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Thread: Democracy

  1. #41
    PowerPoster Zvoni's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    I disagree.
    "Selfish" was the behaviour of the people a year ago, who despite knowing it would spread the virus didn't stop their "normal" life (see my post above --> I do not want to go without <insert inane reason> during that time.)
    What do you think, how many so-called "Corona-Parties" german police had to break up?
    Remember how long it took the UK to implement "social distancing"?
    What do you think, who coined the phrase "Super-Spreader"?

    And now those are the same people crying "foul" if you say "No" to a mandatory vaccination.

    And those saying "no" NOW, are those who did everything correctly during the High-Time of the pandemic in 2020, but they are the ones, who are NOW the a**holes?

    I partially agree with your argument about private premises: Yes, if i own a restaurant, it's my decision who i'm going to let enter.
    But what do you think how many Restaurants, Hotels, Pubs, Night Clubs had to declare bankrupcy because they were FORCED by the Government to close for over a year, just because those "selfish" people (see above) couldn't/wouldn't go without whatever for FOUR DAMNED WEEKS!
    A whole branch of economy destroyed!
    And definitely not destroyed because a minority now STILL says no to vaccination.

    The Problem is not the "selfishness" of the "No-To-Vac"-Sayers NOW, the Problem was the selfishness of the "No-To-Social-Distancing"-Sayers THEN

    EDIT: reg. Vaccination is not about the vac itself, but about movement:
    Everyone i talked with (and those were a lot of people), who got vac-ed, told me: "Eh? I've done it to get out of the testing hassle, so i can move around as before (more or less)"
    Not a single one said, that he/she truly believed in the vaccine.
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  2. #42
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    I heard it was horse de wormers
    Turns out it's both. Great mods think alike

    I think that most of that is a crock
    To be fair, I hold the position that I'm pro the vaccine but against mandates. It is possible to hold that position but I agree with you that it's dissapearingly rare. Other than that I completely agree with your assessment. It's almost exclusively to do with owning the Libs.

    When is the german Governement starting to issue, you know, the yellow armbands with a 6-pointed star on it
    Dunno... but I sure as hell know you don't get to cite the holocaust while we're doing anything less than exterminating the unvaccinated en-masse. It's not the same thing.

    Anyone remember the US-History? Public restrooms divided by skin-color?
    Neither do you get to cite segregation while being vaccinated is a choice that might affect you for a year or while skin colour is not a choice and has affected generations. When you or your family actually get lynched, then your comparisons might hold water.

    If someone says "No" to getting vaccinated, she/he IS prosecuted the moment there is a sign on a door "only recovered/vaccinated allowed".
    I think you mean persecuted, not prosecuted (I'm not correcting that to score points - just to clear up potential confusion).

    Democracy is my right to say "No", and not get prosecuted for it!
    No it isn't. Democracy is not your right to freedom, it is your right to have a say in the restrictions we, as a society, place on all of our collective freedoms. If, as a society, we deem that you should not be afforded a particular freedom and you exercise it anyway, we, as a society, punish that transgression in a manner that we, as a society, deem fit. And you have a say in every part of that decision making process. The "wrong" being committed in this circumstance is not the punishment, it is the transgression.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Sep 20th, 2021 at 08:59 AM.
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  3. #43
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by digitalShaman View Post
    what an extraodinary example of fake news spread by legacy media that is what i meant with loss of the fourth pillar. you should propably do that "bit of research" on the drug in question. don't let them spoon feed you! question everything!
    That would be true, except that in this case I don't care. I have neither a horse nor a cow, and those animals that I don't have certainly don't have worms. Therefore, I have no use for the medicine and no reason to research it. However, I was willing to take just as much effort as was required to write a whimsical post on fake news.
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  4. #44
    PowerPoster Zvoni's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    OK,
    to get something cleared up:
    My Provocation with the yellow armband was not about a comparison with Nazi-Germany, it was because a that time (beginning of 2021) there was a serious discussion in Germany how to recognize those, who have NOT been vaccinated, on the street!
    And this can only be done in a visible way (Sticker/Label/whatever) --> hence, my quip with the yellow Armband (And to make something clear: I'm NOT in any way making fun of the Holocaust!), because the fastest way to shut someone up in Germany is actually to prove he's using the same rhetoric like the Nazis did 80 years ago!

