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Thread: Chauvin murder trial verdict / consequences

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    Chauvin murder trial verdict / consequences

    First off, I will note that, if the distance from where I live to where there was rioting, looting, and arson last summer in response to the George Floyd video was put into golf terms, I'm about a long par 4 away. There are probably millions of people who can say the same, since that reality played out in many major cities across the nation, but that's my starting point.

    I can't imagine the jury comes back unanimous not guilty, thankfully. I'm cautiously optimistic that he will be found guilty. But to me, the most likely outcome is a hung jury, with something like 10 or 11 voting guilty, and one or two not guilty "holdouts".

    Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure that a hung jury will essentially be as bad as a "not guilty" verdict as far as quelling or exacerbating current societal tensions. And then, we get to go through it all again if and when there is a second trial.

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    Re: Chauvin murder trial verdict / consequences

    Unfortunately I've have turned numb to the whole thing. I'd like to see him held responsible but the whole rioting aspect turns me off, so I've ignored the whole thing.

    What is the actual charge? Does the jury have a choice of murder, voluntary manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter?

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    Re: Chauvin murder trial verdict / consequences

    I believe three different counts:

    2nd degree murder
    3rd degree murder
    Manslaughter (unsure of degree, etc.)

    The 3rd degree murder charge was added late and was a bone of contention legally. It is the same charge that the Somali police officer who shot and killed the woman from Australia a couple years ago was convicted of, which was also in the Minneapolis area.

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    Re: Chauvin murder trial verdict / consequences

    No idea what will happen.

    Perhaps he'll be convicted on something that keeps him in jail until the appeal that sets him free later, once the weather is brutal enough to dampen insurrection. It isn't just Minnesota though, anarchists are prepping all over the country.

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    Re: Chauvin murder trial verdict / consequences

    He MUST be convicted..... He is guilty as heck.

    A lot of people don't get that rioting makes a bad situation worse....

    Which came first - the chicken or the egg?

    Don't these guys looks a like? Can anyone name the other one?
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    Re: Chauvin murder trial verdict / consequences

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    Unfortunately I've have turned numb to the whole thing. I'd like to see him held responsible but the whole rioting aspect turns me off, so I've ignored the whole thing.

    What is the actual charge? Does the jury have a choice of murder, voluntary manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter?
    One interesting point is that I heard Fox News (I think) defending those who stormed the Capitol by saying that, while they don't condone violence, we should understand that those people turned to violence because they felt unheard and unappreciated, etc, etc. When it comes to BLM protests, we tend not to hear any of that talk of mitigation from right-wing sources like Fox News. If Chauvin is not found guilty and there is violence again, you can bet there will, yet again, not be any understanding from the right about why people might feel driven to violence by the complete disregard shown by a significant chunk of society towards another significant chunk.

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    Re: Chauvin murder trial verdict / consequences

    Taking a lesson from the history books there will be massive protests if the general consensus is he "got off". That same lesson says there will be violence also. What we can't get from it is to what degree both will occur. My sense of the tone of things is the majority of people do not want violent protests. But there are enough people that do that I'm sure we will see it nation wide.
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    Re: Chauvin murder trial verdict / consequences

    "anarchists are prepping all over the country"

    I think now that Trump is out of office and off Twitter it isn't as much as a concern as it was, say on, January 6th 2021.
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    Re: Chauvin murder trial verdict / consequences

    I know who is in the second picture. I can't say that I know who is in the FIRST picture, but based on the context, I think I can guess pretty well.
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    Re: Chauvin murder trial verdict / consequences

    He MUST be convicted..... He is guilty as heck.

