Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 83

Thread: Racial tensions solved

  1. #1

    Thread Starter
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Modesto, Ca.
    Posts
    4,720

    Racial tensions solved

    Our federal government solution - create a federal holiday in honor of the end of slavery.

    Nothing that addresses any of the issues. It seems the people in power have no desire for change.

    That being said, I don't know what should be done. But this feels like the, give them a piece of candy and maybe they'll be quiet, approach.

    Some states/major cities are trying to make changes but that leaves the bulk of the country basically unchanged.

  2. #2
    Administrator Steve R Jones's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Largo, FL.
    Posts
    1,345

    Re: Racial tensions solved

    We, the country, still have a LONG way to go. Every little bit helps.
    "I have been wanting to grow my own food but I can not find any bacon seeds."

  3. #3

    Thread Starter
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Modesto, Ca.
    Posts
    4,720

    Re: Racial tensions solved

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve R Jones View Post
    We, the country, still have a LONG way to go. Every little bit helps.
    I'd say the world. I don't think the US is the only one with this problem. I'd say it was the least we could do. lol

  4. #4
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    22,543

    Re: Racial tensions solved

    The CW's Superman & Lois starts by giving wifey billing and then casts most scenes in deep sepia tones to ensure all actors look sort of mixed-race mestizo or something. All we need now is a big orbital filter to dim the Sun and we can all sing Kumbaya.

    Kidding aside, I think the new pandering is mainly just to get themselves another paid day off. If it serves to grind a few gears of division then so much the better. Keeps the little people from rising up.

  5. #5

    Thread Starter
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Modesto, Ca.
    Posts
    4,720

    Re: Racial tensions solved

    Really, I don't have any strong feeling about the new holiday, one way or the other. The thing that struck me was it seems our government is incapable of passing any meaningful legislation. Most of their energy is focused on their turf wars.
    Last edited by wes4dbt; Jun 18th, 2021 at 09:35 PM.

  6. #6
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
    Posts
    7,709

    Re: Racial tensions solved

    I think the holiday is a good thing and it acknowledges your history but it's not a solution and shouldn't be seen as such. A solution requires far more work but there's no need to make the perfect the enemy of the good.

    I don't think the US is the only one with this problem.
    I'd say that a combination your history, lack of gun control and the militarisation of your police force causes racism in America to manifest in uniquely lethal ways but I do agree with you that America isn't unique in being racist.

    If I look at UK stats on, for example, stop and search, drug arrest etc. it's pretty obvious that we're in the same ball park as you as far as levels of racism and we need to be prepared to acknowledge and own that. But our racism usually doesn't end in death, yours often does. This should lead us to two conclusions about the US 1. Racism is a problem that still needs to be addressed and 2. the lethality of your society is a problem that also needs to be addressed. Addressing wither one without the other will not lead to a desirable solution.

    I also think there's a difference in the tone of racism between the UK and US that's largely tied to history. People of colour in the UK mostly (italics to highlight that this is not a universal truth) represent economic migrants or their descendants, it was a willing process. In the US people of colour are mostly the descendants of slaves. That means the coloured community has a lot more to be bitter about over there and the white community tends to be much more defensive, making it much harder to reach across the racial divide in either direction.

    That said, I don't want to let the UK off the hook here. The reason economic migrancy into the UK has been so prevalent is a legacy of our colonial history and how it impoverished the third world and we get every bit as defensive about a statue of Rhodes as you do about a statue of Lee. As nations we are both extremely unwilling to confront our actual history.

    While I'm on statues I want to make a point about the toppling of the Colston statue and the objections people raise that we're expunging history. Prior to last year, as a Bristolian I could:-
    Walk up Colston road (It's right near Whiteladies road and Black Boys lane so... um... yeah)
    Admire Colston's statue
    Go to concerts in Colston Hall
    Send my daughter to Colston's school for girls
    Drink in the Colston Arms
    Eat in a restaurant named after Colston
    Eat a Colston Cake... on Colston Day
    Bask in the glory of the stained glass window dedicated to Colston in Bristol cathedral

    And not once in that entire experience would I encounter the word "slave".

