be.

[sapator]

Gameplay on old games was rubbish

Good one.
Just 2 words.
Tetris, Pac-Man, for the very known ones.
Nighty night.

Edit: I'll allow a pun that these are 3 words...

[dilettante]

Things are already getting bad even with EV adoption under 5%.

This might be a time for consumer-owned utilities again, though the opposition comes not only from Wall Street and established power generation corporations, but also the politicians they have in their pockets.



The EV lobby is fond of making statements like this:

Battery electric vehicles make up 6.7% of light-duty vehicles sold in the U.S. When you add hybrid and plug-in hybrid vehicles, EVs comprise 16% of light-duty vehicles sold.

That's a distortion though, fake news. While the figures may not overestimate reality, they only reflect new vehicles sales and say nothing about the fraction of vehicles on the road today that are EVs and PHEVs, and HEVs should not be included there since they don't represent any grid load.

That 16% appears to drop to more like maybe 12% if you hold your mouth right.


What it means is that actual EV + PHEV vehicle population is probably a lot closer to 3% at best. And yet we already see vehicles being stranded and fist fights breaking out at public charging stations, while blackouts and power usage restrictions are already taking place.

The goals are too optimistic and power sourcing too fragile. And even at that it hangs by a thread of government subsidies and cost-shifting onto the back of conventional vehicle buyers.

Every time you turn around it looks like a giant welfare program for the rich.

[sapator]

By adopting the assumption that oil giants do no really won't the well being of humanity (almost all the wars are about oil) but just to make money and by establishing that EV is actually a part of the energy cycle and oil companies been out of business from EV cars, I would not really worry as those same companies are not worrying right now. The minute they start to worry then possibly a water driver engine would have been discovered. This looks cool but it's not simple water https://www.hyperion.inc/
Also think about the planes, won't anyone think about the planes!?

[Shaggy Hiker]

Also think about the planes, won't anyone think about the planes!?

No, they go over my head.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Things are already getting bad even with EV adoption under 5%.

This might be a time for consumer-owned utilities again, though the opposition comes not only from Wall Street and established power generation corporations, but also the politicians they have in their pockets.



The EV lobby is fond of making statements like this:



That's a distortion though, fake news. While the figures may not overestimate reality, they only reflect new vehicles sales and say nothing about the fraction of vehicles on the road today that are EVs and PHEVs, and HEVs should not be included there since they don't represent any grid load.

That 16% appears to drop to more like maybe 12% if you hold your mouth right.


What it means is that actual EV + PHEV vehicle population is probably a lot closer to 3% at best. And yet we already see vehicles being stranded and fist fights breaking out at public charging stations, while blackouts and power usage restrictions are already taking place.

The goals are too optimistic and power sourcing too fragile. And even at that it hangs by a thread of government subsidies and cost-shifting onto the back of conventional vehicle buyers.

Every time you turn around it looks like a giant welfare program for the rich.

So what do you propose? That no EVs be sold until there is enough infrastructure out there to support a total change over? That we simply give up with any attempt to get off of fossil fuels? Or that we simply give up whenever a problem proves to be difficult/time consuming?

[sapator]

Fighting a non win battle is pointless. EV was a scam to begin with.

[techgnome]

No, they go over my head.

Except in South Carolina where we recently put $80M in planes into a county out here...
https://www.live5news.com/2023/09/22...e-airplane-is/

Context - over the weekend, someone flyiong an F-35 around Charleston (they were coming from down south of here headed north) when they experience "an incident" and the pilot ejected. Because the jet was a stealth fighter, it went into dark mode at the moment of ejection... and then kept flying... it finally came down a couple counties north of here near a lake ... but for two days no one could find it. It's lead to all sorts of memes and jokes.

-tg

[Shaggy Hiker]

I'd heard about that one, but never got the whole story.

[dilettante]

I think the aggressive schedule needs to be altered to something that does not require subsidies and other expenses levied on the many to ease the lives of the few. So far the EV mandates amount to the worst regressive taxation in history.

EVs are clearly not affordable or sustainable for everyone. Once the automakers have no normal cars to mark up they won't have that propping EV production. If numbers of EVs sold rises the government subsidies dry up rapidly.

That doesn't even begin to address production and transmission of the additional electricity required.