    A lot of people don't get that rioting makes a bad situation worse....
    Yeah, he's guilty but of what? Murder? Do you think his intention was to kill him? Or was he just indifferent to his use of excessive force. There is a big difference between the two when it come to jail time. I watch a lot of Law and Order. lol

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    Re: Chauvin murder trial verdict / consequences

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    Yeah, he's guilty but of what? Murder? Do you think his intention was to kill him? Or was he just indifferent to his use of excessive force. There is a big difference between the two when it come to jail time. I watch a lot of Law and Order. lol
    I don't think he intentionally killed him and I'm not sure it was he was just indifferent to his use of excessive force. I do think Floyd's color and the neighborhood was a factor and that would not have happened if he was white. Parents that are not black don't need to have the same "talk" as black parents have with their kids. The police are subject to the same prejudices as general society and this is most definitely a very racist country in many, many ways in my opinion.
    Last edited by TysonLPrice; Apr 20th, 2021 at 12:57 PM.
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    Re: Chauvin murder trial verdict / consequences

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    I don't think he intentionally killed him and I'm not sure it was he was just indifferent to his use of excessive force. I do think Floyd's color and the neighborhood was a factor and that would not have happened if he was white. Parents that are not black don't need to have the same "talk" as black parents have with their kids. The police are subject to the same prejudices as general society and this is most definitely a very racist country in many, many ways in my opinion.
    Well that sounds like you would find him not guilty. Being a racist isn't illegal. The fact people are racist isn't new. It's world wide and always has been. Has racism declined over the centuries, I think so. Do we have a long way to go, definitely.

    I know there are laws against violating someones civil rights but it doesn't sound like that is what he is charged with. Like I said, I've ignored the trial, not because I'm not interested but mainly because of the way the media is exploiting the situation. I wouldn't want to be on that jury.

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    Re: Chauvin murder trial verdict / consequences

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    Yeah, he's guilty but of what? Murder? Do you think his intention was to kill him? Or was he just indifferent to his use of excessive force. There is a big difference between the two when it come to jail time. I watch a lot of Law and Order. lol
    On the other hand, many charges that are easier to prove can carry a similar long term sentence.

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    Re: Chauvin murder trial verdict / consequences

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve R Jones View Post
    On the other hand, many charges that are easier to prove can carry a similar long term sentence.
    Like what???

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    Re: Chauvin murder trial verdict / consequences

    There might be another tack to take that could bring people together, which in turn might see real change down the road.

    Law enforcement excesses are hardly anything new, and one way to remind people could be to appeal to more of them through their own culture and narratives. Example showing a couple brief clips:



    Neoclassical western flick, currently free with Prime at Amazon as well as elsewhere.

    Want justice? How about an approach that helps everyone see that their own ox is gored too?

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    Re: Chauvin murder trial verdict / consequences

    oh... wife just informed me that the jury is back... they're just waiting to get everyone back to court... guess we'll know soon.

    Came back sooner than I thought it would. I figured it would be Wednesday before there was a verdict.


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    Re: Chauvin murder trial verdict / consequences

    It will be very disappointing if the verdict is guilty and the protestors riot anyway just because.

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    Re: Chauvin murder trial verdict / consequences

    Thank goodness.

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    Re: Chauvin murder trial verdict / consequences

    Now I'm a bit confused. I thought that the three charges were essentially giving the jury three different options. They found him guilty on all three. How is that possible. It they found him guilty of second degree murder, I would have thought the other two were irrelevant, but they found him guilty on all three, as if there were three crimes. Guess there's something I'm not understanding....and a bunch of coders is probably not the place to ask about it.
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    Re: Chauvin murder trial verdict / consequences

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Now I'm a bit confused. I thought that the three charges were essentially giving the jury three different options. They found him guilty on all three. How is that possible. It they found him guilty of second degree murder, I would have thought the other two were irrelevant, but they found him guilty on all three, as if there were three crimes. Guess there's something I'm not understanding....and a bunch of coders is probably not the place to ask about it.
    That was my first thought too.

    Here's my guess. It could be relevant if some appeal is upheld. They could be fall back charges. Just a guess.

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    Re: Chauvin murder trial verdict / consequences

    It's the same as when someone commits one crime, but is charged with multiple counts... it's all in the technical readings and specifications... that's sometimes they refer to it as "specification 1" "specification 2" it's all in how the codes are written. Kind of a weird thing, also kind of fascinating at the same time.

