-
Jul 10th, 2021, 01:30 PM
#41
Re: Critical Race Theory
Yeah it does seem to cut both ways. Cheap goods from over seas and less jobs hear. More jobs here and prices go ways up. Which is driven in large part by how expensive it is to live in the US. I wouldn't blame the retail market, not where I live at least, it's housing costs. A decent one bedroom apartment is $1,300 a month and Modesto is definitely not the high rent district of Ca., in San Fran it would be @ triple that.
My son is an assistant produce manger and make @ $22hr., sounds decent but it's not enough. His job has been dramatically affected by something that has nothing to do with Globalism. Grocery store clerks/produce works ... use to be good jobs that you could raise a family on but they have been losing ground for years. The main reason, places like Walmart or warehouse house stores. They pay their people significantly less, so they can sell for less. This works because we are willing to accept crappy service if it saves us money. This is true in many things, we put up with customer service that makes us talk to a computer/press buttons for ten minutes and then be put on hold for 30 minutes just to talk to a human with a very narrow band of knowledge.
Blue collar job that pay middle class wages seem to be a dwindling. It seem the gap between them and the middle class is growing. My daughter is an RN and makes three times the hourly wage as my son. Obviously the answer is everyone should go to college but it's not that simple. There are plenty of college degree that are low income degrees or have a small job market. Plus not everyone is wired for school.
The blue collar work force was thriving in the 70's, some thing has changed. I don't know if globalism is the problem or the fact change is natural and we need to be ready to adapt.
Last edited by wes4dbt; Jul 10th, 2021 at 07:51 PM.
-
Jul 10th, 2021, 05:12 PM
#42
Re: Critical Race Theory
I'd worry that even with the reshaping of the world many of those working class jobs won't be returning. Don't confuse the working class with the middle class which does quite well for itself. The Biden core constituency making $175K family incomes and up (way up in high living cost regions).
Work that had gone overseas will probably be brought back, but to Mexico. That means higher consumer prices but not as high as if they came back to the U.S. Mexico makes sense because their demographics support such work and make them an important market once they have more money in their hands.
That still leaves some skilled-trade, construction and repair, lawn care, and pea picking jobs here but we have those now. Retail jobs face a lot of pressure from automation and online sales already and I don't see that changing. Stockbots would cost even more jobs in that sector, and those seem quite plausible today.
It feels like the gap between the haves and have-nots will only grow as skills and education become more important in the jobs left within the U.S.
UBI is a dicey proposition. I can see the day when Mexicans will be pretty upset that they have to work while Americans are getting a free ride. That's just the endgame of NAFTA. It's too bad that the USMCA didn't address that, but we're still joined at the hip with Mexico and likely to become even more so.
-
Jul 10th, 2021, 11:55 PM
#43
Re: Critical Race Theory
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
People want to pay less for the loads of crap we all buy.
This is something that pisses me off. There are loads of people in the US, UK, Australia and the rest of the Western world complaining about the rise of China but we did that. We wanted good lives for ourselves but we also wanted to pay bugger all for our stuff so we were happy to pay low prices for stuff made by exploited Chinese workers while complaining about the jobs lost in our own countries to China.
-
Jul 11th, 2021, 05:21 AM
#44
Re: Critical Race Theory
I'm not sure how "we" did that, but those who took in deep breaths of the conspicuous consumerism opium smoke certainly contributed and eventually got addicted to it. So yeah, today it is normal to demand more and more cheap goods and throw them away on a whim.
Many are now like addicted monkeys. You can blame the monkeys or drug pushers, take your pick. Meanwhile it has become fodder for comedians that young low income folks have dissipated their incomes on 3 weeks of unique outfits with matching "clean, like new" sneakers for each one.
Caution: late night adult comedy, i.e. language inappropriate for young audiences:
This isn't a simple moral weakness, it is an example of exploitation to the degree it has become cultural.
-
Jul 11th, 2021, 05:29 AM
#45
Re: Critical Race Theory
Originally Posted by dilettante
I'm not sure how "we" did that
I can't tell whether you're feigning ignorance or stupidity or not feigning at all.