So back up and discourage oversized overweight vehicles. Produce more reasonably sized HEVs that use standardized and modular batteries, decreasing replacement costs and increasing rebuild/recyclability and making a used car market for them viable. Phase out PHEVs, which are the worst of both worlds. Produce more EVs for those dense cities where they fit in, but probably of a scale similar to the 1960s VW Beetle or Toyota Corolla.

For infrastructure rebuild, slow the roll but keep rolling. Grid updates are already necessary without the EV burden, and cleaner power production can go hand in hand with expansion.

I don't see why the current forced punitive process rewarding inequality makes any sense.

[xiaoyao]

In China, the main reason for the popularity of new energy vehicles is that electricity bills have not risen for more than 10 years. And oil prices are up 100%. It will continue to rise to 300%.

For example, eight years ago, China's Xiaomi mobile phone, the price only needs 300 US dollars, while Apple's mobile phone at that time costs 1,000 to 1,500 US dollars.
But now Xiaomi phones are going up to $700. Prices have gone up, Qualcomm cpus have gone up, but electricity prices in China have not gone up.

The price of gasoline is controlled by the capitalists, so the price will continue to rise. Eventually, more than half of China's households will buy electric cars.

[xiaoyao]

You can buy a small plane in the United States for just over $10,000. But when this product is sold in China, it becomes $150,000, and the annual maintenance and repair cost is much higher.
The other day, a man was parachuting or paragliding from a high altitude or an airplane, and he was about to descend to the ground, and he got caught in a high-voltage wire, and finally burned up in a big fire and went up in smoke in a second.

Who wants to go to heaven when you're only five seconds away from success?

Maybe in another 10 years, a lot of electric planes, gasoline planes will become as popular as cars.

[dilettante]

Things get scammier the more you look.

A lot of the EV wealth transfer programs (taxpayer subsidies) also use the vague term "electric mobility" to describe the loads of money being dumped into e-bike manufacturing. The imported ones are already a nightmare, why make any here? Well, a lot of the money goes to rental fleet operators.

These never benefit anyone outside of dense population centers, litter those places with rent-a-bikes crowding sidewalks or the now-denuded verge strips buffering sidewalks from the road, and have proven to be serious traffic hazards. Not to mention that these are becoming very prominent e-waste due to their short operating lives, high failure rate, impracticality of repair, and high rate of discard by the rare private owner.

[Shaggy Hiker]

I think the aggressive schedule needs to be altered to something that does not require subsidies and other expenses levied on the many to ease the lives of the few. So far the EV mandates amount to the worst regressive taxation in history.

Good points. Currently, we have no EV mandate, but that may not be true everywhere. What I see is nothing more than an encouragement, which is pretty thoroughly muted in this part of the country. Still, if there were some kind of enforced mandate, then that really would be a severely regressive tax. However, I don't think the aggressive schedule is unwarranted, nor are the subsidies. There are just too many benefits and too much inertia.

EVs are clearly not affordable or sustainable for everyone. Once the automakers have no normal cars to mark up they won't have that propping EV production. If numbers of EVs sold rises the government subsidies dry up rapidly.

Not affordable, certainly. As for sustainable, nothing currently available in the automotive realm really is. There's the status quo and change, both have serious issues. Still, what's going on with automakers is...weird. What we don't appear to have is anybody supplying the low end of the market. If all you have are high-end vehicles, then there is no incentive to create cheaper vehicles since there's no competition.

We've seen this before in the automobile industry. Low price, high reliability, Japanese cars started invading the country in the late 70s. At first, the domestics mostly complained, but eventually they improved the quality of their cars, too. Right now, we don't have any low cost models. The lower cost models are being phased out from all manufacturers, too. Subaru used to make the Legacy as a cheaper car, the Outback as the higher end car, and the Forrester as an SUV. Now, the Legacy is gone, the Outback is bigger than the Forester, and they're all loaded with features. This wasn't done by accident. Reporting showed that Subaru deliberately set their sights on providing higher market cars...and nobody has filled in the space left behind. The same, or similar, has happened across the industry.

That doesn't even begin to address production and transmission of the additional electricity required.

True, but people have been wringing their hands over this for a couple decades now, and it...may have gotten results. I've read numerous articles about how, "we'll need x number of new production of type T in the coming years, which is unlikely with past trends." This was always followed by past trends turning out not to be indicative of future moves. For that reason, I'm considerably more sanguine about these issues.

