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Thread: Is the VB6 community capable to grab the bull by its horns?

  1. #41
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    Re: Is the VB6 community capable to grab the bull by its horns?

    Quote Originally Posted by peterst View Post
    Isn't that the problem with the "migration" to VB.NET?
    Not at all, because the entire glue-code (including Declares to the Win32-API, if somebody doesn't want to write platform-independent VB6-Code)
    will be 100% compatible (as long as it sits in *.bas and *.cls modules).

    That's a significant difference to what MS offered with VB.NET, and what made writing "Project-Importers" such a difficult (nearly impossible) task.

    Olaf

  2. #42
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    Re: Is the VB6 community capable to grab the bull by its horns?

    I dont think people recognize the scale of a project like this. We are blessed with working with what took a professional paid dev team staffed by legit old school wizards a decade to create/refine. Also they ripped most of the code from the Office product team. I can only imagine how many devs had their hands in that.

    As a comparison, look at the years spent, team size, and code base for the open source Lazarus IDE and the Free Pascal compiler.

    Its possible, but its a herculean task. Its also full of specialized tasks. Writing a code editor control with support for all of the modern conveniences including debugger integration support is not trivial. Neither is writing a compiler or runtime or debugger engine. Not to mention support for things like edit and continue.

    Up until the point you can beat what vb6 already has, it will have little value. How many of use any of the free open source Basic's?

    Your realistically looking at a decade of unpaid work with no opportunity for profit at the end.

    As a fun task or personal quest go for it. I fully encourage it you will learn a lot. Just be realistic in your expectations.

  3. #43
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    Re: Is the VB6 community capable to grab the bull by its horns?

    I think only (virtual freebasic)vfb like vb6,vb7.msgbox,ff_replace
    The only drawback is that the current English version has quite a few bugs.
    The Chinese version function unceasingly in the development, individual has developed more than five years time.The Chinese version function is developing unceasingly, individual has developed more than five years time.
    No one pays for the development, and it can not become a profitable project.
    support com dll,ocx,64 bit,createthread 。I once tested a program that supported tens of thousands of threads.
    And he has a free compiler.
    The best way is that the ID is free and open source, but it is estimated that the author is reluctant to part with it.

    freebasic ,He turned out to be the compiler for QBASIC.
    http://www.yfvb.com/soft-48.htm

  4. #44

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    Re: Is the VB6 community capable to grab the bull by its horns?

    OK, some thoughts:

    We don't have to underestimate the task but not to overestimate it either.
    We are not at a zero point now, we have already Krool's controls and we also gained a lot of knowledge and understanding already.

    The time required for doing this work I know is a problem, because we all need to pay the bills every month. That's why the appoach I propose is to break the task into as smaller pieces as possible.
    We are not many now, but I think that not everydody that could be interested in contributing to this project is currently posting on this forum. If they see we are serious, more prople could join.

    I fully agree with what The Trick have said. He basically said what I have been trying to propose. I hope you pay more attention to him than to me (for the ones that seems not to grasp the idea of what this project intends to be).

    Some of you seem to be very convinced that backward compatibility is not achievable or realistic. Perhaps the problem is that you are convinced that we need platform independence.

    I see this main "problem": There are two views:
    1) The ones who priorize backward compatibility.
    2) The ones who priorize platform independence.

    They are irreconcilable views/approach.
    It is true that if you want platform independence you won't have backward compatibility.
    And it is also true that it you want backward compatibility you won't have platform independence.

    Since a project like this should aim to join as many people as possible, and specially the ones that can contribute or has the knowledge (Olaf...), I think we should discuss this subject first.
    If we end up agreeing that platform independence is a must, then OK, this project/suggestion has no point, go and use RC6 and wait for Olaf to finish his (current) project.

    If we finally could agree that backward compatibility is a much more desirable and needed feature, then we could continue to another step.

    If we (the ones that opt for backward compatibility) cannot finally convince the ones of platform independence (Olaf, DreamMannor [SearchingDataOnly], peterst...), this project could still go on, but we would be fewer and it is not what I would like (we will need as many people as possible, as I already said. Specially the capable ones).

    The further is mainly intended for Olaf.
    First words: I'm not trying to attack you or your RC6 project, not at all, in any way.
    I have very much respect for you and your capacity.
    I also know by experience that you are very difficult to convince of something.
    And since you already worked like 10 years on RichClient, it seems to be almost a lost cause, but I have to try.

    Some years ego it seemed like the end users could be switching to Linux with time, and that Windows use would be gradually decreasing. But that didn't happen to date, and it does not seem that it will happen in the foreseeable future. Nobody knows for sure, but the world does not seem to be going that path.

    Looking at the reality, today, Linux is used only on web servers.
    So I don't see a point for most VB6 programmers to be interested in programming web-servers apps. And those apps don't even need a GUI (most of the times).
    Then, I don't see a gaing carrying VB6 apps to Linux (slow down Olaf, I know you.).

    Cross-platform to Mac?
    In a fantasy word I would like to have crooss-platform to everything.
    But that's not the real world that I see.

    Cross-platform to Android?
    That would make more sense IMO. Everybody use cells now.
    But cells are an entirely different thing. Mainly beccause they have small screens and also because the user interaction is with the fingers.