    Fall back charges are another animal. Those are noted as "Lesser, included charges" ... So, when a DA adds "lesser, included" charges, that gives the jury the opportunity to find the defendant not guilty of the main charge, but possibly still guilty of the lesser included charge. That wasn't an option in this case.

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    Re: Chauvin murder trial verdict / consequences

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    Yeah, he's guilty but of what? Murder? Do you think his intention was to kill him? Or was he just indifferent to his use of excessive force. There is a big difference between the two when it come to jail time. I watch a lot of Law and Order. lol
    Various degrees of murder are defined differently in different places. Murder does necessarily require intent to kill. I actually looked this up a while back in relation to a different incident, because I wasn't sure myself.

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    Re: Chauvin murder trial verdict / consequences

    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post
    It's the same as when someone commits one crime, but is charged with multiple counts... it's all in the technical readings and specifications... that's sometimes they refer to it as "specification 1" "specification 2" it's all in how the codes are written. Kind of a weird thing, also kind of fascinating at the same time.

    Fall back charges are another animal. Those are noted as "Lesser, included charges" ... So, when a DA adds "lesser, included" charges, that gives the jury the opportunity to find the defendant not guilty of the main charge, but possibly still guilty of the lesser included charge. That wasn't an option in this case.

    -tg
    Now it's as clear as mud. lol

    I not doubting what you say is correct. But I just don't see the difference. If they would have found him not guilty of 2nd degree murder but guilty of manslaughter, how is that not a lesser but included charge? Your right it is kind of weird.

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    Re: Chauvin murder trial verdict / consequences

    He was found guilty and rightly so because...
    Do you think his intention was to kill him?
    Yes! It wasn't premeditated but don't kid yourself it was an accident. Once Chauvin had Floyd on the ground he decided to send a message about exactly who held the power and was willing to kill a man to send that message. You do not choke a man out for 9 minutes by accident.

    And nobody should take this verdict as an indicator that everything's going to be OK now. Daunte Wright and Adam Toledo have both been murdered by police in the last fortnight. Toledo was 13, unarmed and holding his hands in the air. If anyone thinks either of these was accidental, I invite you to watch the footage which is readily available on line. This is still happening.
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    Re: Chauvin murder trial verdict / consequences

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    Like what???
    Father killed his three year old step daughter because she was a little bit challenged. Everything the dad told Police was a lie and most could be proven it was a lie...

    Injury to a child by omission means that the charged person allegedly owed a duty to the child to protect the child from injury or at least to get the child medical help if the child was injured. It does not mean that the charged person actually inflicted the injury on the child...

    That charge took "beyond the shadow of a doubt" OFF the table...which was part of a MURDER Charge. Father received a life sentence for the Injury charge which is the same max charge as murder. (EDIT: I'm probably a bit off on this.)

    I joined the Search Party effort the first day she went missing... Dad said he put her in the field behind the house ALIVE at 3am to punish her from not drinking her milk.. When he went back to get her she was gone.

    Local PD found video showing his car leaving and coming back early in the morning.... It took a couple of weeks before they found her body.


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    Re: Chauvin murder trial verdict / consequences

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve R Jones View Post
    Don't these guys looks a like? Can anyone name the other one?
    Derek Chauvin and Timothy McVeigh (1995 Oklahoma City bombing)
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    Re: Chauvin murder trial verdict / consequences

    Now I'm a bit confused. I thought that the three charges were essentially giving the jury three different options. They found him guilty on all three. How is that possible.
    Multiple charges and being convicted or not on those charges is completely normal, you obviously dont follow legal cases or TV enough

    If for instance you assault and rape someone those are 2 separate charges and you can be charged and convicted for both and have sentences for both given to you back to back.

    Now it's as clear as mud. lol
    Murder doesn't necessarily require intent to kill
    Yes the degree of Murder eg. 1st, 2nd etc have require different bars to be reached, 2nd and 3rd degree for instance in the US do not require intent 1st probably does. Each level has different wording and levels of proof that need to be met.