So back up and discourage oversized overweight vehicles. Produce more reasonably sized HEVs that use standardized and modular batteries, decreasing replacement costs and increasing rebuild/recyclability and making a used car market for them viable. Phase out PHEVs, which are the worst of both worlds. Produce more EVs for those dense cities where they fit in, but probably of a scale similar to the 1960s VW Beetle or Toyota Corolla.

I would support all of that, though I do think PHEVs fill a good intermediate position in the west.

For infrastructure rebuild, slow the roll but keep rolling. Grid updates are already necessary without the EV burden, and cleaner power production can go hand in hand with expansion.

I don't agree with slowing anything. I'd say it should be accelerated, even with the use of subsidies. A buddy of mine has an electric vehicle. Currently, driving across this sparsely populated state, which he has to do to visit family, requires a certain amount of route planning that wouldn't be true of gas vehicles. He's pushed the state parks to consider installing charging stations, and they appear to be doing so. Even if the cost per KWh is well above grid rates, it would make a big difference for him and for other early adopters. That's something of a win-win, at this point. The parks get more revenue, since they can reasonably charge 3-5 times their cost for the electricity (we have some of the cheapest electricity in the country), and drivers can shorten their routes as the gaps get filled in.

Of course, at some point the market will mature and that will change, but we're a mighty long way away from that now. Might be an entirely different story in five years, though. By then, perhaps I could go full electric.

I don't see why the current forced punitive process rewarding inequality makes any sense.

Market forces, mostly. Even in computers, early adopters pay through the nose. That rewarded inequality just as much, but we all benefitted in the long run.

[Shaggy Hiker]

You can buy a small plane in the United States for just over $10,000. But when this product is sold in China, it becomes $150,000, and the annual maintenance and repair cost is much higher.
The other day, a man was parachuting or paragliding from a high altitude or an airplane, and he was about to descend to the ground, and he got caught in a high-voltage wire, and finally burned up in a big fire and went up in smoke in a second.

Who wants to go to heaven when you're only five seconds away from success?

Maybe in another 10 years, a lot of electric planes, gasoline planes will become as popular as cars.

You can buy a plane in the US for just over $10,000??? If by "just over" you mean 40-90 thousand dollars over, then it appears you might be right. A quick glance at listing suggests that there are used planes that you can get for $50,000, but most are twice that or more. New planes tend to be over $100,000. Can't say anything about annual maintenance costs, though. They may well be higher in China.

Also, the price of oil is driven by global forces, since oil is sold on the global market. The price of electricity is necessarily a local market, at this time. That could change to some extent as long distance DC transmission lines are built, though.

[sapator]

OK so you are an EV and "environment protection" enthusiast.
Please let me know what kind of EV brand you drive and the measures you have taken to insure environmental blossom. P.E. you are a vegetarian and do not use oil or coil driver electricity.And of course you are not using any plane to go to far distances, ever.

[Shaggy Hiker]

OK so you are an EV and "environment protection" enthusiast.
Please let me know what kind of EV brand you drive and the measures you have taken to insure environmental blossom. P.E. you are a vegetarian and do not use oil or coil driver electricity.And of course you are not using any plane to go to far distances, ever.

Who are you talking to?

[dilettante]

Even in computers, early adopters pay through the nose. That rewarded inequality just as much, but we all benefitted in the long run.

I'm scratching my head here. When were people taxed to subsidize computers for the rich? Or their non-computer devices marked up to make up for the losses incurred when the same manufacturers also made computers? Or deadlines set after which you could only buy computers?

Somehow your arguments feel like "Let them eat cake" or maybe that would be "chocolate ice cream" hmm?

I'm not playing holier than thou. When I bought an HEV in 2002 I had tax and manufacturer advantages given to me to make it possible. What I object to is that 20 years later this is still going on but at higher rates than ever. That seems a pretty clear indicator that the technology just isn't there. And that's before considering the grid and generation issues.

HEVs actually can be produced competitively. PHEVs cannot, let alone EVs which are an even bigger problem.

