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Thread: I think VB6 is much a better tool/language than VB.NET

  1. #281
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: I think VB6 is much a better tool/language than VB.NET

    Ah well. I'm done speaking with you for good. You're a troll.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

  2. #282
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: I think VB6 is much a better tool/language than VB.NET

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Well...
    Even if we assume it works correctly, it produces misleading data. &hA1AD implies that the low byte is AD yet if you push it as ADA1 in memory which is to say AD is the low byte and A1 is the high byte, when you pass that through a conversion function to convert it to Unicode, it's going to produce the wrong output.

    Maybe Asc/Chr works the way it should, maybe it doesn't. It doesn't really matter because one shouldn't really be treating characters as Integers anyway. You will just make things harder on yourself. Treat them as they are, an array of bytes and let encoders/decoders worry about how to interpret those bytes.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

  3. #283
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    Re: I think VB6 is much a better tool/language than VB.NET

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    Ah well. I'm done speaking with you for good. You're a troll.
    Well, I apologize to you for the mocking comment I just made. You and I have different ways of thinking. We are doing different things, just like some people are making sophisticated Swiss watches and some are making huge 10,000-ton tankers.

    I'm pushing VB6 forward in my way, you can try to kill VB6 in your way.
    Last edited by SearchingDataOnly; Sep 2nd, 2021 at 04:45 AM.

  4. #284

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    Re: I think VB6 is much a better tool/language than VB.NET

    Round 2 !
    By the power invested in me, all the threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones - no arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign.

  5. #285
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: I think VB6 is much a better tool/language than VB.NET

    lol.....You guys are loving this aren't you....
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

  6. #286
    PowerPoster Zvoni's Avatar
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    Re: I think VB6 is much a better tool/language than VB.NET

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    round 2 !
    ding ding ding!
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  7. #287

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    Re: I think VB6 is much a better tool/language than VB.NET

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    lol.....You guys are loving this aren't you....
    Yes, this is what this thread is for. You do want to teach SDO, you are almost an evangelist and he really does not want to learn. He is intransigent and stubborn. He goes his own way. He will not accept what you have to say. You two now have too much history.

    Enjoying it too as I am actually learning things as the contest pans out.

    From my point of view, you are currently sitting on your seat at the corner of the ring (being fanned by a towel) wondering whether it makes sense to carry on the fight.

    We all knew you would get to this point at some time, it was just a matter of how long it would take. I have tried to tell you several times that there is no point in continuing so passionately and so continuously too.

    Your passion is easily equalled by SDO's stubborness. I have respect to you both. It was a hard fought battle. I am pleased that you two almost kept it civil.

    "It ain't what you do it's the way that you do it, that's what gets results."
    Last edited by yereverluvinuncleber; Sep 2nd, 2021 at 07:04 AM.
    By the power invested in me, all the threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones - no arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign.

  8. #288
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: I think VB6 is much a better tool/language than VB.NET

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    Yes, this is what this thread is for. You do want to teach SDO, you are almost an evangelist and he really does not want to learn. He is intransigent and stubborn. He goes his own way. He will not accept what you have to say. You two now have too much history.
    You know there is a larger point to be made on this too. This little spat we had here is exactly why so many illustrious programmers, especially from the world of C/C++ look down on BASIC programmers and treat BASIC with such disdain. BASIC lets you get away with doing so many wrong things that it creates a lot of very bad habits in programmers and as this thread showed, you can't even tell them about it. They will fight you tooth and nail if you point out these things. 25 years he has been using Chr when he should have been using ChrW. Only a language like BASIC lets you get away with foolishness like that for so long.

    Even I am not immune to this. I have so many bad habits myself from all the decades I've been programming in one form of BASIC or another. Whenever I dip into something a little more strict, all my bad habits get lit up like a Christmas tree by the compiler. A very recent example I became more aware of is me not always bracketing my function calls. VB.Net allows you to get away with it but C# throws all kinds of tantrums about it. I literally have to re-train my muscle memory to do the proper thing so the C# compiler stops cramping my flow every time I slip up.

