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Thread: To Afghan or to not Afghan

  1. #121
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Pity someone was not in one of those.
    Last edited by sapator; Aug 28th, 2021 at 06:23 AM.
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  2. #122
    Hyperactive Member Peter Porter's Avatar
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    And that's exactly why we won't wipe Europe's bottom for them any more. People are sick of it and our politicians can no longer ignore the wishes of the people here. The U.S. has nothing to gain from being in places like Afghanistan, and people are tired of paying the freight to carry freeloaders.
    Hey, most of Europe was devastated after World War 2, and after we picked up the pieces, your politicians decided to keep a presense overseas, even after we built advanced weaponry of our own. The US could've pulled out ages ago, and we would've made up for it.

    When the US pays into NATO and performs their own missions outside of NATO, how does that make us look like freeloaders? Would you say a golf club is freeloading if you have to pay a fee, or if you decided to hit a few balls outside the course to practice your swing?
    Last edited by Peter Porter; Aug 29th, 2021 at 08:12 AM.

  3. #123
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Bretton Woods was deemed necessary because after two world wars the Soviets threatened yet another round.

    What has changed is that the Soviets are long gone and the price is far too high, and after 70 years the barrel is empty so people here can't and won't keep paying. For a while things like a thirst for petroleum kept it going anyway, but even that isn't enough of an issue today.


  4. #124
    Hyperactive Member Peter Porter's Avatar
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    The U.S. has nothing to gain from being in places like Afghanistan, and people are tired of paying the freight to carry freeloaders.
    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Bretton Woods was deemed necessary because after two world wars the Soviets threatened yet another round.

    What has changed is that the Soviets are long gone and the price is far too high, and after 70 years the barrel is empty so people here can't and won't keep paying. For a while things like a thirst for petroleum kept it going anyway, but even that isn't enough of an issue today.
    I know Allies, specially the US, helped get Europe back on it's feet after World War 2. How does that make us look like freeloaders? Would you call a relative who's down on their luck a freeloader because you helped them get it together?

    Was Afghanistan freeloading when the US offered support all these years? The US govenment willfully supported the wrong parties, turning a blind eye to the corruption it fueled. The wrong parties was drunk with corruption, and the US government kept pouring the drinks while knowing this.
    Last edited by Peter Porter; Aug 29th, 2021 at 07:52 AM.

  5. #125
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    My usual boring signature: Nothing

  6. #126
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Quote Originally Posted by sapator View Post
    Ehm
    Are we forgetting the total bombardment of Serbia by, yep, USA?
    And let's not forget NATO asking Greece to help bomb Serbia also and us giving them the finger. I guess they still have a gruu-unggee.
    Of course that does not mean anything on inter Cro-Serb relationships, I don't know much about that but I do know US bombed Serbia.
    Uh, did you forget the atrocities/genocide serbian paramilitary-troops committed in Kosovo, Bosnia/Hercegovina, and Croatia?
    Did you forget, that Serbia occupied non-serbian territory in Kosovo, Bosnia/Hercegovina, and Croatia?
    Kosovo, Bosnia/Hercegovina, and Croatia never claimed foreign territory.
    That's the reason why NATO bombed Serbia (and NOT the USA!). The same as what happened in 1991 to get Iraq to leave Kuwait
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  7. #127
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    I don't want to argue.
    I respect both countries but we wouldn't bomb our Serbian friends.
    NATO is USA btw, it's a clever way to have other people do their dirty work.
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  8. #128
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Plus, despite FD effort to frame the situation as "women, children and unarmed civilians ", Afghanistan had a military. They just chose not to fight.
    1. I was responding to this: "The afghan people have to stand up and be counted." I don't think women, children and unarmed civilians is an unfair framing when applied to the Afghan people.
    2. I don't like the wording "chose" not to fight (they didn't have a realistic choice when their allies left them high and dry) but I do agree that they have failed to protect the Afghan people. Do you feel that absolves us of our moral responsibility to the Afghan people? If so your logic is backward. Our moral responsibility would have been absolved if the Afghan army had succeeded in protecting the Afghan people.

    And that's exactly why we won't wipe Europe's bottom for them any more. People are sick of it and our politicians can no longer ignore the wishes of the people here. The U.S. has nothing to gain from being in places like Afghanistan, and people are tired of paying the freight to carry freeloaders.
    The European nations are in Afghanistan in response to an attack on the US. I think you're portrayal is entirely backward.