    Anyone who thinks that represents history does not understand the meaning of the word "propaganda". The fact that we were brought up in that propaganda and have been so indoctrinated by it that we mistake it for history doesn't change what it is.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Jun 20th, 2021 at 09:01 AM.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  7. #7
    King of sapila
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    6,004

    Re: Racial tensions solved

    Greeks are not racists. We can't be so as we base part of our economy on tourism so we accept everyone.
    Having said that, with the invasion of immigrants the last few years (again Government idiots fault) we tent to be real skeptic as stealing and murder cases are rocketed sky high the last few years.
    Also we just enslaved everyone in an ancient Greek , even ourselves, so I'm not really sure what a monument would be made for
    .

  8. #8

    Thread Starter
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Modesto, Ca.
    Posts
    4,720

    Re: Racial tensions solved

    Anyone who thinks that represents history does not understand the meaning of the word "propaganda". The fact that we were brought up in that propaganda and have been so indoctrinated by it that we mistake it for history doesn't change what it is.
    Well some of those things sound like capitalism. lol Just trying to make money.

    One of the most well known names in the US is Carnegie. His charitable works are vast. But before the charity he was an industrialist who made his millions by breaking the backs of thousands and thousands in his steel mills. The meager wages paid keep people impoverished. But that part of his life isn't mentioned. Does the good out weigh the bad? I wish we could have the good without the bad.

  9. #9
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    22,543

    Re: Racial tensions solved

    A recent strategy of the dividers is to (racistly) lump all Asians into one group and then make bizarre claims that they are under attack due to "race." They are usually careful to achieve maximum damage by saying that most of the attacks are by the majority of Americans (duh). This triggers self-defensive reactions (in turn met by responses of the "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?" stripe).

    This is so transparent I can't believe either side of the artificial divide believes any of it or tolerates such a blatant attempt at manipulation again.

    Where does this come from? The media are clearly complicit but I suspect most of that is sheer avarice. I'm beginning to think this is wargamed out and then instigated by the faux academia infesting the university system. Maybe we need a "Defund the Universities" movement?

  10. #10
    Hyperactive Member coothead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    chertsey, a small town 25 miles south west of london, england.
    Posts
    284

    Re: Racial tensions solved


    Racism is just a subset of the real problem: human stupidity.

    Unfortunately there is no cure.

    As Albert Einstein, reportedly, pointed out...

    “Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity;
    and I'm not sure about the universe.”


    ~ the original bald headed old fart ~

  11. #11
    King of sapila
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    6,004

    Re: Racial tensions solved

    Racism is a well organized business.
    .

  12. #12
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
    Posts
    7,709

    Re: Racial tensions solved

    Well some of those things sound like capitalism.
    Capitalism has certainly had it's ugly side (still does) and I'm not going to apologise for those who exploit those in poverty, but there's no way you can draw an equivalence between that and slavery?

    In the case of Colston, the good most definitely does not outweigh the bad. He was a slaver and such good as he did was done using the proceeds of slavery. It's estimated he sold 84,000 Africans into slavery. Including children. Approximately 19,00 died en route, mostly of starvation and dehydration. Donating large sums of money to Bristol doesn't come close to levelling that balance.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Jun 22nd, 2021 at 03:52 AM.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  13. #13

    Thread Starter
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Modesto, Ca.
    Posts
    4,720

    Re: Racial tensions solved

    but there's no way you can draw an equivalence between that and slavery?
    Of course there's a way, there is never just one view. But that wasn't the point of my post.

    I was commenting on how easily people are admired because of their wealth, the willingness of people to overlook/ignore how the money was made. Even Pablo Escobar was admired by large sections of Columbia because he spread some money around to help the poor. I'm not trying to make a right or wrong statement, just an observation.

  14. #14
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
    Posts
    7,709

    Re: Racial tensions solved

    I was commenting on how easily people are admired because of their wealth, the willingness of people to overlook/ignore how the money was made
    Oh, I see. Yeah, I'd agree with that. I think wealth worship is probably worse in the US than the UK but we've got it too.

    I was thinking about your initial question last night: how do we solve racism? I think most of the solutions that get proposed are attempts to address the inequality that results from racism rather than racism itself. They help but they don't represent solutions.