    One of the worst habits I ever had from QuickBasic was not declaring all of my variables. QuickBasic provided a way to specify a default type. DefInt A-Z would tell QuickBasic to default all undeclared types to Integer. I relied on this a lot and took that habit with me into VB2 all the way into VB6. Half my variables in my earliest VB6 programs were Variants because I wasn't in the habit of explicitly declaring variables. Thankfully, I was able to train myself out of that habit completely.

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    Enjoying it too as I am actually learning things as the contest pans out.
    Well at least someone is getting some kind of value from all this. Can't be mad about that.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

  9. #289
    Frenzied Member PlausiblyDamp's Avatar
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    Re: I think VB6 is much a better tool/language than VB.NET

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    Yes, this is what this thread is for. You do want to teach SDO, you are almost an evangelist and he really does not want to learn. He is intransigent and stubborn. He goes his own way. He will not accept what you have to say. You two now have too much history.
    I came to this conclusion earlier in this thread where SDO was asking for examples of complex software written in .Net and I suggested SharpDevelop (Post 151) and got a response of
    But what I want to say is that it is far from being a product similar to VisualStudio.Net (VS2002-VS2019). Not only that, SharpDevelop is far from the user experience of VB6-IDE. Some experienced VB6 developers can use VB6 to make better products than SharpDevelop. So the example you cited cannot convince me.
    which given how complex sharp develop really is demonstrated a complete unwillingness to actually look at what I suggested, despite it being in a response to a request from SDO himself. He even changed his own request from being about showing complex software in .Net to an IDE comparison. This is stubbornness for the sake of it. (Post #152)

    After pushing further he admitted that he only looked at an entire IDE for ten minutes before dismissing it in that way and then changing the argument to criticise VSCode and ramble on about his self developed scripting language - completely ignoring everything about SharpDevelop that proves complex software can indeed be written in .Net (Post #155)

    His request was never about SharpDevelop or VSCode being better than VB6's IDE, it was about writing complex code in .Net - when presented proof this could be done SDO just dug his heels in, changed the argument to one comparing SharDevelop to VB6 and ignored the original request.

    SDO is never going to change his mind, every argument is approached with the attitude that VB6 is the best tool and nothing will convince him otherwise.
    Last edited by PlausiblyDamp; Sep 2nd, 2021 at 08:23 AM.

  10. #290
    Fanatic Member Delaney's Avatar
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    Re: I think VB6 is much a better tool/language than VB.NET

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    BASIC lets you get away with doing so many wrong things that it creates a lot of very bad habits in programmers and as this thread showed, you can't even tell them about it.
    I agree fully with that. The best example in .net is: the option strict is off by default and most people are not even aware of that. it should be ON by default!!
    The second I think of is the mix people (beginner) does between the event and the method associated with it. in VB.net, this is automatically set : private XXX_clic(....) handle XXX.clic where in other languages you have to link the method to the event by yourself so you are much more aware of both notions.
    and the third one I see is the heritage from previous languages you have in VB.net like VbCrlf and Environment.NewLine (not sure it is the best example but you see what I mean).
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    Re: I think VB6 is much a better tool/language than VB.NET

    Quote Originally Posted by PlausiblyDamp View Post
    I came to this conclusion earlier in this thread where SDO was asking for examples of complex software written in .Net and I suggested SharpDevelop (Post 151) and got a response of which given how complex sharp develop really is demonstrated a complete unwillingness to actually look at what I suggested, despite it being in a response to a request from SDO himself. He even changed his own request from being about showing complex software in .Net to an IDE comparison. This is stubbornness for the sake of it. (Post #152)

    After pushing further he admitted that he only looked at an entire IDE for ten minutes before dismissing it in that way and then changing the argument to criticise VSCode and ramble on about his self developed scripting language - completely ignoring everything about SharpDevelop that proves complex software can indeed be written in .Net (Post #155)

    His request was never about SharpDevelop or VSCode being better than VB6's IDE, it was about writing complex code in .Net - when presented proof this could be done SDO just dug his heels in, changed the argument to one comparing SharDevelop to VB6 and ignored the original request.

