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Thread: To Afghan or to not Afghan

  1. #41

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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    I'm just thinking that the low cost in the last few years was acceptable for preventing the catastrophe that is unfolding currently. Perhaps it's not our responsibility, but we have pretty much accepted that, at the very least, nobody else will do it.
    Yeah, as I said I understand your logic. I don't claim it's wrong. As I also said, my attitude is probably selfish. Luckily for the world no president has ever called me and asked my advise.

  2. #42
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    Was reading this article on the large amount of mineral resources that Afghanistan has. Excellent article, https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/18/busin...ing/index.html

    But I was really astounded by this,


    If that's true, it may help explain why I have such a hard time understanding their country. My family was poor but not like that and 90% of the population, it's tragic.
    This is normal outside of the Anglo-Sphere and 1st world nations. In my country, if you're making $9 US/hr, you're living big. That's minimum wage in the US if I'm not mistaking but I can't say that our standard of living is bad or anything. We live quite comfortably. 1st world workers are over-paid. People from my country go to the US and do jobs that Americans snub their noses at, then they come back and live like Kings!
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  3. #43
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Where do you start though?

    Minerals exploitation has been a big reason so many regimes have gone into Afghanistan. China is rubbing its hands with glee right now at the thought. There are riches there, but getting them out takes a major effort beyond individual and small-time mining operations.

    There are other crosses borne by the third world. For example, after the EU:

    The United States is now the largest exporter of plastic waste to Non-OECD countries and California accounts for 27% of the plastic waste. More than any other state, California’s recycling facilities continue to accept plastic waste that is exported to developing countries that have weak wage and age labor standards and few environmental protections.
    Then comes the UK. then Canada, etc. down the list.


    There is no shortage of injustice. The problem is everyone playing "libertarian" about it and blaming everyone else.

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  4. #44
    Super Moderator dday9's Avatar
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Libertarian: One who builds a high board fence around his yard but walks his dog to crap in his neighbors' lawns. One with no conscience and a surplus of imaginary virtue.
    Just as I would expect, you have a very cartoonish take on libertarianism.

    I don’t know why you would want to switch to plastic exportation, perhaps because a neo-con take on war is difficult to justify, but whatever the reason is the point should be that Biden should be applauded for pulling out of Afghanistan. Even if he did move the date from May to Sept. 1 for political reasons, at least he did it and didn’t push it into a theoretical second term.
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    I generally support Biden (he's been a breath of fresh air after 4 years of Trump) but I'm afraid he does bear some of the blame for just how bad this has been.
    I don't have a problem with blaming Biden for what's his fault. Like I said earlier, I'm very much of the opinion that a withdrawal should have been planned and staged over a much longer period. We don't know what was being done behind the scenes beforehand but the announcement that it was actually going to happen and then it happening seemed to be quite sudden. The fact that Biden was talking about 9/11 just showed that they were undoubtedly going for an effect instead of considering what was best for the withdrawal itself. The thing is though, Trump claimed that he wanted to be out even earlier and he would have been basing his decisions on the very same (apparently faulty) military intelligence that Biden was using. The idea that Biden has messed something up that would have been smooth under Trump is simply false, but that's not standing in the way of people trying to score points. The fact is that, no matter how this was done, someone was going to be last out so, if the US withdrew its troops more slowly and the Taliban had advanced more slowly, there still would have had to be a last plane out of Kabul so I'm not sure that these same scenes wouldn't have played out somehow, at some stage anyway.

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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Deleted ...
    Last edited by SearchingDataOnly; Aug 19th, 2021 at 01:47 AM.

  7. #47
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    I like Zvoni's post but what confuses me is why is that region 900yrs behind? That's a long time.
    If you think about it, it's actually pretty clear why (at least in my opinion):
    They never had something like a Renaissance. They never had people like Da Vinci, Boticelli, Dante, Shakespeare.
    They never went through their own Age of Enlightenment. They never had their own Isaac Newton, Francis Bacon, Benjamin Franklin, Immanuel Kant.

    They never went through their own Age of Industrialisation.

