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Thread: Democracy

  1. #81
    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Zvoni View Post
    And there were those idiots making fun of those rules, getting infected (and infecting others). Where is the "Transgression"-Discussion for them?
    I just read today about a 22 year-old man here in Australia who was diagnosed with COVID and ordered to self-isolate but police caught him going into a supermarket without a mask. He has been sentenced to 21 days in jail and fine $1000. Maybe Germany hasn't had that discussion but it's being had elsewhere.

  2. #82
    PowerPoster Zvoni's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    So what are you whining about then? If it's unconstitutional then it's not going to happen. What's the problem?
    My Problem is the used rhetoric (How many times do i have to repeat that?)
    Of course, that something is unconstitutional means that the government can't enact a law to enforce it but that doesn't necessarily mean that private companies can't make requirements when it comes to their premises. I don't know what the specifics might be in Germany but if it is the case, as I suspect, that individuals have the right to say no to vaccines but companies and other individuals have the right to say no to unvaccinated individuals then you have an equal responsibility to respect both, so maybe do that.
    Correct! And i am doing that! The difference is, that it would be my own conscious decision (and agreement to this stipulation) if i accept such an employee-contract. And i would still have the right to decline such a contract and look elsewhere.
    Also, other countries don't necessarily have a constitutional barrier to vaccine mandates so you have an equal responsibility to respect their governments' rights to impose them.
    Where did i disrespect another country's government?!?!?!
    My Point of contention was never about the laws of the US or in your case, Australia.
    And i do have a vested interest in what goes on in Australia, since i have a bunch of relatives there.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    I just read today about a 22 year-old man here in Australia who was diagnosed with COVID and ordered to self-isolate but police caught him going into a supermarket without a mask. He has been sentenced to 21 days in jail and fine $1000. Maybe Germany hasn't had that discussion but it's being had elsewhere.
    Good on Australia!
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  3. #83
    PowerPoster Zvoni's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    It's not a constitution, it's a treaty. There's a very big difference. The EU wanted a constitution but member states refused to ratify it.
    Ooops!
    Funky, i apologize.
    I really missed that the european constitution was rejected.
    My only excuse (and it's a weak one) is that i really don't follow politics that much
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  4. #84
    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Zvoni View Post
    My Problem is the used rhetoric (How many times do i have to repeat that?)
    What rhetoric, exactly? You keep talking about "undesirables" but is that a term that is actually being used by anyone? Perhaps it is in Germany but I haven't heard it anywhere. It sounds like the sort of thing that those who want to feel persecuted would say. It seems to me that you are claiming that others are making an implication when, in actuality, it's you who is making an inference. The fact that you read something into a statement doesn't mean that that is what was meant by that statement.

  5. #85
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    Re: Democracy

    Since we have JMC here.
    Are you aware of the protests over there? Are they big,small? Did you participated in anyone?We don't get much Aussies here so I though I should ask.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQphVD37Jf8

    Oh and on 0:10 the double headed Eagle is a Byzantine symbol so those are Greeks
    .

  6. #86
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    I'm afraid my German isn't good enough to read the assessment (like most Brits I consider talking English slowly and loudly as equivalent to being multi-lingual) and, weirdly, Google didn't want to translate it. There may be stuff in there that contradicts what I'm about to say.

    The constitution says this:-
    "Every person shall have the right to life and physical integrity. Freedom of the person shall be inviolable. These rights may be interfered with only pursuant to a law."

    I think there are two gaps there you'd need to get around to make your argument. 1. "Physical Integrity" almost certainly covers your right to refuse a vaccine but I very much doubt it covers vaccine passports or similar. 2. I imagine the final sentence "These rights may be interfered with only pursuant to a law" allows the German government to pass a law that supersedes it.

    But I think JM had it right here: "If it's unconstitutional then it's not going to happen. What's the problem?" If your constitution covers it then you have nothing to worry about. If your constitution doesn't cover it then you have no right to demand it.