-
Jul 11th, 2021, 06:43 AM
#46
Re: Critical Race Theory
Huh? I think both workers and consumers are the victims. In most cases those are the very same people.
Why blame the victim for the acts of the aggressor, the globalist?
-
Jul 11th, 2021, 06:57 AM
#47
Re: Critical Race Theory
Change is already under way:
Zeihan has his own biases though. He's lived in New Zealand and admits that he has had the paperwork approved to retire there before too long. It's natural that he paints a rosy future for them.
-
Jul 11th, 2021, 08:13 AM
#48
Re: Critical Race Theory
I think both workers and consumers are the victims.
In no way are Western consumers "victims" in this. I wouldn't portray them as aggressors but they've benefitted from the poverty of others and are now losing some of that privilege. That does not make them victims.
Last edited by FunkyDexter; Jul 11th, 2021 at 08:18 AM.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill
Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd
-
Jul 11th, 2021, 10:58 AM
#49
Re: Critical Race Theory
I take myself as an example. I'm a fish biologist and write programs for fish biology, so I don't work in either a factory or in retail services. I'm also not rich...cause fish biology, while fun, is not terribly lucrative. I can see that I am complicit in buying things that have lower prices. I can also see that some of the things we are making don't last all that long, but it's not like we have a market of all the things that CAN be made. Instead, we have a market of all the things that somebody feels they can sell in sufficient numbers to justify setting up the supply chain for it.
Still, I can see how I could be said to be complicit, but not how I could said to be a victim...of pretty much ANYTHING. Would I, as a fish biologist, be better off if I was paying more for everything, even if it meant there were more high paying factory jobs? I can't find a sound argument for that, so I'd like to hear one.
Also, this is a HIGHLY agricultural area. Guess who works the fields. Our cheap food is cheap for a reason...and yeah, when you use it, it pretty quickly turns into crap.
My usual boring signature: Nothing
-
Jul 11th, 2021, 11:22 AM
#50
Re: Critical Race Theory
Originally Posted by FunkyDexter
In no way are Western consumers "victims" in this. I wouldn't portray them as aggressors but they've benefitted from the poverty of others and are now losing some of that privilege. That does not make them victims.
So those on the losing side of growing income inequality with narrowing prospects and opportunity are just losers who brought it upon themselves while those winning are simply virtuous and entitled to their gains? That can't be right, I have to have misunderstood.
-
Jul 11th, 2021, 11:39 AM
#51
Re: Critical Race Theory
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
Would I, as a fish biologist, be better off if I was paying more for everything, even if it meant there were more high paying factory jobs? I can't find a sound argument for that, so I'd like to hear one.
We'll see how you feel after they come after your pension. If you are lucky maybe they'll cash it out into a 401(k) at 50 cents on the dollar. Or have you already lost your Defined Benefit pensions there and been jammed into an ersatz 401(a) plan?
-
Jul 11th, 2021, 12:06 PM
#52
Re: Critical Race Theory
I don't remember corporate America ever asking me, do you want cheap goods at the cost of less well paying jobs for Americans. I just go to the store store and try to get the best value for my money. It would be my guess that's what most people do. There is a "Buy American Made" push going on now but this is well after the businesses have already been moved overseas. If a person is in a financial situation where they don't mind paying more for something just because of where it was made, that's great. But I don't fault someone for choosing to pay less. The only time I don't look at the price tag when I'm shopping is when I'm in the Dollar Store.
-
Jul 11th, 2021, 02:17 PM
#53
Re: Critical Race Theory
Originally Posted by dilettante
We'll see how you feel after they come after your pension. If you are lucky maybe they'll cash it out into a 401(k) at 50 cents on the dollar. Or have you already lost your Defined Benefit pensions there and been jammed into an ersatz 401(a) plan?