    I once saw a documentation about the near east, where some Sheikh was portrayed
    This Sheikh was visiting some removed villages, where the villagers could apply for help from him, tell him their worries and what not.
    Sounds familiar? Remember feudal system in Europe. But this happens today.

    Basically, up until some 60-70 years ago, they were still farmers and shepherders, with their age old family structures imposed by the interpretation of the Qur'an, with nobody interested in them.
    ....until someone dug a whole in the ground to search for water, and some black mess sprouted 200 feet into the air.....

    And suddenly they found themselves with still their old structures, but with the rest of the world suddenly VERY interested in them.
    Clash of cultures!
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  8. #48
    Super Moderator jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Quote Originally Posted by Zvoni View Post
    If you think about it, it's actually pretty clear why (at least in my opinion):
    They never had something like a Renaissance. They never had people like Da Vinci, Boticelli, Dante, Shakespeare.
    They never went through their own Age of Enlightenment. They never had their own Isaac Newton, Francis Bacon, Benjamin Franklin, Immanuel Kant.

    They never went through their own Age of Industrialisation.

    I once saw a documentation about the near east, where some Sheikh was portrayed
    This Sheikh was visiting some removed villages, where the villagers could apply for help from him, tell him their worries and what not.
    Sounds familiar? Remember feudal system in Europe. But this happens today.

    Basically, up until some 60-70 years ago, they were still farmers and shepherders, with their age old family structures imposed by the interpretation of the Qur'an, with nobody interested in them.
    ....until someone dug a whole in the ground to search for water, and some black mess sprouted 200 feet into the air.....

    And suddenly they found themselves with still their old structures, but with the rest of the world suddenly VERY interested in them.
    Clash of cultures!
    It's worth considering that, often times, one thing can turn the tide of events considerably. I'm not an expert on Islamic history but it's my understanding that the Islamic world was at the forefront of maths and science knowledge and endeavour some time in the past until one particular leader decided that that was ungodly and the religion as a whole took a turn for the worse. If not for that particular religious leader, Islam may have looked rather different today.

  9. #49
    PowerPoster Zvoni's Avatar
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    It's worth considering that, often times, one thing can turn the tide of events considerably. I'm not an expert on Islamic history but it's my understanding that the Islamic world was at the forefront of maths and science knowledge and endeavour some time in the past until one particular leader decided that that was ungodly and the religion as a whole took a turn for the worse. If not for that particular religious leader, Islam may have looked rather different today.
    Correct. The near East was basically the leading region in regards to math and science (especially medicine) some 1000 years ago. Remember, we actually use "arabic" Numbers/Digits

    In Europe before the middle Ages it was a respected occupation to be a "healer", knowing your herbs and what not.
    But that was knowledge, that the "church" didn't have, and as everyone knows: Knowledge is power.
    How many "wise" women were accused of witchcraft and burned at the stake?
    Just remember Galileo Galilei or Giordano Bruno.
    Europe/Christianity wasn't that much different before the Renaissance/Age of Enlightenment
    Last edited by Zvoni; Tomorrow at 31:69 PM.
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  10. #50
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    What "unannounced overnight" withdrawal? Biden announce the withdrawal in April.
    In April he announced a complete drawdown by September the 11th. The complete pull out a week ago, a month ahead of that schedule, was unilateral and only announced the day before. The withdrawal from Bagram at the beginning of July was similarly handled - in fact it wasn't announced at all.

    Honestly, I have enough of a problem with the decision to draw down date of Sep 11th which was clearly chosen for political expediency rather than military efficacy but I am sympathetic to the view that there would simply never have been a "right" time to withdraw. I do feel, however, there was definitely a "wrong" manner in which to withdraw and this is it.

    It's probably a selfish attitude, but I can live with that
    Selfish, yes, but understandably so when you're talking about families etc. I think we're probably on the same page there. I do have a problem with your position, though, in that it's emotional rather than rational. There have been no deaths in action in Afghanistan since 2016 and there was only 1 in that year. It was not a hot war zone where the troops were significantly at risk. However, I do think we turned Afghanistan into a boogeyman over the last 20 years which made it politically expedient to be seen to pull out whether that was a rational thing to do or not.