    If you want to solve racism you need to directly confront racism itself. I think there are probably two branches of this:-
    1. We need an honest acknowledgement that racism exists and is massively detrimental to peoples lives. That sounds obvious and easy but the pushback you get is substantial. Try pointing out that (my favoured quoter) Winston Churchill was a racist and watch what happens in the daily mail, even though a cursory examination of some of the things he said makes it undeniable. I'm sure you have very similar characters over there. We need to learn to objectively criticise our heroes, our history and our culture. This does not mean shaming and denying the good parts - but it does mean honestly confronting the bad parts.
    2. We need to be exposed to each other. It's no accident that racism is far more prevalent in rural and sub-urban areas where people of colour tend not to live than it is in inner cities which tend to be much more diverse. White flight and ghettoisation have been real and make us far more likely to "other" each other.

    I don't know how you achieve those two branches from a legislative perspective but that's where the focus should be.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  15. #15
    King of sapila
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    6,004

    Re: Racial tensions solved

    Not that racism is not only about the color. It's about someone with Government connections getting a job that you are more qualified.
    Get a job because you are a man not a woman, tip a white bugger not a black one, not getting into a restaurant because you are not dress with a tuxedo, getting a cat instead of a dog
    Also note that there is racism against religions and in that, Christianity has been hunted all over the globe, especially from Muslim fanatics and of course there is black against white racism.
    Slavery was not racism, it was a business that later went to racism. I'm talking about US slavery.
    So if racism is part of human stupidity, just go to the mirror and think about your actions, turns out that almost everyone is stupid, more or less.

    37 degrees today. I'm burning, go to go to the sea, NOW!!!!
    .

  16. #16
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
    Posts
    7,709

    Re: Racial tensions solved

    Those things aren't racism as such but they are forms of bigotry so arguably just as bad. I think we tend to focus on racism because it's the most prevalent.

    Slavery was not racism
    Agreed but it's a huge influencer (I think the single greatest influencer) on the nature of racism in the US today.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  17. #17
    Administrator Steve R Jones's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Largo, FL.
    Posts
    1,345

    Re: Racial tensions solved

    I think racism is a two way street. People of color need to stop walking around like they THINK they are second class citizens that have a chip on their shoulders.

    "Some" white people owned slaves but far from all white people did.

  18. #18
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
    Posts
    7,709

    Re: Racial tensions solved

    like they THINK they are second class citizens
    That would carry more weight if they weren't actually second class citizens. E.g. the median income for Blacks is only about 60% that of Whites and for Hispanics it's roughly 75%. I do agree that a victim mentality is unlikely to serve coloured communities but it's justified and understandable.

    "Some" white people owned slaves but far from all white people did
    Agreed and the effect of slavery on lower class whites in America isn't often explored. The history around it is really quite interesting. But the issue isn't so much whether white people owned slaves but rather that black people were owned as slaves. There isn't much of a call to condemn whites as a race - the call is to acknowledge the injustice that was done to blacks as a race.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Jun 22nd, 2021 at 10:44 AM.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  19. #19

    Thread Starter
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Modesto, Ca.
    Posts
    4,720

    Re: Racial tensions solved

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    That would carry more weight if they weren't actually second class citizens. E.g. the median income for Blacks is only about 60% that of Whites and for Hispanics it's roughly 75%. I do agree that a victim mentality is unlikely to serve coloured communities but it's justified and understandable.

    Agreed and the effect of slavery on lower class whites in America isn't often explored. The history around it is really quite interesting. But the issue isn't so much whether white people owned slaves but rather that black people were owned as slaves. There isn't much of a call to condemn whites as a race - the call is to acknowledge the injustice that was done to blacks as a race.
    I was with you in the previous posts but you lost me on this one. lol

    Having less income doesn't make you a second class citizen. Plus there are ways to improve and many have chose to take advantage of the resources available. But many haven't and I'm not smart enough to figure out why. Plus you could ask ten sociologist and get ten different answers. I don't think their victim mentality comes from slavery, it comes from feeling a victim of the current society.

    I feel very much the call is to condemn whites. Who doesn't acknowledge the injustice that was done. About as many as think the earth is flat.
    Last edited by wes4dbt; Jun 22nd, 2021 at 03:55 PM.

