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Thread: Critical Race Theory

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    Critical Race Theory

    Critical Race Theory, also known as CRT, is the latest republican boogie man.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_race_theory

    It has been around for a while but the republicans have embraced it as a movement destroying academia and the military. Yesterday Representative Gaetz, of transporting underage girls across state lines fame, got a real smackdown during a budget meeting:

    https://www.thenewcivilrightsmovemen...itary-history/

    The far right news outlets are pushing how CRT is making white children cry and the military go soft. And anyone who criticizes these attacks are part of the cancel culture. That is another far right boogie man. FOX news spent a lot of air time reporting how the radical left canceled Dr. Seuss. Actually it was his family that pulled some of his books.

    It is really worth looking at the link to see the smackdown. It is very articulate.

    I guess the good think about republicans obsessing on CRT is they have stopped demanding Biden fire Dr. Fauci for all his "lies" and "flip flopping".
    Last edited by TysonLPrice; Jun 24th, 2021 at 05:30 AM.
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    Re: Critical Race Theory

    Here in Australia, our most visible right-wing nutjob - Pauline Hanson - has had a motion passed in our senate to ask the government not to allow CRT in schools. It's a stunt, of course, because the government are not the ones who set the school curriculum and no one is going to teach CRT to young children anyway. CRT is not what the right-wing claim it is but then, is anything ever?

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    Re: Critical Race Theory

    I don't watch Fox News, nor am I a Republican, but I still think that critical race theory is garbage.

    My understanding of it is that critical race theory stems from critical legal theory and, to some extend, Frankfurt school's critical theory.

    Also from what I understand is that the goal of critical race theory is to radically change the way that we think about race (and to some sexual preferences). One example is that it is no longer noble to be "color blind" because that concept taught that not making judgements based on immutable characteristics was at best ignorant and at worst racist, instead one should see a person through the lens of a victim hierarchy (which can sometimes change based on context). Another example is that it is no longer noble to not be a racist, instead one must be "anti-racist" which is loosely defined as ostracizing people who range from flat out racist up to people who refuse to participate in "anti-racism".

    At the end of the day, my take on critical race theory is that it is essentially Marxism that substitutes economic class with race. In other words, instead of the proletariat versus the bourgeoisie it is those at the highest level in the "victim hierarchy" versus those at the lowest.
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    Re: Critical Race Theory

    CRT has also been around since the 80s. It was an obscure academic discussion for decades, and would remain so if it hadn't been brought to prominence by this conservative move. I'm certainly on the left, and I had never heard of it until a group of legislators pushed to ban it in Idaho schools.

    I can agree with DDay's end of the day idea in more ways than one: Like Marxism, it could remain some debatable theory only discussed in stuffy academic circles without any impact on the world...right up until somebody did something with the idea. People took Marxism as gospel, whereupon it turned out to be an unstable partial concept whereby any group that really tried to implement it found that the system would spontaneously devolve into autocracy or dictatorship. After all, most people like the underlying idea of communism (everybody doing their share), it just doesn't work out in practice. Similarly, CRT is not a full-fledged concept. It could provide some guidance to thought, but not a guide to action.

    Fortunately for conservatives, it provides a pretty effective opponent. They've been losing opponents one after another. For a time, it could just be race, then that became taboo. Then it could be communism, but that fell apart with the fall of the USSR. They then grabbed onto homosexuality, but they have been steamrolled on that one and can hear the fat lady warming up. They need an opponent they can fight and beat. In the case of CRT, they found an opponent that can't fight back all that well because there is nobody behind it. The problem they are running into is that they decided to attack a cloud, and are finding it hard to land any meaningful punches.

    It'll be pretty sad if they lose a fight against a toothless non-opponent.
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    Super Moderator dday9's Avatar
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    Re: Critical Race Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    They need an opponent they can fight and beat. In the case of CRT, they found an opponent that can't fight back all that well because there is nobody behind it. The problem they are running into is that they decided to attack a cloud, and are finding it hard to land any meaningful punches.
    The problem is that politics today lives in the twitter-verse where everyone on the right is Tyson's summation of Fox News Republicans and everyone on the left are anti-racists with black boxes for their profile pictures.