For one thing, that has nothing to do with it, for another, I'm not worried about it. Yeah, I'm going to end up with a Defined Benefit pension (already have one paying out, oddly enough), and it will still be around, and you probably know why. Still, what organizations do about retirement benefits is largely up to them. Manufacturers have been cutting those, as you noted, but non-manufacturers have not. It depends on how your industry is doing, and what they prioritize. I happen to be in an area where there have not been a whole lot of...well, changes, I suppose. The economics of fish biology haven't changed the same as some other industries...and when it changes, it seems to get better, not worse. It's an odd feature of the field. When we know what is causing a problem in some place, we tend to find out that it is us, and that the changes are politically unpopular, so the solution is often to claim that we haven't studied it thoroughly enough, and throw more money at biologists.
So, while I'm not worried about it, you're generalizing without reason. There are certainly businesses that are converting defined benefit plans. If the business is healthy, then they don't cash out at 50 cents on the dollar, they cash it out at 200 cents on the dollar. You need the worst case scenario to come true, and for some people you'd be right, but not for me and not for most programmers, I would guess.
My usual boring signature: Nothing
-
Jul 11th, 2021, 03:13 PM
#54
Re: Critical Race Theory
I would be terrified of a defined benefit plan right now. With more money being printed every year and interest rates being kept artificially low, how one could retire today and have any sense of security when it is almost guaranteed that the purchasing power of their defined benefit will dwindle rapidly is beyond me.
If I were close to retirement right now, just like any investment, I would want to be diversified. A single paid annuity to give you some guarantee on top of moderately aggressive fund to (at the very least) keep up with inflation.
-
Jul 11th, 2021, 04:17 PM
#55
Re: Critical Race Theory
It depends on the plan. Many public sector DB pensions include COLAs, though most private sector ones do not. If your plan has no COLA provision then yes, they could end up paying you pennies on the dollar originally invested and you are on your own.
DC "pensions" are entirely different, and your position on retirement depends on market conditions during your retirement years. It isn't possible for individuals to manage theirs effectively, because normally invested funds involve taking gains off the table at appropriate points and placing them back into the casino once conditions improve. 401(a) gives you nearly zero control, and both 457 and 401(k) were designed to limit that sort of thing from the beginning. Rollovers to IRAs can give you a little more wiggle room but still not very much.
Annuities might look good right now if you have the cash to put into them. But fixed annuities have already started drying up over the last 18 months and rolling 401(k) money into annuities can be a dicey proposition. Fees can eat you alive and many have no provision to be passed down to beneficiaries.
But now we're in really muddy waters where opinions will be strong and wildly variable and I'm not qualified to tell anyone else what to do.
-
Jul 12th, 2021, 03:35 AM
#56
Re: Critical Race Theory
Not the word I would have chosen but I guess, yes, in so far as they are losing some of their privilege.
who brought it upon themselves
I didn't say that. In fact I went out of my way to say that I wouldn't frame them as aggressors. Stop building straw men.
I don't remember corporate America ever asking me, do you want cheap goods at the cost of less well paying jobs for Americans. I just go to the store store and try to get the best value for my money...
I agree and my objection is not that you have benefitted from wealth inequality. My objection is that you (or people like you... and me) were being framed as victims because you are losing a privilege that two thirds of the world would (and often do) die for. I don't think you were framing yourself as such, but you were being framed as such.
Earlier in the thread DD touched on Critical Race Theory focussing debate through an assumed victim mentality. I can think of few starker examples of an undeserved victim mentality than western consumers using rising prices (or falling wages) to claim they are hard done by.
We are privileged. That applies to everyone in this thread. It applies to programmers, factory workers, fish biologists and farm workers. We benefit from massive wealth inequality between us and the developing world. Should we enjoy that privilege? Hell yes. But to frame ourselves as the victims because we're not getting as much of that privilege as we'd like in this is ludicrous.
Last edited by FunkyDexter; Jul 12th, 2021 at 03:39 AM.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill
Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd
-
Jul 12th, 2021, 05:54 AM
#57
Re: Critical Race Theory
I think a key point is that people living in relative desperation are being taken advantage of as low cost labor. That harms them and the workers who have had their jobs moved away.
It was never about making life easier through cheaper stuff for consumers within the more advanced economies, it was about increasing profit at a cost to others. Didn't lose your job but sit back and enjoy the fruits in the form of cheap goods? There's a word for that: collaborator.