    SDO is never going to change his mind, every argument is approached with the attitude that VB6 is the best tool and nothing will convince him otherwise.
    You think that SharpDevelop is a very complicated software because you have never seen really complicated software (SharpDevelop is less than one-tenth of VSCode's complexity).

    What I think of as complex software is something like this:
    Chrome Browser (super complex)
    VisualStudio.Net (super complex)
    Photoshop (complex)
    MATLAB (complex)
    AutoCAD (complex)
    VSCode (complex)
    VB6-IDE (complex)
    ...
    ...

    SharpDevelop (lower-moderate)
    ...
    ...
    Notepad++ (simple)
    Last edited by SearchingDataOnly; Sep 2nd, 2021 at 09:06 AM.

  12. #292

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    Re: I think VB6 is much a better tool/language than VB.NET

    Quote Originally Posted by Delaney View Post
    the option strict is off by default and most people are not even aware of that. it should be ON by default!.
    I didn't know that though I am sure I always set it to ON.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delaney View Post
    the event handles ... in VB.net, this is automatically set : private XXX_clic(....) handle XXX.click
    This really annoys me too. I think the automatic addition or deletion of these handles once set is a mistake. If you are going to do something do it properly and be consistent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delaney View Post
    heritage from previous languages you have in VB.net like VbCrlf and Environment.NewLine
    Without the heritage then VB.NET belies what it was meant to be, the natural progression from BASIC especially VB6. I don't know why these things were ever introduced in the first place, perhaps as a sop to VB6ers in order to pretend one could actually migrate from VB6 to VB.NET. They should really have made a cleaner break having failed to be VB6. It is now neither one thing or the other with this rubbish left in.
    By the power invested in me, all the threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones - no arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign.

  13. #293
    Frenzied Member PlausiblyDamp's Avatar
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    Re: I think VB6 is much a better tool/language than VB.NET

    Quote Originally Posted by SearchingDataOnly View Post
    You think that SharpDevelop is a very complicated software because you have never seen really complicated software (SharpDevelop is less than one-tenth of VSCode's complexity).

    What I think of as complex software is something like this:
    Chrome Browser (super complex)
    VisualStudio.Net (super complex)
    Photoshop (very complex)
    MATLAB (very complex)
    AutoCAD (very complex)
    VSCode (complex)
    VB6-IDE (complex)
    ...
    ...

    SharpDevelop (lower-moderate)
    ...
    ...
    Notepad++ (simple)
    So VB6-IDE is complex, but SharpDevelop is less complex, despite SharpDevelop doing pretty much everything the VB6 IDE does (code editing, intellisense, debugging, forms designers, extensibility model, etc.) as well as supporting multiple languages, unit testing, etc.

    So, how does a tool that does more than VB6 can do somehow seem less complex? I honestly want to know how you rationalise this - could you explain what is more complex about the VB6 IDE compared to SharpDevelop?

  14. #294

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    Re: I think VB6 is much a better tool/language than VB.NET

    Quote Originally Posted by PlausiblyDamp View Post
    could you explain what is more complex about the VB6 IDE compared to SharpDevelop?
    I think that is pushing the direction rather off-thread but regardless...

    Gloves on, mouthshield in place, get ready - ding ding, ROUND 2!
    By the power invested in me, all the threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones - no arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign.

  15. #295
    PowerPoster techgnome's Avatar
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    Re: I think VB6 is much a better tool/language than VB.NET

    I go to the VB Forums, and a hockey game breaks out.... Next I suppose I go to a hockey game and a VB6-.NET war breaks out...