    Edit>"I really missed that the european constitution was rejected." Yeah, it was that which started turning me off to the EU. I'm still a staunch Europhile (<sniff>I love you guys, man) and I actually believe a Federalised European Super State would be a good thing but that furore did make me start to question the EU as an organisation. They tried to pass a constitution, their constituents rejected it and their response was to rename the whole thing as a treaty and pretend that had the same weight as a constitution. They're still the best European organisation we've got but they're a loooong way from perfect.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Sep 21st, 2021 at 06:02 AM.
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  7. #87
    PowerPoster Zvoni's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    What rhetoric, exactly? You keep talking about "undesirables" but is that a term that is actually being used by anyone? Perhaps it is in Germany but I haven't heard it anywhere. It sounds like the sort of thing that those who want to feel persecuted would say. It seems to me that you are claiming that others are making an implication when, in actuality, it's you who is making an inference. The fact that you read something into a statement doesn't mean that that is what was meant by that statement.
    I was talking about Germany all this time, not about anywhere in the World!
    As to the rhetoric:
    Basically, the "original" thought/rhetoric was: "How can we recognize un-vac-ed people on the street (!!), so everyone else has a chance to avoid them?"
    Code:
    Sub Main()
    Dim rhetoric As String
       rhetoric = "How can we recognize un-vac-ed people on the street (!!), so everyone else has a chance to avoid them?"
       Debug.Print Replace(rhetoric, "un-vac-ed","undesirable")
       Debug.Print Replace(rhetoric, "un-vac-ed","jewish")  'AND YES, I'M EXAGGERATING
    End Sub
    JMC,
    It's not about implication or whatever else you might think.
    It's what Olaf said: If you let it start small, you have no control anymore, when it gains momentum in other directions, and german people are very sensitive about stuff like that.

    Hell, i remember the discussions when the german government offered this Covid-Contact-App for Download
    (a smartphone-app which registered who you were in contact with:
    e.g. let's say the both of us have that app on our smartphones, and i was Covid-positive.
    The moment i passed by you (in a bus, train, Bar wherever), your App would give out an alert)
    First: It was NOT mandatory to install/use that app. --> The german Government knew they wouldn't be able to make it mandatory! nevermind, that people could just decide to leave their phone at home, or just use a second one
    Second: german government assured its users confidentiality regarding phone-numbers and location. --> Yeah. Right! We all know that governmental agencies are able to track smartphones if they want (and i even had it confirmed by a former classmate of me, who is in this business).
    That's the basic reason why that app never lifted off the ground in Germany. Because it boils down to: Yeah. Right. They say they are not going to use it to track me, but i don't believe them.

    btw: This is a nice point regarding the subject of this post: Democracy
    The biggest problem Democracy has is TRUST in the Government, because there is basically none (if you look at it on the whole)
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  8. #88
    PowerPoster Zvoni's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    I'm afraid my German isn't good enough to read the assessment (like most Brits I consider talking English slowly and loudly as equivalent to being multi-lingual) and, weirdly, Google didn't want to translate it. There may be stuff in there that contradicts what I'm about to say.

    The constitution says this:-
    "Every person shall have the right to life and physical integrity. Freedom of the person shall be inviolable. These rights may be interfered with only pursuant to a law."

    I think there are two gaps there you'd need to get around to make your argument. 1. "Physical Integrity" almost certainly covers your right to refuse a vaccine but I very much doubt it covers vaccine passports or similar. 2. I imagine the final sentence "These rights may be interfered with only pursuant to a law" allows the German government to pass a law that supersedes it.

    But I think JM had it right here: "If it's unconstitutional then it's not going to happen. What's the problem?" If your constitution covers it then you have nothing to worry about. If your constitution doesn't cover it then you have no right to demand it.


    Edit>"I really missed that the european constitution was rejected." Yeah, it was that which started turning me off to the EU. I'm still a staunch Europhile (<sniff>I love you guys, man) and I actually believe a Federalised European Super State would be a good thing but that furore did make me start to question the EU as an organisation. They tried to pass a constitution, their constituents rejected it and their response was to rename the whole thing as a treaty and pretend that had the same weight as a constitution. They're still the best European organisation we've got but they're a loooong way from perfect.
    Funky,
    the vac-passport actually never was an issue since pretty much every german has one since childhood.
    The point of contention of the "nay"-sayers is: "We, who have done everything right with keeping distance, wearing facemasks, stayed at home, kept with the regulations imposed on all (AND STILL DO!), are now the a**holes just because we don't trust a vaccine (nevermind not being fully tested. Nevermind having proven side-effects)?"

    Yes, i know that the side-effects are marginal, but can anyone garantuee i won't be the one in a million to suffer from them?

