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Thread: Forcibly sell values to others or other countries

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    Forcibly sell values to others or other countries

    Just chatting:

    The United States often imposes its own values, such as democracy and freedom, on other countries. There are also people here who often forcibly promote their values or experiences to others. I'd like to know if this is really good? Why are some countries unwilling to accept the democracy and freedom that the United States has forcibly promoted? Are there really people in this world who don't like democracy and freedom?

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    Re: Forcibly sell values to others or other countries

    Don't you think it is less about what the people want and more about what the local strongmen can be bribed or arm-twisted into accepting?

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    Re: Forcibly sell values to others or other countries

    Everyone likes democracy and freedom when it comes to themselves, but many don't like it for others. It's much like everyone knows that rape and murder is wrong - even rapists and murderers would not be OK with you raping and murdering them. It's just that people generally aren't as keen to place the same restrictions on themselves as they are for others.

    Of course, the democracy and freedom that America and its allies claim to bring is not all about those who aren't free but very much about protecting the interests of those parties. Just look at the feigned concern for Muslims in Afghanistan compared to the complete lack of sympathy from the same people for Palestinian Muslims.

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    Re: Forcibly sell values to others or other countries

    Don't you think it is less about what the people want and more about what the local strongmen can be bribed or arm-twisted into accepting?
    (1) Does the US government know what the local people want?

    (2) Has the US government solved the problem of "the local strongmen can be bribed or arm-twisted into accepting"?

    (3) Or, has the US government bribed local strongmen? Has the United States forced the locals to accept American values in a distorted manner?

    (4) Can anyone cite a successful case in which the United States forcibly sold values (democracy and freedom) to a certain country and made this country successful?

    (5) Does the US government really want to help other countries succeed?

    (6) Why does the US government not want to help many of its poor citizens succeed?

    (7) Why is the US government unwilling to devote energy to doing domestic affairs well?

    Note:
    I'm not trying to ridicule or gloat. I really have many questions that cannot be answered.
    Last edited by SearchingDataOnly; Aug 23rd, 2021 at 10:34 PM.

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    Re: Forcibly sell values to others or other countries

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    Everyone likes democracy and freedom when it comes to themselves, but many don't like it for others. It's much like everyone knows that rape and murder is wrong - even rapists and murderers would not be OK with you raping and murdering them. It's just that people generally aren't as keen to place the same restrictions on themselves as they are for others.

    Of course, the democracy and freedom that America and its allies claim to bring is not all about those who aren't free but very much about protecting the interests of those parties. Just look at the feigned concern for Muslims in Afghanistan compared to the complete lack of sympathy from the same people for Palestinian Muslims.
    IMO, when you sell your products or values to others or other countries, one or more successful cases will be extremely convincing.

    The problem is that the United States has basically not established any successful cases. On the contrary, almost all cases have failed, such as: Afghanistan, Iraq, Liberia, Libya, Syria, Ukraine and so on. Especially the recent withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan is a typical failure case. So, in the future, how can the US government persuade other allies to promote their values with her?

    Just like someone here, he keeps boasting about how good a certain programming language is, but he can't come up with a convincing case. A picture can be worth a hundred sentences, and a good software case can be worth 10,000 sentences.
    Last edited by SearchingDataOnly; Aug 23rd, 2021 at 10:27 PM.

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    Re: Forcibly sell values to others or other countries

    Quote Originally Posted by SearchingDataOnly View Post
    IMO, when you sell your products or values to others or other countries, one or more successful cases will be extremely convincing.

    The problem is that the United States has basically not established any successful cases. On the contrary, almost all cases have failed, such as: Afghanistan, Iraq, Liberia, Libya, Syria, Ukraine and so on. Especially the recent withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan is a typical failure case. So, in the future, how can the US government persuade other allies to promote their values with her?

    Just like someone here, he keeps boasting about how good a certain programming language is, but he can't come up with a convincing case. A picture can be worth a hundred sentences, and a good software case can be worth 10,000 sentences.
    Oooo. Just HAD to bring it back to programming. As if we didn't have enough of that.