    -tg
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  16. #296
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: I think VB6 is much a better tool/language than VB.NET

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    You know there is a larger point to be made on this too. This little spat we had here is exactly why so many illustrious programmers, especially from the world of C/C++ look down on BASIC programmers and treat BASIC with such disdain.
    I really don't think that's true. You are attributing lofty reasons to people who don't deserve it.
    A very recent example I became more aware of is me not always bracketing my function calls. VB.Net allows you to get away with it but C# throws all kinds of tantrums about it. I literally have to re-train my muscle memory to do the proper thing so the C# compiler stops cramping my flow every time I slip up.
    You see this as a negative about VB? That's a negative about C#. That language carries with it a bunch of archaic anachronisms from the dawn of C and computers in general. Instead of making a language that is more focused on quickly and efficiently getting things done, C# is focused on elevating and perpetuating those anachronisms in ways that hinder productivity. Only a person more focused on form over function could see that as a good thing.
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    Re: I think VB6 is much a better tool/language than VB.NET

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    That language carries with it a bunch of {archaic anachronisms} from the dawn of C and computers in general;
    Once you have encountered the squirly brackets and semi colons and coded a few programs with them, they aren't as alien and not so bad. In any case the majority of 'real' programming that is closer to the metal, oses and the vast majority of o/s utilities on multiple types of o/s are all written with those squirly things. So, if you want to really understand lower level programming in general you need to get familiar. Its a done deal, no use crying about it.
    By the power invested in me, all the threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones - no arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign.

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    Re: I think VB6 is much a better tool/language than VB.NET

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    I really don't think that's true. You are attributing lofty reasons to people who don't deserve it.
    C programmers are definitely bastards. I know a few.
    By the power invested in me, all the threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones - no arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign.

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    Re: I think VB6 is much a better tool/language than VB.NET

    Quote Originally Posted by PlausiblyDamp View Post
    SharpDevelop
    I liked SharpDevelop, it was on my radar for a long time and when I set out to use it, they stopped developing it. That sort of thing has happened to me a lot, VB6 included. Is it me? Do I smell or something?

    IF they had chosen VB6 as the chosen language we could have developed it further and it would have been very useful for us VB6ers in our quest for an IDE replacement. Instead it was written in .NET and we all know what a bunch of apathetes the VB.NET crowd are... They couldn't even keep it going and the source is code is sitting there ready to go. Typical.
    Last edited by yereverluvinuncleber; Sep 2nd, 2021 at 10:26 AM.
    By the power invested in me, all the threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones - no arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign.

  20. #300
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: I think VB6 is much a better tool/language than VB.NET

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    This really annoys me too. I think the automatic addition or deletion of these handles once set is a mistake. If you are going to do something do it properly and be consistent.
    I think I know what you're referring to here. It's the bit about losing the handles clause if you copy some things in some fashions, right? If that's the case, it has tripped me up, but I've always felt that we were better off that way, though I haven't worked through exactly what would be bad if it was done a different way. There IS a reason, though. The handlers shouldn't be too tightly tied to the objects raising the events.


    Without the heritage then VB.NET belies what it was meant to be, the natural progression from BASIC especially VB6. I don't know why these things were ever introduced in the first place, perhaps as a sop to VB6ers in order to pretend one could actually migrate from VB6 to VB.NET. They should really have made a cleaner break having failed to be VB6. It is now neither one thing or the other with this rubbish left in.
    Yeah, I agree, but I understand why it came about. Originally, the intention for VB.NET was that it would be a continuation of VB6 with a clear means to upgrade/convert projects from VB6 to VB.NET. There was that crappy tool that did a pretty bad job in VS versions up until it was abandoned after VS2008, but the intent was that the tool wouldn't be crappy and that it would actually work. Before the first release of VB.NET, though, folks in MS realized that it simply wouldn't be possible. The underlying technology was too different. This caused considerable angst within MS, as has been described to me. It was eventually recognized as being a fact, though, and the result is what we see here. There are remnants that make it somewhat easier to migrate VB6 code without ever making it actually EASY, and a few other nods to make the language more familiar to those coming from VB6, and it may well have caused more trouble than benefit, since there really is no good migration path. Making VB.NET pretty close without making it a clean continuation may have caused more confusion than benefit.