    About segregation: Agreed. I accept that it's a poor comparison, it's just that it basically has the same "taste" (for lack of a better word).

    Thx about prosecution vs. persecution. English is not my first language.

    The Final: IF you have a say in the restrictions, then you have a say in the "freedoms" --> You can't have it both ways
    And if those freedoms are anchored in the constitution, then you have to change the constitution, and not pass regulations/laws violating those freedoms.
    As long as the freedoms are defined in the constitution, society, as you call it, can go and hang themselves.
    If society doesn't agree to those freedoms afforded to me by the constitution, they should change the constitution.
    Do i have to bring up the US-Constitution and the second amendment to it? And how many times someone has tried to change it?

    If i have a right to say "No", then you have to accept that i have the right, and that i use that right. Though, i accept, that i have to live with its consequences, but that's my own choice.
    It's the same, if someone has a constitutional right to carry a gun.
    I don't have to agree with this right, but i have to accept it.
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  5. #45
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Zvoni View Post
    I partially agree with your argument about private premises: Yes, if i own a restaurant, it's my decision who i'm going to let enter.
    Actually, no it isn't, and this is an important point: The law on this is far from settled, and may never truly BE settled. There are things you are freely allowed to discriminate against, and things that you are not freely allowed to discriminate, and the items that are in each camp are constantly changing.

    So, to claim that there is some absolute right, in this matter, is to ignore the law itself, as well as history.

    As for vaccine mandates, not only does the US have a very long history with them, we also have a very long history with fighting over them. They have been upheld by the Supreme Court repeatedly. Here's one article (really a transcript of an interview):

    https://www.npr.org/2021/08/29/10321...ccine-mandates

    I had another, but you need a subscription to the Wall Street Journal to read it, so that's not so good.

    However, you just have to go into the history of smoking, seat belts, and child seats to see how this has played out in various arenas. The bottom line is that what is allowed and what is not, and how people feel about it has changed over time. This fight over vaccinations is not new, nor are mandates. Society ends up making the rules, and in this case, anti-vaxx is likely to lose out, if history is any guide. The simple fact is that we often do give up liberties for some perceived common good.

    I would have also commented on likening a vaccine mandate to the holocaust, but Funky did a better job of it, so I won't bother.
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  6. #46
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Zvoni View Post
    Thx about prosecution vs. persecution. English is not my first language.
    I would expect that a large percentage of US citizens would have gotten those two words confused.
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  7. #47
    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Zvoni View Post
    About segregation: Agreed. I accept that it's a poor comparison, it's just that it basically has the same "taste" (for lack of a better word).
    It has the same "taste" because you are trying to make your situation seem worse than it is to justify your outrage at it. Like I said, some people in America (and elsewhere, I don't doubt) think that their situation has the same "taste" as the holocaust. Of course, if you call them out on it then they will also say they realise that it's not the same thing but, if that's the case, why did they make the comparison in the first place? Because they want to pretend that their situation is worse than it is to justify their (over)reaction. If the facts are on your side then you don't have make these pretences.