And once again, that's before considering the impact of charging on lower income people who rent or can't otherwise install home EV charging.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Are you saying that the tax breaks for some EVs (only those made in the US, so not mine) are essentially a tax shift? You could make that case, but it's weak. The mortgage interest deduction is a better case. In the case of the EV tax breaks, it's more a way to boost US manufacturing by trying to draw more manufacturing away from other countries. The older break, which was more general, was certainly intended to bolster adoption of EVs, and since none of them are all that cheap, then it could be seen as a gift to the rich, but it still wasn't intended as such. It was intended to bolster adoption by defraying the cost.

The only deadline that I'm aware of in the US is in CA. That could easily impact the country. On the other hand, politicians tend to respond to their constituency, as we've often covered.

The point about computers is that new systems are always priced to sell only to those with the money. This was even more dramatic a couple decades back, but is still the case for the cutting edge, especially in graphics cards. However, those prices always fall quite dramatically when the cutting edge is no longer so edgy.

I think you do have a pretty fair point, but I feel you have the wrong target. There are no new, low end, vehicles on sale by any manufacturer out there. I don't know what decisions were made to get here for most models, only for Subaru (and even then, I only know what was reported), where they deliberately shaved off the bottom end vehicles because they wanted to enhance their brand image.

That isn't being driven by the government, subsidies, or anything other than marketeers, as far as I can tell. The margins on trucks and SUVs have always been pretty fat in the US. Apparently, the manufacturers decided that putting more effort into those fat margins made more economic sense than devoting manufacturing space to low-margin vehicles.

The technology doesn't seem to be driving this, in my opinion. CA politicians aren't being punished for the choices they have made. Those kids in Montana recently won a lawsuit against the state for them slow rolling change. Most everybody knows we have to get off our addiction to oil or else the changes that come won't be pleasant. More people are waking up to that every day, too. Recent polls have shown that younger conservatives are on board with that.

That's what I've always said about politics in this country: One or two voices don't much matter. One or two tens of thousands of voices don't much matter. Once you're into the millions, though, we do shift, and when we do, some people end up losing out. This society has obliterated whole segments of the workforce without a second thought. Heck, without even a first thought. We do it by accident. One other feature is that a couple decades down the road, people are worried about whatever the new thing is. As for the current thing? That's just something they see in their textbooks...if they even read them.

[sapator]

Who are you talking to?

To people that allegedly support the environment and are pro EV but they don't own one and they do less to nothing to help the environment.
I personally could give out from the top of my head 4 thing I do to not support the environment aka climate change change BS (caution, climate change do exist but not from farting cows).
1)I do own a petrol car since I don't engulf the EV BS
2)I do not use cardboard straws for my coffee, since the Belgium report clearly states that they include cancer material
3)They send me an sms that my payment account at the mobile company has changed to electronic, without asking me. Immediately I used an automatic dial and turn my account to paper again.
4)I eat LOT AND LOT AND LOT OF Meat (OK I'll allow a trans comment since it does not apply)!

[Shaggy Hiker]

It's burping cows. The gas is coming out the front end, not the back.

[Shaggy Hiker]

What's the point with the paper bills? Not asking from an environmental perspective, but from an efficiency perspective. I signed up for auto-everything for all bills, because I have a tendency (and a desire) to disappear into the woods for weeks on end. I took every step I could to automate away everything I could. E-billing was kind of the low hanging fruit, in that regard.

The one bill that I still receive in paper format is my electric bill. That's...weird, mostly. I was getting that one electronic, then something happened and the company started sending paper again. It's paid automatically, so the bill just allows me to compare usage year to year, which didn't appear to be possible on their web site at one point. I should probably end that, but I've been trying to get an honest comparison for electric consumption increase since I am doing my commute on electric, now. I should see an increase, it's just that something weird has happened each month since I got the car such that no months really do compare.

[techgnome]

To people that allegedly support the environment and are pro EV but they don't own one and they do less to nothing to help the environment.
I personally could give out from the top of my head 4 thing I do to not support the environment aka climate change change BS (caution, climate change do exist but not from farting cows).
1)I do own a petrol car since I don't engulf the EV BS
2)I do not use cardboard straws for my coffee, since the Belgium report clearly states that they include cancer material
3)They send me an sms that my payment account at the mobile company has changed to electronic, without asking me. Immediately I used an automatic dial and turn my account to paper again.
4)I eat LOT AND LOT AND LOT OF Meat (OK I'll allow a trans comment since it does not apply)!

