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Thread: Why is VB.Net/C#/XAML + VS2019 is better than VB6? Here's why.....

  1. #401
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    Re: Why is VB.Net/C#/XAML + VS2019 is better than VB6? Here's why.....

    Quote Originally Posted by SearchingDataOnly View Post
    In some streams (even streams with large drops) in China , there are often small fish called stone-fish, which grow in the crevices of rocks in the water.

    I've explored some underground rivers, where the fish grow in the cold river water and only grow 1-2 centimeters a year, but fishermen often catch dozens of kilograms of big fish in the river. The taste of these fish is amazing.
    ****e the fish.
    By the power invested in me, all the threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones - no arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign.

  2. #402

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    Re: Why is VB.Net/C#/XAML + VS2019 is better than VB6? Here's why.....

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    Well, actually it is a measurable metric and people do care. Just because you don't say "look at the size of my bloat", means that you care enough not to say it - as it is an embarrassment if stated out loud. Put it bluntly, bloat isn't one of .NET's strengths... just an undeniable characteristic.

    When someone comes up with an efficient language, size matters and it is something to be boasted about whilst the bloat of others is laughed at. Bloat is implicit in many Microsoft offerings and especially so in .NET. It's known and it is a given.

    Perhaps we don't go on about it any more because we've experienced it and heard it so often, as a result we just accepted it. But still, the .NET framework is known as bloatware.

    When I look at fat Yanks in the videos, fat policemen arresting fat idiots in supermarkets full of fat people, they have clearly all become used a different type of bloat. Just because you are used to it doesn't mean it is good in all circumstances. So, you have to accept it is a negative, say so and move on, don't cover it up by saying it's fine, we like it bloat.

    You can't just wave away a negative like that. .NET is massive, bloated if you will, in comparison. You can chalk that win up to the languages that are slimmer. VB6 in this case.
    This is a poor argument. .Net is a part of Windows. You don't avoid it by writing programs in VB6. Sorry, but this talk of bloat is just another fantasy peddled by .Net haters.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

  3. #403

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    Re: Why is VB.Net/C#/XAML + VS2019 is better than VB6? Here's why.....

    Oh yea, I also forgot to mention, .Net 5 has a self-contained deployment mode which has options to compile only what is used from the framework into a self contained executable and a handful of DLLs. These can be as small as 19 MB depending on the kind of application it is.
    Treeview with NodeAdded/NodesRemoved events | BlinkLabel control | Calculate Permutations | Object Enums | ComboBox with centered items | .Net Internals article(not mine) | Wizard Control | Understanding Multi-Threading | Simple file compression | Demon Arena

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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

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    Re: Why is VB.Net/C#/XAML + VS2019 is better than VB6? Here's why.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    Oh yea, I also forgot to mention, .Net 5 has a self-contained deployment mode which has options to compile only what is used from the framework into a self contained executable and a handful of DLLs. These can be as small as 19 MB depending on the kind of application it is.
    An that is how it should have been. Now it makes compact binaries which is a selling point and a positive, worth saying - which only goes to accentuate and highlight the previous negative being bloat.
    By the power invested in me, all the threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones - no arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign.

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    Re: Why is VB.Net/C#/XAML + VS2019 is better than VB6? Here's why.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    The thing is, all that is fine and well. But understand, some of us don't have time for all that. We are just going to use what's there. We don't have time to fight with a 20 year old development environment, rolling our own stuff just to save a few megabytes especially since those savings don't make a lick of difference to the bottom line. And the bottom line is the answer to a simple question....does the software work? If it works, no one cares what it was written in.

    For example, I wrote a piece of software in a couple days where customers in a store can quickly get the price of an item by scanning it on a tiny computer that was fixed in a wall near the isles. Do you think the client cared that it was written in VB.Net? Do you think he cared one bit that it used a 500 MB framework? No. He doesn't even know how it works. He just knows that it does exactly what he wanted it to do. If I had chosen to do this in VB6, all it would have accomplished is give me a harder time writing it. I wrote the UI in WPF which naturally provides a flexible layout system that scales seamlessly and preserves aspect ratios no matter what size the Form is. In VB6, I would have to write all that logic myself. I don't have time for that. I just want to get it done and over with. This "rolling your own" approach is not viable for those of us that want to be competitive.

    You're a back-end low level developer so of course you care about that stuff but most of us are front end guys. The people we write software for don't even know how the software works so we can use the tools that give us the best productivity. The size of the framework literally means nothing in my world. It's literally a non-issue. No one cares one bit about that.
    For image rotation, there are a lot of image processing programming. VB. Net encapsulation degree is higher, development is more convenient, function is more.
    In this respect, VB.NET wins.
    Some QR Code recognition before.There are many rich open source libraries for creating GIF drawings.