    I've certainly run into that, myself, as I have gotten to work with code that looks a whole lot like VB6....but it isn't. It's just code that is largely the VB6 subset of VB.NET written in VB.NET. Not ideal.
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  21. #301
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: I think VB6 is much a better tool/language than VB.NET

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    Once you have encountered the squirly brackets and semi colons and coded a few programs with them, they aren't as alien and not so bad. In any case the majority of 'real' programming that is closer to the metal, oses and the vast majority of o/s utilities on multiple types of o/s are all written with those squirly things. So, if you want to really understand lower level programming in general you need to get familiar. Its a done deal, no use crying about it.
    Oh I have. I started out in C (and a bit of ASM), not VB. They ARE bad. Just because you can get used to them doesn't make them any less bad.
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    Re: I think VB6 is much a better tool/language than VB.NET

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    I think .. Not ideal.
    By the power invested in me, all the threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones - no arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign.

  23. #303
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    Re: I think VB6 is much a better tool/language than VB.NET

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    I think that is pushing the direction rather off-thread but regardless...

    Gloves on, mouthshield in place, get ready - ding ding, ROUND 2!
    You are probably right I know I shouldn't rise to these things, arguing on the internet is rarely productive. I just love the way SDO throws out a challenge, changes the rules when presented with examples, and then makes utterly baseless claims with no evidence. I suppose I could just respond by saying something like...

    What I regard as complex software is...

    Code:
    Chrome Browser (super complex)
    VisualStudio.Net (super complex)
    Photoshop (complex)
    MATLAB (complex)
    AutoCAD (complex)
    VSCode (complex)
    SharpDevelop (complex)
    ...
    ...
    ...
    ...
    VB6-IDE (simple)
    Notepad++ (simple)
    and put forward just as convincing an argument

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    Re: I think VB6 is much a better tool/language than VB.NET

    Quote Originally Posted by PlausiblyDamp View Post
    You are probably right I know I shouldn't rise to these things, arguing on the internet is rarely productive. I just love the way SDO throws out a challenge, changes the rules when presented with examples, and then makes utterly baseless claims with no evidence. I suppose I could just respond by saying something like...

    What I regard as complex software is...

    Code:
    Chrome Browser (super complex)
    VisualStudio.Net (super complex)
    Photoshop (complex)
    MATLAB (complex)
    AutoCAD (complex)
    VSCode (complex)
    SharpDevelop (complex)
    ...
    ...
    ...
    ...
    VB6-IDE (simple)
    Notepad++ (simple)
    and put forward just as convincing an argument
    Where would you put GIMP on your list, gotta be higher than Photoshop.

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    Re: I think VB6 is much a better tool/language than VB.NET

    I've certainly run into that, myself, as I have gotten to work with code that looks a whole lot like VB6....but it isn't. It's just code that is largely the VB6 subset of VB.NET written in VB.NET. Not ideal.
    Yeah, using the fact that VB .Net has a legacy library that allows you to basically write VB6 code in .Net as a reason to move away from VB6 to .Net is a terrible concept. That type of .Net code probably has the same life span as VB6. It did seem that MS was trying to portray Vb .Net as an easy move for VB6 programmers. I did use those legacy functions for a little while, till I took the time to actually learn VB .Net. Then I had to go back and rewrite the code. Wish I would have just bit the bullet and done it the right way to begin with.

    I was able to pick it up immediately and start doing things. If an average person like me can do that I see no reason why a lot of the talented people still using VB6 can. 80% of things you do in VB6 could be done the same way in WinForms+VB.Net. MS even provided an entire library in the Framework with all the things from VB6 like Mid$. The time it takes to learn VB.Net is not about learning to use VB.Net, instead it's about learning to do things the .Net way. For example, using SubString instead of Mid$, learning how to use generics and lambdas so you can use things like LINQ. But these aren't necessary to write a program. You could write an entire program in VB.Net using only it's VB6-like features.
    If your going to write VB6 code in VB .Net, why change?
    Last edited by wes4dbt; Sep 2nd, 2021 at 02:32 PM.