    If there was any real world interaction both sides would see that there is much nuance.
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    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Critical Race Theory

    Yeah. I'm not sure it hasn't been that way for a very long time (which means pre-Twitter, since the phrase was 'sound bite' before Twitter came along), but it's certainly that way now. Some studies have also shown that the US is becoming more polarized in that there is less overlap between right and left. The middle is pulling apart. It's not a good thing for the country, but it a good thing for partisan leaders and some issue politics.
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    Re: Critical Race Theory

    I'm not so sure I buy into the polarization narrative.

    Considering the last two Presidential elections fell basically 50-50, assuming you accept the rigging as honest and let that go, that seems to argue against polarization. Clearly both teams are having no problem winning voters to their respective sides.

    Polarization should mean that floaters (often styled by the media as "independents" but more accurately described as "low information") wouldn't flip-flop as easily as they do.

    That doesn't prove anything, but to me it suggests there may be far less polarization than those at the extremes might want to believe.

    If true, that would leave plenty of room for a real "third way" Party, is the system wasn't so rigged against such a thing at State and Federal levels. There are lots of benefits granted in law to the 2 big Parties even where they aren't enumerated by name.

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    Re: Critical Race Theory

    Wow, I don't think I've ever been called "low information" before. Kind of gives me hope, all I need to do is read a little more and I'll have all the right answers.

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    Re: Critical Race Theory

    The ones showing the greater polarization weren't on the extremes, they were at the Economist. I can't site the study, though, as it was about a year back. It may not have been the Economist, directly, but a study they reported on.
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    Re: Critical Race Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    Wow, I don't think I've ever been called "low information" before. Kind of gives me hope, all I need to do is read a little more and I'll have all the right answers.
    I have.

    I have also been blamed for getting Trump elected in 2016 and Biden elected in 2020 when I voted for neither, even though I live in Louisiana where the spread wasnít covered by the Libertarian Party.
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    Re: Critical Race Theory

    I have also been blamed for getting Trump elected in 2016 and Biden elected in 2020 when I voted for neither, even though I live in Louisiana where the spread wasnít covered by the Libertarian Party.
    Well, everyone knows Libertarians are trouble makers and the cause of all our political problems. Wouldn't be a surprised if the GOP passes a law banning them from voting. I mean, if you can pass a law so you can't give someone standing in line to vote a drink of water, it shouldn't be a problem to start out right banning certain political groups. Politics are crazy. lol

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    Re: Critical Race Theory

    I've refrained from posting in this thread because I don't really feel I know what critical race theory is. It's not something we really talk about in the UK so I guess it's probably more of a US thing. I do have a few thoughts from googling it and reading this thread though.

    One example is that it is no longer noble to be "color blind"...
    I think the point is that colour blindness should be the goal but simply failing to acknowledge colour will not achieve that goal when inequality already exists. We need to address that inequality before colour blindness is viable. If we fail to do that then colour blindness is really just an excuse to not confront inequality. I think I get the argument about a victim hierarchy but I feel that accusations of a victim mentality are only really valid when the target isn't actually a victim. (aside: I really dislike the term victim, here, it's too loaded and comes across as sneering and enfeebling but it's the term being used so I've gone with it. It shouldn't be necessary to identify someone as a victim in order to acknowledge disadvantage)

    it is no longer noble to not be a racist, instead one must be "anti-racist"
    On this I'm with you - nobody has the right to demand that you support their fight. They have the right to ask you to and they certainly have the right to confront you if you fight against them but they do not have the right to demand action from you. I think people suffering disadvantage do have the right to demand action from their government but that's different to demanding it from individuals. And, yeah, you can largely blame the twitterverse for that.

    I'm afraid I don't get the comparison to Marxism at all. I can see that both can encourage "social wars" but that's a side effect both have, it's not the substance of what either is.