The knife-twist is that American working class families bear the burden of funding a military that makes globalization viable. That is now ending along with the bribes paid to regions like western Europe to not fall into chaos as they did cyclically forever left on their own historically. Another low blow is crapping on the U.S. as "an aggressor" while they themselves joyfully reap the fruits of that "aggression."
Better invest in some boglands now. Once Europe is back to heating and cooking over peat and dung you'll want a share of that market.
-
Jul 12th, 2021, 09:20 AM
#58
Re: Critical Race Theory
Originally Posted by dilettante
I think a key point is that people living in relative desperation are being taken advantage of as low cost labor. That harms them and the workers who have had their jobs moved away.
I don't think they'd agree with you.
China was exhibit A for that 'people living in relative desperation are being taken advantage of as low cost labor', but from everything I've heard, they were opting into the situation. The simple fact remained that they ended up making so much more money that they did it anyways, despite the difficult working conditions and social costs imposed. It's not just that it's easy to find people who were supportive, it was pretty clear due to the fact that they were voting STRONGLY with their feet, by pouring into cities to get those jobs, despite all the hurdles that the party imposed on them. Now, though, China raised their standard of living sufficiently that they aren't quite as low cost labor as before, and other countries are becoming competitive.
Yeah, they get exploited. Yeah, we benefit. Yeah, there are sub-groups within China who don't appear to be given a choice. However, the Han Chinese jumped on the opportunity by the millions. You can find examples of suicides, exploitation, and nasty working conditions, but you can find the same in the US. The bottom line is that they poured into those jobs, because they were clearly better than the alternatives they had.
It was never about making life easier through cheaper stuff for consumers within the more advanced economies, it was about increasing profit at a cost to others. Didn't lose your job but sit back and enjoy the fruits in the form of cheap goods? There's a word for that: collaborator.
Yep. And there's another word for that: EVERYBODY!
We do that all the time. We make choices as to what is best for us, at the moment. The choices we make have wiped out millions of jobs around the world. The people who have lost out may be bitter about it. Some certainly are. Others just move on to the next thing. We are all complicit in this, though. Whenever you have a choice of what you buy, and opt for A over B, then somebody wins and somebody loses. Blaming other people is just convenient. Blame yourself, instead.
My usual boring signature: Nothing
-
Jul 12th, 2021, 10:19 AM
#59
Re: Critical Race Theory
I think a conversation I recently had with two friends of mine about privilege feeds in rather well. He's white, she's black and they have two mixed race children so that conversation was in the context of race but I think something he said is still applicable here:-
"Privilege is rarely actively taken, mostly it's passively received. If you're lucky enough to receive privilege you don't have a duty to refuse it but you do have a responsibility to acknowledge it."
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill
Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd
-
Jul 12th, 2021, 12:47 PM
#60
Re: Critical Race Theory
Oh well, just consider me senile and turn away.
-
Jul 12th, 2021, 01:09 PM
#61
Re: Critical Race Theory
I think a key point is that people living in relative desperation are being taken advantage of as low cost labor. That harms them and the workers who have had their jobs moved away.
I took this as, the people in the US that are living in relative desperation and being taking advantage of as low cost labor. If that's what he meant, then I think they would agree with him.
Also, who is claiming that consumers are the victims, I haven't gotten that impression from Dil's posts. My impression is (I really don't do impressions) he was talking about the jobs market.
It's not just that it's easy to find people who were supportive, it was pretty clear due to the fact that they were voting STRONGLY with their feet, by pouring into cities to get those jobs, despite all the hurdles that the party imposed on them.
Yeah, they get exploited. Yeah, we benefit. Yeah, there are sub-groups within China who don't appear to be given a choice. However, the Han Chinese jumped on the opportunity by the millions. You can find examples of suicides, exploitation, and nasty working conditions, but you can find the same in the US. The bottom line is that they poured into those jobs, because they were clearly better than the alternatives they had
Thanks for saying this, I agree but haven't been able to put it to words.
-
Jul 14th, 2021, 02:54 AM
#62
Re: Critical Race Theory
who is claiming that consumers are the victims
Dil in post 46:-
I think both workers and consumers are the victims.
