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Thread: Democracy

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    Democracy

    What do you think about the current state of democracy around the world or in your home?

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    Re: Democracy

    We have democratic dictatorship in Greece.
    Although since we created democracy(you're welcome), I hope we can get back to it.

    I can't speak for the rest of the world but I guess some countries fall into our dominion, meaning they think they have democracy but they really don't.
    .

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    Re: Democracy

    Democracy? That system also known as "Tyranny of the Majority?"

    There is a reason why so many new governments founded during the Enlightenment are republics. Mob rule doesn't work particularly well even in a tiny population.

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    Re: Democracy

    It's not the first time that an innovative idea gets so twisted up, so I blame the monkeys!
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    Re: Democracy

    what we see right now is the loss of the forth pillar of democracy. and that frightens me.

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    Re: Democracy

    Yeah. There's a distorted fourth pillar, though, and that's even more disturbing. There's news out there, to be sure, it just doesn't have any vetting before it's released. There are no editorial standards on social media.
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    Re: Democracy

    There are no editorial standards on social media.
    if you mean that someone should verify if the posted information is OK to be posted or not and kind of filter these to protect people from false information, then you are absolutely and totally wrong. this is free speech and censoring of the same. yes, there will be stupids who post stupid things but the people must be allowed to hear it and decide what they believe. and a democracy must trust in the ability of its people to do so.

    you can see what happens when you have "editorial standards" infested with politics every day in established media. you dont get information, you are just brainwashed. If politics would get their fingers out of journalism and journalists would be allowed and trained to do their job again (investigate, but the pieces together and make a story out of it) then we would not be in this catastrophic situation.

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    Re: Democracy

    If politics would get their fingers out of journalism and journalists would be allowed and trained to do their job again
    Why? All evidence currently points to the opposite conclusion.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill

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    Re: Democracy

    Why? All evidence currently points to the opposite conclusion.
    may i ask, what evidence you are refering to?

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    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    You're arguing that we are better informed informed when there are no press standards and anyone can report as they see fit. The internet has given us exactly that situation for the first time in a couple of hundred years. It gave rise to QAnon, the big lie and January 6th.

    Where is your evidence that journalists, when left devoid of oversight, will pursue integrity over profit?
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    Re: Democracy

    what makes you sure that journalists will pursue integrity over profit in the current system? they are not.
    what i meant was that no one shall decide on what is the truth and what not and different opinions shall never be censored (aka deleted).

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    Re: Democracy

    In Greece we call the journalists (most of them) ruffians.
    Btw the truth is one, everything else is opinions and everyone got one of them. You know, opinions are like aholes....
    .

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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by sapator View Post
    In Greece we call the journalists (most of them) ruffians.
    haha, you greeks are still years ahead compared to the rest of us but we are catching up.

    Quote Originally Posted by sapator View Post
    Btw the truth is one, everything else is opinions and everyone got one of them. You know, opinions are like aholes....
    there is never ultimate truth, at least not in this universe. it's like heisenbergs uncertaincy: you can narrow it down to a degree but odds are, its still somewhere else. every person has to search for thruth on their own. if you don't do it but instead just follow others without questioning, you are not living.

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    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by digitalShaman View Post
    if you mean that someone should verify if the posted information is OK to be posted or not and kind of filter these to protect people from false information, then you are absolutely and totally wrong.
    No, I don't mean that. What I meant was that there was no verification for social media posts. I didn't say whether that was right or wrong.

    When it comes to journalism, an ethical journalist shouldn't accept any statement as true, but verify everything against multiple sources. If those sources all agree, and they weren't chosen specifically BECAUSE they will agree, then the statement can be said to be true. If the sources do not all agree, then the statement can be stated, but the disagreement must also be stated.

    None of that happens with social media. That isn't right or wrong, it just is. However, it does mean that there is a different evidence basis for responsible journalism as opposed to social media. They shouldn't be considered equal, or even particularly equivalent.
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    Re: Democracy

    what makes you sure that journalists will pursue integrity over profit in the current system? they are not.
    I agree, hence the need for oversight.

    there is never ultimate truth
    Yes there is. Gravity causes objects to attract, the earth is round and man made climate change is real and was when were debating it 20 frickin' years ago. What there is not is a only single valid opinion. News media should not be regulated in the opinions it expresses but it should be regulated in the "factual truths" it expresses. At present this is clearly not the case.

    The single most prolific mechanism news media uses to avoid existing regulation is to couch itself as opinion rather than news. This happens on both the Left and the Right (though I would argue that the Right is much worse). Thus we have news media denying Covid Vaccinations and pushing cattle de wormers as an alternative by "just asking questions". But the answer to this is not to throw away what regulations there are, but rather to extend them to police the bad actors.