  26. #306
    MS SQL Powerposter szlamany's Avatar
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    Re: I think VB6 is much a better tool/language than VB.NET

    Let me get something straight here...

    Seems people are complaining about using {} for block definition.

    Is that the case?

    And would that mean those same people are suggesting that IF / THEN / END IF is a better block definition?

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    Re: I think VB6 is much a better tool/language than VB.NET

    Quote Originally Posted by szlamany View Post

    Seems people are complaining about using {} for block definition.
    I propose this instead, it will please nobody and infuriate everyone.

    Code:
    IF ( something ) THEN
         { do this; }
    ELSE IF ( something )  THEN
         { do this; }
    ENDIF;
    By the power invested in me, all the threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones - no arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign.

  28. #308
    MS SQL Powerposter szlamany's Avatar
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    Re: I think VB6 is much a better tool/language than VB.NET

    Back in the DEC PDP and VAX BASIC we used line-continuation to make a block
    Code:
    If x=1 Then x = x + 2
    \ x = x * 2
    \ x = x * y
    
    ! Those \ characters starting a line make those lines be part of the IF block above
    ! Having that line break or maybe a new line # started the next code section
    ! I'm gonna go waste time and research that...

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  29. #309
    MS SQL Powerposter szlamany's Avatar
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    Re: I think VB6 is much a better tool/language than VB.NET

    Found a manual for VAX BASIC, fwiw...

    http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/lan...nual_Feb90.pdf

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  30. #310
    MS SQL Powerposter szlamany's Avatar
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    Re: I think VB6 is much a better tool/language than VB.NET

    And a PDP-11 BASIC PLUS 2 manual!

    http://mim.update.uu.se/manuals/layered/bp23.pdf

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    Re: I think VB6 is much a better tool/language than VB.NET

    And would that mean those same people are suggesting that IF / THEN / END IF is a better block definition?
    I wouldn't say it's better. But I prefer it. With the modern IDE, probably not much difference in keystrokes. But it's a cleaner block definition to me. Obviously I'm bias, I haven't programmed in any C language in 20yrs. I certainly wouldn't let using "{}" be a deciding factor in choosing a programming language to learn.
    Last edited by wes4dbt; Sep 2nd, 2021 at 02:54 PM.

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    Re: I think VB6 is much a better tool/language than VB.NET

    And the thread returns to its natural roots in a reference to one of Digital Equipment Corporation's products. Ah, this is MY thread...
    By the power invested in me, all the threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones - no arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign.

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    Re: I think VB6 is much a better tool/language than VB.NET

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    I certainly would let using "{}" be a deciding factor in choosing a programming language to learn.
    You certainly would? Don't you mean wouldn't?
    By the power invested in me, all the threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones - no arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign.

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    Re: I think VB6 is much a better tool/language than VB.NET

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    You certainly would? Don't you mean wouldn't?
    Yeah, changed it, thanks. Of coarse if I was in a argumentative mood, it could work either way. lol

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    Re: I think VB6 is much a better tool/language than VB.NET

    Of course, you are a bit coarse at times and need correction.
    By the power invested in me, all the threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones - no arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign.

  36. #316
    MS SQL Powerposter szlamany's Avatar
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    Re: I think VB6 is much a better tool/language than VB.NET

    Ok - so I can see that the {}'s debate is just silly - who would make a decision on a tool based on something like that! btw - if you want more LETTERS in your keywords, let's all go back to COBOL, lol!

    At any rate, here is my two cents.

    As you all must be aware by now, I came from a DEC world - last coding on a VAX with VAX-11 BASIC. The VAX was an incredible machine - you could call machine code routines from BASIC, from C, whatever. And ever better, there was a really well documented library that allowed you to touch everything - such as the I/O buffer, so you found yourself writing your own message pump/input/output from the keyboard logic.

    Basically you had available a run time library that gave you full access to the hardware and everything O/S'ey.