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    Re: Why is VB.Net/C#/XAML + VS2019 is better than VB6? Here's why.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    That's a point. I'm working on a project based on plugins. Since you can build anything into a plugin, I could add Excel to my project (thought about doing so as a demo), add something written in ASM, C, VB6, or anything else, to my project...and so on. I'm not sure whether I could use something written in R to my project, but that's okay with me.

    As long as you have a language that can be extended, it can be extended in whatever direction up to the capability of the hardware it runs on.
    Open Excel directly, pull out the handle area of the table part, and show it directly to my form program.So I have an excel control. Control through the com interface

    You can also open the Google browser ,Then turn the display page to the part. Setparent into the picture1 control

    Can also be VB6 code editor, visual form designer two parts, made into two controls. And then redevelop the toolbox menu and so on.This allows you to develop any modern vb7 IDE interface you want.


    A little confused. I'm talking about turning some off-the-shelf software into a control that displays only the areas you need.
    Exe Becomes a control
    Since VB.NET is more powerful than VB6 in many aspects, we can encapsulate its control and class library to VB6.

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    Re: Why is VB.Net/C#/XAML + VS2019 is better than VB6? Here's why.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    Why is Windows the most popular OS in the world and not this 16 MB pygmy Linux thing?
    Now the hard disk is very cheap, and it is not a problem for you to buy two more.I bought 32 GB of memory.There may be a lot of developers who only use a laptop with 8GB of memory.

    So does it matter if vs2019 takes up 100gb after installation.
    Microsoft's windows phone, win10 for arm, all failed.Because they are in the cell phone system inside too much power, too much memory and CPU, which is a fatal shortcoming.


    Python, running speed than JS Net, Java, go, a few times slower to dozens of times.Mainly because it has a large number of open source libraries, the development speed is a very important indicator.

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    Re: Why is VB.Net/C#/XAML + VS2019 is better than VB6? Here's why.....

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    ...Now it makes compact binaries ...
    Nope, still doesn't...

    The mentioned 19MB are seen only with plain "headless WebServer-installations".
    (no DB-Drivers are included then - and also no "GUI-libs").

    If you include DB-Drivers and GUI-runtimes, then you are back to about 200MB or something.

    They found factor 2-3 somewhere, but there's still a factor 30-50 "to go",
    until .NET-Core operates at the same level of efficiency, as COM-libs.

    Olaf

  9. #409

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    Re: Why is VB.Net/C#/XAML + VS2019 is better than VB6? Here's why.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmidt View Post
    If you include DB-Drivers and GUI-runtimes, then you are back to about 200MB or something.
    This is a straight up false:-


    Treeview with NodeAdded/NodesRemoved events | BlinkLabel control | Calculate Permutations | Object Enums | ComboBox with centered items | .Net Internals article(not mine) | Wizard Control | Understanding Multi-Threading | Simple file compression | Demon Arena

    Copy/move files using Windows Shell

    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

  10. #410

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    Re: Why is VB.Net/C#/XAML + VS2019 is better than VB6? Here's why.....

    Also, I'm curious why you guys complain about bloat so much, yet you are not writing your applications in C or C++? Microsoft's C/C++ compilers have been producing tiny binaries for decades now. COM itself is a piece of bloatware that pollutes your registry, which can cause numerous problems when they are poorly written. Nearly all of Windows' core functionality resides in simple flat function exports from DLLs with no need for COM.

    This whole line of argument just doesn't stand up to scrutiny to be honest.
    Treeview with NodeAdded/NodesRemoved events | BlinkLabel control | Calculate Permutations | Object Enums | ComboBox with centered items | .Net Internals article(not mine) | Wizard Control | Understanding Multi-Threading | Simple file compression | Demon Arena

    Copy/move files using Windows Shell

    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

  11. #411

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    Re: Why is VB.Net/C#/XAML + VS2019 is better than VB6? Here's why.....

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    An that is how it should have been. Now it makes compact binaries which is a selling point and a positive, worth saying - which only goes to accentuate and highlight the previous negative being bloat.
    I guess it has advantages. However, in actual practice it's better to just distribute the EXE in 90% of cases. You will almost never find a Windows computer in today's world without some version of the Framework installed. Even in those rare instances, Windows offers to do download which only takes a couple clicks. I have never ever and I mean ever had any problem deploying .Net applications. You just copy the exe or the folder with the exe to the target system and you're good to go.