    I have also been blamed for getting Trump elected in 2016 and Biden elected in 2020
    You're clearly a man of influence

    I think I agree with Tyson that the current furore is simply the right creating a boogeyman to fire up the base. From a quick google, it's been being taught since the 80s and I don't get the impression that it's teaching is significantly increasing at the moment. So why the outrage now?
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    Re: Critical Race Theory

    What conservative media did was try to give general racialism a catch phrase. On one hand it gives people a moniker to point to when instances of racialism occur but on the other hand people can legitimately point out that the legal theory called critical race theory is not being taught in schools outside of law school.
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    Re: Critical Race Theory

    FOX news, and I use the term news lightly, has really gone off the rails on this. It is obvious they are making this an election issue. They are going on and on how the radical liberal democrats are attacking out children by promoting CRT

    The next two are the democrats defunding the police and crime is a crisis across the nation. Oops...forgot the border crisis. Republicans must be scared out of their minds.
    Last edited by TysonLPrice; Jul 7th, 2021 at 12:25 PM.
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    Re: Critical Race Theory

    No, I think they just realize that Trump's 75% of the popular vote that overcame election rigging in 2016 was not enough in 2020.

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    Re: Critical Race Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    No, I think they just realize that Trump's 75% of the popular vote that overcame election rigging in 2016 was not enough in 2020.
    You could be a Fox broadcaster saying things like that...

    Clintonís final tally came in at 65,844,610, compared to Donald Trumpís 62,979,636, with a difference of 2,864,974. The total number of votes for other candidates was 7,804,213. I can tell by your serious coding threads you are a bright guy. What percentage of the popular vote did he win based on real numbers.
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    Re: Critical Race Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    You could be a Fox broadcaster saying things like that...

    Clintonís final tally came in at 65,844,610, compared to Donald Trumpís 62,979,636, with a difference of 2,864,974. The total number of votes for other candidates was 7,804,213. I can tell by your serious coding threads you are a bright guy. What percentage of the popular vote did he win based on real numbers.
    I don't know where dilettante's delusion comes from - seems to think that to be a true leftie you have to hate the centre left as much as the right do - but when it comes to Donald Trump and what percentage of the vote he did achieve, I think the issue is that those who love him are just unable to comprehend how hated he is. This might be at least part of dilettante's problem as well but what they don't seem to realise is that, as many people as went to his rallies, there were more who genuinely despised him. Were I an American and voting in that last election, I would have voted against Trump and thus, implicitly, for Biden. I would have voted for Hillary against Trump. I've said numerous times - several of them directly too dilettante - that I think that Biden was a poor candidate and certainly not who I would have voted for in a Democratic primary but, once he was the nominee and up against Trump, he would have had my vote.

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    Re: Critical Race Theory

    Hey, it's ChitChat.

    If you can make bizarre libelous statements, I can make your heads explode.

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    Re: Critical Race Theory

    Trump's policies were actually left of center.

    You do know that "left" means "labor" and not "identity politics" don't you?

    You seem to have the "faux left" confused with the left.

    It is no accident that so many GOP bigshots slunk up on stage with Biden for his Convention. Mitt Romney and Rick "Flint Water" Snyder just to name two.

    Think about it. Are your politics "left" or actually pretty far right?

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    Re: Critical Race Theory

    Q told me that Donald J. Trump actually received 82% in 2020, but that a pizza parlor used telepathic mind control to send mass signals to key electoral secretary of state officials to change the votes manually by last minute. But don't worry, the true and rightful president will take over once again. #trusttheplan #notinfoilhere
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    Re: Critical Race Theory

    LOL!

    I still can't see why they get their underwear wound so tightly. Trump is gone and I can't imagine him returning.

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    Re: Critical Race Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    LOL!

    I still can't see why they get their underwear wound so tightly. Trump is gone and I can't imagine him returning.
    Trump isn't gone, not even close. The "Big Lie" is alive and well. I think people get their underwear wound tight because Trumpism is a threat to our democracy. His presidency has exposed the a major divide in our country and shown how to exploit it. Now the republican norm is headed towards, we will ignore democracy so we can save democracy(our version of it). I don't like blaming one party or the other, they both put the party before the people. But all these voting regulation changes are coming from one party.

    But your right, this is the right forum for making bizarre statements. lol

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    Re: Critical Race Theory

    I personally read Dil's post as pretty tongue in cheek. It's hard to tell on the interwebs but the tone seemed pretty sarcastic to me.