    When I migrated to PC's and picked up VB6 I was happily familiar with the syntax. But there was no easy way to access a library to talk to the hardware and the O/S. Sure you could ask here and get help with the API, but that was a scary undocumented place. Sub-classing works, but then sometimes it blows up the IDE - that's bad stuff.

    All that did not square up well with my prior professional experience with the VAX.

    Left me feeling that VB6 must have had roots as a hobbyist tool, as talking to the API reminded me of using some Altair box in the late 70's.

    When .Net came along, I welcomed it. That full on .Net library all standardized for use - sweet. That investment by MS was a professional move, imo!

    Now I code my UI in JavaScript - so I love {}'s - and also have a backend in .Net. I create PDF's with pdfSharp, create excel files with OpenXML SDK from MS - this is a professional work environment that I never had with just VB6.

    Granted I was late to the VB6 world and didn't know about all the cool tools that you all probably used. But once .Net came out, all those cool tools were a moot point.

    And realize I've been all over .Net (I see someone asked earlier about how complex the programs you have created in .Net).

    Wrote a whole client management system with WinForm UI for internal use with a .aspx Web portal for client use. Used by clients such as Chevron and BP, to submit IP documents for translation for filing in foreign countries.

    Written a Natural Language processing system that runs as 4 independent services (VB.Net), shoots data back and forth with serialized objects over HTTP posts and uses a C++ engine I created to perform the actual document processing. I can read 1000's of word documents and index all kinds of cool stuff in just minutes.

    Produced a front end for the NLP system as a WPF form - just to learn WPF - and I wrote that in C#.Net, just for kicks!

    Have a Crystal-like report writer that my clients have been using for 25 years (migrated from VB6 to .Net - thus my use of pdfSharp).

    I've sent 100's of thousands of emails - and text messages.

    Talk to all kinds of third party API's - all from that same IIS .Net back end.

    About to start development on a novel database concept that I've come up with. I expect to create ODBC connections so MS SQL and SSMS can access it easily. Will code that in C++ obviously, but most likely with a .Net wrapper. No research done on this yet...

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  37. #317
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    Re: I think VB6 is much a better tool/language than VB.NET

    Woof...haven't seen two cents buy THAT many words since before the PDP 11.
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  38. #318
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    Re: I think VB6 is much a better tool/language than VB.NET

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    I really don't think that's true. You are attributing lofty reasons to people who don't deserve it.
    It seems rarer today because of how popular Python today but believe me, in decades past, you'd never ever want to mention you use BASIC around life long C programmers. Their impression of it is that people who use it aren't real programmers because it's ease of use encourage bad habits which means plenty of bad code out there. A simple thing that implicitly variable declaration is enough to drive these guys crazy. This doesn't exist in the world of C. Even in assembly, you have to declare variables by advancing the stack pointer. BASIC's notion of implicit variable declaration was once something very novel and was viewed with disdain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    You see this as a negative about VB? That's a negative about C#.
    This might just be a matter of opinion. I prefer consistency to be honest and I think a that a compiler that enforces that is better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    That language carries with it a bunch of archaic anachronisms from the dawn of C and computers in general. Instead of making a language that is more focused on quickly and efficiently getting things done, C# is focused on elevating and perpetuating those anachronisms in ways that hinder productivity. Only a person more focused on form over function could see that as a good thing.
    This is equally true for VB.Net. For example, if you turn off Option Explicit in VB.Net, you can write code without declaring any variables. These variables would default to type Object. This behavior is an inheritance from QuickBasic where this was standard. No BASIC compiler in the ancestral line ever totally got rid of it. Also, did you know that to this day you could still use line numbers in VB.Net? That was inherited from even further back, in the days of BASICA/GWBasic.

    Now I'm aware that these things don't directly impact productivity in VB.Net but I think C# programmers would make the same argument for the anachronisms inherited from C/C++. I'd even go so far as to say that C# left the worst anachronisms from C/C++ out of the language. Go look at how casts are performed in C++. Or look at code that uses smart pointers. It will make your eyes bleed. C# was built for the .Net CLR type system so these things are a lot cleaner and safer in C#.