    How does "just in too many places" invalidate a parents concern?
    I'm really sympathetic to this. Per my previous paragraph, it's not rational, but who the hell expects a parent concern to be rational?! Nobody could reasonably expect that. However, I don't feel foreign policy should be driven by emotions. It's the job of military commanders (which includes the President) to put emotion aside and be driven by reason.

    I'd be surprised if more US troops aren't killed in training accidents than are killed in wars
    They actually are if you look at the last few years. Obviously that's different if you look at a period when you're engaged in a hot war but during "cold" times, yeah, you're right. I support your point.

    Each president from Bush up until Biden kicked the Afghanistan can down the road because the results we are seeing now are inevitable.
    Yeah, that! I don't want to place that squarely at the US's door either. Our own Prime minister's all did the same.

    The thing is though, Trump claimed that he wanted to be out even earlier and he would have been basing his decisions on the very same (apparently faulty) military intelligence that Biden was using.
    100% agree and my intention is not to let Trump of the hook but rather to call out Biden on what he got wrong. I very much doubt it would have been better under Trump.

    They never had something like a Renaissance.
    They absolutely did. It preceded ours and ours was largely driven by the crusades which exposed our dark aged world to their already enlightened one. However, our renaissance combined with the distribution of resources that fuelled the early industrial age (i.e. coal rather than oil) allowed us to leapfrog past them to the point that we were more advanced by the 19th century. It's easy for us to think of the Christian world as more advanced than the Islamic because that has been true in recent history but it's inaccurate if you go any further back. For most of history since the collapse of the Roman Empire and the inception of Islam, the Islamic world was more advanced than the Christian and the European renaissance was built on the backs of Islamic scholars.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Aug 19th, 2021 at 07:52 AM.
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  11. #51
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Their renaissance and for that matters Europe renaissance was build on the Greek principles and Alexander also did spread some renaissance (while conquering) .
    Many of their major cities names are actually Greek ancient names.
    Kabul was after either Kophen that mean basket in Greek or as the Greek geographer Ptolemy (died c. 170 CE) recorded Kabul as Kabura, meaning hump (like hump of camel).
    Alexander kingdom of Bactria, the ancient Greek state in Afganistan.
    https://greekreporter.com/2021/08/16...anistan-video/
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    100% agree and my intention is not to let Trump of the hook but rather to call out Biden on what he got wrong. I very much doubt it would have been better under Trump.
    Yeah, I'm perfectly fine with people criticising Biden for what he got wrong. I guess I was harking back to my original point that that's not what many on the right are doing. I guess we shouldn't expected any different and that's also not to say that those on the left would be immune if the show were on the other foot. There's little doubt that Biden is being criticised for aspects of this that Trump would not have been and probably would have been praised for. I've seen people saying things like the US will never be trusted by its allies after this, while ignoring the fact that Trump withdrew US troops from somewhere (can't recall where right now) not too long ago and left the US' allies to the mercy of Turkey, who immediately moved in and took advantage. From the perspective of betraying an ally, that was far worse than what's happening in Afghanistan right now.

  13. #53
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    They absolutely did. It preceded ours and ours was largely driven by the crusades which exposed our dark aged world to their already enlightened one. However, our renaissance combined with the distribution of resources that fuelled the early industrial age (i.e. coal rather than oil) allowed us to leapfrog past them to the point that we were more advanced by the 19th century. It's easy for us to think of the Christian world as more advanced than the Islamic because that has been true in recent history but it's inaccurate if you go any further back. For most of history since the collapse of the Roman Empire and the inception of Islam, the Islamic world was more advanced than the Christian and the European renaissance was built on the backs of Islamic scholars.
    I'll take your word for it, since i'm definitely no expert in this.
    The difference i see:
    Yeah, they had their Renaissance as did Europe (and i trust what you said: even way before Europe).
    BUT in Europe the Renaissance was immediately followed by the Enlightenment, which was followed by Industrialisation, with the religious leaders not being able (or even allowed) to claim their stakes on knowledge (or whatever else) in either period.
    Last edited by Zvoni; Tomorrow at 31:69 PM.
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  14. #54
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    They "borrowed" Greek renaissance to have theirs is the correct term. Go Greece!!!
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  15. #55
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    After thinking about it, i think Renaissance is the wrong term, since it means "Rebirth" (and in that sense rediscovery of forgotten knowledge).
    In that sense, i think my statement still holds true, that the muslim world in the near east never had a rediscovery of "old" knowledge, which still implies they are in their middle Ages.
    Yes, they had knowledge (math, science, medicine etc.) way before Europe, but as Sapator stated, a lot of it originated from greek influences --> and isn't this the irony, that this knowledge was gained way before Mohammed......
    Then came Religion (in that case as stated some religious leader), and took over, surpressed everything not conforming to their interpretation of faith
    They just didn't have a "Rediscovery" since then.