    I can't imagine the jury comes back unanimous not guilty, thankfully. I'm cautiously optimistic that he will be found guilty. But to me, the most likely outcome is a hung jury, with something like 10 or 11 voting guilty, and one or two not guilty "holdouts".
    The verdict had to be unanimous otherwise he would have been acquitted, fortunately the Jury saw what everyone else who has seen that video saw and delivered the correct verdict.

    I cant imagine anyone who has seen that video can watch and not come to the same conclusion that he was as guilty as hell !!
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    Re: Chauvin murder trial verdict / consequences

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    Well that sounds like you would find him not guilty. Being a racist isn't illegal. The fact people are racist isn't new. It's world wide and always has been. Has racism declined over the centuries, I think so. Do we have a long way to go, definitely.

    I know there are laws against violating someones civil rights but it doesn't sound like that is what he is charged with. Like I said, I've ignored the trial, not because I'm not interested but mainly because of the way the media is exploiting the situation. I wouldn't want to be on that jury.
    If it sounds like I'd find him not guilty to you than I chose my words poorly. I was offering no opinion on guilt or innocence, just my observations. I wouldn't let media coverage decide for me if I should be interested or not, it is a pretty big social issue. I think twenty years ago, or maybe less, he would have walked. The original police statement was nothing like what happened.
    Last edited by TysonLPrice; Apr 21st, 2021 at 04:54 AM.
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    Re: Chauvin murder trial verdict / consequences

    Quote Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers View Post
    Yes the degree of Murder eg. 1st, 2nd etc have require different bars to be reached, 2nd and 3rd degree for instance in the US do not require intent 1st probably does. Each level has different wording and levels of proof that need to be met.
    I don't know if it's different over there than it is over here, but intent is the difference between murder and manslaughter here. Example... If i am driving my car, drop my phone, then become distracted as I try to pick it back up, and hit someone, killing them, I could be charged with manslaughter. If, on the other hand, I see me nemesis crossing the road, and I gun my engine, and speed towards him, and kill him with the car... that's murder. Now... The degrees of murder are based on the level of planning. This was a case of crime of opportunity, so it's a 2nd, which may or may not end up 3rd degree when it's all plead out. It wasn't planned, I saw an opportunity, I took it. Manslaughter isn't an included lesser charge.

    Ok, now let's look at a hypothetical case where it could be: Drunk driving. Someone gets loaded, gets in their car, and ends up driving through a crowd of people, and some how ends up making it all the way home. They're so drunk, they don't remember. Cops catch them. Now, they should have known that getting behind the wheel drunk could have lead to this... so they may charge them with murder... but the case is weak, so they toss in the lesser included charge of manslaughter to give the jury an escape route. That's usually when I've seen it used. When the prosecution has a decent case, but it may not quite have a strong enough case, so they toss in the lesser charges to allow the jury to say, "Hey, you didn't meet hte burden of this larger charge, but you did of this lesser one, and so yeah, we'll send the message."

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    Re: Chauvin murder trial verdict / consequences

    Quote Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers View Post
    The verdict had to be unanimous otherwise he would have been acquitted
    That's not how things work here in a criminal case. If the jury decides:

    Unanimous not guilty - Acquitted
    Any mixture of guilty and not guilty - Hung Jury, can be prosecuted again on same charges
    Unanimous guilty - Convicted

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    Re: Chauvin murder trial verdict / consequences

    If for instance you assault and rape someone those are 2 separate charges and you can be charged and convicted for both and have sentences for both given to you back to back.
    I think the confusion is coming from the fact that you'd expect a e.g. murder to charge to supersede a manslaughter charge rather than compound it as e.g. a rape and a murder might. I think (though I'm not sure) that to be guilty of murder you must, by definition, have met the bar to be guilty of manslaughter because murder is essentially manslaughter with some extra conditions - it's kind of manslaughter plus. Under those circumstances it does feel weird that someone can be found guilty of both, especially if that meant that they received the penalties for both rather than simply the penalty for the greater crime. I have no idea how that works though.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Apr 21st, 2021 at 09:13 AM.
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    Re: Chauvin murder trial verdict / consequences