1) Same here... I feel like there's still things that have to happen ... ask me what though, and I couldn't tell you exactly. I'm still not sold on 100% electric vehicle.
2) Yuck... I don't use them because I can't stand them. They have a tendency to fall aprt before I'm done and there's something about the feel of wet paper on my teeth.... that.... eeeeech...no thanks.
3) I don't mind electronic billing, or online payments. We don't do auto pay, but we do electronic payments. They're often faster and cheaper than having to write a check. That's assuming we can remember where we last put the checkbook since we use it so infrequently. We've only bought checks once in the last 10 years, and that was only because we misplaed the first box and couldn't find it. Even my paystub comes electronically. I get an email with a link, I click, I download and put it into a folder for keeping. If I need a copy for something, I print it out. Unless I need to submit an electronic copy - did that last time we refinanced... all documents were uploaded electronically... easy as pie.
4) I love meat too... steak, tacos, burgers... chicken too...

[sapator]

Burping cows, good grunge band name.
A song will be, gasoline EV driver.
2 reasons I need paper bills.
1)Because they mandate me not to.
2)Because if I want to go to the bank to confirm my identity of an account or get a paper from some kind of public sector organization I need a prof of identity. Phone bill is a proof of identity.
And here is the fun part. They don't take e-bills. I have to either have a paper bill or contact the mobile vendor in order to do some mumbo jumbo (Fiendish Freddy forever!) and send you a printable version that IF you do not have a printer at home (I don't) you have to either find a copy shop of print it at work if they have a printer (we have 20, half with no ink ) . So I have a paper bill and that is it.

[sapator]

1) Same here... I feel like there's still things that have to happen ... ask me what though, and I couldn't tell you exactly. I'm still not sold on 100% electric vehicle.
2) Yuck... I don't use them because I can't stand them. They have a tendency to fall aprt before I'm done and there's something about the feel of wet paper on my teeth.... that.... eeeeech...no thanks.
3) I don't mind electronic billing, or online payments. We don't do auto pay, but we do electronic payments. They're often faster and cheaper than having to write a check. That's assuming we can remember where we last put the checkbook since we use it so infrequently. We've only bought checks once in the last 10 years, and that was only because we misplaed the first box and couldn't find it. Even my paystub comes electronically. I get an email with a link, I click, I download and put it into a folder for keeping. If I need a copy for something, I print it out. Unless I need to submit an electronic copy - did that last time we refinanced... all documents were uploaded electronically... easy as pie.
4) I love meat too... steak, tacos, burgers... chicken too...

Oh, you are a very bad sample of an eco man.
On 4) I first read steak,tomato, burger, chicken (tired) and I was like, tomato is vegetable....Or is it a fruit...Huhh?!
Fruitable.

[dilettante]

Are you saying the government policy isn't a factor and that we're going to hell in a handbasket through the operation of pure market forces?

That isn't true. Look at those monster trucks that have become so popular. That has its roots in a basket of tariffs under the "chicken tax" umbrella. Originally a response to hefty impediments to exporting chicken into Europe, it made trucks a product category with almost no competition. These grew bigger and the price tags rose yet rubes gobbled them up due to heavy promotion.

Now the EV losses under the "infrastructure" mandates are being recouped by phasing out low cost products and raising truck prices. Today a $65K sticker price and $1000/month payments are "normal" and the supply of alternative vehicles you can buy has dried up.

Little of this was "the market" and much of it lies at the feet of incompetent market interventions.

[techgnome]

Oh, you are a very bad sample of an eco man.
On 4) I first read steak,tomato, burger, chicken (tired) and I was like, tomato is vegetable....Or is it a fruit...Huhh?!
Fruitable.

Hey now, my mower is electric ... but only because I can't get the normal gas one working again. LEft the gas in it one winter... and it hasn't started since. I really need to take it somewhere and have someone who knows what they are doing look at it.


-tg

[sapator]

My mobile is an example of a mini EV with no wheels.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Are you saying the government policy isn't a factor and that we're going to hell in a handbasket through the operation of pure market forces?

Yes, pretty much.

That isn't true. Look at those monster trucks that have become so popular. That has its roots in a basket of tariffs under the "chicken tax" umbrella. Originally a response to hefty impediments to exporting chicken into Europe, it made trucks a product category with almost no competition. These grew bigger and the price tags rose yet rubes gobbled them up due to heavy promotion.