    I think you're broadly arguing that regulation is not needed because the public at large is discerning enough to distinguish fact from fiction but, again, that's demonstrably untrue.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Sep 19th, 2021 at 04:47 AM.
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    Re: Democracy

    I don't understand the argument.
    There is only one ultimate truth and it's...42.
    .

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    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    pushing cattle de wormers as an alternative
    See, there you go. Fake news. I heard it was horse de wormers, and yeah, I didn't do a bit of research to confirm that bit of information, so I'm probably wrong, because why would a dewormer work on horses and not cows? But that's the level of editorial responsibility on social media.

    I think you're broadly arguing that regulation is not needed because the public at large is discerning enough to distinguish fact from fiction but, again, that's demonstrably untrue.
    Darn. I came back here because I thought you had said "the public at large is discriminating enough", to which I would have replied that we discriminate plenty, but you said 'discerning', which just isn't nearly as ripe with promise.
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    See, there you go. Fake news. I heard it was horse de wormers, and yeah, I didn't do a bit of research to confirm that bit of information, so I'm probably wrong, because why would a dewormer work on horses and not cows? But that's the level of editorial responsibility on social media.
    what an extraodinary example of fake news spread by legacy media that is what i meant with loss of the fourth pillar. you should propably do that "bit of research" on the drug in question. don't let them spoon feed you! question everything!

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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by sapator View Post
    There is only one ultimate truth and it's...42.
    you don't yet know how right you are!

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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by sapator View Post
    I don't understand the argument.
    There is only one ultimate truth and it's...42.
    I know people who would fight together because the first ones would say "42" and the second would says "forty two"... (by the way they are both wrong because in reality it is 2A)
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Delaney View Post
    I know people who would fight together because the first ones would say "42" and the second would says "forty two"... (by the way they are both wrong because in reality it is 2A)
    the good old babel problem...

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    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by digitalShaman View Post
    what an extraodinary example of fake news spread by legacy media that is what i meant with loss of the fourth pillar. you should propably do that "bit of research" on the drug in question. don't let them spoon feed you! question everything!
    Except it's not fake. Ivermectin is used to treat humans but that treatment is regulated and not approved for COVID so people are using veterinary medicines because they are not regulated the same way. Dosage for animals is much higher, hence the cases over poisoning. There is sufficient reason to investigate Ivermectin further but, currently, there is no good evidence to indicate that it is effective in treating COVID. If those pushing were talking about its potential or even its promise then that would be one thing, but they are claiming that it's a some proven wonder drug, which it clearly isn't not. They're banging on about it now just like the did hydroxychloroquine before. No one is pushing that any more but, of course, no one has actually come out and admitted they they were wrong. They've just gone onto the next thing with which to deny reality.

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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    Except it's not fake. Ivermectin is used to treat humans but that treatment is regulated and not approved for COVID so people are using veterinary medicines because they are not regulated the same way. Dosage for animals is much higher, hence the cases over poisoning. There is sufficient reason to investigate Ivermectin further but, currently, there is no good evidence to indicate that it is effective in treating COVID. If those pushing were talking about its potential or even its promise then that would be one thing, but they are claiming that it's a some proven wonder drug, which it clearly isn't not. They're banging on about it now just like the did hydroxychloroquine before. No one is pushing that any more but, of course, no one has actually come out and admitted they they were wrong. They've just gone onto the next thing with which to deny reality.
    how much time did you invest in researching this to come to this conclusion?

    The story with the many people overdosing ivermectin is proven fake news but it was published in media all around the world with the arrogant undertone of how stupid these people are taking horse dewormer "hahaha, we are so much smarter than these idiots". that was the story. question why.

    this arrogant attitude "i am smart and others are stupid" is the hybris of civilization.

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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by digitalShaman View Post
    The story with the many people overdosing ivermectin is proven fake news
    Proven fake by whom? Are you talking about that doctor supposedly claiming that ERs were being overrun by Ivermectin poisonings and the supposed hospital he cited stating that he hadn't worked there for some time and that they hadn't treated any such poisonings? If so then you're out of luck, because he never made that claim in the first place. He just said that ERs were being stretched in general and Ivermectin poisoning was just one factor causing that. He didn't even say how big a factor it was. Meanwhile, the time I invested in researching this leads me to conclude that official poison control bodies have reported significant increases in calls relating to Ivermectin poisoning. Do you have anything specific to quote beyond that debunking of a strawman, because I've heard no such proof.

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    Re: Democracy

    I really do not get how people who will loudly shout as to how the Covid Vaccines are untested or even we lack enough data on them can then push Ivermectin as some cure for Covid.