  8. #48
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    Re: Democracy

    You can turn it around, spin it in circles have a covid party but one thins is certain. EU law does not allow mandatory vaccinations.
    Now in Greece the constitution does not allow mandatory vax , so they just called it health emergency, bypassed the constitution and EU legislation and opposed it to medical personal. From my point this is totally unacceptable and they should hang, from another ones point this is acceptable and they should get a medal about it.
    Now I'm not sure in what form of democracy putting something in your body without wanting to is accepted. That is what the Nazis did. Even on seat belts , smoking etc you get a fine, you don't get kicked out of your job. I'm having a dj vu...
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  9. #49
    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by sapator View Post
    That is what the Nazis did. ... I'm having a dj vu...
    Oh yeah, it's the holocaust all over again. NOT! In case you haven't been reading previous posts, we've established that that's a moronic way of thinking. If you want to be taken seriously, don't pretend that you're being treated like a Jew in the 1940s because people want you to get a vaccine to protect you and everyone else from a potentially deadly disease.

  10. #50
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    Re: Democracy

    I admit I haven't read all the posts.
    I agree on not been the exact same thing as the Nazis. I should have known as many of my relatives "felt" the Nazi, "freedom", nevertheless is as close as they can do it in today's standard. Even if the vaccine made you spiderman it still would not must have been mandatory (is that a correct sentence? I gambled it :P ). We can talk about the "potential" deadly disease in the covid threat. Would be happy to.
    And since when have I been taken seriously? I'm loosing my touch?!

    Ah, I get what you read. Dj vu meant another mandatory seat belts and such on another thread, not the Nazis.
    .

  11. #51
    PowerPoster Zvoni's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    I dont know how many times i have to repeat it (and sapator nailed it):
    im not likening a mandatory vaccination to the holocaust.
    Im likening the used arguments TODAY to the rhetoric used then, because its basically the same, with just two-three different words.
    Im likening it to BYPASSING a constitution to FORCE people to do something that the constitution grants them the rights to say NO to it!

    because with all those restrictions they want to impose on the nay-sayers, they are isolating the healthy. They are isolating those who did everything correctly ADHERING to regulations a year ago, and today (distance, facemask, you name it). They are still adhering to that!

    and you want to impose restrictions on people who did nothing wrong?
    IMO, thats not even a slap in the face of democracy, its Mike Tysons right fist!

    because if they bypass the constitution for this, whats next? And there will definitely be a next
    Last edited by Zvoni; Sep 20th, 2021 at 11:55 AM.
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  12. #52
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Zvoni View Post
    I dont know how many times i have to repeat it (and sapator nailed it):
    im not likening a mandatory vaccination to the holocaust.
    Im likening the used arguments TODAY to the rhetoric used then, because its basically the same, with just two-three different words.
    Im likening it to BYPASSING a constitution to FORCE people to do something that the constitution grants them the rights to say NO to it!

    because with all those restrictions they want to impose on the nay-sayers, they are isolating the healthy. They are isolating those who did everything correctly ADHERING to regulations a year ago, and today (distance, facemask, you name it). They are still adhering to that!

    and you want to impose restrictions on people who did nothing wrong?
    IMO, thats not even a slap in the face of democracy, its Mike Tysons right fist!

    because if they bypass the constitution for this, whats next? And there will definitely be a next
    I'm assuming you just aren't aware that vaccine mandates have been proven constitutional already.

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...solid-science/
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  13. #53
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Zvoni View Post
    Im likening it to BYPASSING a constitution to FORCE people to do something that the constitution grants them the rights to say NO to it!
    Does it? I've never read the EU constitution (or German, or whichever one you are referring to), but the US constitution is worded with sufficient vagueness that it is very much open to interpretation. Vaccines are not mentioned anywhere in it, and I believe health is also not addressed in any way. That has made the argument a bit slippery on both sides, since both sides have to base their arguments on what IS in the constitution. The US Supreme Court has always sided with the case FOR mandatory vaccines, but those cases are quite old, and I'm not sure what basis they used for their decision, or which parts of the constitution were said to apply.

    It may have been a negative argument, such as, "the constitution doesn't say that the government lacks the right and therefore they can do this." Or, there may have been some argument based on some clause that's in there, perhaps something about defense of the common good.