    And for the last time: I am vaccinated, but not because of any sentimental or altruistic reasons. I did it because of convenience (Yes, call me a hypocrite. I don't care)

    EDIT: I've just researched it:
    The german government is only able to circumvent the constitution (but definitely not all of it), if they declare a state of emergency (which they never have!)
    Last edited by Zvoni; Sep 21st, 2021 at 07:32 AM.
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  9. #89
    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Zvoni View Post
    As to the rhetoric:
    Basically, the "original" thought/rhetoric was: "How can we recognize un-vac-ed people on the street (!!), so everyone else has a chance to avoid them?"
    Who exactly is asking that question and what possibilities are they suggesting, or is this just a concern in your head that you're projecting onto others? I'm absolutely not against unvaccinated people being excluded from certain places or activities in order to help prevent the spread of COVID but I'm assuming that people would have to show that they are vaccinated in order to be admitted, not be visibly marked so people can avoid them on the street. It sounds to me like you're making up a problem to be concerned or even outraged about. Some people are definitely inventing that problem here and in the US and, I imagine, elsewhere. If there was a suggestion that Australians had to wear a visible badge to show that they were vaccinated or unvaccinated then I would oppose that and I don't know anyone who wouldn't.

  10. #90
    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by sapator View Post
    Since we have JMC here.
    Are you aware of the protests over there? Are they big,small? Did you participated in anyone?We don't get much Aussies here so I though I should ask.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQphVD37Jf8
    The most recent violence has been in Melbourne but there was violence previously in Sydney. I live an hour or so west of the city centre so I was anywhere near it. I haven't and wouldn't take part in any protests against any measures that have so far been put in place to protect against COVID here and I sneer at those who have. Everything that has been done has, so far, been fairly well justified, in my opinion. Our governments haven't always got everything right but I think that are trying to do the right thing for the most part. The thing that annoys me most is the people who claim that the government is using COVID as a cover - even that it is a hoax specifically for the purpose - of eroding our individual rights. Of course, when the rights that were temporarily suspended for specific reasons are reinstated, not one of those people acknowledges that they were wrong. They just move on to the next thing to lie about in order to feel persecuted.

  11. #91
    PowerPoster Zvoni's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    Who exactly is asking that question and what possibilities are they suggesting, or is this just a concern in your head that you're projecting onto others? I'm absolutely not against unvaccinated people being excluded from certain places or activities in order to help prevent the spread of COVID but I'm assuming that people would have to show that they are vaccinated in order to be admitted, not be visibly marked so people can avoid them on the street. It sounds to me like you're making up a problem to be concerned or even outraged about. Some people are definitely inventing that problem here and in the US and, I imagine, elsewhere. If there was a suggestion that Australians had to wear a visible badge to show that they were vaccinated or unvaccinated then I would oppose that and I don't know anyone who wouldn't.
    Finally you got it.
    This was a real discussion in Germany. German TV news were full of them even asking random passersby their opinion.

    Of course there are consequences about admittance if you're not vac-ed, but the "nay"-sayers are aware of them.
    As i said: I am vac-ed but because of convenience (i really really want to go to the Nightwish-Concert in December), as are a lot of others in Germany.

    What the "nays"-sayers are upset about is, that they are now portrayed as the a**holes just because they excersize their basic right to say "No".
    And they decide just for themselves, not anyone else. They are content to live and let live.
    They don't have a problem adhering to current regulations (Distance, Mask etc.) until the pandemic is declared over (which might never be?).


    Food for thought:
    Just something that cropped up during lunch-break:
    How different is the Covid-Situation to the HIV-Situation at the end of the 80's/beginning of 90's?
    There is still no vac against HIV, there is still no remedy against HIV.
    Did people therefore stop having sex?
    One System to rule them all, One IDE to find them,
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  12. #92
    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Zvoni View Post
    This was a real discussion in Germany. German TV news were full of them even asking random passersby their opinion.
    Was it a real conversation though? What did people say? The fact that some TV station airs the equivalent of clickbait like this doesn't mean that it's a serious conversation. Maybe it was but, as I said, if that happened in Australia then everyone I know would not take it seriously. If someone asked that question without implying that there should be any outwardly visible indication and most or all people said that there shouldn't be any outwardly visible indication then it's not a conversation at all but really just a stunt.

  13. #93
    PowerPoster Zvoni's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    Was it a real conversation though? What did people say? The fact that some TV station airs the equivalent of clickbait like this doesn't mean that it's a serious conversation. Maybe it was but, as I said, if that happened in Australia then everyone I know would not take it seriously. If someone asked that question without implying that there should be any outwardly visible indication and most or all people said that there shouldn't be any outwardly visible indication then it's not a conversation at all but really just a stunt.
    JMC, those conversations were shown by german TV-News-Stations to gauge the (then) current opinion of people.
    The TV-Stations didn't invent (and didn't comment) the conversation.