    Uh, did you forget the atrocities/genocide serbian paramilitary-troops committed in Kosovo, Bosnia/Hercegovina, and Croatia?
    Oh I agree with you on this. Horrible atrocities following the collapse of Yugoslavia. I'd say that both sides committed atrocities but my understanding is that the Serbian army was by far the worse player in that.

    However it's widely accepted that the worst of those atrocities (notably shreboniza - apologies for the spelling which is probably way off) were committed when the UN abandoned the situation. It feels like you're arguing that we should repeat that mistake.
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  9. #129
    PowerPoster Zvoni's Avatar
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    Oh I agree with you on this. Horrible atrocities following the collapse of Yugoslavia. I'd say that both sides committed atrocities but my understanding is that the Serbian army was by far the worse player in that.

    However it's widely accepted that the worst of those atrocities (notably shreboniza - apologies for the spelling which is probably way off) were committed when the UN abandoned the situation. It feels like you're arguing that we should repeat that mistake.
    "Srebrenica"

    No, we definitely should NOT repeat that mistake.
    It's what i wrote in my first post (first page?): The allied forces in Afghanistan didn't learn from the past (and thusly, HAVE repeated that mistake), and to use some provocative words: I wouldn't be surprised if Afghanistan gets its own "Srebrenica" now that the allied forces have pulled out.
    And the problem with that is: Does anybody seriously believe that the Taliban are going to adhere to their promise of "moderate/progressive/blablablabla" Government?
    The Taliban have anounced, that the Sharia is going to be a main part of their Laws!

    My position on this is: If you don't have the backing of the common people, any "police"-force is damned to fail, nevermind the cultural differences, where both sides, plainly, just don't understand each other why someone is or is not doing something. ---> Education! Talk with each other, explain what you're doing, for Christ's sake!

    By far not the expert on this, but my gut tells me, that's (one of) the reasons why the US failed in Vietnam (Of course, i wouldn't be surprised that i'm completely wrong here)

    EDIT: To reiterate: What Afghanistan needs is a Revolution of the common people from within, not some "policed" cover for "private/commercial" interests. That's what i meant with "stand up and be counted"
    Look at Iran. The iranian Revolution, which lead to the fall of the Shah (who was a friend of Western countries), came from within, from the common people, and it still holds! (And no, i'm not going to discuss that any further).
    Iran is a sovereign country, accepted by the wider world, even if its "structure" is not to the tastes of some countries (namely the US), but its structure is what the people then (the 70's?) wanted.
    Last edited by Zvoni; Aug 31st, 2021 at 07:36 AM.
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  10. #130
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Quote Originally Posted by sapator View Post
    Beep Beep Beep.

    Btw we don't launch so we must not have corruption but we do lunch so we must have obesity.
    So, out of curiosity, what's the failure to lunch rate there? I imagine it's pretty low.

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  11. #131
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    No hegemonic country should interfere with the regimes of other countries. How many countries will really help others?
    It's rare to have one out of 50. Most countries are trying to grab resources or foster opposition forces.

  12. #132
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post
    So, out of curiosity, what's the failure to lunch rate there? I imagine it's pretty low.

    -tg
    As low as covid death rate
    .

  13. #133
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    @Zvoni, I get the impression we're not differing on principle but rather on achievability. I think you're saying that the reason for pulling out is that achieving a stable state in Afghanistan is simply impossible. I disagree with that and think that it is possible but we haven't made a good faith attempt at it (rather we were driven by our own goals rather than those of the Afghani people).

    I don't think that's a difference we could resolve until we're likely to resolve as the only way of finding out would be to spend another 20 years (more or less) engaging in an actual good faith attempt without guarantee of success - which isn't going happen.
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    The United States helped Vietnam and South Korea kill many people and soldiers. They only wanted to set up powerful missile bases and military bases around China. It's like a network of disciples one by one. This is much more popular than the Germans. I think Hitler's original idea was to kill the ruling parties in other countries, steal gold and other assets, and let the troops of these countries attack the Soviet Union and other countries together.
    Modern commercial warfare and false anti-terrorism war do not require constant artillery fire. The most important thing is to realize his ideas secretly so that others do not know your true intentions.