    What Europe had just prior/during/at the beginning to the Renaissance (and the muslim world in the near east didn't have):
    Henry VIII --> Founding his own church/breaking from the catholic church for him to be able to divorce his first wife --> limiting the power of the leading christian religious leaders
    Martin Luther --> Re-interpreting christian faith, and thusly breaking from catholic dogma --> limiting the power of the leading christian religious leaders
    Both examples describe the then upcoming Protestantism (in all its current colors today), but both have in common, that the people curbed the power of the catholic church
    And yes, i'm aware there has been wars fought because of that.

    I think without it, the Renaissance, the Enlightenment wouldn't have happened in Europe.
    Last edited by Zvoni; Aug 19th, 2021 at 06:02 AM.
    Last edited by Zvoni; Tomorrow at 31:69 PM.
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  16. #56
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve R Jones View Post
    The only thing that has happened is uneducated people say stupid things about us.
    But sometimes, what you think is stupid is just your failure to grasp the new reality of the situation.

    Afghanistan is a humiliation for America.

    All those that are anti-American will take it as that as a given fact. Some of those that are on the USA's side will try to spin it as not such a massive defeat. You can spin it anyway you like but America's involvement in Afghanistan ended in failure for both USA's military and political aims in the region. Did it act as a punishment for 11/9? No. I think the lesson learnt here by the Taliban is that you CAN whip the USA's arse and get away with it.

    It doesn't bode well for us that rely on the USA's military support and involvement, including my country. I am appalled by the result, family members fought in Helmand Province and suffered because of it.

    Steve, whether you think I am stupid or not is irrelevant, I am just saying it as it is, no spin. If you can't face reality then you (as a nation) can't learn from your mistakes (or those of others) so you're doomed to re-enact the failures again and again.

    The UK suffered similar ignominious policy defeat in the retreat from Suez (mostly at the hands of the USA) and so we learnt early to "suck it up", soon adjusting to our new lower place in the world. It wasn't pleasant but reality isn't designed for our convenience and isn't always tasty. The sooner you learn it the sooner you will adjust.

    So, I'll say it again just to be sure - Afghanistan was a humiliation for the USA. Not Biden, not Trump. Humiliation for the USA.
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    There's little doubt that Biden is being criticised for aspects of this that Trump would not have been and probably would have been praised for.
    Oh, I'd agree with that and some of the things I've heard coming from Fox over the last week have been pretty awful. They're already loading up the "we don't owe refugees a home" cart which I find truly hateful. We invaded their country... so there's that. They put themselves at risk to help our cause... so there's that too.

    Again, though, not an exclusively American problem - elements of our press in Blighty are doing exactly the same. We talked about whether Wes's position was selfish and... kinda. But "we should leave people who helped us to suffer and die because I can't get housing benefit"... now that's selfish. God, it's depressing.

    (While I'm about criticizing Fox, Tucker Carlson has actually taken to holding up Viktor Orban as a paragon of right wing values. If you don't know, Orban is the president of Hungary and is a straight up fascist. For shame!)

    They "borrowed" Greek renaissance
    To be pedantic, they borrowed the Latin one. The Romans borrowed the Greek one.