    Democracy can't be all that well pushed on anybody. Authoritarianism can be, but not democracy. If you really push democracy, the people will vote you out. What you can try to push is human rights, equality, a system of justice, and certain freedoms (such as a free press). There will always be forces pushing back hard on all of those issues. The forces pushing back can be quite strong, as they are often armed and relatively unconstrained by any scruples.

    This is a struggle that has been going on for as long as there has been democracy. Just look at the Peloponnesian War. Athens was a democracy, Sparta was authoritarian. That was ultimately the conflict, but even within Athens there were authoritarian groups that tore at their society. Athens remains, Sparta is no more....and now we have Sapator, who doesn't keep boasting about how good a certain programming language is.
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    Re: Forcibly sell values to others or other countries

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Democracy can't be all that well pushed on anybody. Authoritarianism can be.
    That being the case, why does the US government impose democracy on other countries? On the contrary, the most powerful authoritarian country (China) has never imposed their own social systems on other countries. Don't you think this is a very ironic thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Democracy can't be all that well pushed on anybody. Authoritarianism can be, but not democracy. If you really push democracy, the people will vote you out. What you can try to push is human rights, equality, a system of justice, and certain freedoms (such as a free press). There will always be forces pushing back hard on all of those issues. The forces pushing back can be quite strong, as they are often armed and relatively unconstrained by any scruples.

    This is a struggle that has been going on for as long as there has been democracy. Just look at the Peloponnesian War. Athens was a democracy, Sparta was authoritarian. That was ultimately the conflict, but even within Athens there were authoritarian groups that tore at their society. Athens remains, Sparta is no more....and now we have Sapator, who doesn't keep boasting about how good a certain programming language is.
    (1) What is true democracy? Is the United States a true democracy?

    (2) I remember that an expert in China commented on the Brexit incident. He said that "the British government and people are dealing with complicated matters in a simple way." Voting is a very simple matter, but Brexit is a very complicated matter, involving all aspects of the issue.
    The British deal with complicated things in a simple way, which has further reduced Britain's national power and international influence. The same thing is happening in the United States. The national power and international influence of the United States are declining sharply. Then, what will the world look like in the future? How does the United States face an extremely powerful authoritarian power?

    In fact, China is not an authoritarian country, but a democratic centralized country.

    I have told a few jokes about China in other threads, such as: China is the freest and most open country in the world. In 2019, 190 million people in China went abroad to travel, study and work.

    Now, let me tell another joke about China: China is the most efficient and tolerant democratic socialist country in the world.
    Last edited by SearchingDataOnly; Aug 24th, 2021 at 11:44 AM.

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    Re: Forcibly sell values to others or other countries

    Quote Originally Posted by SearchingDataOnly View Post
    That being the case, why does the US government impose democracy on other countries?
    What else can they do?


    (1) What is true democracy? Is the United States a true democracy?
    No, and there are no true democracies. In a true democracy, everybody votes on everything, which doesn't work well even for small governments (towns, for example). It's way too chaotic. The US is a republic. We elect representatives that then make the decisions.

    (2) I remember that an expert in China commented on the Brexit incident. He said that "the British government and people are dealing with complicated matters in a simple way." Voting is a very simple matter, but Brexit is a very complicated matter, involving all aspects of the issue.
    Yeah, but that's not really just democracy. Humans don't deal well with complexity. We always simplify it down. It also isn't just democracy that assists in simplifying complex issues into simple sound bites. Every government, and lots of companies, do the same thing. If you can get a complex issue down to a sound bite that people can feel, then you've done your job....but they don't understand all the complexity, and they won't be forming opinions based on all the complexity. That's just life.

    The British deal with complicated things in a simple way, which has further reduced Britain's national power and international influence. The same thing is happening in the United States. The national power and international influence of the United States are declining sharply. Then, what will the world look like in the future? How does the United States face an extremely powerful centralized power?
    Every country that has a foreign policy (which means every country) deal with complicated things in simple ways.

