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Thread: [RESOLVED] Ethics and choice

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    Resolved [RESOLVED] Ethics and choice

    If a customer asks to make a desktop program, can I ethically seduce him to opt for a web system?

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    Re: Ethics and choice

    Well the *seducing* part may not be ethical, but if you think that the web system will be the better choice for them, I think you could present a business/economic case. If they agree with your points, then they will take your advice. They might not be aware that a web system is a choice, and in that case you are being more ethical by presenting all the options.

    At the end of the day, they may just want a desktop program though - and if that's the case they may stick to their guns. At that point, you have to decide if you want the contract or not, and if you take it you're bound to the terms (desktop or web).

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    Re: Ethics and choice

    If a web app makes more sense for their needs then by all means yes. But it depends on the project. In general, a lot of productivity applications are still run as desktop apps and with good reasons i.e no internet connection needed/wanted, speed of same, user doesn't want to pay recurring fee(s), etc.

    I'd pry further into your customer's needs and go from there.....

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    Re: Ethics and choice

    Unless there's a really good reason it must be a web system...

    Making something a web system and thus requiring an always-active internet connection, and introducing security vulnerabilities that inevitably arise from connectivity, when it could be a desktop app instead, is a grave violation of ethics, morality, and justice.
    Last edited by fafalone; Jan 27th, 2021 at 07:58 PM.

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    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Ethics and choice

    Got darn near every position in just three posts. Totally awesome.
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    Re: Ethics and choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Episcopal View Post
    If a customer asks to make a desktop program, can I ethically seduce him to opt for a web system?
    Seduction involves malicious intents. Let's change it to "induce" or "offer".

    Usually a customer has a need to cover. It does not need to be desktop or web specifically beforehand, those are design options.

    You offer what you can do, if you are better skilled to make a web app, then you'll probably offer that. If you are better skilled in desktop apps, then that.
    If you can do both, you can give options and explain the advantages and disavantages of each one.
    I don't know what ethics has to do with it.

  7. #7
    PowerPoster Zvoni's Avatar
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    Re: Ethics and choice

    From a "Sales"-Point-of-view:
    The secret to success is not selling what the client wants/demands, but finding out, what he needs.

    Honestly? How many clients do actually know what they are talking about in terms of Usability, used technology, Future-proof etc.?

    So, my advice: Find out what he needs, not what he wants.

    EDIT: I've just read the other posts.
    [RANT ON]
    Could someone please explain, why everyone is thinking of Internet-Connectivity when "Web-System" is brought up?
    You are aware, that you can run a "Web-System" in a local network, which never touches a single bit in the outside world?
    [RANT OFF]
    Last edited by Zvoni; Jan 28th, 2021 at 02:05 AM.
    Last edited by Zvoni; Tomorrow at 31:69 PM.
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    Re: Ethics and choice

    "web" implies "world wide web"

    If it wasn't going over the internet I'd expect it to be referred to as a network system, LAN system, or even server system, rather than "web" system.

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    PowerPoster Zvoni's Avatar
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    Re: Ethics and choice

    Quote Originally Posted by fafalone View Post
    "web" implies "world wide web"

    If it wasn't going over the internet I'd expect it to be referred to as a network system, LAN system, or even server system, rather than "web" system.
    I disagree.
    That might have been correct some 10-15 years ago, but nowadays everything employing a Web-Server, WebBroswer, MySQL, PHP, ASP etc., is considered "Web-System" irrespective if it runs exclusively on a LAN or touches the outside World.

    I know for a fact, that there are some companies in Germany, which use a "Web"-based ERP-System (WebBrowser, MySQL, PHP, HTML5, CSS etc.), which definitely runs exclusively on LAN
    Last edited by Zvoni; Tomorrow at 31:69 PM.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    One System to rule them all, One Code to find them,
    One IDE to bring them all, and to the Framework bind them,
    in the Land of Redmond, where the Windows lie
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    People call me crazy because i'm jumping out of perfectly fine airplanes.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Code is like a joke: If you have to explain it, it's bad

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    Re: Ethics and choice

    That some companies want to pretend there shouldn't be a difference between words used to describe something that runs over the open internet and words used to describe something running on the local LAN doesn't mean the rest the the world can't go on recognizing that these two different scenarios use two different descriptive words regardless of their incorrect usage

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    PowerPoster Zvoni's Avatar
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    Re: Ethics and choice

    Agree on the incorrect usage of descriptions.