    After thinking about it, i think Renaissance is the wrong term, since it means "Rebirth" (and in that sense rediscovery of forgotten knowledge)
    Now we're getting really pedantic, but yeah, you're sorta, kinda right. I could make the argument that Muslim scholars did rediscover ancient knowledge rather than have it handed to them as they spread into the great sites of the Byzantine Empire, the Levant and Egypt but, in truth, it was kinda a mix of both rediscovery and being taught. Let's call it a no-score draw.
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    Super Moderator dday9's Avatar
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    There have been no deaths in action in Afghanistan since 2016 and there was only 1 in that year. It was not a hot war zone where the troops were significantly at risk.
    This statement is wrong. My brother, who was stationed at Bagram Air Base from 2015 - 2016, loss several friends just before leaving.

    The way that the Department of Defense can get around reporting almost no KIAs is that if a soldier is gravely injured in Afghanistan, put on a flight to Germany for medical support, and then dies, then it is no longer counted as a death in Afghanistan.
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    So, I'll say it again just to be sure - Afghanistan was a humiliation for the USA. Not Biden, not Trump. Humiliation for the USA.
    It's kinda stupid telling people that something is a humiliation for them because whether or not it actually is a humiliation depends solely on whether they are humiliated. Whether something should be humiliating is irrelevant to whether it is. What it definitely is is a defeat and I think that any sensible American would admit that, but there are obviously plenty who aren't sensible. It is definitely something that Americans and their leaders should learn from, although many of those Americans were against the Afghan invasion in the first place, because they already had a fair idea of what would happen. To be frank, it may well be better that they are not humiliated because people who think that they are entitled to a position of power will often behave erratically and irrationally of they feel that it is being taken from them and matters are beyond their control. If they feel like they are still in control, they are more likely to consider that a different course of action may be prudent to achieve or maintain their position of power in the future. Of course, some people or peoples will never learn, but then telling them that they should be humiliated is not going to change that.

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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Quote Originally Posted by Zvoni View Post
    Then came Religion (in that case as stated some religious leader), and took over, surpressed everything not conforming to their interpretation of faith
    They just didn't have a "Rediscovery" since then.
    That doesn't fit the timeline. Islam came before the crusades, and at the time of the crusades, that part of the world was still well ahead of Europe in science. Europe had the arrogance, they had the science.
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    That in contrast is not entirely valid also.

    The Byzantine empire gave them the knowledge. They only exceeded at some point a little before and after Constantinople was taken by the Turks.
    I would agree on "Europe" as central and North Europe having no science but Europe is also the Byzantine empire.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_science
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    This statement is wrong.
    A key part of my sentence was "deaths in action". I won't argue with you that definitions can be (and I'm not surprised to hear, are) massaged to produce a desired statistic. That doesn't particularly surprise me at all and reinforces the view point that we've both expressed that successive governments have been presenting the best view of the situation, even if it doesn't truly reflect reality.

    FYI, I took my figures from Wikipedia here and used the second "in action" table. The first table includes the wider definition you're using. The numbers are still statistically small and already outstripped by civilian Afghan deaths attributable to the pull out in the last week. (I say statistically because if your child happens to be one of the few it sure as hell wouldn't feel insignificant).
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    It's kinda stupid telling people that something is a humiliation for them because whether or not it actually is a humiliation depends solely on whether they are humiliated.
    Well, reality is going to change that version of reality soon and your inability to recognise it might equally be construed as stupidity. So, let's stop calling people stupid as that does not advance anyone's position, it simply negates it. So, let's stop name calling or implying the same.

    I think my point is that you need to face up to the reality of the situation and accept it. The situation is appalling and that is a fact. That defeat. Stand up bravely and fight - or run away with your tale between your legs, that is the difference between bravery and humiliation, we know what running away did to the USA last time - a complete overhaul of the military and a retreat from large scale military intervention for 20 years.

    Regardless of how you see it, the world (outside America) sees it as a humiliation and it will go down in the history books as such.