    How will the US face an extremely powerful centralized power? Do you mean like Japan in the 1940s, Germany in the 1940s, or the USSR after that?
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    Re: Forcibly sell values to others or other countries

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    How will the US face an extremely powerful centralized power? Do you mean like Japan in the 1940s, Germany in the 1940s, or the USSR after that?
    No, it's China. Because the U.S. government now says that China is an authoritarian state, even a dictatorship, and a much more terrifying opponent than the Soviet Union.

    In fact, China is not an authoritarian country, but a democratic centralized country.

    I have told a few jokes about China in other threads, such as: China is the freest and most open country in the world. In 2019, 190 million people in China went abroad to travel, study and work.

    Now, let me tell another joke about China: China is the most efficient and tolerant democratic socialist country in the world.

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    Re: Forcibly sell values to others or other countries

    With reference to an old spitting image sketch featuring President Botha.

    "There are four truths about South Africa today:

    Number One: Bananas are Marsupials.
    Number Two: Motor Cars run on gravy.
    Number Three: Salmon live in trees and eat pencils.

    Number Four: and Political reform is coming to South Africa..."

    Replace South Africa with China and you can understand the situation in China and realise the untruths coming from it.
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    Re: Forcibly sell values to others or other countries

    "China is already fading away."

    Video Dispatch: China’s Demographic Decline

    About a 2 minute summary from earlier this year.

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    Re: Forcibly sell values to others or other countries

    In fact, China is not an authoritarian country, but a democratic centralized country.
    Oh, come on, your don't really believe that do you. Your just trying to improve your "Citizen Score", right???

    This is just one example, from Wikipedia
    Reporters Without Borders consistently ranks China very poorly on media freedoms in their annual releases of the Press Freedom Index, labeling the Chinese government as having "the sorry distinction of leading the world in repression of the Internet". For 2019, China ranked 177 out of 180 nations.[4] China has neither a free press or open access to the internet
    Maybe I'm wrong, did the Chinese people vote to not have freedom of the press and open internet.

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    Re: Forcibly sell values to others or other countries

    Originally, I did not want to talk about China in this forum. But someone with dark and distorted psychology attacked me in another thread talking about technology, so I revealed a little information about China in this thread.

    Since we already have some people from authoritarian states experiencing democracy on these forums I would go further and connect the dots and can only suppose they must be from their secret services (aka Stasi) state operated group of bad actors, no?

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    Re: Forcibly sell values to others or other countries

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    With reference to an old spitting image sketch featuring President Botha.

    "There are four truths about South Africa today:

    Number One: Bananas are Marsupials.
    Number Two: Motor Cars run on gravy.
    Number Three: Salmon live in trees and eat pencils.

    Number Four: and Political reform is coming to South Africa..."

    Replace South Africa with China and you can understand the situation in China and realise the untruths coming from it.
    I once said that only if you have 200% of Sherlock Holmes's IQ and logical reasoning ability, you can understand what kind of country China is. To understand what kind of country South Africa is, you only need to have 5% of Sherlock Holmes's logical reasoning ability.

    A few days ago, I watched a documentary about the visit to China by the British Marshal Montgomery in 1960. He seemed to have 150% of Holmes' IQ and logical reasoning ability. But there are no such politicians in Europe now. Except for German Chancellor Merkel, it seems that the entire Western world does not have a professional politician, almost all are political clowns who love to lie.

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    Re: Forcibly sell values to others or other countries

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    Oh, come on, your don't really believe that do you. Your just trying to improve your "Citizen Score", right???

    This is just one example, from Wikipedia


    Maybe I'm wrong, did the Chinese people vote to not have freedom of the press and open internet.
    What is "Citizen Score"? Is this a new term coined by the Western media?

    It is because of the distorted reports and cover-ups of the Western media that China has secretly developed into the world's most powerful country under the nose of the United States. Otherwise, when any country develops to 50-60% of the US national power, the US will destroy it (economically or politically). The Chinese people thank the Western media.

    In addition, if living under an illusion can make you happy, then continue to live under the illusion, it's just a mental drug that is not harmful to the body.

    Traveling to China does not seem to cost much, but traveling to the United States and Europe cost me a lot of money.