  20. #20

    Thread Starter
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Modesto, Ca.
    Posts
    4,720

    Re: Racial tensions solved

    I got curious, plus I was bored, so I looked up the poverty levels by race. https://www.census.gov/library/stori...s-in-2019.html

    I was surprised at the data. I thought the poverty rate would be much higher. So that was good news. I found it amusing that Asians have the highest average income, there have been several anti Asian law enacted throughout the years. I wonder what is driving those numbers. I wasn't curious or bored enough to research any further.

    The sad part was my income is less than all of them. lol

    But I have not debt and I'm a household of one, so it feels like my income is more than enough.

  21. #21
    King of sapila
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    6,004

    Re: Racial tensions solved

    Wes my friend, take comfort that almost everyone in Greece is in dept and poorer than you. And we are white.
    But I don't think that if you have "accustomed" to a lower income you are sad. OK you can make comparisons around you, if you are in US but if you in a country with mostly common population you can live with less.
    I've been poorer and happy, more wealthy and no happy and the opposite. Currently I'm on the higher stakes compared to Greece income but you never know what will happen the next day here, mostly does to the traitor dogs born our of an unborn horsecat politicians. On think I know in Greece is that if you are in a high rate political party you can safely "suck" the money of the other classes and get richer. You get rich but you get stigmatized as a ruffian or as we say in Greece (political)party dog.
    .

  22. #22

    Thread Starter
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Modesto, Ca.
    Posts
    4,720

    Re: Racial tensions solved

    Thanks for the support. I live very comfortably and have no money worries. My house is paid off, my kids are all raised. So my expenses are low.

    Yeah, money can't buy happiness they say but not having enough money for the essentials can make your life miserable. lol

  23. #23
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    22,543

    Re: Racial tensions solved

    Perhaps the high income levels for "Asians" lumped into one group is behind the recent pandering toward them. Big bucks means big political donations, so it may be natural for the politicians to start sucking up. Everyone else has wised up and closed their wallets.

    I know that in the UK they lump Indian and Pakistani folks into "Asians" but in the US we more typically don't. So I suppose in those statistics they are considered "White (Non-Hispanic)" or something?

    The White (Non-Hispanic) thing is a joke in itself. I know a lot of ethnic Latin-American people who find it pretty grating and "racist."

  24. #24
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
    Posts
    7,709

    Re: Racial tensions solved

    Having less income doesn't make you a second class citizen
    No but being treated as a second class leads to having a lower income.

    The victim blaming rhetoric that they choose to be disadvantaged is really insidious. It plays into the same old tropes of blacks and hispanics being stupid/lazy/criminal and otherwise lesser than whites that were and continue to be used to justify slavery, segregation, Jim Crow, over sentencing, over policing of areas where coloured communities live... It plays straight into the racism you started by saying you wanted to solve. I doubt that's what you meant, but it is the same rhetoric that you're flirting with.

    Who doesn't acknowledge the injustice that was done
    Fair enough, I'll rephrase: The injustices that were done and continue to be done.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Jun 24th, 2021 at 04:18 AM.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  25. #25
    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    107,172

    Re: Racial tensions solved

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    Who doesn't acknowledge the injustice that was done.
    I think that you're oversimplifying. Very few people deny that slavery actually occurred but plenty of people want to ignore the effects that it and other racist policies had and continue to have. There are plenty of people who will say yes, slavery happened and that was bad but lets not dwell on it and lets just treat everyone the same from here on and everything will be great. Those people completely ignore the fact that, as a result of slavery and those other policies, black people are starting out with a disadvantage so treating them equally from here on isn't really treating them equally at all. These are the same people who continually whine about "equality of outcome" over "equality of opportunity" and strawman their opponents position in doing so.

    When I talk about giving disadvantaged races a leg up I'm not talking about giving them extra help to get to the finish line but rather giving them extra help to get to the starting line, so they are actually on an equal footing with others and can then get to the finish line on their own or not. Those people complain about things like affirmative action because they concentrate on the individuals who are supposedly getting something for nothing but they ignore the bigger picture, in which the race that that person is a member of is getting the help that the white race got all those years ago such that, as a group, they can compete on an equal footing in the future.