    Trump's policies were actually left of center.
    I don't think Trump had any policies at all. Just whatever madcap brain fart struck him at 2:30 in the morning during one of his twitter tirades.

    Trump isn't gone, not even close
    I agree with everything you just said. I actually think there's more of a threat to your democracy right now than there was on January the 5th - mainly because January the 6th got normalised within a month.
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    Re: Critical Race Theory

    I agree with everything you just said.
    Oh, no, no, no. Don't start that crap. I'm on to you. Next you'll be asking to borrow money.

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    Re: Critical Race Theory

    Or worse, move in as a rent-free "roommate" for "just a couple of weeks until my money comes in."

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    Re: Critical Race Theory

    There are a variety of pushes to remove democracy from the election process. Whether or not they succeed remains to be seen, but since they are being pushed by one of our two major parties, which control numerous states, it's interesting times. I doubt Trump will run again, but I don't feel very certain of that. I think he prefers where he's at now, pulling the strings. It has now become a litmus test for the Republican party that you must not deny the big lie. It's a weird time. Normally, this would split the party. It still might, but not in half.
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    Re: Critical Race Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Hey, it's ChitChat.

    If you can make bizarre libelous statements, I can make your heads explode.
    Shaking your head in incredulous disbelief is different from your head exploding...
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    Re: Critical Race Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Trump's policies were actually left of center.

    You do know that "left" means "labor" and not "identity politics" don't you?

    You seem to have the "faux left" confused with the left.

    It is no accident that so many GOP bigshots slunk up on stage with Biden for his Convention. Mitt Romney and Rick "Flint Water" Snyder just to name two.

    Think about it. Are your politics "left" or actually pretty far right?
    You know what? I had never actually considered thinking about it. Thank goodness we, in the rest of the world, have an American available to us to explain what left and right really mean in politics because America is well known for being very balanced when it comes to politics. In all the years that I have voted for the Australian Labour Party, I thought I was voting for midwifes. Silly me.

    Given that you're so smart and so in the mood for explaining things that the rest of us have never thought about, maybe you could explain to me exactly what it is about my political position that is far right? I know you wouldn't just make a suggestion like that without actually knowing anything about my political position because, well, we all know exactly what sort of person would do a thing like that. Please do reply because it would be shame for me to miss an opportunity to benefit from your obvious wisdom.

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    Re: Critical Race Theory

    I actually agree with dil's assessment of Trump being left of center. He was a big spending nationalist reminiscent of 1950s style democrats.

    That's one of my problems with America's current state of politics. Aside from some key issues, namely abortion, guns rights, and immigration (even this is flip floppy) you really can't tell the two sides apart. They're both spend happy, war hungry, and willing to get into bed with large corporations.

    Really the only real difference in my opinion is messaging. Democrats changed their messaging from targeting blue collar union workers to targeting the Obama coalition made up of diverse groups. Where as Republicans changed their messaging from targeting Christian conservatives to now targeting the blue collar union workers.
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    Re: Critical Race Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by dday9 View Post
    I actually agree with dil's assessment of Trump being left of center. He was a big spending nationalist reminiscent of 1950s style democrats.

    That's one of my problems with America's current state of politics. Aside from some key issues, namely abortion, guns rights, and immigration (even this is flip floppy) you really can't tell the two sides apart. They're both spend happy, war hungry, and willing to get into bed with large corporations.

    Really the only real difference in my opinion is messaging. Democrats changed their messaging from targeting blue collar union workers to targeting the Obama coalition made up of diverse groups. Where as Republicans changed their messaging from targeting Christian conservatives to now targeting the blue collar union workers.
    Here is the basic difference. If a democrat is standing on a pier and sees a drowning man he will throw him a huge length of rope but not hold onto the end. If a republican is standing on a pier and sees a drowning man he will throw him a length of rope that is too short and tell him to swim the rest of the way.
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    Re: Critical Race Theory

    Yeah, good old Bill "Gulf War/NAFTA/Telecomm Act/Glass-Steagall Killing" Clinton, eh? What a friend of the working family he was.