    Even VB6 doesn't make it that easy without having to jump through a bunch of hoops and if you get it wrong, you can literally break someone's PC. I actually screwed up someone's system one time by giving them a fix to a VB6 application. The damn thing refused to run on his system, despite the fact that he already had the same program installed. I then gave him an installer and it messed up the registry and broke a bunch of things on his system. I have had many similar experiences with VB6 over the years I used it. I never any any such problems with .Net. Not even close.
    Treeview with NodeAdded/NodesRemoved events | BlinkLabel control | Calculate Permutations | Object Enums | ComboBox with centered items | .Net Internals article(not mine) | Wizard Control | Understanding Multi-Threading | Simple file compression | Demon Arena

    Copy/move files using Windows Shell

    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

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    Re: Why is VB.Net/C#/XAML + VS2019 is better than VB6? Here's why.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    This is a straight up false:-


    No, the increase from 19MB to now "only" 80MB is, because you've choosen to deploy to a Win10-target.
    If you want to deploy the same App to Linux (is XP possible - or Win7?), you'll have to put a lot more dependencies into your package.

    Remember my point - the 3MB zipped (of the current RichClient-framework, based on COM) -
    which is about factor 30 smaller than your 80MB - is already "the worst case" (when the deployment-target is "Windows").

    In case the deployment-target is Linux, then cairo- and sqlite3.dll are usually "already there".

    Olaf

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    Re: Why is VB.Net/C#/XAML + VS2019 is better than VB6? Here's why.....

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    ****e the fish.
    Was that stone? Strange that it got censored...and all but the e. We'll see what happens to this post.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

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    Re: Why is VB.Net/C#/XAML + VS2019 is better than VB6? Here's why.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmidt View Post
    Nope, still doesn't...

    The mentioned 19MB are seen only with plain "headless WebServer-installations".
    (no DB-Drivers are included then - and also no "GUI-libs").

    If you include DB-Drivers and GUI-runtimes, then you are back to about 200MB or something.

    They found factor 2-3 somewhere, but there's still a factor 30-50 "to go",
    until .NET-Core operates at the same level of efficiency, as COM-libs.

    Olaf
    Why stop there? Why not make it all run in 64K, the way it was meant to be.

    This argument about memory is nuts. You can get a micro SD card that is the size of your little fingernail, holds 1 TB, and costs some trivial amount of money. Sure, they could make it smaller, but NOBODY cares unless they have no other front they can possibly win on. Memory doesn't need to be the limitation on ANYTHING anymore, not on size, cost, or power consumption.
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    Re: Why is VB.Net/C#/XAML + VS2019 is better than VB6? Here's why.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Why stop there? Why not make it all run in 64K, the way it was meant to be.

    This argument about memory is nuts. You can get a micro SD card that is the size of your little fingernail, holds 1 TB, and costs some trivial amount of money. Sure, they could make it smaller, but NOBODY cares unless they have no other front they can possibly win on. Memory doesn't need to be the limitation on ANYTHING anymore, not on size, cost, or power consumption.
    In terms of personal preference, some people like big and bloated things, and some people like small and delicate/exquisite things.

    In terms of work, sometimes large and bloated products will not have a big impact, but in many cases, our work requires us to have more compact and exquisite products.

    From a global perspective, it's precisely because people are unrestrained/uncontrolled in the process of industrialization that the global temperature keeps rising, isn't it?

    When Microsoft and the IT industry developed larger and more bloated products and cheaper, larger-capacity storage devices, the consumption of electricity and materials was increasing sharply. This is another kind of uncontrolled/unrestrained industrialization, isn't it?

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    Re: Why is VB.Net/C#/XAML + VS2019 is better than VB6? Here's why.....

    I like my women to be slimline and efficient. Some parts can be bloated but I am content with just minor swelling.
    By the power invested in me, all the threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones - no arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign.

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    Re: Why is VB.Net/C#/XAML + VS2019 is better than VB6? Here's why.....

    Quote Originally Posted by SearchingDataOnly View Post
    In terms of personal preference, some people like big and bloated things, and some people like small and delicate/exquisite things.

    In terms of work, sometimes large and bloated products will not have a big impact, but in many cases, our work requires us to have more compact and exquisite products.

    From a global perspective, it's precisely because people are unrestrained/uncontrolled in the process of industrialization that the global temperature keeps rising, isn't it?

    When Microsoft and the IT industry developed larger and more bloated products and cheaper, larger-capacity storage devices, the consumption of electricity and materials was increasing sharply. This is another kind of uncontrolled/unrestrained industrialization, isn't it?
    No. Not a bit of that is even vaguely true when it comes to computers. The biggest increase in computer power consumption comes almost certainly from the FAR bigger and more power hungry graphics cards. The old ones didn't need dedicated power cables, good modern cards may suck more power than the rest of the computer. As for size, my first HD was 44MB, and was considerably larger than my current one, which holds about 5,000 times as much, but even that 44MB HD was FAR smaller than the 10MB HD a buddy of mine had in college. That drive took a whole second chassis as large as the computer itself.