    For example, banning China’s Huawei’s 5G from selling globally and banning the production of 5G mobile phones. This naked and unfair hegemony is like two takeaway sex companies robbing customers and directly killing batches of employees of the other party with a knife. Where there is oppression, there is resistance.

  15. #135
    PowerPoster Zvoni's Avatar
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    @Zvoni, I get the impression we're not differing on principle but rather on achievability. I think you're saying that the reason for pulling out is that achieving a stable state in Afghanistan is simply impossible. I disagree with that and think that it is possible but we haven't made a good faith attempt at it (rather we were driven by our own goals rather than those of the Afghani people).
    FD, Close!
    I don't really think pulling out is THE reason for "not achievability", more like, because they are pulling out, it's not achievable anymore.
    The clashing interests and culture-structures didn't make it any easier to achieve nation building WHILE they were in Afghanistan.
    But since the allied forces HAVE pulled out, i don't see any possibility/opportunity to achieve that goal NOW.
    Because, if we're honest, there are only two possible options left:
    1) Re-occupy again, and starting the Anti-Taliban-War AGAIN (with everything it entails)
    Or 2) Do a North-Korea on them (with everything it entails)

    Outside those two options, any change can only come from within Afghanistan, and that's what i meant with "stand up and be counted" (with everything it entails)

    That's exactly how i feel, and yes, i'm aware of the consequences of my position with "stand up and be counted" --> innocents dying.

    And there is nothing wrong in disagreeing, as long as everyone remains civil and accepts differing standpoints.
    I don't think that's a difference we could resolve until we're likely to resolve as the only way of finding out would be to spend another 20 years (more or less) engaging in an actual good faith attempt without guarantee of success - which isn't going happen.
    I agree with your second sentence completely.
    If you think about it: After WW2 the allied forces had a real interest in building up Germany again (Having Bases against the Iron Curtain not withstanding!)
    Or how you call it: in actual good faith.
    Even then "Made in Germany" was already a "Quality"-Marker, nevermind science and research. Just remember how many germans received a nobel-price in sciences in the first half of the 20th century.
    The allied forces had a real interest to get Germany back up, but away from Nazi-Ideology.
    Compounded with the real interest of the German people to build up back their nation, it was achieved.
    But, it still took some 50 years.......
    Last edited by Zvoni; Sep 1st, 2021 at 02:04 AM.
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  16. #136
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Quote Originally Posted by xiaoyao View Post
    The United States helped Vietnam and South Korea kill many people and soldiers. They only wanted to set up powerful missile bases and military bases around China. It's like a network of disciples one by one. This is much more popular than the Germans. I think Hitler's original idea was to kill the ruling parties in other countries, steal gold and other assets, and let the troops of these countries attack the Soviet Union and other countries together.
    Modern commercial warfare and false anti-terrorism war do not require constant artillery fire. The most important thing is to realize his ideas secretly so that others do not know your true intentions.

    For example, banning China’s Huawei’s 5G from selling globally and banning the production of 5G mobile phones. This naked and unfair hegemony is like two takeaway sex companies robbing customers and directly killing batches of employees of the other party with a knife. Where there is oppression, there is resistance.
    I'm not a US fanboy or nor do I even live in the US but China massacres it's own people for criticizing the government. I think we are better off with the US running things in the world.
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  17. #137
    PowerPoster Zvoni's Avatar
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    I'm not a US fanboy or nor do I even live in the US but China massacres it's own people for criticizing the government. I think we are better off with the US running things in the world.
    Remember....

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_T...quare_protests

    OTOH, since China is such an important Trade-Partner resp. potential Sales-Market, pretty much everyone turns a blind eye to it.
    Yes, the Governments "condemn" everytime, but what happens really?
    It always creeped me out, when Angie Merkel (german chancellor) went to visit China, and there were "Industry Representatives" in her entourage......
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  18. #138
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Quote Originally Posted by Zvoni View Post
    It was this exact event I was thinking of when I wrote that post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zvoni View Post
    OTOH, since China is such an important Trade-Partner resp. potential Sales-Market, pretty much everyone turns a blind eye to it.
    Yes, the Governments "condemn" everytime, but what happens really?
    It always creeped me out, when Angie Merkel (german chancellor) went to visit China, and there were "Industry Representatives" in her entourage......
    Well it is for the greater good. No sense in plunging the world into a massive world war over a localized event, no matter how cruel. It's disheartening, I know but there isn't much the world can do about it. The people of China have to fix this for themselves.
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  19. #139
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    The United States builds missile bases and military bases all over the world. Discretionary control of bloated government or government forces.