  26. #26
    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    107,172

    Re: Racial tensions solved

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Perhaps the high income levels for "Asians" lumped into one group is behind the recent pandering toward them.
    Are you of the opinion that overt racism towards Asian people has not increased recently as a result of COVID? This is not the first time you've brought up Asian people being grouped together in this thread but I've heard plenty of reports of racist attacks on Asian people, blaming them for COVID, and a number of those people have not been Chinese. Not that it's OK to attack Chinese people anyway but attacking non-Chinese people because of COVID makes little sense, but then racist people are often quite stupid. Are you also of the opinion that the continual and repeated linking of COVID with China by some has not had the effect of increasing the degree of hostility towards Chinese people and thus fuelled these racist attacks?

  27. #27
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
    Posts
    7,709

    Re: Racial tensions solved

    I'm pretty much on exactly the same page as JM's post 25 but I'd go further. It's locked into our thinking.

    Slavery, segregation, Jim Crow etc. all required justification by those who perpetrated them and that justification was supplied by a continual portrayal of black people as sub-human. That's why I talked about their portrayal as stupid, lazy, brutal and inherently criminal. Not only does that portrayal still infect our thinking today, we're still doing it.

    You see a similar effect with Hispanics who are rarely portrayed in media as anything other than a gangster or a prostitute. Right wing anti-immigration types hype them up as both lazy and a threat to the ability of locals to find work - which is a pretty contradictory pairing when you stop to think about it. They're "a swarm" attacking the American border.

    The effect of this is that it becomes ingrained in our thinking. We're less likely to give a coloured person a job, or rent them a flat. Side-bar, I've been guilty of it this week. I rent out rooms in a house and, two days ago, a guy contacted me and introduced himself as a "Nigerian Entrepreneur". I'm pretty sure you can all guess exactly what my first thoughts were - no way I'm renting to this guy, he's probably a scammer. Turns out he is indeed a Nigerian Entrepreneur and a bloody good one. He's over here on an innovator visa, sponsored by the UK government to develop software for the NHS to help with female mental health issues associated with there menstrual cycle. The guy's a fricking legend! But even I, who actually grew up in Nigeria surrounded by Nigerians who universally were not scammers, had that initial uncontrolled prejudice because it's been drilled in to me.

    Now extend that out to think about the effects those prejudices (which we ALL have) has when applied to employment prospects, policing, the ability to get loans, how your doctor treats you, how the store detective treats you... It's massive. That's why one of the solutions I suggested to racism was exposure to each other. Nothing challenges you prejudice about Nigerian Entrepreneurs quite like meeting a Nigerian Entrepreneur.

    Interestingly, prior to Covid I don't think Far Eastern people (is there an acceptable collective noun I can use here? it feels a little fraught) have had the same portrayal. Where Blacks and Hispanics have typically been portrayed in a very negative fashion, Chinese people have typically been portrayed as bookish, maths nerds with a tendency toward the reclusive. I suspect that may be a large factor in why they are achieving better outcomes (this and they usually come from the upper and middle classes before they migrate which is not true of Blacks and Hispanics)




    So I guess I'm saying that we should all go out and expose ourselves to as many people as possible.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Jun 24th, 2021 at 11:15 AM.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  28. #28

    Thread Starter
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Modesto, Ca.
    Posts
    4,720

    Re: Racial tensions solved

    The victim blaming rhetoric that they choose to be disadvantaged is really insidious. It plays into the same old tropes of blacks and hispanics being stupid/lazy/criminal and otherwise lesser than whites that were and continue to be used to justify slavery, segregation, Jim Crow, over sentencing, over policing of areas where coloured communities live... It plays straight into the racism you started by saying you wanted to solve. I doubt that's what you meant, but it is the same rhetoric that you're flirting with.
    This is one of the main issues I have with the racism subject. The hyperbolic rhetoric. I certainly never suggested or inferred in any way that slavery, segregation or Jim Crow was justified. Nor did I say blacks or hispanic people are stupid/lazy/criminal. To many people seem overly eager to jump up on a stump, pound their chest and cry out their moral outrage. All you have to do is "flirt with" saying something that offends them.