    I think the more recent rulings, which all seem to have dealt with private companies imposing mandates, probably have to do with the rights of the company to set the rules of employment, but once again you get into some slightly slippery ground. There are rules that employers can impose, and rules that employers can't impose. The latter are probably those that violate some law, though I certainly don't know all the nuances.

    Does the EU constitution have some clause about health, or something otherwise relevant?
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  14. #54
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    Re: Democracy

    Yeaii little China emerges!
    But I don't think we where talking about the states. Frankly from what I've read here and especially from Shaggy that does not hold back, I'm amazed you are still not vaccinated all people, cats and dogs, aliens, the thin red line, jumbo Joe, 3 constellation far back and all the dead president skelets.
    Not disrespect to any USAer but there is a huge gap between the Atlantic, I think we are on a completely different level in Europe for better or for worse.
    .

  15. #55
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    Re: Democracy

    Don't think because Europe does not mandate vax they will not enforce a Green pass. That is another issue. We are not saint, if that was let to believe by me, we are just different.

    Here, if you really wanna burn your brain..
    https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-cont...1%3A211%3AFULL
    .

  16. #56
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Zvoni View Post
    and you want to impose restrictions on people who did nothing wrong?
    IMO, thats not even a slap in the face of democracy, its Mike Tysons right fist!

    because if they bypass the constitution for this, whats next? And there will definitely be a next
    Not really. One might argue that there has always been this, and that some rules are added and others taken away. That's what politics is all about, in the end. It all comes down to who's ox is getting gored.

    We live with these things all the time. Sometimes we like the rules, sometimes we dislike the rules, and sometimes we neither know nor care about the rules. For example, you must have a certain license to be a hairdresser in this state, I think. I'm not even entirely sure, because I don't care all that much. It's probably a bad idea. I've heard the arguments about why it's a bad idea, and they do seem reasonable, but I just don't care enough to do anything about it.

    That doesn't mean they'll be coming for me next. We have a system of rules which includes a means to challenge rules you don't like. That doesn't mean you will win. If you can't make a good enough case you will lose.
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  17. #57
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by sapator View Post
    Don't think because Europe does not mandate vax they will not enforce a Green pass. That is another issue. We are not saint, if that was let to believe by me, we are just different.
    Yeah, it does sound like you might end up with such a pass. That's just another difference between the two (the gap, as you said, which IS the Atlantic). The idea of such a pass was pretty thoroughly rejected by all sides, over here. Which puts us into an interesting position: We might mandate a vaccine while not coming up with any way to demonstrate compliance.
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  18. #58
    Hyperactive Member Peter Porter's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    I live in Germany, and I don't have a problem with restrictions to protect the public health. During the summer, I ate in restaurant's beer garden without a mask. With a mask when shopping for groceries, it's only on for an hour tops. Shoe store, half hour. Doctor and dental, about an hour and a half.

    I can deal with wearing a mask that long, but hopefully things change for the better soon.

    I can understand people feeling less free, walking around lookin' all the same.
    Last edited by Peter Porter; Sep 20th, 2021 at 03:46 PM.

  19. #59
    Hyperactive Member Peter Porter's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Zvoni View Post
    and you want to impose restrictions on people who did nothing wrong?
    IMO, thats not even a slap in the face of democracy, its Mike Tysons right fist!
    Zvoni, if Germany opened everything up to the public, and hundreds of thousands people die like in the states, what course of action should they take then that citizens wont feel tramples on their freedom?
    Last edited by Peter Porter; Sep 20th, 2021 at 04:01 PM.

  20. #60
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    Re: Democracy

    Sorry to barge in, I would like to state that there is a justice court in US that I enjoy viewing.
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC59...0Jj653dC4laEJw
    .

  21. #61
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by sapator View Post
    Sorry to barge in, I would like to state that there is a justice court in US that I enjoy viewing.
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC59...0Jj653dC4laEJw
    That's a pretty funny clip. That pizza guy sounds like he's stoned even in court.
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  22. #62
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    Re: Democracy

    Ye but the judge is so kind.if you watch other clips. Wish there where more people like him.
    .