    There are some Doctors who believe that it has been effective, there have been some studies that also suggest this, but if you dig further into it the biggest test group studies those patients were taking a cocktail of drugs, they were not proper double blind trials and the amount of people it has been tested on is tiny in comparison with the vaccines.

    If you believe that any of the vaccines have not been tested enough then I dont understand how you can believe that Ivermectin has when it hasn't gone through proper clinical trials to see if it even really works on Covid

    Right now Oxford University is doing a large scale clinical trial, the data from that trial should give us a much clearer picture if Ivermectin is at all effective in treating covid.
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    Proven fake by whom? Are you talking about that doctor supposedly claiming that ERs were being overrun by Ivermectin poisonings and the supposed hospital he cited stating that he hadn't worked there for some time and that they hadn't treated any such poisonings? If so then you're out of luck, because he never made that claim in the first place. He just said that ERs were being stretched in general and Ivermectin poisoning was just one factor causing that. He didn't even say how big a factor it was.
    so, what are you trying to tell me? There was this story in media all around the globe that people are taking horse dewormer (Framing) and poison themself and clogging up a hospital.
    I call that fake news. intended to discredit ivermectin and stir up hatred against unvaxinated people.
    I dont get your point from what you say. it rather explains quite well that it was fake news.



    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    Meanwhile, the time I invested in researching this leads me to conclude that official poison control bodies have reported significant increases in calls relating to Ivermectin poisoning. Do you have anything specific to quote beyond that debunking of a strawman, because I've heard no such proof.
    Do you have data for me showing that increase of Ivermectin poisoning? i searched but din not find any up-to-date statistics related to poisoning.
    i guess there might well be small increase but how big is it? Is it significant? Is it relevant related to hospital workload?

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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers View Post
    I really do not get...
    It's about ideology. It's just like how creationists will point to some scientific fact that supposedly supports their case while ignoring most of cosmology and biology. With regards to COVID vaccines specifically, two of the big factors are:

    1. Trump didn't get credit for the vaccines. Trump was crowing about vaccines as the crown jewel of his COVID strategy - it was pretty much all he had - and there wasn't really much pushback at the time. Trump was then out of office and it was up to Biden to oversee the vaccine rollout and suddenly there was considerably more opposition to them. Sarah Sanders, Trump's old press secretary, even suggested that Biden give Trump more credit for the vaccines specifically as a way to reduce vaccine hesitancy rates. I'm not sure exactly how much credit she thinks Trump deserves but she knows that a lot of people are opposing vaccines specifically to "own the libs" and make life harder for Biden. They are so dug in now that even Trump himself telling people he thinks that they should be vaccinated doesn't move them.

    2. The conspiracy theorists who have been against the vaccines from the start genuinely want to be in the minority. They want to feel like they know something that the majority just don't/can't understand because it makes them feel special. That the majority have been hoodwinked by Big Pharma and the government while they know the truth fuels their simultaneous persecution complex and superiority complex, which they have in the first place thanks primarily to the American brand of Christianity.

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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by digitalShaman View Post
    Is it relevant related to hospital workload?
    I don't know and I don't care. My point was that people ARE taking dewormer made for animals as a treatment for COVID. That is NOT fake news. That some people may be trying to make more of that than is actually the case doesn't change that. That's the end of that discussion, as far as I'm concerned.

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    Re: Democracy

    Ehmm.
    This is not a covid thread?...

    What I would say, regardless on what you talked about is that majority is not always right. Not opposing or favoring mind you.
    .

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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    2. The conspiracy theorists who have been against the vaccines from the start genuinely want to be in the minority. They want to feel like they know something that the majority just don't/can't understand because it makes them feel special. That the majority have been hoodwinked by Big Pharma and the government while they know the truth fuels their simultaneous persecution complex and superiority complex, which they have in the first place thanks primarily to the American brand of Christianity.
    Cannot say anything about this regarding USA or Australia, but i can say something about this in Germany:
    The Problem with the "Vac-Opponents" in Germany isn't so much the Vaccination itself, but more the "it's mandatory"-Style it's propagated as.
    There are more and more "areas" (Restaurants, Supermarkets, Public venues etc.) which only allow entry to "recovered, tested or vaccinated" people.
    And currently, It's even a point of debate to make it a regulation (I'm trying to avoid the word "Law").

    --> This implies the opposite of "unrecovered, untested, and not vaccinated" as "undesirables". BUT: How would you recognize someone being either?