    Nobody measures programs by weight or volume. The size of a program has no relationship to the amount of power consumed. The size of memory is getting smaller even as the quantity is growing fast.

    If you want small delicate/exquisite things, write in ASM.
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  18. #418

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    Re: Why is VB.Net/C#/XAML + VS2019 is better than VB6? Here's why.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmidt View Post
    No, the increase from 19MB to now "only" 80MB is, because you've choosen to deploy to a Win10-target.
    If you want to deploy the same App to Linux (is XP possible - or Win7?), you'll have to put a lot more dependencies into your package.

    Remember my point - the 3MB zipped (of the current RichClient-framework, based on COM) -
    which is about factor 30 smaller than your 80MB - is already "the worst case" (when the deployment-target is "Windows").

    In case the deployment-target is Linux, then cairo- and sqlite3.dll are usually "already there".

    Olaf
    The same database code in a Console Application compiled to 32MB for Linux.

    All of this talk about bloat and we are still dealing with sizes less than of 100 MB. I see programs in my task manager using 100+ MB of memory as part of their normal operation. I have 6 tabs open in Google Chrome and it's using 300 MB of memory! Next on that list is the Antimalware Service executable using 100 MB and after this is Windows explorer using 40 MB of memory. We are talking about memory here, a more scarce resource than hard disk space. You guys are literally complaining about nothing. If bloat really bothers you all that much, none of you would be using Windows. You guys don't care one bit about bloat. You're just using that as reason to complain about .Net. and pass off VB6 as being superior. This is a very poor argument. You guys latch on to these types of arguments to cover the fact that you don't really have a real solid, sensible and undeniable reason for using VB6 over VB.Net. That's the truth.
    Last edited by Niya; Sep 4th, 2021 at 07:50 PM.
    Treeview with NodeAdded/NodesRemoved events | BlinkLabel control | Calculate Permutations | Object Enums | ComboBox with centered items | .Net Internals article(not mine) | Wizard Control | Understanding Multi-Threading | Simple file compression | Demon Arena

    Copy/move files using Windows Shell

    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

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    Re: Why is VB.Net/C#/XAML + VS2019 is better than VB6? Here's why.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    No. Not a bit of that is even vaguely true when it comes to computers. The biggest increase in computer power consumption comes almost certainly from the FAR bigger and more power hungry graphics cards. The old ones didn't need dedicated power cables, good modern cards may suck more power than the rest of the computer. As for size, my first HD was 44MB, and was considerably larger than my current one, which holds about 5,000 times as much, but even that 44MB HD was FAR smaller than the 10MB HD a buddy of mine had in college. That drive took a whole second chassis as large as the computer itself.

    Nobody measures programs by weight or volume. The size of a program has no relationship to the amount of power consumed. The size of memory is getting smaller even as the quantity is growing fast.
    Larger and more bloated products and cheaper, larger-capacity storage/memory "indirectly lead" to the dramatic increase in data transmitted over the Internet.

    Even if you are far away from the Internet, copying, backing up, installing, starting, and running some large and bloated products on the local-network/local-PC requires more time and more resources.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    If you want small delicate/exquisite things, write in ASM.
    In many cases, we need a balance, not from one extreme to the other extreme (from ASM to .NET)

    In addition, the huge bloat is only one of the reasons why we hate .NET, not the whole reason.
    Last edited by SearchingDataOnly; Sep 4th, 2021 at 07:54 PM.

  20. #420

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    Re: Why is VB.Net/C#/XAML + VS2019 is better than VB6? Here's why.....

    Oh yea, and here's something interesting. When I run the 80 MB self-contained program I referenced in post #409, it only consumes 19 MB of memory, significantly less than the typical programs you see running in task manager. This talk of bloat has zero legs to stand on. A completely null argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Why stop there? Why not make it all run in 64K, the way it was meant to be.

    This argument about memory is nuts. You can get a micro SD card that is the size of your little fingernail, holds 1 TB, and costs some trivial amount of money. Sure, they could make it smaller, but NOBODY cares unless they have no other front they can possibly win on. Memory doesn't need to be the limitation on ANYTHING anymore, not on size, cost, or power consumption.
    Yea, pretty much this.
    Treeview with NodeAdded/NodesRemoved events | BlinkLabel control | Calculate Permutations | Object Enums | ComboBox with centered items | .Net Internals article(not mine) | Wizard Control | Understanding Multi-Threading | Simple file compression | Demon Arena

    Copy/move files using Windows Shell

    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

  21. #421

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    Re: Why is VB.Net/C#/XAML + VS2019 is better than VB6? Here's why.....