    Why not take a look at the evil country in your eyes? It is both an adventure and a pleasure. (Actually, China is the safest country in the world, safer than Singapore, especially for foreigners)

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    Maybe I'm wrong, did the Chinese people vote to not have freedom of the press and open internet.
    Do you want to deal with complex problems in a simple way again? Do Americans vote to cancel fake news?
    Last edited by SearchingDataOnly; Aug 24th, 2021 at 09:13 PM.

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    Re: Forcibly sell values to others or other countries

    "China is already fading away."

    Video Dispatch: China’s Demographic Decline

    About a 2 minute summary from earlier this year.
    When a few cases or dozens of cases of Covid-19-positive people appeared in a certain city in China (these were basically the Delta Covid-19 imported from abroad), Western media reported that a new round of epidemic outbreak occurred in China.

    When China's population fertility rate dropped, Western media reports were that China began to disappear.

    In Western media reports, China's economy had collapsed or was about to collapse dozens of times.

    Don't you know that China's declining population fertility rate is a sign that China's economy is becoming a rich country?

    Don't you know that China's declining population fertility rate is a manifestation of Chinese youth advocating freedom and paying more attention to the quality of life?

    This is why I say that the logical thinking of most people here is extremely simple.
    Last edited by SearchingDataOnly; Aug 24th, 2021 at 09:51 PM.

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    Re: Forcibly sell values to others or other countries

    Do Americans vote to cancel fake news?
    No need to. Fake news exists everywhere. The good thing about freedom of the press is there is some there to challenge the fake news. So it's up to the individual to decide what's true. That has it's draw backs but I prefer it to the government telling me what's true. The same is true about an open internet.

    What is "Citizen Score"? Is this a new term coined by the Western media?
    Maybe this term would be more recognizable, China’s social credit system

    China’s social credit system is a set of databases and initiatives that monitor and assess the trustworthiness of individuals, companies and government entities
    A good rating could offer priority health care or deposit-free renting of public housing, while a negative rating could see individuals banned from flights and trains
    https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-e...-controversial

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    Re: Forcibly sell values to others or other countries

    Our chineese friend here is pretty butthurt by the truth it seems.

    I’ve lived under authoritarian government and western democracy in the same country during my short life so far.

    I’ve been brainwashed and indoctrinated and scared by secret services and I know first person why I had to be unauthentic to survive. Everyone had to, it wasn’t a personal choice and you are part of the oppresive machine.

    Being part of the free world is 100 times better. All I can say to all of you socialist enlighteners is to take your “prosperity” and shove it where the sun does not shine and you can report this to your ideological commander too - “I tried to convince them to come to China but free people laughed at me. . .”

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    Re: Forcibly sell values to others or other countries

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    No need to. Fake news exists everywhere. The good thing about freedom of the press is there is some there to challenge the fake news. So it's up to the individual to decide what's true. That has it's draw backs but I prefer it to the government telling me what's true. The same is true about an open internet.
    When the media is controlled by a small number of capital groups or financial predators, the media becomes another kind of authoritarian controller. 90% of Americans do not have the ability to distinguish fake news.


    China’s social credit system is a set of databases and initiatives that monitor and assess the trustworthiness of individuals, companies and government entities
    A good rating could offer priority health care or deposit-free renting of public housing, while a negative rating could see individuals banned from flights and trains
    I don't need public housing. If the government prohibits me from taking a plane or a train, I'll take a bus or ride a horse.

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    Superbly Moderated NeedSomeAnswers's Avatar
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    Re: Forcibly sell values to others or other countries

    Democracy in and of itself is a fine idea, forcing it on others not so good an idea.

    I feel like your looking at or talking about two different issues here.

    The US much like my own country the UK is far from perfect and has made some dubious decisions internationally in recent years.

    Many of these decisions can be better understood if you look at them through the lens that powerful, wealthy countries defend and protect there own interests first, and that the 9/11 attack very much skewed recent US foreign interventionist policy particularly in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    The US were not trying to particularly force democracy on those countries rather they did not want armed groups such as the Taliban who are hostile to the US in charge.
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    Re: Forcibly sell values to others or other countries

    Quote Originally Posted by wqweto View Post
    Our chineese friend here is pretty butthurt by the truth it seems.