    In that context i asked my boss an "explosive" Question:
    "When is the german Governement starting to issue, you know, the yellow armbands with a 6-pointed star on it to those who are neither recovered, tested or vaccinated?"
    Dead silence was my answer......
    "If you think about it, the rhetoric is the same, just a few different words, and we all know how that played out some 80 years ago....."

    As i said: The Problem is not so much the Vaccination itself, it's more the lack of freedom of choice
    and "So, we, who did everything right, and neither didn't get infected nor infected anyone else, are now the losers in our rights?"
    Last edited by Zvoni; Sep 20th, 2021 at 05:03 AM.
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    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Zvoni View Post
    Cannot say anything about this regarding USA or Australia, but i can say something about this in Germany:
    The Problem with the "Vac-Opponents" in Germany isn't so much the Vaccination itself, but more the "it's mandatory"-Style it's propagated as.
    There are more and more "areas" (Restaurants, Supermarkets, Public venues etc.) which only allow entry to "recovered, tested or vaccinated" people.
    And currently, It's even a point of debate to make it a regulation (I'm trying to avoid the word "Law").

    --> This implies the opposite of "unrecovered, untested, and not vaccinated" as "undesirables". BUT: How would you recognize someone being either?

    In that context i asked my boss an "explosive" Question:
    "When is the german Governement starting to issue, you know, the yellow armbands with a 6-pointed star on it to those who are neither recovered, tested or vaccinated?"
    Dead silence was my answer......
    "If you think about it, the rhetoric is the same, just a few different words, and we all know how that played out some 80 years ago....."

    As i said: The Problem is not so much the Vaccination itself, it's more the lack of freedom of choice
    and "So, we, who did everything right, and neither didn't get infected nor infected anyone else, are now the losers in our rights?"
    I think that most of that is a crock. Things may certainly be different in Germany but I very much doubt that they're so different as to make much of that reasonable. There are a lot of people trying to frame this as a freedom issue and there is certainly that aspect to it, but if you're a person who would get the vaccine if there was no pressure to do so but won't because there is then you're basically scum. The comparison to the holocaust is really rather disgusting, to be frank. Playing the victim in the extreme. If the problem is not the vaccine then get vaccinated. Stop whining about freedom when you have the freedom to choose to get vaccinated and maximise the level of protection for everyone.

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    Re: Democracy

    On the subject of democracy, I would suggest that no one really thinks of democracy in the original Greek sense. I think that most people consider a democratic society to be one where everyone has a say in who gets elected to then make the decisions. America is a perfect example of a place where that is the case on the surface but more and more effort is being made to give fewer and fewer people a genuine say in who gets elected to a decision-making role. Nowhere is perfect and there are plenty of places that are worse but, given that America tends to hold itself up as the poster child for this brand of democracy, the level of influence that private and corporate money has on American politics is a big problem and only getting bigger. I would say that our campaign finance laws here in Australia help to protect us from that to a greater degree but money still talks and there are always people trying to find loopholes.

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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by sapator View Post
    Ehmm.
    This is not a covid thread?...
    correct, but it goes hand in hand. systematic misinformation and framing by legacy media is pushing people into vaccination that might not be indicated. (I am saying "might" as i want to encourage to examine this - i came to my personal conclusion backed up by scientific data.) And the pandemic is used to dismantle democracy. That is, at least my perception.

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    Re: Democracy

    I don't have an issue of course but I want to know where I should spam
    Also I tend to agree with some words of NeedSomeAnswers here so that is not my kind of thread
    .

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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    I think that most of that is a crock. Things may certainly be different in Germany but I very much doubt that they're so different as to make much of that reasonable. There are a lot of people trying to frame this as a freedom issue and there is certainly that aspect to it, but if you're a person who would get the vaccine if there was no pressure to do so but won't because there is then you're basically scum. The comparison to the holocaust is really rather disgusting, to be frank. Playing the victim in the extreme. If the problem is not the vaccine then get vaccinated. Stop whining about freedom when you have the freedom to choose to get vaccinated and maximise the level of protection for everyone.
    It is different in Germany because of its "Sensivity" to History.
    The thing is: There are already public venues (Restaurants etc.) which have a sign on the door "Entry only allowed for recovered or vaccinated" (note: tested is deliberately missing).
    Anyone remember the US-History? Public restrooms divided by skin-color?
    THAT's the Problem the Vac-Opponents have! That's the cut into Freedom of choice, that's the point of contention regarding "discrimination".
    Not a single one of those vac-opponents i talked with have a problem with "let's stop this pandemic".
    They have a problem how governments are doing it (and along the way filling the purses of the Pharma-Biggies).

