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Thread: Extending VB6

  1. #41
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    Re: Extending VB6

    As I see it, it is all about the Educational System and marketing on the part of Microsoft and Apple to name two.

    Apple played the game of giving computers to school systems to try and get students familiar with using Apple,
    knowing that because of this students would most likely choose Apple over PC because of their familiarity with Apple.

    Microsoft does the same thing with languages. Giving away free or reduced cost educational editions and books of the latest language. This encourages and influences those making the decision to teach those languages. Microsoft wins because they've created a new product for sale. The education system wins because in addition to their current students, they may get new students who want to learn the new language. All at little cost to the educational system.

    As I recall there are about 2500 different languages. Most can get any job done --- including GUI.

    The key is keeping and attracting as much new talent as possible (this forum goes a long way in this regard -- THANK YOU) in VB to keep it going.
    Last edited by vb6forever; Oct 14th, 2021 at 08:53 PM.

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    Re: Extending VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    My suspicion is that Microsoft didn't want the support cost associated with high level languages compiling to native code. This was probably doubly true for Basic in particular, since it tends to attract a lot of untrained coders.
    Nope. That wasn't part of it. They felt that Java was a threat, .NET was a response to that threat, and they wanted to, "put all their wood behind one arrow." And, yeah, I have some insider information on that decision.
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  3. #43
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    Re: Extending VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by vb6forever View Post
    As I see it, it is all about the Educational System and marketing on the part of Microsoft and Apple to name two.

    Apple played the game of giving computers to school systems to try and get students familiar with using Apple,
    knowing that because of this students would most likely choose Apple over PC because of their familiarity with Apple.

    Microsoft does the same thing with languages. Giving away free or reduced cost educational editions and books of the latest language. This encourages and influences those making the decision to teach those languages. Microsoft wins because they've created a new product for sale. The education system wins because in addition to their current students, they may get new students who want to learn the new language. All at little cost to the educational system.

    As I recall there are about 2500 different languages. Most can get any job done --- including GUI.

    The key is keeping and attracting as much new talent as possible (this forum goes a long way in this regard -- THANK YOU) in VB to keep it going.
    Absolutely! That is totally the strategy.

    Back when VB6 was around, developer tools cost money, sometimes fairly big money. At some point, MS realized that the key to their success was getting more and more Windows applications of any quality and by any means. At that point, they started increasingly giving away developer tools to anybody who might not have enough money to pay for them. At this point, Visual Studio Community Edition is the full Professional edition, and it's free for anybody who isn't part of an organization that should have the money.

    It's a solid strategy. The developer tools bind people to the OS and the ecosystem. This has been far more successful than Apple's push into education. I kind of think that Apple failed at that because students don't have much money, and PCs were cheaper, but one could easily argue for other reasons why Apple never got much market share.
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    Re: Extending VB6

    I am surprised that the major advantage of VB6 has not come up in this thread, and that is RAD (Rapid Application Development). Run your new program in the IDE, and it highlights each problem. Edit it and continue. When you are satisfied with the results, save the program. Compare that to build the program, save the program, execute the program, solve the problem, and then do it all over again. That was what I had to do with Fortran decades ago, and I did not particularly enjoy it.

    J.A. Coutts

  5. #45
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    Re: Extending VB6

    Yesterday someone brought a MAC to me to help them install something on it. I know next to nothing about MACs and after 15 minutes of trying, I wanted to pound nails into my eyes. I hope Apple burns to the ground with failure if it means that horrible OS could disappear from the world. OSX is the most unintuitive operating system I have ever seen. You have to be crazy if you think that pile of **** could touch Windows.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

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    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

  6. #46
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    Re: Extending VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    Yesterday someone brought a MAC to me to help them install something on it. I know next to nothing about MACs and after 15 minutes of trying, I wanted to pound nails into my eyes. I hope Apple burns to the ground with failure if it means that horrible OS could disappear from the world. OSX is the most unintuitive operating system I have ever seen. You have to be crazy if you think that pile of **** could touch Windows.
    I'd say it just has to do with what you are used to.