    However, there is one thing that I've always hated about C and it's cousins, case sensitivity. I think having case sensitivity in a programming language of one of the dumbest things you can do. This is literally the only thing I absolutely hate about C#. Thankfully, the Visual Studio IDE is powerful enough to somewhat nullify it's ill effects mainly thanks to the intellisense not being case sensitive.
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    Re: I think VB6 is much a better tool/language than VB.NET

    Quote Originally Posted by PlausiblyDamp View Post
    So VB6-IDE is complex, but SharpDevelop is less complex, despite SharpDevelop doing pretty much everything the VB6 IDE does (code editing, intellisense, debugging, forms designers, extensibility model, etc.) as well as supporting multiple languages, unit testing, etc.

    So, how does a tool that does more than VB6 can do somehow seem less complex? I honestly want to know how you rationalise this - could you explain what is more complex about the VB6 IDE compared to SharpDevelop?
    The source code of SharpDevelop is there, could you change it to a substitute for VB6-IDE?

    If you could do this, then SharpDevelop is the most convincing example of .NET being better than VB6.
    (Because .NET can develop a substitute for VB6-IDE (desktop-app), but VB6 cannot develop a substitute for Visual Studio.NET)

    Edit:
    IMO, The reason you say that VB6-IDE is very simple is because you have never made a product similar to IDE, even if the source code of SharpDevelop is there, you will never try to learn its source code.

    Note: I checked SharpDevelop 10 years ago, and it didn't arouse me any interest. And now, when I check it again, it stopped updating 5 years ago.
    Last edited by SearchingDataOnly; Sep 2nd, 2021 at 08:34 PM.

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    Re: I think VB6 is much a better tool/language than VB.NET

    Quote Originally Posted by SearchingDataOnly View Post
    The source code of SharpDevelop is there, could you change it to a substitute for VB6-IDE?

    If you could do this, then SharpDevelop is the most convincing example of .NET being better than VB6.
    (Because .NET can develop a substitute for VB6-IDE (desktop-app), but VB6 cannot develop a substitute for Visual Studio.NET)

    Edit:
    IMO, The reason you say that VB6-IDE is very simple is because you have never made a product similar to IDE, even if the source code of SharpDevelop is there, you will never try to learn its source code.

    Note: I checked SharpDevelop 10 years ago, and it didn't arouse me any interest. And now, when I check it again, it stopped updating 5 years ago.
    You are deliberately changing your arguments. You originally asked for examples of complex software written in .Net, I simply suggested SharpDevelop because it is a fairly complex piece of software written in .Net, at no point did I claim it was a rival IDE to VB6. I wasn't claiming it was still a valid contender or a replacement as you now seem to be pretending the original argument was. Even if that was an issue, SharpDevelop development ceased 5 years ago - that still gives it about 8 years on VB6 which ceased support in 2008 and effectively ceased being actively developed in 1998, so does that mean VB6 is even worse by your definition?

    I have no interest in writing an IDE, never claimed I did, just used it as an example of a complex piece of software, like you originally requested.

    The reason I claimed VB6-IDE was simple is to prove I can also make completely baseless claims about the complexity of software without any justification, just like you did. You have still completely failed to rationalise your claims that the VB6 IDE is more complex, you have provided no justification for how a single language IDE is less complex than a multi-language IDE.

    I used to use VB6 and in the 1990s it was a really good IDE, it has however aged badly in the 23 years since it was originally released. your original challenge wasn't to find software written in .Net that "interested you", "could replace VB6", "better than VS Code", it was to show complex software can be written in .Net - you have not done anything to prove factually that SharpDevelop isn't complex but have constantly shifted your argument.

    If you could simply tell me what features VB6 IDE has that make it complex and why SharpDevelop isn't as complex when it offers very similar features then I would honestly believe you are making a serious comparison. If you insist on pretending your original argument was about a replacement for VB6, or when development stopped, or your own personal interest in the software, then it is obvious you never intended to play fair and actually consider the software that was suggested.

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