    I was witness to such conversations in my direct surroundings! With people i've known for a long time

    What you fail to see is that there is a right-swing currently in Europe (which includes Germany).
    And you know what they say: Those who bleat the loudest are the ones being followed by the mass of sheep

    You really really don't know how germans tick (and it might just be your luck that you never experience it)

    I'm actually very lucky to live in an area where the vast majority are actually liberals, "Greenies" and mostly socialist than conservative, but i shudder to think what the situation is in eastern Germany (or Bavaria)
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  14. #94
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    That's interesting. Over here (UK) it's the liberals that are broadly supportive of vaccine mandates, passports etc and the right that are opposing them. Actually, Liberals aren't particularly pushing those measures (mainly because we've done pretty well at vaccinations so I guess we've got some breathing room) but the right have built boogeymen out of them none the less. I get the impression that in the US the division is far deeper with lower vaccination rates. Over there the left actually is touting vaccine mandates and the right is going nuts, frankly. From what you're saying the politics in Germany is reversed which is interesting.

    I've got to say, I share JM's scepticism about whether there's a real call to start pinning badges to people. That sounds exactly like the sort of boogeyman opponents build. I guess I'll take your word for it but I'd oppose it. It's also completely unnecessary. Over here we've got a simple app on our mobile phone (or you can ask for a card if you want to get old school). Any venue that requires vaccinations (so far there aren't any) simply asks to see your status on your app.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill

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  15. #95
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    Re: Democracy

    Now, image not been vaccinated. Sabbath are in town after their 56 reunion and next there is a football game of your favorite team (go Panathinaikos, go Norwich) and of course you would want to go to the pub to celebrate the 3-0 against Manchester United.
    .

  16. #96
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by digitalShaman View Post
    btw: i dont know how many of you are aware, but it looks like with Evergrande we will soon get a global economic hit like 2008. this will put another can of oil into the fire.
    Yeah, you're right about that, and I, for one, am AMAZED. For one thing, the signs have been there for a LONG time, so how this could be causing so much turmoil now is baffling to me. Also, China generally intervenes on things like this, but they're being awfully coy this time around.
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    (like most Brits I consider talking English slowly and loudly as equivalent to being multi-lingual)
    That's a relief. I thought that was only a US thing.
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  18. #98
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Zvoni View Post
    EDIT: I've just researched it:
    The german government is only able to circumvent the constitution (but definitely not all of it), if they declare a state of emergency (which they never have!)
    If they are ever going to....a pandemic is the second most likely reason. Second only to a war.
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Zvoni View Post
    Food for thought:
    Just something that cropped up during lunch-break:
    How different is the Covid-Situation to the HIV-Situation at the end of the 80's/beginning of 90's?
    There is still no vac against HIV, there is still no remedy against HIV.
    Did people therefore stop having sex?
    I would say it is fairly different, for these reasons:

    1) At the time, HIV was a death sentence. COVID has never been. There's a chance of dying from COVID, but it was never high, whereas with HIV at that time, it was roughly 100%.
    2) HIV was spread through sex and needles, COVID via breathing. Sex and needles may be desirable, but they are also optional. Breathing is not.
    3) People didn't stop having sex, but a whole lot of people changed their behavior (more condoms), while others pretended the risk wasn't there. In that way, HIV was very much like COVID.
    4) Moderna is about to start trials on an mRNA vaccine against HIV that shows some promise. Of course, everything ELSE that has shown promise against HIV has ultimately failed, but this is a novel approach. Wouldn't that be interesting?
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  20. #100
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    Sex and needles may be desirable
    ..though not at the same time
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill

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  21. #101
    Hyperactive Member Peter Porter's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Zvoni View Post
    Basically, the "original" thought/rhetoric was: "How can we recognize un-vac-ed people on the street (!!), so everyone else has a chance to avoid them?"
    Quote Originally Posted by Zvoni View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    Who exactly is asking that question and what possibilities are they suggesting, or is this just a concern in your head that you're projecting onto others? I'm absolutely not against unvaccinated people being excluded from certain places or activities in order to help prevent the spread of COVID but I'm assuming that people would have to show that they are vaccinated in order to be admitted, not be visibly marked so people can avoid them on the street. It sounds to me like you're making up a problem to be concerned or even outraged about. Some people are definitely inventing that problem here and in the US and, I imagine, elsewhere. If there was a suggestion that Australians had to wear a visible badge to show that they were vaccinated or unvaccinated then I would oppose that and I don't know anyone who wouldn't.
    Finally you got it.
    This was a real discussion in Germany. German TV news were full of them even asking random passersby their opinion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zvoni View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    Was it a real conversation though? What did people say? The fact that some TV station airs the equivalent of clickbait like this doesn't mean that it's a serious conversation. Maybe it was but, as I said, if that happened in Australia then everyone I know would not take it seriously. If someone asked that question without implying that there should be any outwardly visible indication and most or all people said that there shouldn't be any outwardly visible indication then it's not a conversation at all but really just a stunt.
    JMC, those conversations were shown by german TV-News-Stations to gauge the (then) current opinion of people.
    The TV-Stations didn't invent (and didn't comment) the conversation.
    I was witness to such conversations in my direct surroundings! With people i've known for a long time
    Zvoni, I'm half German (my real last name is German), and I live in Bavaria more than half my life. You know we Bavarians don't put up with crap, we're straight talkers, and not afraid to back someone to a corner.