    Neverthless, it doesn't change the fact, that nowadays it is the correct term.
    Point in case: An Intranet (like in the company i work for).
    We use a Webbrowser to access the Intranet, the content is provided by a webserver and a Database-Server. The content is never accessed from the outside world, since it's not exposed.
    For all intents and purposes, it's a "Web"-System.
    Last edited by Zvoni; Tomorrow at 31:69 PM.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    One System to rule them all, One Code to find them,
    One IDE to bring them all, and to the Framework bind them,
    in the Land of Redmond, where the Windows lie
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    People call me crazy because i'm jumping out of perfectly fine airplanes.
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    Code is like a joke: If you have to explain it, it's bad

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    Re: Ethics and choice

    nowadays people knows about web and desktop, its not that we are living in the late 1990.
    if a customer asks for a desktop program it should be like that, but if you think that theres some benefit of using any web-services, you should discuss that with the customer.
    but to seduce the customer to make a web system because you feel its fun to make is wrong.
    the customer experience and the program usefulness for the customer is whats important, not your own gain.

  13. #13
    Smooth Moperator techgnome's Avatar
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    Re: Ethics and choice

    There are different words. Three of them: Internet, Extranet, and Intranet. Regardless, they are all still web-based. If a system is web-based, it can be in any one of those three zones. It doesn't necessarily have to be or necessitate being on the internet. It may have that connotation, but doesn't have that requirement.


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    PowerPoster Zvoni's Avatar
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    Re: Ethics and choice

    tg, thank you.

    Nevermind, that the "classic" Desktop-App is basically dead in such a scenario (let's call it "network-based ERP")
    Why?
    Each client-workstation has to be setup with the client-app incl. drivers for DB-Access.
    In case of an update, each client-workstation has to be "updated" (Yes, i know there are Smart Update-Tools for that).

    In a "web"-based approach:
    Clients only need one thing: A Browser
    Any update is done on the "server" since the code is centralized.
    This even opens up the usage of mobile devices (Tablets etc.)

    Back to the OP: As i said: Find out what he needs, not what he wants, and then present the Pro's and Con's of each approach (as described above)
    Last edited by Zvoni; Tomorrow at 31:69 PM.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    One System to rule them all, One Code to find them,
    One IDE to bring them all, and to the Framework bind them,
    in the Land of Redmond, where the Windows lie
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    People call me crazy because i'm jumping out of perfectly fine airplanes.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Code is like a joke: If you have to explain it, it's bad

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    Re: Ethics and choice

    These days, most hacker intrusions occur on servers. And if a hacker breaks into a workstation, it is usually just to get access to the server. From a customer perspective, if there is a choice between a free standing desktop application and a server based application, I would choose the desktop application any day of the week.

    J.A. Coutts

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    Re: Ethics and choice

    Quote Originally Posted by baka View Post
    nowadays people knows about web and desktop, its not that we are living in the late 1990.
    if a customer asks for a desktop program it should be like that, but if you think that theres some benefit of using any web-services, you should discuss that with the customer.
    but to seduce the customer to make a web system because you feel its fun to make is wrong.
    the customer experience and the program usefulness for the customer is whats important, not your own gain.
    Ok ...

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    Re: Ethics and choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo- View Post
    Seduction involves malicious intents. Let's change it to "induce" or "offer".
    Good observation Eduardo. Thanks.

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    Re: Ethics and choice

    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post
    There are different words. Three of them: Internet, Extranet, and Intranet.
    I may be wrong with my concept ... but I think it fits as an Intranet ...

    Edit: The customer wants a desktop system with local access only within the institution.

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    PowerPoster Elroy's Avatar
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    Re: Ethics and choice

    Here's my take...

    I try my best to listen to the needs and desires of the customer, often helping them to flesh out those things, often writing some rough specifications in that process.

    And then, to the best of my ability, I openly and honestly lay out the pros and cons of different approaches. That can involve scalability, maintainability, future considerations, cost, development time, usability, consideration of my strengths and weaknesses, and anything we can think of.

    And then, I don't try to seduce, persuade, or otherwise non-objectively influence the customer in any way. IMHO, doing so is not acting honorably, and, more importantly, it's just asking for trouble.

    Occasionally, when it's determined that their needs don't fit well with my strengths, we might even agree to pull in other people who are better suited. Again, to not offer that option just isn't honorable.

    Best Regards,
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    Smooth Moperator techgnome's Avatar
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    Re: Ethics and choice

    Like Elroy, my approach to such things is fairly methodical: take their "Wants" (which is rarely their needs) and digest it as best as I can. Make an attempt to dig deep into their real needs. Develop a list of requirements. Develop a set of concepts or options. Present the client with the list, offering both the pros and cons of all options. Price, time, capabilities, etc. Let them make the decision. Start work.

    First time I did an ecommerce website, I looked to see what their competitors were doing, took the best elements of what I saw, combined them, came up with a number of different wireframes, and presented it to the client. Then let them pick the one they wanted.

    At my last job I was working with a client whose main requirement was that the new system work "jsut like the old system" did... ungh... So I actually threw it back at them and asked if it was because they eally wanted itlike that because their processed dictate that, or was their processes built around the old system... turned out that their processes were built around the old system and they hadn't considered that there was a batter way. We found several areas of business process ineffeciencies that were improved through this.