    I’ve lived under authoritarian government and western democracy in the same country during my short life so far.

    I’ve been brainwashed and indoctrinated and scared by secret services and I know first person why I had to be unauthentic to survive. Everyone had to, it wasn’t a personal choice and you are part of the oppresive machine.

    Being part of the free world is 100 times better. All I can say to all of you socialist enlighteners is to take your “prosperity” and shove it where the sun does not shine and you can report this to your ideological commander too - “I tried to convince them to come to China but free people laughed at me. . .”
    Poor man. I understand your suffering and the suffering of all countries in the former Soviet Union (including Eastern Europe).

    I understand why your heart is dark and twisted, but I don't understand why dilettante's heart is also dark and twisted.

    Continue to laugh at others, from now on, I'm willing to accept your ridicule, if it can alleviate your pain.

    (Note: I've removed you, dilettante and Eduardo from the ignore list so that there is no one on my ignore list)

    After 5 years, you will see the truth, and the truth is very interesting. Live well please.
    Last edited by SearchingDataOnly; Aug 25th, 2021 at 05:29 AM.

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    Re: Forcibly sell values to others or other countries

    Domestically western countries are not perfect but generally they are good places to live, and most people have lots of opportunities and a good standard of living.

    A two (or more) party political system also means that a proportion of the time the party you support will not be in power and you may not agree with how they run things, and so we will argue and debate about this and at times we can even be run badly, fortunately we have elections every 4 - 5 years and we can normally vote the government out if they are doing a bad job.

    Being critical of our governments and even our own countries is normal for us, it doesn't mean we dont like our countries or think everything our governments do is bad.

    Much like the News its the bad stuff we all focus on.
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    Re: Forcibly sell values to others or other countries

    Quote Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers View Post
    Democracy in and of itself is a fine idea, forcing it on others not so good an idea.

    I feel like your looking at or talking about two different issues here.

    The US much like my own country the UK is far from perfect and has made some dubious decisions internationally in recent years.

    Many of these decisions can be better understood if you look at them through the lens that powerful, wealthy countries defend and protect there own interests first, and that the 9/11 attack very much skewed recent US foreign interventionist policy particularly in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    The US were not trying to particularly force democracy on those countries rather they did not want armed groups such as the Taliban who are hostile to the US in charge.
    Of course I can understand many decisions of the US government.

    There is a view in academia:

    The United States is the United States (country) of global capitalists(including Russian capitalists and Chinese capitalists) represented by Wall Street .
    The United States is not the United States (country) of the American people.

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    Re: Forcibly sell values to others or other countries

    Quote Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers View Post
    Domestically western countries are not perfect but generally they are good places to live, and most people have lots of opportunities and a good standard of living.
    What you said happened 10 years ago, when I was planning to move abroad, and then I changed my mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers View Post
    A two (or more) party political system also means that a proportion of the time the party you support will not be in power and you may not agree with how they run things, and so we will argue and debate about this and at times we can even be run badly, fortunately we have elections every 4 - 5 years and we can normally vote the government out if they are doing a bad job.

    Being critical of our governments and even our own countries is normal for us, it doesn't mean we dont like our countries or think everything our governments do is bad.

    Much like the News its the bad stuff we all focus on.
    The sad fact is that elections in the West can often only be held between a half-rotten apple and a sprouted potato.

    In the past, China had only one choice, which was sweet potatoes, but sweet potatoes were not easy to rot and could provide people with sufficient nutrition. Now, in addition to sweet potatoes in China, we can occasionally eat fresh apples and potatoes.

    But Western countries now only have rotten apples and sprouted potatoes.
    Last edited by SearchingDataOnly; Aug 25th, 2021 at 07:13 AM.

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    Re: Forcibly sell values to others or other countries

    Sorry, but I really think you should refrain from promoting the Chinese autocratic system.
    Be happy with you have or not.
    I'm happy with were I live and the systems we have.