    I haven't seen any conversation on TV about a way to identify the unvaccinated on the streets. From the center-left, center-right, right and left leaning major German papers, I haven't read anything about this kinda conversation. I haven't heard this subject on German televised news. You know as well me and all German citizens that our news networks avoids sensationalism like the plague compared to US news networks. But since you've seen this all over our news, and heard local conversations on the subject, why haven't you provided links to multiple sources on this subject, specially after comparing it to the Holocaust in another post of yours?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zvoni View Post
    --> This implies the opposite of "unrecovered, untested, and not vaccinated" as "undesirables". BUT: How would you recognize someone being either?

    In that context i asked my boss an "explosive" Question:
    "When is the german Governement starting to issue, you know, the yellow armbands with a 6-pointed star on it to those who are neither recovered, tested or vaccinated?"
    Dead silence was my answer......
    If you would've told your boss afterwards you heard on the news and on the streets arguments about identifying unvaccinated people on the streets, he would've believe you without you showing proof?

    Now I'm not calling you a liar. I'm sure you heard this somewhere on TV, print, also locally, but you make it seem it's so widespread that everyone knows! I live in Bavaria, and I haven't heard a peep about the subject to identify unvaccinated people on the streets locally, on TV, print, or on the internet, except for you bringing it to our attention.

    Zvoni, since the argument to identify unvaccinated on the streets is so wide spread as you say, please provide us with links to multiple news sources on this subject. This Bavarian is very interested, and I don't mean that sarcastically. I seriously would like to read or hear this.
    Last edited by Peter Porter; Sep 21st, 2021 at 10:19 PM.

  22. #102
    PowerPoster Zvoni's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    Peter,
    it's been some months (I think it was in May or June), and fortunately it didn't grow. I think the whole thing was over within a week, at least concerning public "appearance" (on TV, wherever).
    The thing is: my boss confirmed, that he heard/witnessed the same thing. And yes, i forgot to mention this.
    I never said it was widespread (or still is): My point was that even such a thought could crop up, and if not opposed could gain roots.

    If you got the impression that it was widespread (as in half the german population) then that is my mistake, and my statement was misleading.
    I apologize to everybody here who got that impression.

    As i said: The TV-Stations didn't invent it, they asked people on the street (!!), and it was the answer of the people on the street.
    As with everything in life: It came and went (fortunately), and luckily noone comments on it anymore. At least in public!

    To me, it's just aggravating that it can come up even this single time, because it proves that there still is this kind of thinking.
    Or those people might not even be aware that they were using that same damned rhetoric.
    As you know: You need one bad apple in the basket to start corrupting the rest.....

    No, i don't have any links, so i cannot prove anything.
    Believe me or don't. I don't care one way or other. I'm not trying to convince (!!) anyone.
    Just telling what i witnessed.
    As i also stated, that i fully respect the "nay"-sayers and their right to say "No" to mandatory vaccination. (Some are even friends of mine).

    As for Bavaria: I apologize if i insulted you in any way.
    To me (and a lot of others living in Baden Württemberg) Bavaria is still one of the most conservative countries in the german Federation with a lot of right-wingers.
    I know a lot of people from Bavaria, and some of them might even make the checkmark for AfD at the upcoming election.
    (Which doesn't mean, there are no people where i live who would make the checkmark there.....)