    Yeah, nothing has been cleared up, for me. It seems like the two murder and one manslaughter charges all stem from the single fact that George Floyd died. That seems to be one crime with three charges against it. Had Chauvin been charged with assault, or something like that, then I would see that as two separate crimes, but this seems to be one crime with three charges. I was trying to come up with an analogy based on theft, but couldn't quite. For example, if somebody breaks into your house and steals your TV, they could be charged with burglary, breaking and entering, trespass, theft, and petit theft....and perhaps one or two other kinds of theft, but I'm not sure about them, so I left them out. However, one could kind of argue that each of those charges was for separate parts of the total act. For example, the theft could be for taking the TV, while the petit theft could be for taking the power cord attached to the TV...or taking the remote. It would be nit-picking, but it's possible. In this case, it just seems like one crime: Murder, and just one of them.
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    Re: Chauvin murder trial verdict / consequences

    I can't do it right now, but give me some time, and I'll see if I can look it up tonight and post some results - true crime is a semi-hobby, so I see why there's multiple charges, but I haven't looked into the exact particulars in this case, so I can't/won't speak to it. Generally speaking though, there's multiple types of murder that can happen... and it comes down the to the means, which goes back to the specification. Apparently in this case, he checked all the right boxes under multiple specifications to have multiple charges brought about even thought it was a single act. I'll look tonight to see if I can find the exact charges and specifications that he was charged with and how it correlates to something that makes sense.

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    Re: Chauvin murder trial verdict / consequences

    I don't know if it's different over there than it is over here, but intent is the difference between murder and manslaughter here.
    Yes that is the same in the UK, I was going off what I had read specifically on the George Floyd case, it seems that maybe different states have different laws regarding this.

    Just looking it up In Minnesota the wording for 1st degree murder is

    intentionally killing a police officer, killing a person while also committing a sex offense with force or violence, or intentionally killing a person with premeditation
    2nd degree is - intentional/drive-by shooting and unintentional

    Intentional second degree murder is intentional murder without premeditation
    Second degree murder by drive-by shooting is exactly as it sounds so long as the drive-by shooting is what is defined by statute section 609.66, subdiv. 1(e).
    The statute for unintentional second degree murder lists two ways that this offense is committed: unintentional killing while committing or trying to commit certain felonies and certain acts in violation of an order for protection
    3rd degree murder has two types

    unintentional killing during a dangerous act with a depraved mental state.
    unintentional killing relating to certain drug offenses
    Last edited by NeedSomeAnswers; Apr 21st, 2021 at 10:30 AM.
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    Re: Chauvin murder trial verdict / consequences

    That's not how things work here in a criminal case. If the jury decides:

    Unanimous not guilty - Acquitted
    Any mixture of guilty and not guilty - Hung Jury, can be prosecuted again on same charges
    Unanimous guilty - Convicted
    Ah yes having re-read about it some of the articles were not clear, a hung Jury was also a possible verdict, thankfully that didn't come to pass.
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    Re: Chauvin murder trial verdict / consequences

    Yeah, nothing has been cleared up, for me. It seems like the two murder and one manslaughter charges all stem from the single fact that George Floyd died. That seems to be one crime with three charges against it
    With a crime like this my understanding is that the 3 charges where brought as they have different levels of proof and so it lets the Jury weigh up whether the case met any of the levels of proof required.

    If they had only brought a case for 2nd degree Murder for instance and the Jury decides that there is not enough proof of intent, if you dont also have a charge of 3rd degree murder they have to automatically acquit even though there may be enough proof for 3rd degree murder, so you bring both charges so both can be deliberated on by the Jury.