    When I talk about giving disadvantaged races a leg up I'm not talking about giving them extra help to get to the finish line but rather giving them extra help to get to the starting line, so they are actually on an equal footing with others and can then get to the finish line on their own or not.
    I've always had the same point of view. I thought affirmative action was an excellent policy. I think it was successful for a while. I just have a problem with blaming 100% of the income gap on racism. Yes it exists but it's only one of many factors.
    Last edited by wes4dbt; Jun 24th, 2021 at 07:38 PM.

  29. #29
    King of sapila
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    6,004

    Re: Racial tensions solved

    In Greece we have pushed this completely around.
    If a foreigner rapes a woman, he was trying to rip of her skirt.
    If a Greek rapes a woman, almost all the political parties will condemn this on the parliament, left parties will have demonstrations and the media will play this as the top news for a month.
    Now I'm still on giving the life in prison on both cases but on the first case, probably 3 years with parole and the the second case probably 10 years in prison.
    .

  30. #30
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    22,543

    Re: Racial tensions solved

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    Are you of the opinion that overt racism towards Asian people has not increased recently as a result of COVID?
    This is exactly the sort of "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?" retort you get from those with an interest in dividing people for political gain.

    A classic personal attack that there is no answer to because it is meant to shut down discussion. Smolletting.

  31. #31

  32. #32

    Thread Starter
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Modesto, Ca.
    Posts
    4,720

    Re: Racial tensions solved

    That is interesting. But if you read the "Update" article it basically says you can't read much into it. lol

    I enjoyed checking it out anyway.

  33. #33
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    22,543

    Re: Racial tensions solved

    Yes, you can find supporting opinions and statistics for almost any position you might imagine.

    These can be framed as situational and conditional and weasel-worded when the message cuts across the grain of "right thinking." Many rapidly cave in to pressure and recant, often claiming difficult to confirm "error" had led them astray.

    Look at all of the Canadian oppression of native peoples over the last 40 years, grand-scale pollution and the taking of lands forcing relocation in particular. But it doesn't fit a political agenda in the U.S. so those tragedies pass silently.

  34. #34

    Thread Starter
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Modesto, Ca.
    Posts
    4,720

    Re: Racial tensions solved

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Yes, you can find supporting opinions and statistics for almost any position you might imagine.

    These can be framed as situational and conditional and weasel-worded when the message cuts across the grain of "right thinking." Many rapidly cave in to pressure and recant, often claiming difficult to confirm "error" had led them astray.

    Look at all of the Canadian oppression of native peoples over the last 40 years, grand-scale pollution and the taking of lands forcing relocation in particular. But it doesn't fit a political agenda in the U.S. so those tragedies pass silently.
    I really don't understand what point your trying make, if your agreeing or disagreeing or if your even still talking about the link you posted in #31. I wasn't making a statement at all, except I enjoyed checking it out.

  35. #35
    PowerPoster
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    22,543

    Re: Racial tensions solved

    I was just agreeing that the article at that link doesn't really mean anything.

    You can read it and what you take away can reflect your own biases. Some will focus on he original content, others will focus on the revision and discard it.

    In the end you are right where you began.

    That's how most of this stuff goes. It isn't easy to change somebody's mind, especially if they've wrapped their identity around a set of opinions to establish their world view.

  36. #36
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
    Posts
    7,709

    Re: Racial tensions solved

    I certainly never suggested or inferred in any way that slavery, segregation or Jim Crow was justified
    I agree, you didn't. But you did say this "there are ways to improve and many have chose to take advantage of the resources available. But many haven't and I'm not smart enough to figure out why". You explicitly put the agency on them without even considering that those choices might not have been available to them. That's the same trope that was used to justify all of the above throughout history.

    And lets break it down. If the agency around those outcomes is in their hands then you must believe that either they choose to be disadvantaged, which seems like a pretty stupid proposition, or that there is something intrinsic about people of colour that means they're incapable of escaping that disadvantage, which seems a pretty prejudiced proposition.

    To be clear, I'm absolutely not calling you racist - I don't believe you are. But I do think, like all of us, you have prejudices that inform the decisions you make. Further, I don't think that, in itself, is anything to be ashamed of. I can't say it enough that we ALL have those prejudices and I include myself in that. And I include people of colour in that too, it's not a white thing, it's a human thing. Those prejudices are only a problem if we allow them to go unexamined - that's where the shame should lie.