    Whether it is military or economic repression, they regard it as a business, even espionage is a business, such a fair world?

    Of course, everything is up to the strong. So the weak are doomed to be exploited and oppressed.

    This is why India and North Korea spend the entire country's money to build nuclear weapons.
    Because if other countries want to rob or subvert our right, it's better to die with you.

    Unfortunately, Afghanistan is too small, coupled with the overall control of the U. S. military, so he did not have the opportunity to develop military power.What nuclear power plants, atomic missiles, it is simply impossible for most people to eat enough, where the money to buy atomic bombs related materials.

    Coupled with the United States to ban other countries to sell these things, they are prohibited from selling, even more, no need to say, what missiles, the aircraft fighter is bomb.
    Last edited by xiaoyao; Sep 1st, 2021 at 06:03 PM.

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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Merkel also expressed doubts about the "withdrawal of nuclear power", and the implementation of the "gradual withdrawal of nuclear power" bill passed in 2002 was slow. It was not until the Fukushima nuclear power plant accident in Japan in 2011 that she changed her attitude and announced that she would finally withdraw from nuclear energy by the end of 2022.

    If you think a car is driving too fast, it is easy to crash, crash and die.Doesn't anyone drive?If rocket launches often fail, don't you swear?

    In fact, a lot of things depend on whether you are willing to give up?

    I heard that China once built a very big bridge, and used military tanks to drive up to test the quality of the bridge.This approach is also used in the Netherlands. As a result, the bridge was cracked by tanks, and finally it was repaired at twice the price.Shouldn't we blow it up and rebuild it?There are also many high-speed rail in operation or aircraft, aircraft carriers and other expensive assets.In theory, it has reached the age of scrap. Or there have been many quality problems.It is just like the problem of accidental launch and explosion of American aircraft carriers in the past.
    They actually put a lot of outdated and rusty missiles on the plane.

    In theory, it is very simple to scrap or throw away some products that are about to expire in advance.

    In fact, the United States may sell some weapons products that are about to expire to poor countries.

    If the nuclear power plant is designed to operate for 20 years, in the 15th year when it is scrapped, the whole rebuild, it would not be safe.

  21. #141
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Quote Originally Posted by xiaoyao View Post
    The United States builds missile bases and military bases all over the world. Discretionary control of bloated government or government forces.

    Whether it is military or economic repression, they regard it as a business, even espionage is a business, such a fair world?
    Yet the US would never publicly and indiscriminately slaughter hundreds of their own people for criticizing the government. China would though. The US is still a lot better world dictator than China could ever dream to be.
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  22. #142
    PowerPoster Zvoni's Avatar
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    Well it is for the greater good. No sense in plunging the world into a massive world war over a localized event, no matter how cruel. It's disheartening, I know but there isn't much the world can do about it. The people of China have to fix this for themselves.
    Now replace "China" with Afghanistan, and you basically have my statement from above.....
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  23. #143
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Quote Originally Posted by Zvoni View Post
    Now replace "China" with Afghanistan, and you basically have my statement from above.....
    I agree. However, going to war with Afghanistan wouldn't be the same thing as a war with a massive power like China. The Afghan war was largely confined to the middle east. A war with China would be a massive and could plunge the entire world into chaos like WW1 and WW2.
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  24. #144
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    I agree. However, going to war with Afghanistan wouldn't be the same thing as a war with a massive power like China. The Afghan war was largely confined to the middle east. A war with China would be a massive and could plunge the entire world into chaos like WW1 and WW2.
    IMO, the biggest difference regarding the last Afghan-War, a hypothetical future war with Afghanistan compared with a hypothetical war against China is that an "Afghan-War" would be asymmetric warfare:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymmetric_warfare