  23. #63
    Hyperactive Member Peter Porter's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by sapator View Post
    Sorry to barge in, I would like to state that there is a justice court in US that I enjoy viewing.
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC59...0Jj653dC4laEJw
    And I bet he ran a red light to get to work after that hearing. LOL!

    Thanks for the video! It helped me see that my comment before was too pointed (which wasn't intentional), so I edited it.

  24. #64
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    Re: Democracy

    No problem. Glad to have something positive for a change as this all covid thing is making us a little harser either we perceive that or not.
    .

  25. #65
    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Zvoni View Post
    I dont know how many times i have to repeat it (and sapator nailed it):
    im not likening a mandatory vaccination to the holocaust.
    Maybe stop bringing up Navis then. Why is that the go-to example? We all know why. The end result was so horrific that any mention of that brings with it fear of that same end result.

  26. #66
    PowerPoster Zvoni's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Porter View Post
    Zvoni, if Germany opened everything up to the public, and hundreds of thousands people die like in the states, what course of action should they take then that citizens wont feel tramples on their freedom?
    Peter, i never said anything about opening up everything WITHOUT rules.
    What i'm opposed to are restrictions like "you're not vaccinated. You don't get entry to the supermarket anymore" and similiar.
    A year ago people were not vaccinated at all and they went to the grocers, adhering to Rules (Distance, Mask etc.) and it worked.

    Basically, for me, it boils down to declaring un-vac-ed people as "undesirables", and german history has shown how it can degrade into a frenzy (and yes, i'm aware that i'm exaggerating)
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  27. #67
    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Zvoni View Post
    i'm aware that i'm exaggerating
    But you keep on doing it, because you know that the facts alone are not enough to support your position.

  28. #68
    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Zvoni View Post
    A year ago people were not vaccinated at all and they went to the grocers, adhering to Rules (Distance, Mask etc.) and it worked.
    A big part of the problem is that people want to get rid of the rules as much as possible and get back to life as it was as much as possible, while the people who are against masks and social distancing and any other of those rules also form a large part of the antivax population.

  29. #69
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    But you keep on doing it, because you know that the facts alone are not enough to support your position.
    His position is, that the "big problem" at some point *was* started "small" (in historic "Nazi-germany").

    And how it was started (and "gets started" in any country with fashistoid tendencies, usually via "conformity-media-outlets") is,
    by "partmentalizing your own citizenry", splitting them up in "us" and "them"
    (with lower rights, if you find yourself in the "them"=="evil" group).

    Olaf

  30. #70
    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmidt View Post
    His position is, that the "big problem" at some point *was* started "small" (in historic "Nazi-germany").

    And how it was started (and "gets started" in any country with fashistoid tendencies, usually via "conformity-media-outlets") is,
    by "partmentalizing your own citizenry", splitting them up in "us" and "them"
    (with lower rights, if you find yourself in the "them"=="evil" group).

    Olaf
    I know what his point is but if he could make it without knowingly exaggerating then maybe it could be taken seriously and discussed reasonably. When one brings Nazis into the conversation one is knowingly going for an emotional reaction.

  31. #71

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    Re: Democracy

    i do understand both sides and i agree that a jew/nazi comparison is something that should not be made.
    But the thing is, that some stuff that is pushed through the media these days has a very, very bad taste and it does have some similarities.
    Such as:
    - unvaccinated people are threating our lives
    - unvaccinated people are dangerous
    - unvaccinated people should not be treated for COVID if no beds are available
    - unvaccinated people shall pay for the strain they put on the healthcare system
    - unvaccinated people shall not get paid unemployment pays if they do not take a job offer because the employer demand vaccination
    - unvaccinated people shall not get paid for the time of quarantine

    these and other ideas are pushed into peoples heads by media.

    It might be also our history here in europe that made us very sensitive in this respect, maybe for you americans these ideas make sense. but i think that if we let this continue, we are going in a dark direction.
    Last edited by digitalShaman; Sep 21st, 2021 at 03:03 AM.