    For a while, back in the early 90s, Apple was not designed to ever change. Once you got it set up and running, you never dared change ANYTHING about it. The trade magazines of the time (InCider, and something else like Mac User) took that as understood. It was basically an OS for people who were afraid of computers, but had to use them. Somebody set it up for you, and you never touched anything again other than the keyboard, the mouse (which only had the one key), and the power switch....and even the power switch you used with caution.
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  7. #47
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    Re: Extending VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    I'd say it just has to do with what you are used to.
    Hmmmm...If that were true, I'd say the same about Ubuntu but I actually like Ubuntu. I donno. The feeling I got with the MAC was that Apple deliberately did everything different from Windows. I felt like they hired someone to just use Windows just so he could report back for them to do everything not the Windows way. It was bizarre. I hated every second of it. If someone gave me an IPad or MAC for my birthday, I'd consider that person an enemy that wants to mutilate and sexually defile my corpse.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

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    Re: Extending VB6

    If you've ever used Quark Express on Mac, that feeling will be doubled.
    By the power invested in me, all the threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones - no arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign.

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    Re: Extending VB6

    If we started talking about sexual associations ...
    VB 6.0 programmers have become an oppressed minority against which Microsoft is waging a deliberate genocide. To deprive your favorite programming language is like taking away candy from a child.

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    Re: Extending VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by Argus19 View Post
    VB 6.0 programmers have become an oppressed minority against which Microsoft is waging a deliberate genocide.
    Weird thing. It still seems to work fine here.

  11. #51
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    Re: Extending VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Weird thing. It still seems to work fine here.
    Expect a call from the BASIC police at any time, Niya is watching you...
    By the power invested in me, all the threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones - no arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign.

  12. #52
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    Re: Extending VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    Expect a call from the BASIC police at any time, Niya is watching you...
    He spoke the truth. VB6 does work fine.....well I mean except for the quirk in the designer where you don't see what is happening during resize and drag operations but I've gotten used to that. The last time the VB6 designer worked well was back in Windows XP.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

  13. #53
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    Re: Extending VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    It still seems to work fine here.
    While working.
    Olaf writes the IDE alone. This is the feat of Hercules.
    Does anyone say that he does it out of boredom ?!

  14. #54
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    Re: Extending VB6

    Even established alternatives like Free Pascal are struggling:

    https://www.freepascal.org/download.html

    Because of a lack of release builders and testers, 3.2.2 is only available for a limited number of platforms and not in all package formats. If you want to change this and build and test future releases, contact us via the mailing lists.

  15. #55
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    Re: Extending VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Even established alternatives like Free Pascal are struggling:

    https://www.freepascal.org/download.html
    You know I get it, some people fall deeply in love with some languages come on, some people really need to learn when it's time to just pack it in and move on. They stick around, trying with all their might to revive these corpses. I mean who in God's name uses Pascal anymore lol.....
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

  16. #56
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    Re: Extending VB6

    Disclaimer: I'm a big fan of twinBASIC, and an early subscriber.

    I'm not surprised that Win11 runs VB6, it's basically Win10 21H2 but hijacked by the marketing department. It works because there's no technical reason it shouldn't work. But it would only take one marketing droid to take a disliking to it, and there would be a block and an official post disowning it and years of registry hacks to keep it on life support. Until I see an official support update, I'll be worried.

    My career path was VBA -> VB6 -> C#. There's been things that have pissed me off along the way, but generally things have improved. I do worry though that the path I took is less and less likely for the next generation. VBA is immensely accessible. VB6 was just VBA with a small and wonderful hop. What does this generation have?

    1) Jump straight into Visual Studio and .Net. Learn about managed runtimes, generational garbage collection, and then the cliff that is XAML.
    2) Download VSCode. Wonder what the hell this Web-looking thing is, without even a toolbar to get going. Learn a million keyboard shortcuts. And XAML, without even a designer to preview things.