    And IMO, that's what broke the camel's back in Afghanistan: In the past, the US (and its allied forces) have already lost such a asymmetric war: Vietnam.
    And they didn't learn from those mistakes.
    That's why i said, as long as you cannot root out those hardliners in Afghanistan, any "policed" occupation is damned to fail.
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  25. #145
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Quote Originally Posted by Zvoni View Post
    And IMO, that's what broke the camel's back in Afghanistan: In the past, the US (and its allied forces) have already lost such a asymmetric war: Vietnam.
    And they didn't learn from those mistakes.
    That's why i said, as long as you cannot root out those hardliners in Afghanistan, any "policed" occupation is damned to fail.
    This is an interesting point but I really don't believe they lost. I believe these asymmetric wars being fought by the US has other objectives that are not publicly known. By the standards of what they tell the public, they lost but what about the secret handshakes in dark alleys? The US probably got a everything they really wanted from these wars and we just don't know about them.

    My reasoning for this belief is very simple, if the US wanted to crush these lesser powers, they could have easily done so with their far superior military but they didn't. This tells me that there are agendas that are more important than winning at play and whatever these secret goals are cannot be achieve by simply running over their enemies with their godly military might. If the US really wanted Afghanistan to behave, all it would take is a couple nukes to quiet them down.
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  26. #146
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    This is an interesting point but I really don't believe they lost. I believe these asymmetric wars being fought by the US has other objectives that are not publicly known. By the standards of what they tell the public, they lost but what about the secret handshakes in dark alleys? The US probably got a everything they really wanted from these wars and we just don't know about them.
    Everything true with the "secret handshakes", but remember in the 60's/70's there was still the cold war raging, and any country trying to go "communist" had to be prevented (remember Cuba).

    My reasoning for this belief is very simple, if the US wanted to crush these lesser powers, they could have easily done so with their far superior military but they didn't. This tells me that there are agendas that are more important than winning at play and whatever these secret goals are cannot be achieve by simply running over their enemies with their godly military might. If the US really wanted Afghanistan to behave, all it would take is a couple nukes to quiet them down.
    True, but remember "Agent orange/Napalm" in Vietnam, and the way the US actually conducted that War (Rules of Engagement) lead to the US-Military losing their backing from their own citizens.
    I remember a president (i think it was Bush Jr.) saying: "Why should i throw a 2M USD worth Bomb on a tent of a camel-shepherder?"

    In a sad way it's true, that a couple nukes would probably subdue Afghanistan...... and destroy the World 10 Minutes later, when Pakistan (has their own nukes) retaliates, then India gets involved, with finally Russia and China saying "enough"... KABOOM
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  27. #147
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    it's not achievable anymore
    I think I agree. It's technically achievable, if I'm being pedantic, but there's no way in hell Biden could politically reverse the pull out now. Just as there was no way in hell Trump could have reversed his deal, that Obama completed the draw down of troops he posited or that Bush could have backed out once he kicked the invasion off. One of the most depressing things for me generally (not just with regard to this) is that it's impossible for a politician to ever volte face on any important decision, even when the circumstances change to the point where that decision is revealed to be catastrophic.

    And that's before even considering just how much more complicated it would be militarily now.

    That's why i said, as long as you cannot root out those hardliners in Afghanistan, any "policed" occupation is damned to fail.
    I do disagree with this though. At least, I disagree if the interpretation of "rooted out" is military defeat or arrest to the point of extinction - basically defeat by force.

    My comparison would be to Ireland. The various Irish paramilitary groups were never defeated militarily and the arrests and incarcerations only served to add more fuel. What ultimately quelled the troubles in Ireland was that the British Government under Major started acting in good faith to find a way forward that served the people of Ireland on both sides, ultimately leading to the Good Friday Agreement. When we put our interests aside and started acting in the interests of Irish people, it quickly exposed the paramilitaries as thugs and made them irrelevant. We offered the people of Ireland a better offer than the paramilitaries were and it's that that we have failed to do in Afghanistan.

    Note, though, that we did not pull troops out and then start acting in good faith. The GFA was signed in 1998, the troops left in 2007. It's not policing that people object to, it's policing that appears to be in an occupier's interests instead of their own.