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    Re: Ethics and choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Zvoni View Post
    From a "Sales"-Point-of-view:
    The secret to success is not selling what the client wants/demands, but finding out, what he needs.
    Absolutely agree!

    I've practically made a career out of not giving people what they "want"!

    If the objective was to give them what they wanted, we should have just taught them to do their own programming all these years.

    Regards, Phill W.

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    Re: Ethics and choice

    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post
    First time I did an ecommerce website, I looked to see what their competitors were doing, took the best elements of what I saw, combined them, came up with a number of different wireframes, and presented it to the client. Then let them pick the one they wanted.
    I'm sorry to talk, but the business rule doesn't come from the customer?

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    Smooth Moperator techgnome's Avatar
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    Re: Ethics and choice

    It was in the 90's... and the "requirement" was "We want an ecommerce website to sell our stuff on." ... ok, what do you want it to look like. "I don't know. Just a web site, to sell stuff." They didn't know what they wanted or how it should work. So I had to do the legwork for them. So I spent a week looking at what some of their other competitive companies were doing... pulled together what I thought worked from each one, and combined them into a number of different options that I thought they would like. I then created a presentation that showed them their competitors sites, pointing out the different design aspects, then I showed them the mockups I did and how I integrated the different design elements. Then they picked the one they liked best. That ended up being the design of the overall site. That design is still in use today. The backend has changed dramatically and it's changed hosted hands a number of times but the front end design is still in use.

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    PowerPoster Elroy's Avatar
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    Re: Ethics and choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Elroy View Post
    ... often writing some rough specifications in that process.
    Sorry to quote myself, but that phrase has been bugging me. It's true, but potentially misleading.

    In my particular field (software to assist with clinical pediatric motion capture), I'm often working with several simultaneous sites who will be using the work (not that it really matters in the end). But, particularly in my situation, once we agree that we want to go forward, with "rough" specifications in place ... my first order of business is always to write out a much more detailed set of specifications, and to get all the "players" to sign off on those. These specifications will almost always include data-entry mock-up screens, mocked-up reports, and new database tables and fields. In addition, they may also include various mathematical algorithms used for data processing.

    The older I've gotten, the more I've learned that developing such specifications can prevent a great many problems later on in the project. Also, the older I've gotten, I've learned to trust my memory less regarding all the specific details, and having a written guide is quite helpful.

    Best Regards,
    Elroy
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    Re: Ethics and choice

    Some key things that have been said in the above replies:

    1. It's about delivering what is best for the client, not what is best for you
    2. Clients' wants are often expressed based on limited technical knowledge, and "hearsay", it's your job as a professional to "digg deeper"
    3. You can really make a difference by going beyond simply delivering what they ask, and looking at the processes / "need-behind-the-needs"
    4. If they insist you develop something that you disagree with, or is beyond your skillset, it is ethical and professional to suggest they hire somebody else (that approach will pay off in the long run)
    5. Mock-ups / prototypes are great, but clear written specifications that are signed off by all stakeholders are important (especially if you work fixed price projects!)

    To emphasize the importance of point 5, a little annecdote:

    I once took on the role of manager of a team of consultants whose role it was to create reporting templates. Most of the projects were relatively small, 3-10 days. I was asked to take on the role, since 100% of the projects were delivered late, and 100% of the projects were taken more time than budgetted.... And since these projects were sold at fixed price, this was a bit of a problem...

    What prompted senior management to take action, beyond clients complaining that their reporting templates were never delivered in time, was a 5 day project, that was 13 months past the deadline! The reason, I discovered quickly, was that nobody had bothered to write down specs, and have the client sign off on them. So, the consultant developed a set of vertical bar charts, delivered, and the client decided that they wanted horizontal bars. When the changes were applied, they reconsidered, and said they preferred vertical bars, but stacked. When those were delivered, they changed mind again. The project even went through several revisions about the color-scheme and fonts that had to be used. Etc. ect. The client go away with it, since there were no agreed specs.

    Once we sat down, wrote specs, had them signed off on, the project was finished within no-time. Sure, they again asked for changes when we delivered. But when they were explained that, since we delivered what they signed off on, further changes would cost them extra, these changes all of a sudden were no longer important...

  26. #26

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    Re: Ethics and choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Erwin69 View Post
    Once we sat down, wrote specs, had them signed off on, the project was finished within no-time. Sure, they again asked for changes when we delivered. But when they were explained that, since we delivered what they signed off on, further changes would cost them extra, these changes all of a sudden were no longer important...
    This one was good ... thank

  27. #27
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Ethics and choice

    Yeah, I thought so, too.

    I've come to the conclusion that my users don't know quite what they want until I give them something. They then use that as a base and add variations to it. I've always wondered about that approach, because it means that they start discussing based on the foundation that I built, and who's to say whether that base is any good?

    At least I'm writing programs to manage fish data, and I'm a fish biologist, so I at least know the subject pretty well.
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