    As someone pointed out that facts have to be proven by evidence: Please correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't it proven, that Covid19 "dies" after 14 days?
    So, wherein lied the problem to stop the World for 3-4 weeks with every single person adhering to "keep yourself isolated for that time"? Covid19 would have been defeated already!
    [SARCASM ON]
    But no, it's not possible. We cannot stop global trade. The damage to economy would be immense.
    I do not want to go without <insert inane reason> during that time.
    [SARCASM OFF]

    Do not lecture me on trying to frame it as an issue of freedom, because it is an issue of freedom of choice!
    Do not lecture me on being selfish just because i want to keep my freedom of choice.

    Nuff said.

    FWIW: I am vaccinated! But not for the reasons you posted (protection of someone else).
    that's not my job!
    I did everything right during the "High-Time" of infection and didn't get infected, though i had close contact with my parents who both got it.
    So, i did everything right, but i am discriminated against just because i'm not vaccinated (for whatever reasons).

    I got vaccinated because i'm traveling a lot, and i just didn't want to go through the hassle with those tests.

    EDIT: Since this is a thread about democracy:
    Democracy is my right to say "No", and not get prosecuted for it!
    Last edited by Zvoni; Sep 20th, 2021 at 05:58 AM.
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  36. #36
    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Zvoni View Post
    Democracy is my right to say "No", and not get prosecuted for it!
    You have the right to say "no" and no one is prosecuting you. If it's not about the vaccine itself, as you say, then get vaccinated and then there will be no restrictions on what you can do as a result. You still have the right to be annoyed or angry based on principle if you so desire.

    BTW, I wanted to say that my previous post was an immediate visceral reaction and I said some things that I didn't really mean. Some I did mean, but language like "scum" was not meant in a general sense. I can and will provide a more nuanced comment, but I'm not inclined to do so right now.

  37. #37
    PowerPoster Zvoni's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    You have the right to say "no" and no one is prosecuting you. If it's not about the vaccine itself, as you say, then get vaccinated and then there will be no restrictions on what you can do as a result. You still have the right to be annoyed or angry based on principle if you so desire.
    And that's where we disagree. If someone says "No" to getting vaccinated, she/he IS prosecuted the moment there is a sign on a door "only recovered/vaccinated allowed".
    And IF (!!) this becomes regulation/law then you have the public restrooms for "white people only" back.
    And that's i'm vehemently opposed to (despite being vaccinated myself. see reasons above)

    BTW, I wanted to say that my previous post was an immediate visceral reaction and I said some things that I didn't really mean. Some I did mean, but language like "scum" was not meant in a general sense. I can and will provide a more nuanced comment, but I'm not inclined to do so right now.
    Apology accepted!
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  38. #38
    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Zvoni View Post
    And IF (!!) this becomes regulation/law then you have the public restrooms for "white people only" back.
    I take back any apology I may have made or implied. I've heard a number of Americans compare their situation to the holocaust and now we've got a German comparing theirs to segregation. Both utterly pathetic. Choosing to be unvaccinated is very different from being black or Jewish and to pretend otherwise is quite disgusting.

  39. #39
    PowerPoster Zvoni's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    What you fail to recognize, is the current "right-tug" in general politics (at least for Europe. No idea about the rest of the World).
    LePen in France, AfD in Germany, Current Government in Hungary, Current Government in Poland

    The main argument of the "Nay"-Sayers is: If you allow it this once, what's to stop "them" for something else in the future?
    The Freedom of choice, the freedom of movement, the freedom of speech is anchored in the german Constitution.
    Any regulation/Law making it mandatory to get vaccinated (otherwise you are prohibited to visit e.g. the cinema) is a violation of the constitution, and reminds too many german people of the
    Enabling Act of 1933
    One System to rule them all, One Code to find them,
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  40. #40
    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    If such laws are unconstitutional then they will be struck down under the constitution. Are there such laws being put in place? Then oppose those laws. Is it, rather, the case that private institutions are preventing you from entering their premises? If that is the case then you're complaining about unconstitutional laws is a smokescreen. That's exactly what's happening in America, but not sure about elsewhere. The very same people who were all in favour of a baker not having to bake a cake for a wedding that they weren't even invited to are suddenly all up in arms about private companies making decisions about what they will and won't allow on their premises, despite the same thing already being in place in the form of dress codes and the like. Most of the arguments I've heard are just smokescreens.

    Also, you say that you are vaccinated and that's great, but your claim that it's not about the vaccine itself but the principle of freedom is simply not true about a large number of people. I certainly don't know the stats in Germany but I can say that, in Australia, things are not quite as bad as in the US but for many it is about the vaccine, even if they pretend that it's not. They hide behind freedom to get support when it's really just selfishness.

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