    From what I see so far, twinBASIC is trying to re-enable the old opportunities. Fully compatible with VBA, just with modern conveniences. The jump from Visual Studio 6 to VSCode is a huge culture shock, perhaps a step too far for some. But there are options. The underlying technology is open (LSP and DAP), so VSCode is not the only option. There's Eclipse Theia, which can be pre-configured to be more familiar. Failing that, there's no technical reason one couldn't create a tB IDE designed to look incredibly similar the VS6. The difficult bit is making the compiler and debugger, and that's being solved. By comparison, the IDE is easy.

    EDIT: replying to an earlier post. Yes twinBASIC is commercial, but everything you could do with VB6 is available in the free tier (compiling to Windows 32-bit). If you want 64 bit or other platforms, you need a license. That seems like a reasonable migration path to me.
    Last edited by mansellan; Oct 16th, 2021 at 08:18 PM.

  17. #57

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    Re: Extending VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    The answer to that is simple. They have to. There are probably still many VB6 programs out there in the wild. I don't know the numbers but if the number of VB6 application deployments is in the thousands or hundreds of thousands, it would simply be bad business for Microsoft to break them for no reason. They want to keep people on Windows so there is just no reason to give their users one extra thing to complain about.
    It would be crucial indeed... to migrate from platform to maintain a system. I've seen it in a large store where a program was running on windows 98 .... other computers were win7 at the time.

    Edit: It was just a computer with win98

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    Re: Extending VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by mansellan View Post
    The jump from Visual Studio 6 to VSCode is a huge culture shock, perhaps a step too far for some.
    That worries me. RADBasic takes a different approach, continue to use the VB6 IDE and then compile to 64 using a plug in.
    By the power invested in me, all the threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones - no arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign.

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    Re: Extending VB6

    Originally Posted by mansellan
    The jump from Visual Studio 6 to VSCode is a huge culture shock, perhaps a step too far for some.
    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    That worries me. RADBasic takes a different approach, continue to use the VB6 IDE and then compile to 64 using a plug in.
    It shouldn't worry you. twinBASIC in the VSCode IDE still has a Form Layout window, a Project Explorer window, a Properties window, a Toolbox and a Debug Console (Immediate window).

    Yes, VSCode has many new 'modern' features that will keep Visual Studio/.Net users happy but much is readily usable by VB6 users.

    Just like any other IDE you have to get used to VSCode, but it isn't difficult.
    My biggest criticism is that it is slow to load (compared with VB6).

    I'm happy to use either the VB6 IDE or VSCode.
    Last edited by VB6 Programming; Oct 18th, 2021 at 06:58 AM.

  20. #60
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    Re: Extending VB6

    Acquainting VB6 developers with VS Code is probably the best gift TwinBasic can give to any of them.

    Opening up to this alien world of JS, React, Rust and Golang can introduce (and convert) some of the VB6 dinosaurs to the much more profitable and exciting web development track where the future lies.

    cheers,
    </wqw>

  21. #61
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    Re: Extending VB6

    Many of the dinosaurs have been crunching on JS and frameworks for a long time too. Rust is not really quite here nor quite as suitable as a general purpose nor beginner's language. Besides, we are here as we are productive and don't really need converting.
    By the power invested in me, all the threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones - no arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign.

  22. #62
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    Re: Extending VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    Yesterday someone brought a MAC to me to help them install something on it. I know next to nothing about MACs and after 15 minutes of trying, I wanted to pound nails into my eyes. I hope Apple burns to the ground with failure if it means that horrible OS could disappear from the world. OSX is the most unintuitive operating system I have ever seen. You have to be crazy if you think that pile of **** could touch Windows.
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    Re: Extending VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    That worries me. RADBasic takes a different approach, continue to use the VB6 IDE and then compile to 64 using a plug in.
    That's kinda what I was getting at though. It's FAR easier to make an IDE that connects to an existing compiler and debugger, than it is to add a new (backwards-compatible) compiler and debugger to an existing IDE.