    How you deal with politically now in your country and how it helps you deal with it is entirely down to you. You do need to understand that talking it away doesn't work and handle how you will, the humiliation is a fact. The defeat was a fact. That's all there is to talk about.

    Apportion blame if you will, there is very little positive to come from this.

    More importantly, how to avoid this sort of failure in the future and how will the USA react in the face of this humiliation. Will it retrench?
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  24. #64
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    I don't see it as humiliation of the USA , I see it more as cowboy sh%t and I'm waiting of an invasion of refugees in my country because of that.
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  25. #65
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker;[URL="tel:5532550"
    5532550[/URL]]That doesn't fit the timeline. Islam came before the crusades, and at the time of the crusades, that part of the world was still well ahead of Europe in science. Europe had the arrogance, they had the science.
    Shaggy, all true what you said.
    My point is: Yes, the muslim world of the near east at the times of the crusades was way more knowledgeable than Europe, BUT while Europe progressed to the Renaissance and Enlightenment, the islam world stagnated and started to regress.
    And now (and at a guess for the last 200 years) that regression is now at this extremist end (as Europe was during the Middle Ages), but they didn‘t have their Renaissance and Enlightenment to get out of this deep pit.
    and now add the clash of interests of the last 60-70 years because of oil.
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  26. #66

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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    In April he announced a complete drawdown by September the 11th. The complete pull out a week ago, a month ahead of that schedule, was unilateral and only announced the day before. The withdrawal from Bagram at the beginning of July was similarly handled - in fact it wasn't announced at all.
    So the plan to withdrawal was announced back in April. But you think the government should have given more worldwide notice of the actually troop withdrawal date. Who does that benefit, maybe your enemies. Not that they needed it. lol
    As for what and when the Afghan government and others inside Afghanistan knew, I haven't heard anything about that. Well that's not true, I heard one Biden admin rep say that they told the civilians ahead of time but most of them wanted to stay because they thought by leaving it would send a sign of no confidence. But I don't give that story much weight, sounds like standard political cover your arse stuff.

    It's kinda stupid telling people that something is a humiliation for them because whether or not it actually is a humiliation depends solely on whether they are humiliated.
    Humiliation never crossed my mind. My thoughts were of sadness for the Afghan people and all the people that have died over the past 20yrs fighting for change and nothing was accomplished. It seems to have been a complete failure. The only positive I can see is that most of the Afghan people got to live 20yrs without Taliban suppression.
    Last edited by wes4dbt; Aug 19th, 2021 at 02:44 PM.

  27. #67
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    It seems to have been a complete failure.
    Yes, how appalling.
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  28. #68

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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    Yes, how appalling.
    lol

    Hope this wont keep you up at night. But what or who is so appalling. That the US pulled it's troop out. That the Afghan government/military let the Taliban take over without a fight. That the Uk or EU hasn't stepped up and keep the Taliban in check. Or are you just appalled in general.

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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    I don’t know if the United States invested in it or was it mainly to take away minerals. But the country has not changed at all, and it is the poorest country in the world (6th from the bottom).
    For countries such as Japan and South Korea that invest in the United States, their GDP has become one of the best in the world.
    In this regard, it is not as good as the United States facing the new crown epidemic.
    As long as you have the heart to help change, it shouldn't be difficult. Maybe because the two organizations have weapons and do not intervene by force, there is no way for the people to open factories and work, or become a paradise resort for tourism.

    A small country is always troubled by the wars of other countries, which is too miserable. A large country like India has also become a colonial underground vassal state of Britain. But India's rich cities are still relatively developed. There is a big difference between rich and poor. And Afghanistan is almost entirely poor, and the city is still at the level of 80 years ago

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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    China has entered the era of high housing prices. A house near the university costs US$4 million (about 100 square meters), and the price per square meter reaches US$40,000. There are many new cities that can be developed.

    Wanting to develop minerals in Afghanistan is completely worthless, and there is no inexhaustible oil, so the United States has abandoned it. Instead, it is better to develop real estate in a promising city. It's just that real estate has to be related to the government, and it is difficult for ordinary entrepreneurs to enter.