    Quote Originally Posted by SearchingDataOnly View Post
    In addition, the huge bloat is only one of the reasons why we hate .NET, not the whole reason.
    Oh you can stay in VB6 Mr. 25 years. We don't want you teaching impressionable minds things like Chr(-24147) over here. VB6 is perfect for you. The damage will be confined to the 15 or so people that still use it.
    Treeview with NodeAdded/NodesRemoved events | BlinkLabel control | Calculate Permutations | Object Enums | ComboBox with centered items | .Net Internals article(not mine) | Wizard Control | Understanding Multi-Threading | Simple file compression | Demon Arena

    Copy/move files using Windows Shell

    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

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    Re: Why is VB.Net/C#/XAML + VS2019 is better than VB6? Here's why.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    Oh you can stay in VB6 Mr. 25 years. We don't want you teaching impressionable minds things like Chr(-24147) over here. VB6 is perfect for you. The damage will be confined to the 15 or so people that still use it.
    You don't need to waste time on my posts, you have completely lost your sanity.
    Last edited by SearchingDataOnly; Sep 4th, 2021 at 08:54 PM.

  23. #423
    MS SQL Powerposter szlamany's Avatar
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    Re: Why is VB.Net/C#/XAML + VS2019 is better than VB6? Here's why.....

    Niya, 1 pt, sdo,??

    Niya 1!

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    Quote Originally Posted by szlamany View Post
    Niya, 1 pt, sdo,??

    Niya 1!
    lol.....
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  25. #425
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    Re: Why is VB.Net/C#/XAML + VS2019 is better than VB6? Here's why.....

    Quote Originally Posted by SearchingDataOnly View Post
    Larger and more bloated products and cheaper, larger-capacity storage/memory "indirectly lead" to the dramatic increase in data transmitted over the Internet.

    Even if you are far away from the Internet, copying, backing up, installing, starting, and running some large and bloated products on the local-network/local-PC requires more time and more resources.
    No. The bloat in size is in data files. Increases in the size of programs is insignificant by comparison. I work in Biology. The increased image quality in cameras means that we are now trying to figure out how to archive petabytes. It was only a couple decades back when a couple terabytes was considered sufficient. The programs have changed little in that time, image quality is causing memory needs to soar. Everything else is insignificant. We'll be learning the prefix beyond petabytes in no time, at this rate.
    Last edited by Shaggy Hiker; Sep 5th, 2021 at 10:34 AM.
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    lol...imagine complaining about 80 MB in 2021.....You can't make this stuff up! My ****** little 5 year old Phone has 32 GB of storage.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

  27. #427
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    Re: Why is VB.Net/C#/XAML + VS2019 is better than VB6? Here's why.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    lol...imagine complaining about 80 MB in 2021.....You can't make this stuff up! My ****** little 5 year old Phone has 32 GB of storage.
    The problem is that until now (2021) you seem to be unable to use .NET to develop some web-apps that can run on your phone with 32GB of storage. On the contrary, Olaf was able to run many of his web-apps on mobile phones with 1GB storage 10 years ago, and those web-apps are all driven by VB6-apps on the server side.

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    Re: Why is VB.Net/C#/XAML + VS2019 is better than VB6? Here's why.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    lol...imagine complaining about 80 MB in 2021
    My ****** little 5 year old Phone has 32 GB of storage.
    Hmm, if you place two functional identical Apps in the App-Store:
    - App 1 with 80MB (with a Startup-time of 5 seconds)
    - App 2 with 3MB (with a Startup-time of 0.2 seconds)

    Which of the two Apps will earn you more money in the end?

    Besides, you .NETers still did not really get the Main-Point of this argument.

    The "Memory-issue" I've pointed out is just the (glaringly obvious) symptom.

    I don't use the .NET-framework, to avoid the underneath working tech, which is causing this memory-issue.


    Olaf
    Last edited by Shaggy Hiker; Sep 5th, 2021 at 10:36 AM. Reason: Snuffing out the sparks.

  29. #429

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schmidt View Post
    Hmm, if you place two functional identical Apps in the App-Store:
    - App 1 with 80MB (with a Startup-time of 5 seconds)
    - App 2 with 3MB (with a Startup-time of 0.2 seconds)

    Which of the two Apps will earn you more money in the end?

    Besides, you .NETers still did not really get the Main-Point of this argument.

    The "Memory-issue" I've pointed out is just the (glaringly obvious) symptom.

    I don't use the .NET-framework, to avoid the underneath working tech, which is causing this memory-issue.
    You are one of the most brilliant programmers I have ever seen. There is no doubt about that but I wonder sometimes if you don't do your research before making claims like that.