    Also my understanding is even though he has been convicted of all 3 he will only server the sentence for the most serious charge which carries a 40 year sentence. I dont know if that is state specific or not.
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  37. #37
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    Re: Chauvin murder trial verdict / consequences

    If they had only brought a case for 2nd degree Murder for instance and the Jury decides that there is not enough proof of intent, if you dont also have a charge of 3rd degree murder they have to automatically acquit even though there may be enough proof for 3rd degree murder, so you bring both charges so both can be deliberated on by the Jury.
    Yeah, I watch enough Law and Order to know that's why you include all three charges. My confusion is why aren't the 3rd degree and manslaughter charges not considered "lesser but included" charges.

    Also my understanding is even though he has been convicted of all 3 he will only server the sentence for the most serious charge which carries a 40 year sentence. I dont know if that is state specific or not.
    I don't believe the 40yrs is mandatory.

  38. #38
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    Re: Chauvin murder trial verdict / consequences

    How long will Derek Chauvin be in prison?

    A sentencing hearing has not been held yet, but Chauvin faces a recommended 150 months or 12 years in prison under sentencing guidelines for first-time offenders. But the prosecution is seeking a higher prison term due to "aggravating factors." So he may face up to 30 years in prison though the judge may sentence him to less.
    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ho...si7?li=BBorjTa

  39. #39
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    Re: Chauvin murder trial verdict / consequences

    On lunch, I had a chance to poke around...

    Here are some stories that give a decent breakdown of the three charges and how they relate to the case, and how, while related to a single incident, they are treated as separate acts, each of which the jury could find guilty/not guilty on.
    https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/...death-77169778
    https://www.newsweek.com/derek-chauv...-floyd-1579771
    https://www.ajc.com/news/nation-worl...O2WCE5ZBQYIZI/

    But... if you really want to boil it down... read the complaint in its original text:
    https://mncourts.gov/mncourtsgov/med...nt06032020.pdf

    Especially read the Statement of Probable Cause... it reveals more than just what the body cam video (which apparently has the BWC - Body Worn Camera - abbreviation) reveal about what went on that day. More than I originally knew.

    Count I: Second Degree Murder - Unintentional - While Committing A Felony
    ...caused the death of a human being, George Floyd,without intent to effect the death of any person, while committing or attempting to commit a felony offense other than criminal sexual conduct in the first or second degree with force or violence or a drive-by shooting, namely assault in the third degree.
    In short, this is the act of killing someone w/o intent while committing another felony crime. The drunk driver that hits someone and kills them. In this case, they've used third-degree assault as the felony (even though it's uncharged) as the basis for the overall charge. The claim is that by pushing Floyd to the ground and keeping him there constituted an assault on his person. (It's interesting what goes for assault - there's a case here in SC where someone simply pushed someone else and is now under arrest for assault - there's more to it than just that, but still) ... This is about the officer's overall actions and not his kneeling oddly enough. But that his actions directly contributed to the death of Floyd.

    Count II: Third Degree Murder- Perpetrating Eminently Dangerous Act and Evincing Depraved Mind
    ...caused the death of another, George Floyd, by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life.
    This is a separate and and different charge. This one is directly related to kneeling. As stated in the complaint, "Police are trained that this type of restraint with a subject in a prone position is inherently dangerous" and yet, he did it anyways, without regard for the safety of human life (ie, Floyd who is supposed to be in his custody). So he willfully and intentionally performed an act of restraint knowing full well the consequences.

    Count III: Second Degree Manslaughter - Culpable Negligence Creating Unreasonable Risk
    ...caused the death of another, George Floyd,by his culpable negligence, creating an unreasonable risk and consciously took the chances of causing death or great bodily harm to another,George Floyd.
    This is related to the above, but isn't included. This stems from the fact that at no time did he let up on Floyd. If anything, from what I read, he kept going, even when questioned by others, and maybe even pushed harder.



    ugh... I'd go further... but we're in UAT... need I say more?

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  40. #40

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    Re: Chauvin murder trial verdict / consequences

    The judge obviously plays neutral in a trial, but I can't imagine him not handing down a larger than 12.5 year sentence.

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