    A lot of the boilerplate for creating an IDE (front-end) already exist. If done in .Net, there are libraries (NuGets) for the LSP and DAP protocols. There are controls for the code editor pane (AvalonEdit natively, or even Monaco if you're happy to embed web resources). Perhaps the most difficult piece would be the form designer, but there are open source options there too, you could use code from the now-defunct SharpDevelop IDE.

    And that's before you even consider Eclipse Theia, which is a framework for easily creating LSP/DAP based IDEs. It might be trickier to style it to look like VS6 though.
    Last edited by mansellan; Oct 18th, 2021 at 02:23 PM.

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    Re: Extending VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by mansellan View Post
    That's kinda what I was getting at though. It's FAR easier to make an IDE that connects to an existing compiler and debugger, than it is to add a new (backwards-compatible) compiler and debugger to an existing IDE.
    Do you know, I think you may be wrong.

    The complexity of the VB6 IDE and what it provides is one of the main stumbling blocks to creating a VB6 replacement. Do not underestimate what it would take to recreate the VB6 IDE. I am sure Olaf could tell you why this is so. It isn't just buttons in the right place with a theme.

    If you have skills in code conversion and compilers then it would seem to be the easier route to attach a plugin to the existing IDE. Initially no new IDE needs to be built at all.
    By the power invested in me, all the threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones - no arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign.

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    Re: Extending VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    Do you know, I think you may be wrong.

    The complexity of the VB6 IDE and what it provides is one of the main stumbling blocks to creating a VB6 replacement. Do not underestimate what it would take to recreate the VB6 IDE. I am sure Olaf could tell you why this is so. It isn't just buttons in the right place with a theme.

    If you have skills in code conversion and compilers then it would seem to be the easier route to attach a plugin to the existing IDE. Initially no new IDE needs to be built at all.
    If starting from a blank slate, I'd agree with you. But there are a lot of open source components that cut out huge swathes of the problem. Before Eclipse Theia was considered, i was very much contemplating having a stab at making an IDE. Really the only thing that put me off was the forms designer.

    Producing a backwards-compatible compiler and debugger on the other hand, that's way above my pay grade.

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    Re: Extending VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by mansellan View Post
    Producing a backwards-compatible compiler and debugger on the other hand, that's way above my pay grade.
    Well, that's well above many of us! Certainly above mine. The RADBasic chap believes he has the capability and I don't have the capability to say otherwise. We shall see!
    By the power invested in me, all the threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones - no arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign.

  27. #67

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    Re: Extending VB6

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/pre...support-policy

    VB6 joins Windows 11 support list.

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    Re: Extending VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by Episcopal View Post
    This shouldn't surprise anyone. Microsoft believes in backward compatibility religiously. It's one of the main reasons Windows was so successful. Raymond Chen I believe it was wrote an article about the insane lengths Microsoft would go to in order to support older software on Windows. It's mind blowing.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

  29. #69
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    Re: Extending VB6

    They are faltering with that commitment, though. I hope they don't abandon that commitment, I'm just not utterly convinced that they will stick with it. After all, they HAVE abandoned it in some areas. There are some games that stopped working a few versions back.
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  30. #70
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    Re: Extending VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    They are faltering with that commitment, though. I hope they don't abandon that commitment, I'm just not utterly convinced that they will stick with it. After all, they HAVE abandoned it in some areas. There are some games that stopped working a few versions back.
    There are some areas where they have to make sacrifices. A good example would be 16 bit support in 64 bit Windows, and even then there are workarounds. Thing is, they will aim for backward compatibility if it is doable 100% of the time, no matter how difficult it is. They would only sacrifice it if supporting means it means they can't push Windows forward.
    Treeview with NodeAdded/NodesRemoved events | BlinkLabel control | Calculate Permutations | Object Enums | ComboBox with centered items | .Net Internals article(not mine) | Wizard Control | Understanding Multi-Threading | Simple file compression | Demon Arena

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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

  31. #71
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    Re: Extending VB6

    Right. That's what people are concerned about.

    After all, .NET would have been backwards compatible with VB6, or at least with a working upgrade path, had that been doable. It wasn't....and here we are. That makes it entirely reasonable for people to be concerned with each new update to Windows.
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