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    Re: Critical Race Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by dday9 View Post
    I actually agree with dil's assessment of Trump being left of center. He was a big spending nationalist reminiscent of 1950s style democrats.
    The 1950s Democrats were considerably different from modern Democrats. The change came when the Civil Rights Act was passed, at which time the south switched from Democrat to Republican. Prior to that, they had been Democrat largely because Lincoln was Republican.

    It's one of the oddities of having a two party system: The parties have to include a whole bunch of disparate people who are in the tent for very different reasons. The Republican party HAS shifted to try to bring in blue-collar white voters, but they count on evangelicals the way thee Democrats count on the black vote (in other words, 'take it for granted'). The Republicans always counted on big business, too, which means they aren't going to be the party of labor without getting rid of some other positions. Meanwhile, Democrats count on labor, but they clearly can't. On the other hand, they are making inroads with big business, at the same time.

    The two parties have switched sides on various issues at times, but they have to coordinate that to some extent. If they both are strongly together on some issue, then neither one pays much attention to it. So, if one moves on some part of the traditional base of the other, then the other has to either switch sides, or push out the intruder. Both have happened in history.
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    Re: Critical Race Theory

    I don't give Trump himself much credit for his many positive policies. For one he failed to implement very much of most of them, facing deep state headwinds as well as opposition from both parties. But he was really just reacting to the tide of history.

    Biden faces the same tide, but being more of a party creature drags his feet harder.

    But globalism is already ending, and that's what Trump saw and Biden is currently gritting his teeth against but failing to resist very effectively.

    This takes the form not only of fewer new wars of aggression on the behalf of globalized interests but also less policing the skies and high seas globally. That was also about globalized interests even though it began as a way to contain parts of the world notorious for starting big wars. The latter is why we ended up in a Cold War for so long. The Communists did not want to be contained, so they became the big threat.

    This is why I can't get too outraged about the party animals right now. We've seen two administrations that have had to knuckle under to the will of the people. One welcoming it (at least to the public) and the other in deep denial but largely powerless to oppose it.

    China sees its collapse coming, most of the EU is already shaking in its boots about heating and cooking over peat and dung again. Africa looks like a scary mess. France aligned with North Africa, India, and the US aligned with Mexico seem to be in the best shape as the world regains its borders again and transnational corporations lose their subsidy.

    In the US the coasts appear to be in the worst shape once their military and trade welfare dries up. New Orleans will probably benefit from the ongoing importance of the Mississippi and Ohio rivers to domestic trade though.

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    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Critical Race Theory

    Well, you've made your bet. What's riding on it?
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    Re: Critical Race Theory

    Dil - I'm curious what your definition of globalism is. Are you referring to global trade, a single "world wide" culture, borderless (or ambiguous bordered) nations, a combination of those, or something else all together?
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    Re: Critical Race Theory

    Here is the basic difference. If a democrat is standing on a pier and sees a drowning man he will throw him a huge length of rope but not hold onto the end. If a republican is standing on a pier and sees a drowning man he will throw him a length of rope that is too short and tell him to swim the rest of the way.
    That's funny!!! Plus a pretty good analogy.

    Sadly we elect these people but what can you do. They all know the right buzz words to say for each demographic and it's impossible to tell who is sincere (if any) and who is just playing the part. At the national level it's insanely expensive to run a campaign so of coarse special interests are going to be involved.

    It does feel different now for some reason, it feels like the boundaries of acceptable behavior is being stretched. That boundary is already set way to far out for politicians.

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    Re: Critical Race Theory

    Globalism is predominantly cynically economic. Trade is part of this because it allows big transnationals to move labor and resource extraction far away from consumption. They can buy low and sell high, and everyone aside from them and their intermediaries suffers. It's the modern outgrowth of the plantation system.

    But yes, it is also a force against localism and prefers to limit cultural diversity. After all, the only cultures they need are one of docile low-wage workers and another of effete voracious consumers easily influenced by marketing.

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    Last edited by dilettante; Jul 9th, 2021 at 01:00 PM.

  38. #38
    Super Moderator dday9's Avatar
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    Re: Critical Race Theory

    How is your definition of globalism as it relates to trade any different from what the Luddite's thought about technology? Seriously, just substitute "globalism" with "technology":
    Technology is predominantly cynically economic. Trade is part of this because it allows big transnationals to move labor and resource extraction far away from consumption.
    I would suggest, based on my reading of Austrian economics, to simply eliminate the trade restrictions. One example would be that if we eliminated tariffs that not only would it eliminate artificial price floors but it would give the consumer more purchasing power.