You contradicted yourself, but unintentionally. I think you didn't mean "so popular" as much as "so ubiquitous". I think you were right the first time. Those trucks ARE popular. The people who gobbled them up aren't rubes. They're people who wanted those trucks. Heck, they probably jack them up higher as soon as they can afford to. The Hummer was the worst rated vehicle on the road with the highest after purchase regret level for any retail vehicle, at one point....still sold like crazy, though.

Now the EV losses under the "infrastructure" mandates are being recouped by phasing out low cost products and raising truck prices. Today a $65K sticker price and $1000/month payments are "normal" and the supply of alternative vehicles you can buy has dried up.

That would be reasonable if the infrastructure mandate was a real mandate and came before the phase out of the low end vehicles. The phase out of low end Subaru's that I mentioned happened either during the Bush administration, or even at the end of the Clinton administration. Sure, there were cheaper cars for quite some time after that, but they were gone before Biden was elected.

Little of this was "the market" and much of it lies at the feet of incompetent market interventions.

Darn that Trump!!

[Shaggy Hiker]

Hey now, my mower is electric ... but only because I can't get the normal gas one working again. LEft the gas in it one winter... and it hasn't started since. I really need to take it somewhere and have someone who knows what they are doing look at it.


-tg

I have the same problem...coupled with the fact that you can't even give away a cheap gas mower. I now have three potentially working gas devices (two mowers and a roto tiller) that don't really work because the gas has become varnish...and one of them is covered in a white powder which shouldn't be examined too closely, lest somebody wonder why a mower is coated in fire suppressant powder.

There's supposed to be a local college with a class in small engine repair. I should see if they want a donation.

[wes4dbt]

Those trucks ARE popular. The people who gobbled them up aren't rubes. They're people who wanted those trucks. Heck, they probably jack them up higher as soon as they can afford to. The Hummer was the worst rated vehicle on the road with the highest after purchase regret level for any retail vehicle, at one point....still sold like crazy, though.

They certainly are popular and have been for a looong time. Well before EV's. But the most important thing is, you look cool driving one. lol

It is strange that the auto industry have dropped the low end models. I remember in @ 1972 wen Ford came out with the full size Maverick for $1,999. Lets not for get the Pinto and Vega. Still, there are some reasonably priced car. The new Eleantra is @ 24k. 20yrs ago I bought a new Honda Element for 20k so that not a big jump. Though a friend of mine just bought a new Honda CRV and it was 40k.

[dilettante]

That would be reasonable if the infrastructure mandate was a real mandate and came before the phase out of the low end vehicles. The phase out of low end Subaru's that I mentioned happened either during the Bush administration, or even at the end of the Clinton administration. Sure, there were cheaper cars for quite some time after that, but they were gone before Biden was elected.

You must not be watching the industry very closely. The mandate is completely real. It takes the form of cash transferred from taxpayers to OEMs that meet a set of guidelines (which are not entirely "built within the US"). Cash that is only available to them if they manufacture (and try to sell) their quota of EVs (determined by a complicated formula).

What happened in the 1980s isn't very relevant now. There have been low end Toyotas, Hondas, Fords, GMs, etc. for a long time now. Not to mention the Korean brands. The lack of "cheap" new car models and trims has taken place over just the last few years. The problem didn't really exist as recently as 2020.

These problems push down into the top-tier used car market as well. And from there the bottom tier of auto auctions feeding corner used car lots is suffering even worse right now. This not only hurts those dealers, but it really hits their customers. While I don't have a lot of sympathy or respect for those guys (who can be pretty predatory) they do fill a need and their customers don't have a lot of options besides "inheriting" family cars or buying directly from random stranger car owners.



And all of this is before EVs even make serious inroads into the used market. Can you imagine trying to buy an 8 year old Tesla from a corner lot? I expect them to be sold "as is" and the cost to keep them on the road safely is a big unknown aside from being rather high. Tires alone will break you. Those are heavy and dense vehicles that require special tires. Imagine one plowing into you in your normal car, let alone two colliding with each other.

[dilettante]

Perspective:

[Shaggy Hiker]

The mandate is completely real, but it's also too recent. The change started decades back, the mandate is only a couple years old. It's also not all that big. The tax credit is $7500. Yeah, that's not nothing, but for one thing it's a tax credit, and for another, if EVs go for 50K, it's probably not enough to totally move the needle.