  32. #72
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    IF you have a say in the restrictions, then you have a say in the "freedoms" --> You can't have it both ways
    I haven't tried to have it both ways. You said this:-
    Democracy is my right to say "No", and not get prosecuted for it!
    You were not arguing that you should have a say in what freedoms you were afforded, you were arguing that you should have unfettered freedom. That's not democracy, that's anarchy (which is almost certainly followed by autocracy).

    Im likening it to BYPASSING a constitution to FORCE people to do something that the constitution grants them the rights to say NO to it!
    The US constitution does not prohibit vaccine mandates. The EU doesn't have a constitution but nothing in EU law prevents them either. Fact Check I'm not going to dwell on that, though, because as I've said before, I don't agree with a vaccine mandate either.

    On the other hand I have absolutely no problem with the concept of a vaccine passport. Living in a democracy means living with the consequences of the choices you make and, while I wouldn't categorise not being allowed into night clubs and restaurants as a "punishment" as such, it is a consequence of transgressing a norm that society is asking for. I believe you agreed to that principle here:-
    If i have a right to say "No", then you have to accept that i have the right, and that i use that right. Though, i accept, that i have to live with its consequences, but that's my own choice.
    (though you do not have an inalienable right to say no)

    you want to impose restrictions on people who did nothing wrong?
    Yes, that's the nature of democracy. Contrary to what you're trying to express, you do not have some inalienable right to unfettered freedoms and whether you're done anything wrong plays no part in that. Laws aren't punishments, they're boundaries.
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  33. #73
    PowerPoster Zvoni's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    But you keep on doing it, because you know that the facts alone are not enough to support your position.
    To prevent a group of right-wingers to bypass the constitution (and creating a precedent!) is not enough to support my position? Is not fact enough?
    Be happy, that you live in a remote country like Australia.....

    "Funny" note: Yesterday was the last TV-"Triel" (3-way Duel) for the upcoming governmental elections in Germany.
    All three candidates confirmed, that mandatory vaccination IS NOT possible (allowed) in Germany! Period!
    People have a right to say "No" to vaccination, and i have to respect that right (if i agree with their stance doesn't matter one jot!).
    I have to respect it if they excersize their right!

    Fact: Enforcing social rules worked! (way before a vaccine was available)
    --> And there were those idiots making fun of those rules, getting infected (and infecting others). Where is the "Transgression"-Discussion for them?
    I'm going to exaggerate again:
    While knowing of being infected they still had contact with other people (and infecting them). I'm trying to find (and failing) the difference to "attempted homicide".

    Fact: The available vaccines DO NOT WORK 100% ("Delta" anyone?)
    Fact: In Germany people have a right to say "No" to vaccination. Period!
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  34. #74
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    Maybe stop bringing up Navis then.
    Yeah! The Kriegsmarine were rubbish!
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill

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  35. #75
    PowerPoster Zvoni's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    I haven't tried to have it both ways. You said this:-
    You were not arguing that you should have a say in what freedoms you were afforded, you were arguing that you should have unfettered freedom. That's not democracy, that's anarchy (which is almost certainly followed by autocracy).
    I didn't say that either. I said i'm not going to allow my freedom granted by constitution to be trampled.

    The US constitution does not prohibit vaccine mandates. The EU doesn't have a constitution but nothing in EU law prevents them either. Fact Check I'm not going to dwell on that, though, because as I've said before, I don't agree with a vaccine mandate either.
    How do you figure that? -->
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty...ion_for_Europe
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charte...European_Union
    Bold Red --> You did see the "Verdict"?
    "The council passed a resolution about mandatory vaccination and vaccine certificates, but its advice is not legally binding.  "

    On the other hand I have absolutely no problem with the concept of a vaccine passport. Living in a democracy means living with the consequences of the choices you make and, while I wouldn't categorise not being allowed into night clubs and restaurants as a "punishment" as such, it is a consequence of transgressing a norm that society is asking for. I believe you agreed to that principle here:-
    (though you do not have an inalienable right to say no)
    Me neither, since i have one. And pretty much every german have one of those yellow paper-booklets since childhood.