The crux of Dil's argument is that we are faced with a choice of off-shoring our production to developing nations which will lead to cheap prices but depressed wages in the West, or on-shoring it which will lead to increased wages but increased prices in the West. I think that's overly simplistic but broadly correct. Where I object is the framing of Western consumers and workers as the victims of those choices, they're not. That mantle belongs to the workers and consumers in the developing world.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill
Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd
-
Jul 14th, 2021, 03:28 AM
#63
Re: Critical Race Theory
So the black communities that were gutted when their jobs were exported offshore to cheaper labor markets to produce more and cheaper goods and higher corporate profits should... what? Just shut up and enjoy those Walmart savings?
Careful, your crocodile tears and privilege are showing.
-
Jul 14th, 2021, 09:42 AM
#64
Re: Critical Race Theory
How were the corporate profits raised? If the prices remained the same, while the labor got cheaper, then profits would certainly rise. If prices were racing towards the bottom as retailers were cutting each others throats to win consumers with the cheapest price, then profits may have declined. People can go to the store, see what is there, then go online and look for the cheapest price. If that's what they are doing, and we know that a bunch of people are, then cheaper labor is a means to cut prices, not as a means to increase profit.
Of course, that doesn't apply to every sector, but it applies to most manufacturing sectors, and those are the ones that are susceptible to offshoring. I don't think it applies to cars, for example, but those are somewhat insulated from offshoring, at least as far as the US is concerned.
My usual boring signature: Nothing
-
Jul 14th, 2021, 01:22 PM
#65
Re: Critical Race Theory
Even if your profit margin stays the same, if your able to sell at a lower price and your sales volume goes up then wouldn't the corporate profits go up?
As for the American auto makers, they got crushed in the 80's and 90's not because of price but because of Quality. The life expectancy of a vehicle has increased dramatically.
As for victims, who isn't one? Victim of what is the question. The people in charge exploiting workers seems to be in the human DNA, I can't think of when it hasn't been happening. Humans are capable of tremendous humanity and inhumanity. Deep thoughts by Wes4dbt. lol
I'm a victim of the crappy customer service we have grown to believe is acceptable. I've got a new clothes dryer from Costco sitting in my garage that's defective, should have been picked up 2 months ago. It takes 30min to 1hr to get customer service on the phone. They can't do anything but lie to you and say someone will contact me within 1-3 day to schedule a pickup. Anyone interested in buying a new clothes dryer that makes lovely rattling noise as it spins.
Last edited by wes4dbt; Jul 14th, 2021 at 04:07 PM.
-
Jul 16th, 2021, 02:42 AM
#66
Re: Critical Race Theory
your ... privilege are showing
Fine by me. I've never tried to deny my privilege and have openly acknowledged it. I don't think that was the killer mic drop you wanted it to be.
I assure you my criticism of your framing the West as victims was entirely sincere.
So the black communities that were gutted...
Did you really just try and reframe your anti-globalisation argument in terms of protecting (presumably Western world) black communities? That might have had some credibility if you'd tried to draw any logical causation there or even mentioned it as a motivator once before that post. Kinda came across as appropriating someone else's hardship in service of making a snarky remark on the internet but I'm sure you wouldn't have sunken so low as to do that.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill
Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd
-
Jul 16th, 2021, 06:01 AM
#67
Re: Critical Race Theory
Huh? See the other thread on that reading deficiency more specifically, or just crawl back through this thread and try again to see other specific mention of the impact of globalization on black communities.
Of course globalism has hurt industrialized urban areas far more than where the elite and its minions have profited as brokers and middlemen of the race to the bottom. Are you doubting that, or just feeling a twinge of hypocrisy?
-
Jul 16th, 2021, 09:16 AM
#68
Re: Critical Race Theory
On closer examination I see you did tie it's impact to race... once... as a throw away remark at the bottom of post 39. I don't feel that substantially undermines my position.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill
Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd
Posting Permissions
- You may not post new threads
- You may not post replies
- You may not post attachments
- You may not edit your posts
-
Forum Rules
|
Click Here to Expand Forum to Full Width
|