    The raw application size of Google Chrome on my phone is 23.09 MB. The raw app size of the Google App is 364 MB. The raw app size of the FaceBook app is 174 MB. The raw app size of WhatsApp is 66.46 MB. The YouTube app is 154 MB. Google Play Services is 226 MB. The Gmail app is 89.60 MB. Samsung Notes is 77.25 MB. The calender app is 47.51 MB. The camera app is 17 MB. The Galaxy Store app is 60.31 MB. The text message app is 32.24 MB.

    I don't think I have to explain the point here.
    Last edited by Shaggy Hiker; Sep 5th, 2021 at 10:37 AM. Reason: More sparks.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

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    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

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    Re: Why is VB.Net/C#/XAML + VS2019 is better than VB6? Here's why.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    The raw application size of Google Chrome on my phone is 23.09 MB.
    The raw app size of the Google App is 364 MB.
    Same difference... (I wrote about this already in #390):
    What I'm criticising, is the whole "sloppy approach" we see in software-development and -tech these days
    (not only in ".NET-land", but also in "Javascript-land" as far as frameworks are concerned).

    And yes, you can include "Java-land" in that list as well... (another VM-based software-stack, where "everything is an Object").

    You know, there is this well-known saying:
    1. One can solve any problem in software-tech by introducing an additional abstraction-layer.
    2. But this will introduce "other problems" of course...

    This was originally understood as a warning (to "not go there", ... to remain with "KISS" instead)...

    Whilst the "current hipster generation" of devs obviously understands it as a "Mantra"...
    (where they simply cycle back to 1. - as soon as "new, exciting other problems" crop up in 2.) -
    ...thereby - over the last decade - producing these "final results" you've listed.

    I think it is high time, to look (rebuild) software-stacks, where "KISS" and "DRY" are reinstantiated - and "rule throughout"...
    Let the link to the 16MB TinyCore-Desktop-Linux I gave in #390 just serve as an "encouragment",
    (as a kind of proof, that it is technically possible, to start such a "revival").

    It's up to you, whether you want to orient yourself (as a developer) on "the million flies" -
    or instead try to find the "gems of genius" which are still out there ...
    (studying them, incorporating them, building a new, modern stack upon them).

    As said, that's what I was doing already for the last decades "hobby-wise" -
    (and will continue to do for a few more)...

    Olaf

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    Re: Why is VB.Net/C#/XAML + VS2019 is better than VB6? Here's why.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmidt View Post
    Same difference... (I wrote about this already in #390):
    What I'm criticising, is the whole "sloppy approach" we see in software-development and -tech these days
    (not only in ".NET-land", but also in "Javascript-land" as far as frameworks are concerned).

    And yes, you can include "Java-land" in that list as well... (another VM-based software-stack, where "everything is an Object").

    You know, there is this well-known saying:
    1. One can solve any problem in software-tech by introducing an additional abstraction-layer.
    2. But this will introduce "other problems" of course...

    This was originally understood as a warning (to "not go there", ... to remain with "KISS" instead)...

    Whilst the "current hipster generation" of devs obviously understands it as a "Mantra"...
    (where they simply cycle back to 1. - as soon as "new, exciting other problems" crop up in 2.) -
    ...thereby - over the last decade - producing these "final results" you've listed.

    I think it is high time, to look (rebuild) software-stacks, where "KISS" and "DRY" are reinstantiated - and "rule throughout"...
    Let the link to the 16MB TinyCore-Desktop-Linux I gave in #390 just serve as an "encouragment",
    (as a kind of proof, that it is technically possible, to start such a "revival").

    It's up to you, whether you want to orient yourself (as a developer) on "the million flies" -
    or instead try to find the "gems of genius" which are still out there ...
    (studying them, incorporating them, building a new, modern stack upon them).

    As said, that's what I was doing already for the last decades "hobby-wise" -
    (and will continue to do for a few more)...

    Olaf
    To be honest, I can't really argue with this. This makes sense

    Thing is though, I think we differ philosophically. I absolutely do not believe in fighting against the world. The world is built by a lot of people way smarter than me and some of them, even smarter than you and this is the direction they are going. They don't seem to have a problem with thick multi-layered abstractions. Who am I to say otherwise? I find I am able to function perfectly in the world they have built in all it's multi-megabyte glory. As "bloated" as these modern tools and frameworks might be, they do exactly what I need them to do and they do it more effectively than the thin layered tools of the past. Why would I want to rebel against this? It works fine.