    EDIT: You asked for it, here it is (everything in german language)
    https://www.nordkurier.de/uckermark/...044642908.html
    https://bnn.de/mittelbaden/ortenau/r...g-corona-krise

    What i could find out: In Switzerland its even worse. They are publicly discussing what i said: To visibly mark "un-vac-ed" people
    https://guettis-fakten-blog.de/coron...erechtfertigt/
    https://www.wallstreet-online.de/nac...ng-ungeimpften
    Last edited by Zvoni; Sep 22nd, 2021 at 02:11 AM.
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  23. #103
    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Zvoni View Post
    If you got the impression that it was widespread (as in half the german population) then that is my mistake, and my statement was misleading.
    I apologize to everybody here who got that impression.
    You certainly did give that impression. The fact that an idea like this would come up is not surprising at all. To be frank, I'd be more surprised if it didn't come up. If you survey any large population then you'll get a whole range of different views and ideas. I'm fairly certain that I've heard the same thing mentioned here in Australia but I didn't mention it because I considered it not worth mentioning. I was brought up and immediately shot down by pretty much everyone. It sounds like the same thing happened in Germany but you considered far more significant than I did. Perhaps that's the result of your country's history but, in fact, I think i probably have a far better idea of what makes German people tick than you think I do, because it's pretty much the same as what makes everyone else tick.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zvoni View Post
    What i could find out: In Switzerland its even worse. They are publicly discussing what i said: To visibly mark "un-vac-ed" people
    https://guettis-fakten-blog.de/coron...erechtfertigt/
    https://www.wallstreet-online.de/nac...ng-ungeimpften
    I read a translated version of that first link and the only reference it contained to what you're talking about was this:
    In Switzerland, a politician is even said to have said that the unvaccinated must be identified. Such a proposal from Switzerland, I was somewhat surprised. The Jewish star is really not far away.
    So a politician is said to have said something, which is not even proof that they actually did say something. It seems to be the alarmist author who is bringing up the Jews in Germany, not necessarily that politician, if they even did say something. There's no indication of what form that identification would take or that it would necessarily be generally visible and no indication that anyone else took this one politician seriously. Again, there's no evidence that this isn't just an idea that even those voicing it wouldn't decide against when it came to actually implementing it or that the majority didn't immediately dismiss it as fringe extremism. Obviously we need to be vigilant in order to prevent the rise of such fringe extremism but you really did give the impression that this was something that was mainstream in Germany and it's hard to believe that you weren't aware of that.

    I have now taken a look at a translated version of the second link and it does support the claim that a Swiss politician did suggest a visible identifier but apparently it was specifically for groups like nurses and geriatric carers while on duty, not for the general public. Given that people routinely coming into contact with members of such groups are the most at risk from COVID, I don't see that as all that unreasonable. We are in the process of mandating vaccinations for aged-care workers here in Australia now, so no outward indication of vaccination status would be necessary anyway. Given how many old people have died during this pandemic though, I'm not sure that enabling them to know whether they are potentially exposing themselves to a virus that might kill them is all that unreasonable. My father is in his 80s and has diabetes, emphysema and a heart condition. If he contracts COVID, he's as good as dead. If he has to go to hospital for some reason, I'd feel better knowing that he could reduce his risk by avoiding being treated by unvaccinated staff. I'm not in favour of visibly marking people in general but, if you're going to allow unvaccinated people to work in those areas, I'm not at all against allowing patients/residents the choice to avoid them.

  24. #104
    PowerPoster Zvoni's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    JMC,
    agree with you for Health-Care employees.

    But look at this: https://www.straitstimes.com/singapo...rom-aug-16-bca

    Let's see how long it takes to spill over .....
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    I'd feel better knowing that he could reduce his risk by avoiding being treated by unvaccinated staff.
    You surely mean, out of concerns for the unvaccinated staff (to catch the virus from him)?

    Because in the "other direction", the probability that your father will catch the virus from vaccinated staff is much higher in the meantime (IMO).

    In germany we currently see polemic (outright propaganda, uttered by politicians), like:
    "This pandemic now became a pandemic of the unvaccinated".

    Whilst (IMO) the opposite is true these days.

    This pandemic will carry on into an endemic only, because of:
    - administering vaccinations at the wrong time despite knowing that these vaccines had known "leakage"
    .. (leaking vaccines are known to produce higher resistant strains pretty fast)
    - allowing "free mingling" of the vaccinated (accompanied by "not testing them anymore")
    - combined with the whole vaccination-process carried out over a longer time-period

    I'm quite convinced, that - if you take a random group of people "off the streets" these days -
    you will find more "carriers of the D-variant" who "got the shot" than carriers who are unvacced.

    It's not the unvacced you have to watch out for, it's the vaccinated, especially those who "carry on again" (with outright allowance and encouragment by politics and media) as if we're not in the midst of a pandemic.

    Olaf

  26. #106
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmidt View Post
    It's not the unvacced you have to watch out for, it's the vaccinated, especially those who "carry on again" (with outright allowance and encouragment by politics and media) as if we're not in the midst of a pandemic.