    Yes, that's the nature of democracy. Contrary to what you're trying to express, you do not have some inalienable right to unfettered freedoms and whether you're done anything wrong plays no part in that. Laws aren't punishments, they're boundaries.
    Agreed. And they apply to both sides!
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  36. #76

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    Re: Democracy

    btw: i dont know how many of you are aware, but it looks like with Evergrande we will soon get a global economic hit like 2008. this will put another can of oil into the fire.

  37. #77
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    How do you figure that?
    It's not a constitution, it's a treaty. There's a very big difference. The EU wanted a constitution but member states refused to ratify it.

    You did see the "Verdict"?
    Yes, it runs exactly counter to your argument and I think you may be miss-reading it. The EU passed a resolution saying that vaccines should not be mandatory but it's not legally binding. Member states are free to ignore it.

    Your argument seems to have shifted, though, and you're now citing the German constitution rather than an EU one. I had a google for "does the German constitution prohibit vaccine mandates" (because I honestly don't know) and I got no useful results so I assume it doesn't. Could you cite the part of the German constitution that does this?



    Edit>Oh, also, Godwins Law
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Sep 21st, 2021 at 03:44 AM.
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  38. #78
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    i dont know how many of you are aware, but it looks like with Evergrande we will soon get a global economic hit like 2008. this will put another can of oil into the fire.
    Yeah, I've been watching that. It doesn't look good and could well lead to another global crisis.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill

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  39. #79
    PowerPoster Zvoni's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    It's not a constitution, it's a treaty. There's a very big difference. The EU wanted a constitution but member states refused to ratify it.

    Yes, it runs exactly counter to your argument and I think you may be miss-reading it. The EU passed a resolution saying that vaccines should not be mandatory but it's not legally binding. Member states are free to ignore it.

    Your argument seems to have shifted, though, and you're now citing the German constitution rather than an EU one. I had a google for "does the German constitution prohibit vaccine mandates" (because I honestly don't know) and I got no useful results so I assume it doesn't. Could you cite the part of the German constitution that does this?



    Edit>Oh, also, Godwins Law
    I never cited European constitution. Always german (though i admit, i haven't specified it as the german constitution)
    What you asked for: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/e..._gg.html#p0023
    Article 2 - second sentence

    Apparently, there is a current assessment conducted by german constitutional supreme court, which quotes said article, and states,
    that a violation of the basic right is given, since the insertion of a needle as well as the injection of a vaccine is a violation of physical integrity.
    (Sorry, couldn't find an english version of this document, but maybe some other germans here can confirm, what i said).
    Please note, that this assessment is specifically about mandatory vaccination of children, because current vaccines are deemed not safe enough for children of 15 years and younger.
    One System to rule them all, One IDE to find them,
    One Code to bring them all, and to the Framework bind them,
    in the Land of Redmond, where the Windows lie
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  40. #80
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    Re: Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Zvoni View Post
    All three candidates confirmed, that mandatory vaccination IS NOT possible (allowed) in Germany! Period!
    So what are you whining about then? If it's unconstitutional then it's not going to happen. What's the problem?

    Of course, that something is unconstitutional means that the government can't enact a law to enforce it but that doesn't necessarily mean that private companies can't make requirements when it comes to their premises. I don't know what the specifics might be in Germany but if it is the case, as I suspect, that individuals have the right to say no to vaccines but companies and other individuals have the right to say no to unvaccinated individuals then you have an equal responsibility to respect both, so maybe do that.

    Also, other countries don't necessarily have a constitutional barrier to vaccine mandates so you have an equal responsibility to respect their governments' rights to impose them.

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