    In very states and some relatively poor countries, some Chinese manufacturers produce some cheap commodities such as daily necessities and TV sets, but their profits are actually very low.

  31. #71
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    Hope this wont keep you up at night.
    Well, it does actually and so it should. Many are likely to die from this point on. If you can't fully understand the seriousness of the situation maybe you shouldn't be asking me. This isn't point scoring.

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    But what or who is so appalling.
    >?<

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt
    It seems to have been a complete failure.
    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    Yes, how appalling.
    Actually I was agreeing with you. Perhaps this is a failure of a common language. I am responding using English methods of speech and you may be hearing it in an American tone that does not translate. I cannot explain further.

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    Or are you just appalled in general
    >?<

    Yes, I am appalled in general. The utter disaster that is left by USA's involvement in Afghanistan. All of it.The complete waste of time, the needless deaths, the country abandoned. The Taliban winning.

    Isn't that enough to be appalled by?
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  32. #72
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    The Taliban winning.
    I curious about why you think the United States needed to fight the Taliban to begin with.
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Quote Originally Posted by dday9 View Post
    I curious about why you think the United States needed to fight the Taliban to begin with.
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  34. #74

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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Yes, I am appalled in general. The utter disaster that is left by USA's involvement in Afghanistan. All of it.The complete waste of time, the needless deaths, the country abandoned.
    You seem to only be appalled by the US. Do you think the Afghan peoples lives would have been better if the US would have never been there? That their lives during the 20yrs our forces were there would have been better under the Taliban for those 20yrs. That seems to be what your saying, "The complete waste of time,". Maybe your right. Though I don't think so. But also, I'm undoubtedly bias. Do you remember what Afghanistan was like in 2001? It wasn't all unicorns and rainbow farts.

    I should point out, as I did in the original post. I was against having troops in Afghanistan. Yes trying to build up the Afghan government and military so they could maintain their own independence was a failure. But the US tried, I don't feel bad about that. I do feel bad for all concerned that it didn't work.
    Last edited by wes4dbt; Aug 20th, 2021 at 11:02 PM.

  35. #75

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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    This also surprises me, https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/21/polit...ion/index.html

    They're moving 5- 10 thousand people a day. The government is talking about getting help from commercial airlines. Hard to believe the US military can't handle such a small number. The commercial airline wouldn't be going into Afghanistan but picking up people that have been evacuated. I envisioned our military capable of moving 50 - 100 thousand troops a day.

    They should have just used Amazon. Would have been all delivered in two days. Done. lol

  36. #76
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    They should have just used Amazon. Would have been all delivered in two days. Done. lol
    If FedEx has grounded planes because of Amazon, this is their chance to recoup their delivery revenue losses since they're enrolled in the Civil Reserve Air Fleet.
    Last edited by Peter Porter; Aug 22nd, 2021 at 03:56 PM.

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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    This will get a few froglegs twitching:



    Good old neoliberal Joe eh?

  38. #78

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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    This is a fairly in depth article from the NYT. Gives a timeline of events and the players. https://news.yahoo.com/miscue-miscue...151402423.html

    How fair and accurate? I don't know, you can judge if you want.

    Lots of miscalculations (large ones), bad decisions and politics.

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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    In China, every city and every village has been connected to cement road broadband.

    Afghanistan tens of trillion US dollar minerals, in fact, truly, no country is interested. First of all, Afghanistan's mineral is very much, but it is actually no real exploration calculation. Second, Afghanistan is a high-altitude mountain country,

    The infrastructure is very backward, and there is hardly a decent road in the country. It can be said that there are no supporting facilities, for example, mining needs water, electricity and roads, and it does not have them. If enterprises want to develop, they will have to bear a very heavy burden. Complete supporting systems and roads will be built in mountainous areas thousands of meters above sea level.

  40. #80
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    Re: To Afghan or to not Afghan

    Yeah, there are trillions in minerals in Afghanistan, but no infrastructure. The minerals are there, it would just cost more than they are worth to extract them.

    Sounds like China might try, though. It's like a badge of empire, to get mired in Afghanistan until you realize it's hopeless and quit.
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