    But my understanding of this nationalism approach (which is the vibe that I get from you) is that we need to impose trade restrictions on other countries in effort to boost domestic companies. Wouldn't this have the side effect of not only subsidizing corporations that would otherwise be unable to operate in a free market (which in turn ties up capital in one business at the expense of another that may prove to be a better investment) but also disincentivize foreign corporations from opening factories or shops?
    Last edited by dday9; Jul 9th, 2021 at 01:50 PM.
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  39. #39
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    Re: Critical Race Theory

    The globalization in place today is firmly on the backs of working people. It not only undermines compensation and displaces jobs to low labor-cost regions, it taxes them for the military which policies the shipping lanes and keeps those cheap labor markets stable and pliable.

    The beneficiaries are the parasites: holders of capital, influence peddlers, military-industrial complex, investment banking, mega agriculture, lawyers, trade brokers, global shipping companies, insurance industries (subsidized protection rackets), and the like. The losers: everyone else.

    Progress? Take automation. Do the workers get rewarded as they become more productive... or do they get laid off in droves?

    Fighting words like "nationalist" and "trade Luddite" roll so easily off the tongues of functionaries of the oppressor.

    If you think China, the EU, and on and on do not have import tariffs you either aren't paying attention or you are trying to muddy the waters. The U.S. has had incredibly few and low tariffs ever since Reagan came to power and rolled back tariffs except where he had vested interests (Harley Motorcycle, semiconductors). Bush and Clinton maintained the neoliberal policy of protecting selected tariffs while rolling back nearly all others.

    And yet we get calls for a higher minimum wage as more of the work force is driven to take on high school part time jobs like retail and food service (the "Servants' Economy"). This can only be derived from retail price increases, another burden on the back of the working class and also an opportunity to increase the skim at the wholesale and distribution level as well. One knife, two edges.


    And to bring this back on topic: nothing has hurt ethnic minority families, particularly black urban families, than these neoliberal policies that transformed thriving working class communities into impoverished ghettos while self-styled "liberals" paid them nothing but lip service.

  40. #40
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Critical Race Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    The globalization in place today is firmly on the backs of working people.
    Not ALL working people. It's not on my back, and I'm a working person. It's not on the back of those working for service providers. It's not on the back of loads of others. There's only a certain set of people that you are talking about, and those people tend to be production line workers.
    The beneficiaries are the parasites: holders of capital, influence peddlers, military-industrial complex, investment banking, mega agriculture, lawyers, trade brokers, global shipping companies, insurance industries (subsidized protection rackets), and the like. The losers: everyone else.
    The other beneficiaries are those who make things that get sold overseas, along with those that benefit from a growing economy (the service providers). There's also a very large category, which I fall into, that neither directly benefits nor are directly harmed.
    Progress? Take automation. Do the workers get rewarded as they become more productive... or do they get laid off in droves?
    Both. Go cry on the shoulders of the millions of blacksmiths and farriers we employ to keep our transportation shod...oh wait, society moved to the automobile, and entire job categories were wiped away without a care. It has happened over and over through history, especially in the last two centuries as technological change has sped up. Heck, look at all the people in this very forum who are crying over a programming language that went away a couple decades back. Sure, people get laid off in droves. We do that to them. It isn't some sinister forces pulling the strings, it's US!! Jobs go away when we change our interests. It's only been fairly recently that we have talked about (and occasionally even put in place) job retraining to cushion the blow to the people whose livelihoods we wiped out by the choices we have made.

    People are all for changes that make their lives better, as long as others don't make choices that wipe out their particular job.
    People want to pay less for the loads of crap we all buy.

    You want to bring all the manufacturing back, as those appear to be the jobs that you don't consider 'Servant's Sector' work, and you want them to be paid so well that they feel great about it...and who pays the price? If it costs considerably more to make that widget, are you suggesting the government force the widget makers to sell them at a loss, or do you expect the price of the widgets to rise? If the price rises, will people be happier?
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