    Also stop starting new threads about this topic and also stop with poisoning a lot of threads being either political or idolize VB6 (but complaining about missing features)

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    Re: Forcibly sell values to others or other countries

    Quote Originally Posted by Arnoutdv View Post
    Sorry, but I really think you should refrain from promoting the Chinese autocratic system.
    Be happy with you have or not.
    I'm happy with were I live and the systems we have.

    Also stop starting new threads about this topic and also stop with poisoning a lot of threads being either political or idolize VB6 (but complaining about missing features)
    Your suggestion is correct, if it weren't for wqweto to irritate me, I would not send these information about China. I think it is better to let the people in the West continue to live in their own fantasy world.

    In addition, if you don't want to see the thread I posted about VB6, please add me to the ignore list, thanks.
    Last edited by SearchingDataOnly; Aug 25th, 2021 at 07:04 AM.

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    Re: Forcibly sell values to others or other countries

    @Moderator, please lock or delete this thread.

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    Re: Forcibly sell values to others or other countries

    Are there really people in this world who don't like democracy and freedom?
    Yes... or at least there are people who find autocracy preferable. Autocracy has many benefits if you happen to be on the right side of it. It brings stability and security. Of Course, if you're on the wrong side of it, it brings persecution.

    I think there are a few mistakes people often make in these discussion. First, Democracy does not equate to Freedom, it simply gives the individual a say on which restrictions should be applied to their and everyone else's freedom.

    Second, unfettered freedom isn't actually a desirable state because it includes my freedom to punch you on the nose and steal your wallet if I'm bigger than you. A desirable level of freedom for you requires certain restrictions for me.

    Third, it's not democracy that's required for public good, it's having a system of government that is focussed on the interests of society rather than the governors. In brief, a benign dictatorship is much better for it's citizens than a corrupt democracy. Democracy tends to produce better results in this regard because regular elections keep the government honest whereas a dictatorship has no such safeguards short of violent uprising. It's a mistake to think that democracy will always produce better results though.

    History is littered with good dictatorships outdoing bad democracies, e.g. the British Restoration. In fact I've lived through the Nigerian Military coup in the 1980s which replaced a thoroughly corrupt and tribal democracy with a benign military dictatorship. In the short term peoples lives definitely got better. I say short term because successive military coups installed ever more corrupt dictatorships because, as indicated above, no safeguards. Thankfully Nigeria managed to wind it's way back to a democratic system and, while imperfect, this one is a whole lot better than the one that existed in the 80s - the country seems to be in a reasonably good state these days. Also, they had president called "Goodluck Jonathan" which is the best name of any president... ever! So they must be doing alright.

    On the China thing, I actually think China is much more democratic at a local level than we in the West give it credit for. My Chinese friends (I don't have many, but a few) have often said to me that they have a lot of say over local projects, spending etc, through local councils (or their equivalent). I do agree that it's thoroughly autocratic at a national level though. Whether you view that as good or bad for the people depends on whether you view that government as benign, not on whether you view it as democratic.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Sep 2nd, 2021 at 09:29 AM.
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  29. #29
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    Re: Forcibly sell values to others or other countries

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post

    This is a struggle that has been going on for as long as there has been democracy. Just look at the Peloponnesian War. Athens was a democracy, Sparta was authoritarian. That was ultimately the conflict, but even within Athens there were authoritarian groups that tore at their society. Athens remains, Sparta is no more....and now we have Sapator, who doesn't keep boasting about how good a certain programming language is.

    Sparta is here as well.
    Also what did I do now? What language I am not boasting??
    .

  30. #30
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    Re: Forcibly sell values to others or other countries

    The US form of government is just screwy and a little bit fecked. It is no example to the rest of the world as to how a supposed democracy should run. Certainly no longer.

    A bit of sorting out is required and that'll never happen, short of revolution or insurrection both of which are actually quite likely given the levels of gun ownership and polarisation.
    By the power invested in me, all the threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones - no arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign.

  31. #31
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    Re: Forcibly sell values to others or other countries

    Well, you're certainly educating us on Greek, so that's certainly not one you are not boasting.