    Olaf
    While the unvacced still adhere to the "social" rules (Distance, Mask etc.).....

    I agree in general, that employees in health-care should make sure to not make it worse for the patients, including vaccination.

    But Olaf made me think: How can your father contract Covid from an unvacced, but HEALTHY nurse?
    Is it just because those POC-tests are so unreliable?
    If they are, then why were they even allowed to be an arbiter in the last months?

    The company i work for most important client is just across the border in France, and during the times when France was a hotspot, the company offered weekly PCR-tests (not those quick-tests!) to our employees who had to travel to france.
    AFAIK not a single one of those employees contracted Covid from there, and that's at a time the virus was really running rampant
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  27. #107
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    Re: Democracy

    I did a Sars rapid test today to get to work. It clearly states at the paper that it's 85% efficient and we all know it's close on 70% because of those idiots on TV and politics say it's not (OK there is the WHO directive but I wanted to bash them anyhow).
    So there is a chance of 30% me have covid, vaccinated or not. So how well we are protected by herding the uncaccinated I wonder since I have done the test and there is a 30% chance it's fake but the vaxbies have done no test so there is an unknown percentage of being covitaded right now.
    Or is this a Greece thing? Doing tests only to non vaxbies to get to work?
    .

  28. #108
    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by sapator View Post
    So there is a chance of 30% me have covid, vaccinated or not.
    It's amazing how many people don't understand how probability and statistics work. If the test really were 70% effective at detecting COVID then what that actually means is that, for every hundred people with COVID who were tested, 70 would get a positive result and 30 would get a negative result. It certainly doesn't mean that any person who gets a negative result has a 30% chance of being positive. For that to be the case, the rate of infection in the community would have to be well above 30%.

  29. #109
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    Re: Democracy

    No you are right. I wrote it wrong. But the case is vaccinated doing no tests at all.
    .

  30. #110
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by sapator View Post
    But the case is vaccinated doing no tests at all.
    Same rule here in germany.

    Being vaccinated is enough, for "mingle allowance".

    Olaf

  31. #111
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    Re: Democracy

    Crazy rules in Greece is that you can't go to cinema,theater,taverns but you can go to the gym with rapid test and public transplantation (metro,bus etc) without any covid test at all! It should have been the complete opposite if they would claim that they care about people health but they are idiots and medical company moppets IMHO.
    .

  32. #112
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    If the test really were 70% effective at detecting COVID then what that actually means is that, for every hundred people with COVID who were tested, 70 would get a positive result and 30 would get a negative result. It certainly doesn't mean that any person who gets a negative result has a 30% chance of being positive. For that to be the case, the rate of infection in the community would have to be well above 30%.
    I think it's actually the other way around (?). At least it was explained to me that way.

    If those tests are 70% reliable (note the different word i use, not effective), and i KNOW i'm not Covid-positive, i have a 30% chance to get a FALSE positive!

    as i said: it's the way it was explained to me. Might be utter garbage for all i know, having now read jmc's explanation
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  33. #113
    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by sapator View Post
    Crazy rules in Greece is that you can't go to cinema,theater,taverns but you can go to the gym with rapid test and public transplantation (metro,bus etc) without any covid test at all! It should have been the complete opposite if they would claim that they care about people health but they are idiots and medical company moppets IMHO.
    I would suggest that it's more about what's considered necessary and what isn't. The ability to exercise has received special attention here in Australia too, so the ability to go to gyms doesn't surprise me. Public transport is also a necessity, because many people wouldn't be able to get to work or doctors appointments are anywhere else without it. The other things you mentioned are purely recreation and thus not considered necessary. It's almost like they put more thought into it than you did. You may disagree with their logic but you could at least make the effort to work out what the logic is, rather than assuming that it's purely arbitrary.

  34. #114
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Zvoni View Post
    I think it's actually the other way around (?). At least it was explained to me that way.

    If those tests are 70% reliable (note the different word i use, not effective), and i KNOW i'm not Covid-positive, i have a 30% chance to get a FALSE positive!

    as i said: it's the way it was explained to me. Might be utter garbage for all i know, having now read jmc's explanation
    That may well be true. I have no idea what the specific numbers are but I was just using an example to show how wrong sapator's thinking was. If the actual issue is false positives rather than false negatives then that's inconvenient but not dangerous.