    I believe these asymmetric wars being fought by the US has other objectives that are not publicly known
    I think they were publicly known, just not publicly acknowledged. The objective was for successive US presidents to pursue re-election and for Western economies (particularly US and UK) to be propped up by their respective military complexes. You're not allowed to say that though. (Well, you are now, but it feels a bit late)
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  28. #148
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Quote Originally Posted by Zvoni View Post
    True, but remember "Agent orange/Napalm" in Vietnam, and the way the US actually conducted that War (Rules of Engagement) lead to the US-Military losing their backing from their own citizens.
    This makes sense. However, if you analyze this deeper and take a look at some of the wars of the past, you'd see many examples of powerful nations with imperialistic ambitions that were not above using propaganda against their own people to get them to support activities that history now sees as atrocities. The best example is Nazi Germany.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zvoni View Post
    I remember a president (i think it was Bush Jr.) saying: "Why should i throw a 2M USD worth Bomb on a tent of a camel-shepherder?"
    But if that shepherd sits on land that when economically developed would be worth more than 2M USD, they would have justification. They'd never tell the people that though. They'd say that shepherd had terrorist links or WMDs.

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    I think they were publicly known, just not publicly acknowledged. The objective was for successive US presidents to pursue re-election and for Western economies (particularly US and UK) to be propped up by their respective military complexes. You're not allowed to say that though. (Well, you are now, but it feels a bit late)
    I definitely agree with this. Like I said before, war is big business.
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  29. #149
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    I agree. However, going to war with Afghanistan wouldn't be the same thing as a war with a massive power like China. The Afghan war was largely confined to the middle east. A war with China would be a massive and could plunge the entire world into chaos like WW1 and WW2.
    When there is no objection, more than 200 countries in the world can be turned into US missile bases or military bases. If certain countries have strong military power, the United States will pay a huge price. It may lose tens of millions of American soldiers. Sometimes they just feel too shameless and become illegal invaders like Germany.

    Modern warfare has a powerful missile system. It only takes a few bombings to end the war and allow other countries to change their pro-American rulers. What the United States is afraid of is that if these countries have missiles, they will bomb some buildings in the United States again.

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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    In the past, the United States invaded Vietnam and North Korea and killed many people, but the number of deaths in that country was 20 times more than that of the United States.

    The North Vietnamese regular army and those considered to be the Viet Cong guerrillas: 1.1 million people died, 600,000 people were injured, and 330,000 people were missing.

    * U.S. Army: During the Vietnam War, the U.S. Army killed 58,000 people, injured 304,000, and over 2,000 people were missing.

    * South Vietnamese government forces: 130,000 dead and 500,000 injured.

    * South Korean army: 4,500 dead.

    * Australian Army: 500 dead and 2,400 injured.

    * Thai army: 350 people died.

    * New Zealand Army: 83 people died.

    About 26,000 casualties in China

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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    The number of deaths in the United States in the Vietnam War was nearly 60,000, but after returning to China, 100,000 soldiers chose to commit suicide. The main reason was that the impact of the Vietnam War did not end for the U.S. military. The U.S. military who committed suicide after returning home suffered from "post-war psychological synthesis". disease".

    Mountain warfare, landmine warfare, and the Americans suffered heavy casualties.
    In the 1937 China's battle against the Japanese in Songhu, Shanghai, China invested 800,000, and the Japanese army was 600,000. In the end, China died 300,000 and the Japanese died 40,000.
    It is equivalent to the Chinese sacrifice 6 people to kill a Japanese soldier.
    This still uses China's most advanced weapons and trump card army. In the face of strength, if the opponent has been using artillery fire, aircraft bomb attacks.
    It may take 100 people to die to kill one person, or all of them will be killed.

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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Moral dilemma under ethics: 9/11, why didn't the United States shoot down the plane before hitting a building?
    If there were a few more incidents of 9/11, the United States would be bombed again with several high-rise buildings, and would have lost tens of thousands of people.
    The U.S. military intervened illegally and killed tens of millions of ordinary citizens and soldiers from other countries.
    Many people die in vain, and there is no way to get revenge.

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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    In 1990, when Iraq invaded Kuwait, bin Laden asked the Saudi royal family that he was willing to lead his troops to resist Saddam. But the Saudi royal family did not pay attention to bin Laden, but directly asked the US military to help resist Iraq. As a result, at 8 pm on August 2, 1990, the United States began "Operation Desert Shield," and nearly 500,000 US troops poured into the Gulf region.

    The arrival of the U.S. army completely angered Bin Laden. He took to the street and spoke to the public, denounced the Saudi royal family and the U.S. military, "just to keep your (king) throne and let the Americans protect their oil in the Gulf, you (The King) turned Saudi Arabia into an American colony out of conscience! I must not let these dirty, unbelieving crusaders and homosexuals step into the Holy Land!"