    Hence the second part of the solution I proposed - that we need to have an honest discussion about racism and that includes acknowledging the prejudices we all carry, that people of colour are overwhelmingly the targets of those prejudices (even when they themselves hold them) and how those prejudices inform the social structures we have built. This conversation does not need to, and should not be, targeted toward shaming white people, it should be targeted toward acknowledging and rectifying the disadvantage experienced by people of colour.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Jun 25th, 2021 at 03:56 AM.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  37. #37
    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    107,172

    Re: Racial tensions solved

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    To be clear, I'm absolutely not calling you racist - I don't believe you are. But I do think, like all of us, you have prejudices that inform the decisions you make.
    I have to disagree with the first part. Prejudice based on race is, by definition, racism. The second part I agree with though, which is why I say that we're all racist and the difference is the degree and how explicit it is. I think that one reason that so many are unwilling to acknowledge racism is that they think "I don't hate black people, therefore I'm not racist". Because they are so fixated on racism only being the product of hate, the results of racism based on laziness and ignorance get swept under the carpet. Even much of the racism that actually is based on hate gets swept under the carpet too, because these same people don't want to acknowledge that people who seem like them on the surface really do hate black people because it makes them fear that they might be that way under the surface without knowing. These people are fixated on "racists are bad people and I'm not a bad person therefore I can't be racist so if anyone talks about racism then I'm not listening because it doesn't involve me". These are often the "personal responsibility" types but they're not prepared to take personal responsibility for making the world better for everyone.

  38. #38
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
    Posts
    7,709

    Re: Racial tensions solved

    Prejudice based on race is, by definition, racism
    Yeah, my use of the terms might be clumsy but I agree with your principle. Basically, I separate prejudice from bigotry on the basis that I take prejudice to be an auto-response where as bigotry represents a considered position. When I use the term racism I tend to associate it with bigotry but I think you're association of it with prejudice is every bit as valid, more valid if we're talking about systemic racism. I think it's also worth considering that there are different kinds of racism ranging from casual prejudices, through your inappropriate mate who makes jokes and wonders why people are so over sensitive, all the way out to your white supremacists. All of these are racism but they're definitely not the same.

    In your terminology I guess I'd say, we're all a bit racist and I don't believe Wes is a bigot.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  39. #39
    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    107,172

    Re: Racial tensions solved

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    Basically, I separate prejudice from bigotry on the basis that I take prejudice to be an auto-response where as bigotry represents a considered position.
    That's fair enough, but I tend to think of that as implicit and explicit racism. If you knowingly act against the interests of someone because of their race then I would consider that explicit racism, but if you treat people of different races differently without realising it, as we pretty much all do, then I'd consider that implicit. What we really need is for everyone to try to explicitly avoid their implicit racism manifesting but far too many people won't even admit that such a thing exists. These are the same people who think that white privilege doesn't exist because they had to pay their own college tuition while ignoring the fact that they can drive around with an air freshener on their rear-view mirror without being shot by the police.

  40. #40
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    An obscure body in the SK system. The inhabitants call it Earth
    Posts
    7,709

    Re: Racial tensions solved

    What we really need is for everyone to try to explicitly avoid their implicit racism manifesting
    Nicely put.

    These are the same people who think that white privilege doesn't exist
    White privilege certainly exists but I'm going to come right out and say I HATE that term and really wish we could change it. I have two main problems with it:-
    1. It identifies privilege as the problem that should be fixed. Privilege is not the problem. Speaking as someone who's got it, privilege is frickin' great. What we should be identifying as the problem is disadvantage. Focussing on privilege risks creating a mindset focussed on tearing people down rather than raising people up.
    2. Even if it's not intended to be, it's too readily received as an attack by white people - and not unsurprisingly.

    I'm definitely not going to deny that white privilege exists but I do think we'd be much better served if we could find a way of flipping the term on its head and talking about non-white lack of privilege - damned if I can come up with a snappy two word term that would work, though.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  



Click Here to Expand Forum to Full Width