  35. #115
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Zvoni View Post
    But Olaf made me think: How can your father contract Covid from an unvacced, but HEALTHY nurse?
    Is it just because those POC-tests are so unreliable?
    If they are, then why were they even allowed to be an arbiter in the last months?
    I have no particular issue with regular testing in place of vaccination but I don't think that anyone really wants to be testing lots of people very often indefinitely. I don't see those who are against vaccination eagerly queuing up to be tested as a precautionary measure. There may well be people who are prepared to if the alternatives are get vaccinated or give up their job but I suspect people would start to complain about that soon enough.

  36. #116
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Zvoni View Post
    JMC,
    agree with you for Health-Care employees.

    But look at this: https://www.straitstimes.com/singapo...rom-aug-16-bca

    Let's see how long it takes to spill over .....
    There are already plenty of instances in specific environments where people who need to be treated differently are differentiated visually. If the rules for what people can and cannot do vary for vaccinated and unvaccinated people on a building site then it makes perfect sense for those people to be differentiated visually to minimise the chance of mistakes occurring. That's very different to marking people in the general population so people know who to avoid. It's not about people being undesirable, as you kept implying. It's about knowing who can do what without having to keep asking or maybe forgetting.

  37. #117
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmidt View Post
    I'm quite convinced
    And I'm quite convinced that you have become convinced based on, at best, a qualitative analysis, rather than a quantitative analysis. In that case, you really have a hypothesis at best, and no one should be proclaiming their being convinced by a hypothesis. I don't know what the actual numbers are let's say that a vaccinated person is 50% less likely to contract COVID and 50% less likely to infect another person. That means that if person A is COVID positive and they come into contact with person B and they come into contact with person C, person C is already 4 times less likely to get COVID from person B if person B is vaccinated. Health authorities would have the actual numbers and would have done an actual quantitative analysis. I would also imagine that they will continue to monitor numbers with systematic testing and adjust models accordingly. Do you have any actual facts to back up your conclusion, rather than the feeling that fewer overt symptoms means fewer voluntary tests and that must mean more cases?

  38. #118
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    I would suggest that it's more about what's considered necessary and what isn't. The ability to exercise has received special attention here in Australia too, so the ability to go to gyms doesn't surprise me. Public transport is also a necessity, because many people wouldn't be able to get to work or doctors appointments are anywhere else without it. The other things you mentioned are purely recreation and thus not considered necessary. It's almost like they put more thought into it than you did. You may disagree with their logic but you could at least make the effort to work out what the logic is, rather than assuming that it's purely arbitrary.
    Have you read what i wrote?
    Public transportation is putting people together like sardines in Greece. So if there is no covid test there it's the most possible way to get covid. All the other measures could be not taken at all and only taken public transport measures. I don't understand what you are talking about about my logic.
    .

  39. #119
    PowerPoster Zvoni's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    JMC,
    what i fail to see is the importance of vacced vs unvacced on a construction site.
    I just don't get it: an unvacced construction site worker stabs himself on a nail, and then what?
    Because he is visibly marked as unvacced, noone is going to help him for fear of infecting themselves?
    He's only to get help after the emergency helpers have put on their space-suits?

    That's utter crap, IMO, and flies into the face of everything the phrase "humanity" stands for.
    Innocent until proven guilty. Period!
    If he's healthy, he's healthy, that's what's important, vacced or unvacced doesn't matter.

    In Germany it's like this:
    For all intents and purposes, let's say, you have a basic training in first aid.
    In Germany it's MANDATORY to have such a training e.g. when applying for a driving license.
    For me personally, a first aid training was mandatory too, when i applied for my Skydive-Instructor-Rating.

    Now imagine you're witness to an accident, where someone is injured badly, and the only thing maybe saving his life is to give him mouth-to-mouth resuscitation until emergency services arrive,
    or he's badly bleeding (actually happened to me: I was a witness to an accident, with a lot of blood, where i did first aid. I had pretty bloody hands afterwards).

    Are you going to help him (And i don't mean you personally, but let's try to project to general public)? Or is it more like "Hey. He's marked as unvacced. I'm not going to risk it."

    In Germany, failure to provide assistance is a criminal offence, albeit the law states extenuating circumstances are to be considered.
    Are those extenuating circumstances applicable here? To me: No!
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  40. #120
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by sapator View Post
    Have you read what i wrote?
    Yes I did. Did you read what I wrote? If public transport is essential then it's essential, even if that means the risk of COVID. Of course it's not ideal to have people in close quarters at all but if doing that means denying large swathes of the population transport then that is simply not sustainable. It's a risk/reward calculation - everything is a risk/reward calculation at the moment - so the greater the reward, the greater the risk people are prepared to take.

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