    Sparta is there? Lots of Spartans around there? Did they even have a city? Athens, Thebes, etc. all seemed to be cities surrounded by a state, while Sparta seemed more like just the state.

    Of course, we happily swiped those names as well as any others that we liked, so my grandparents lived in Laconia.
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  32. #32
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    Re: Forcibly sell values to others or other countries

    Yep Sparta city is still here.
    https://www.google.com/maps/place/%C...4!4d22.4303055

    Laconia, well my grandparents where from Arcadia so it's kinda close
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  33. #33
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    Re: Forcibly sell values to others or other countries

    Looks more like an outdoor museum.
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  34. #34
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    Re: Forcibly sell values to others or other countries

    Lol. This is not the covid thread, the city is there trust me.
    https://www.google.com/search?q=%CF%...z9bZF7fI2Y95hM
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  35. #35
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    Re: Forcibly sell values to others or other countries

    Looks rather nice, actually. I expected it to look rather....spartan.
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  36. #36
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    Re: Forcibly sell values to others or other countries

    Well everyone expect Greeks to have helmets on an spears and live on Doric temples
    Lol but that's alright we are "selling" the Greek culture to tourists so...
    But yeah the cities outside of the monster that is Athens are quite nice. For my vacation I'm close to Halkida and it's a nice city also, lot's of air not that claustrophobic monster that is the center of Athens that I have as my main residence.
    .

  37. #37
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    Re: Forcibly sell values to others or other countries

    I keep thinking of Joni Mitchell:

    I met a redneck on a Grecian isle
    Who did the goat dance very well
    He gave me back my smile
    But he kept my camera to sell

  38. #38
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    Re: Forcibly sell values to others or other countries

    What we are seeing is the retreat to their shores that we periodically see when the US temporarily loses its MOJO. Always occurs after an overseas policy defeat and takes 20 years to forget.

    The US has always been bad at colonialism. It is however very good at making other countries buy into its ethos and the consumerism it represents. It does this partly with cash directed to the right people but it also makes a lot of useful weaponry which it was always happy to export. That soon gets you on-side.

    The trouble is the Chinese have learnt that lesson too.

    These days, the major decline in US influence is that the world is not so interested in what the US has to offer. We don't see many US brands on the shelves, we don't buy much that is obviously from the USA, even Americans seem to buy most of their stuff from China. We have some shared brands of course but those items are really now multinational brands with their home nowhere in particular. Heinz being the obvious example, but beans? It needs to be more than that. I can't remember last when I bought something from America, OK...an iphone but that's it. Feel free to remind me otherwise.

    The US message is still put out through films and telly, also the terrible news channels but US films/media are less of a desirable commodity these days, things seen too often soon lose their cachet. However, the American message rather than the American dream can still be exported in this fashion. This is a weapon in America's favour. Thank goodness for the English language and the remnants of the British Empire, your influence will still extend to the far corners of the world. Another under valued weapon in America's favour.

    China is the worry for the US and primarily because the US needs China just to survive even though China is a phenomenal competitor. The US cannot compete in the short term as everything from China
    is just cheaper. Once upon a time you could travel around the world and find almost every manufactured good was made in England as it was the workshop of the world, then later, America but now? Everything is from China. Look around your house and see.

    Until you resolve that, the USA will decline. Stop buying stuff from China. You say you can't? Well, that is the problem.

    Democracy is slowly failing and consumerism and clever political control will take over, it is inevitable. We've seen it in China and they will export their model to other countries.

    Oh yes, no war please with China just because they are becoming the biggest threat. We like, no we prefer our planet to be not nuked.
    By the power invested in me, all the threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones - no arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign.

  39. #39
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    Re: Forcibly sell values to others or other countries

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    I expected it to look rather....spartan.
    Doh!
    By the power invested in me, all the threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones - no arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign.

  40. #40
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    Re: Forcibly sell values to others or other countries

    The Cutting Room Files, Part 5: The Future of the United Kingdom

    In short, that's enough from you over there in the corner at the Kids' Table.

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