    EDIT:

    Also, being a rebel is just too costly in terms of time. For all the extra mega-bytes of Framework MS brought with the introduction of .Net, they brought something even more important, time. It takes less time to write the same programs. That is more valuable than a few extra megabytes.
    Last edited by Niya; Sep 5th, 2021 at 05:26 AM.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

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  32. #432

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    You know, all of this just conjured up a very old memory for me. I still laugh when I think about it. I remember moving from QuickBasic/DOS to Windows/VB when I was still in my teens. Back in the QuickBasic days, we used to write our own databases using Open file For Random. I was introduced to SQL Server and I remember feeling that it was big, bloated and it required you to install it. In QuickBasic, your database engine, if you could call it that, was actually a part of your program. No need to install anything. Your "engine" was built in. I literally wanted to write my own database engine in VB based on the same record file principles from QuickBasic so I could just slap it into whatever application I want without the need to install this big bloated thing called SQL Server. Long story short, I was made to see what a foolish endeavor that was. SQL Server for all it's "bloat" was many times more powerful than anything I could write in even a year. And once I learned how to use it, I realized what I was really scared of was having to go outside of my comfort zone. I was afraid of not being able to operate in this new world as comfortably as I could in the old one.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

  33. #433
    PowerPoster ChrisE's Avatar
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    Re: Why is VB.Net/C#/XAML + VS2019 is better than VB6? Here's why.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    As "bloated" as these modern tools and frameworks might be, they do exactly what I need them to do and they do it more effectively than the thin layered tools of the past. Why would I want to rebel against this? It works fine.

    EDIT:

    Also, being a rebel is just too costly in terms of time. For all the extra mega-bytes of Framework MS brought with the introduction of .Net, they brought something even more important, time. It takes less time to write the same programs. That is more valuable than a few extra megabytes.
    that's the main problem in this World right now. Nobody seem's to care ....:
    As "bloated" as these modern tools and frameworks might be, they do exactly etc....
    or
    For all the extra mega-bytes of Framework MS brought with the introduction of .Net, they brought something even more important, time.

    nobody really paid any attention in the 60-70s or evan 80s what a Car need's on Gas
    and look at the state the World is in now

    so how efficient should your/the program be??
    to hunt a species to extinction is not logical !
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  34. #434
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    Re: Why is VB.Net/C#/XAML + VS2019 is better than VB6? Here's why.....

    We probably all fall somewhere on that scale. I love the idea of hand tuning ASM, even though it was barely practical with the first Pentiums, and is not completely impractical, since the decision tree for optimizing ASM is now so complex that compilers are far more effective at it than humans.

    Still, a bit of that feeds into my code. For example, I don't use LINQ very much at all, and for one project I had it and removed it. Some folks on here have argued that a line of LINQ is more compact than six lines of non-LINQ, even though the six lines runs faster than the single line. They have a real point. Most of the time spent in most applications is time spent waiting for the meat sack at the keyboard to type a key. I'm a fast typist, but the time between even my fastest keystrokes is an eternity for the modern CPU...and god forbid I make a typo.

    With so much leisure time for the processor, it can afford the inefficiency of LINQ in most programs. Nobody will see the difference. The one program where I removed all the LINQ is the core of a plugin driven system. I don't know how efficient the plugins will be, so all I can do is make the core as fast as I reasonably can.

    I still don't worry about the size of the program, though. It's insignificant, these days, and makes no difference.
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  35. #435
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    Re: Why is VB.Net/C#/XAML + VS2019 is better than VB6? Here's why.....

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisE View Post
    that's the main problem in this World right now. Nobody seem's to care ....:
    As "bloated" as these modern tools and frameworks might be, they do exactly etc....
    or
    For all the extra mega-bytes of Framework MS brought with the introduction of .Net, they brought something even more important, time.

    nobody really paid any attention in the 60-70s or evan 80s what a Car need's on Gas
    and look at the state the World is in now

    so how efficient should your/the program be??
    Yeah...up to a point. However, the power consumption of the computer is not really driven by the size of a program, so when it comes to power savings, that doesn't factor into it. As for the need to constantly advance technology, I said several years ago that we're kind of like Wiley Coyote who has run out off the edge of the cliff: As long as we keep running, we'll be okay, and by now, we can't make it back.
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  36. #436
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    Re: Why is VB.Net/C#/XAML + VS2019 is better than VB6? Here's why.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    We probably all fall somewhere on that scale. I love the idea of hand tuning ASM, even though it was barely practical with the first Pentiums, and is not completely impractical, since the decision tree for optimizing ASM is now so complex that compilers are far more effective at it than humans.

    Still, a bit of that feeds into my code. For example, I don't use LINQ very much at all, and for one project I had it and removed it. Some folks on here have argued that a line of LINQ is more compact than six lines of non-LINQ, even though the six lines runs faster than the single line. They have a real point. Most of the time spent in most applications is time spent waiting for the meat sack at the keyboard to type a key. I'm a fast typist, but the time between even my fastest keystrokes is an eternity for the modern CPU...and god forbid I make a typo.