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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    In front of the war machine, the high-tech America is like Superman, one person can kill 00 soldiers of the other side.
    A powerful country can kill half of the presidents and major armies of the world in a few days.
    Patent wars, missile wars, powerful countries can oppress weak countries arbitrarily.

    In the Gulf War, the coalition forces of the participating parties were 660,000 and Iraq was 860,000. Casualties, coalition forces: 223 killed, 697 injured, 13 captured
    Iraq: 25,000 people killed and 75,000 injured.

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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    The U.S. has withdrawn from Afghanistan in the past few days. In fact, in May, the U.S. said it would withdraw. It was delayed for three months. Afghanistan requested the U.S. to evacuate before August 31. The U.S. originally wanted to drag it for a month or two.
    But in the past, the United States did not agree to the withdrawal of troops within 21 days of others.

    During the Gulf War, the United States asked Iraq to withdraw its troops. On February 22, 1991, the Soviet Union further proposed a withdrawal plan from Iraq: the troop withdrawal began one day after the ceasefire, and the withdrawal was completed within 21 days. But it was later rejected by the United States. [4]
    As of February 23, 1991, the Multinational Force had deployed nearly 100,000 aircraft, dropped 90,000 tons of bombs, launched 288 Tomahawk cruise missiles and 35 air-launched cruise missiles, and used a series of the latest aircraft and various precision guidance. Weapons, carry out multi-directional, multi-wave, high-intensity continuous air strikes on selected targets

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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    The rise of anti-war movement in the United States From 1965 to 1973, the Vietnam issue was the focus of American political life. The slow progress of the war, the increasing casualties and the widening differences of opinion in the country eventually led Johnson to give up his re-election campaign and ended the long-term Democratic Party's dominance of the White House. In 1965, Johnson's Vietnam policy won overwhelming public support.

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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    During the three years of the Korean War, China, North Korea and the Soviet Union suffered 650,000 casualties, 197,653 Chinese killed and 30,000-50,000 American soldiers died.
    During the Vietnam War (20 years), the United States participated in the war for 15 years, and more than 50,000 people died.

    The war is terrible. We have no right to intervene in each country’s own civil war. Other countries provide weapons and send troops to allow the war to continue for 5-20 years. Who benefits from it?

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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    rs-28 The world's most powerful nuclear bomb: Salmat! One bomb is as powerful as 1600 Hiroshima bombs.

  39. #159
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Though your posts don't seem to ever come to a point, I get the sense you really don't like American imperialistic ambitions. I'd like to point out that while nobody does, we accept it because countries like China and Russia would be 1000x worse. Imperial America is 1000x better than Imperial China. At least America allows us the dignity to pretend we are free. China would massacre us indiscriminately just for speaking in the wrong tone. America is probably the reason China isn't already killing scores of people and nuking countries all over the world and just taking their stuff like all of us in the West know they want to do. If America disappeared tomorrow, I have zero doubt in my mind China would enslave half the world after killing large swathes of the population. I'm talking old school whip and chain, Nazi concentration camp slavery here, and not the infinitely tamer capitalist credit based consumerist soft slavery we have currently.

    I don't know what the intent of your posts are but I doubt you can convince anyone in the west that China would make a better world dictator than America. I'd rather die than live in such a world.
    Last edited by Niya; Sep 16th, 2021 at 10:47 PM.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Where in the World: Split Rock, and Afghan Minerals

    Chinese involvement in Afghanistan isn’t going to be fueled by a desire to do serious survey and exploration work, building out roads and rail lines, developing a meaningful power grid, and then getting into the serious work of mining. In a land-locked country. Is China then going to truck ores and minerals into Pakistan and/or Iran for shipment? Or up and over the Hindu Kush to its sparsely-inhabited Western frontier? While battling militants and tribal war lords all along the way? Very likely not.

    America did not leave behind a golden goose in the mountains of Afghanistan for the Chinese–or anyone–to come along and scoop up. Instead, China’s interests in Afghanistan lie in the same bucket of all of the neighboring states’: security, limiting cross-border militancy, and working toward some hope of containing refugee and militant flows.
    "Belt and Road" is more marketing than reality.

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