    With so much leisure time for the processor, it can afford the inefficiency of LINQ in most programs. Nobody will see the difference. The one program where I removed all the LINQ is the core of a plugin driven system. I don't know how efficient the plugins will be, so all I can do is make the core as fast as I reasonably can.

    I still don't worry about the size of the program, though. It's insignificant, these days, and makes no difference.
    Playing around with some Linq / non-linq benchmarking on my local PC and there is indeed a performance difference.

    I was just experimenting with Linq to Objects (mainly to remove any outside variables such as databases / sql code generation) and Linq is indeed slower. As an example, just taking an array of numbers and calculating an average, linq was about 7 times slower than a hand coded for next loop. However, even with a list of a 100,000,000 integers the slower Linq version was still getting a result in about 400ms.

    I chose a simple average as a test as the time differences are pretty much entirely down to linq overheads, rather than the complexity of the calculation, an overhead of about 360ms for 100,000,000 calculations isn't that big a deal when compared to the time between keystrokes and mouse presses.

    Obviously, there are times when the overheads may be too much. Linq with SQL / EF etc. is a different matter entirely as the quality of SQL generated is going to be a bigger influence along with DB tuning etc.

  37. #437

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    Re: Why is VB.Net/C#/XAML + VS2019 is better than VB6? Here's why.....

    There is an interesting point to me made when it comes to LINQ. I absolutely love LINQ. It is a life saver. It saves you so much time since filtering and transforming lists and arrays is a very common operation in the most typical programs. However, there is a time not to use it. When people understand when these times are, they will see no downsides in having something like LINQ at their disposal.
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  38. #438
    MS SQL Powerposter szlamany's Avatar
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    Re: Why is VB.Net/C#/XAML + VS2019 is better than VB6? Here's why.....

    For backend code running in IIS, I would avoid LINQ. Scaling can be enough of a challenge, no need to add know bottlenecks!

    *** Read the sticky in the DB forum about how to get your question answered quickly!! ***

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  39. #439

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    Re: Why is VB.Net/C#/XAML + VS2019 is better than VB6? Here's why.....

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisE View Post
    that's the main problem in this World right now. Nobody seem's to care ....:
    As "bloated" as these modern tools and frameworks might be, they do exactly etc....
    or
    For all the extra mega-bytes of Framework MS brought with the introduction of .Net, they brought something even more important, time.

    nobody really paid any attention in the 60-70s or evan 80s what a Car need's on Gas
    and look at the state the World is in now

    so how efficient should your/the program be??
    Oh I remember the old days of programming. I would choose what we have to day over that any day. The 90s were the wild west. Someone like Olaf would have probably loved these times. Everything was tiny. These were the days where you could literally write full programs in assembly and compile them to EXEs about 90 bytes in size. There were no frameworks or runtimes like we have today. At most, you had a static library with some basic functions that you would statically link to your programs. I remember that QuickBasic programs with no code and I mean no code at all, just an empty .BAS file, would compile to 33K because of linkage to it's static libraries and THAT was considered bloat. A typical C or assembly program compiled to anything from a few hundred bytes to a couple thousand kilobytes.

    The thing about those days, you had to do everything yourself. There are so many things I feel programmers take for granted today. I mean how many of you have actually had to write your own network code, and I don't mean that baby stuff like calling Winsock functions we all do today, I mean real net code like to process ethernet frames and whatnot. How many of you have actually had to write your own mouse driver. I remember in QuickBasic to implement mouse functionality in your program, you literally had to tap into interrupts and stuff yourself. Of course there were DOS drivers that made this easier but you were still expected to do some grunt work poking around in the system internals and this is real mode we are talking about here. You could directly access your hardware so if you poked in the wrong place, you could do some serious damage. Graphics? You think you were going to call BitBlt like you can today? No. You had the access the video adapter yourself. You'd have to know quite a bit about IRQs and vertical sync and a bunch of other technical stuff that had absolutely nothing to do with the actual drawing code. Most of this stuff was way over my head at the time but I was smart enough to know what I was seeing. I just wasn't knowledgeable or brave enough to attempt these things myself. I was barely a teenager in those days. The internet then had nothing like MSDN that explained everything in detail.

    I understand perfectly where we came from and I understand why we have such thick abstractions today. I'm telling you right now, 90% of so called programmers today would have to go work at WalMart if those abstractions disappeared. They don't want to be in a world where these abstractions don't exist.
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    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

  40. #440
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    Re: Why is VB.Net/C#/XAML + VS2019 is better than VB6? Here's why.....

    Back then, we didn't HAVE networks. Neither of the places I worked in the 90s had anything that could be considered a network.

    Compiling could take an awfully long time back then, too.
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

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