    So, it could be nice and desirable to be able to write Android apps, butg they wouln't be the same apps that we have in VB6 now. They will need to be written from scratch, with other controls, other consideration, other GUIs, other APIs, Etc.

    Then, even when desirable in some future, it would not be the first goal of theis VB6 replacement.
    And even less if because of that (requirement) the main project is delayed.

    So, no. No cross platform, at least in the first version. That's my opinion.

    64-bits support.
    Of course we will want 64-bits support at some point. But not in the first version.
    Once we have the 32-bits version, we can upgrade it to 64-bits. But not from the beginning.
    And it is not a strong need currently. Desirable in a future version? Of course.
    But not to delay the project because we want everything from the first version.

    There are some problems that seem to be more needed for VB6 already today, like the twips-per-pixel rounding.

    About third party components not working on 64-bits:
    As I said 64-bits is not in the first version goal.
    But when we have this problem in the future, simply: if you use old third party controls, stick to 32-bits compilations.
    For the ones that want to make 64-bits apps, use Krool controls and other controls with source code that can have migrated to 64-bits.
    And a new ecosystem of vendors can develop.
    Not every ascient app that have been working for 20 years needs to be moved to 64-bits, 32-bits works fine.

    Ok, I'll finish it here.

  5. #45

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    Re: Is the VB6 community capable to grab the bull by its horns?

    Backward compatibility is the key of success, otherwise it will be another Basic language that is used by 5 guys.

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    Re: Is the VB6 community capable to grab the bull by its horns?

    Quote Originally Posted by dz32 View Post
    Also they ripped most of the code from the Office product team.
    Never happened. In fact, the opposite is true.

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    Re: Is the VB6 community capable to grab the bull by its horns?

    IMO, there is only one thing that the VB community can help Olaf and TwinBasic, that is, GUI components (this work is not difficult, but extremely time-consuming). Since Eduardo hopes to have a detailed work list, I'll simply list a schedule:

    (1) Rewrite Krool's Common Controls with RC6 (I can write one or two controls as examples)
    (2) Rewrite Krool's VBFlexGrid with RC6 (I can provide some help)
    (3) When the TwinBasic compiler is released, use pure RC6 components to test TwinBasic
    (4) Test TwinBasic and RC6 on Linux
    (5) Develop a "Project-Importers" to convert the old VB6-Projects into pure RC6 projects
    (5) Develop a new RC6 component library based on XML
    (6) Rewrite the main .NET component library with RC6 (this work is optional, just to attract more people to use New Compiler and New IDE)

    After the above work is completed, create NewBasic-AppStore. Develop brand new apps (Desk-Apps, Web-Apps, Mobile-Apps) with new IDE, new IDE and new component libs. These apps should be paid, closed source (or open source). 70-80% of the revenue of these apps goes to the app-authors, and 20-30% belongs to NewBasic-AppStore. Then NewBasic-AppStore will distribute the income proportionally (or according to certain rules) to the developers and maintainers of RC6, New Compiler and New IDE (such as Olaf and TwinBasic).

    Only by using pure RC6, New Compiler and New IDE to develop several heavyweight and well-known apps or games, can it attract more developers (especially young people) to use the cross-platform 64-bit NewBasic (RC6, New Compiler and New IDE).

    At present, most(almost all) of the features of .NET apps can be realized by using VB6+RC6, so it is completely possible to develop several heavyweight applications using New Compiler, New IDE and RC6.
    Last edited by SearchingDataOnly; Jan 20th, 2021 at 11:34 PM.

  8. #48

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    Re: Is the VB6 community capable to grab the bull by its horns?

    I'm expecting some discussion and a debate to defend one of the two positions already stated:

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo- View Post
    I see this main "problem": There are two views:
    1) The ones who priorize backward compatibility.
    2) The ones who priorize platform independence.
    These seem to be two very separate groups with two antagonic views.
    I already made my points on that post #44 (in favor of backward compatibility).

    I would desire that one group could convince the other, but with argumentation and reasoning.

    Saying what the community should do assuming one of the positions before we agree on only one of the positions, I think is pointless at this stage.

  9. #49
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    Re: Is the VB6 community capable to grab the bull by its horns?

    To Eduardo:
    If you use RC6 to rewrite your PrintPrevew and TabControl, the amount of source code will be reduced to 10-20% of the original.

    Why is VB6 so powerful (almost able to implement all features of all .NET desktop programs), but there are fewer and fewer people using VB6? Because no company or team will take huge risks and invest a lot of resources into a language that is no longer supported by the original company.(Not supporting 64-bit is the consequence of being abandoned)

    If a new programming language cannot produce a large number of new commercial applications (or educational applications, or scientific applications), then this language will not have any vitality. The best way to push a programming language forward is to use it a lot and use it to develop a lot of valuable apps.

    Why do we need cross-platform? Because we don't want to put all the eggs in one basket. 64-bit and cross-platform are the guarantee and promise for the future of VB6 developers.

    In most cases, I do not need to use 64-bit and cross-platform. However, if NewBasic does not have 64-bit and cross-platform capabilities (or promises), then I will not use NewBasic to develop any new applications.
    Last edited by SearchingDataOnly; Jan 20th, 2021 at 11:15 PM.

  10. #50

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    Re: Is the VB6 community capable to grab the bull by its horns?

    Quote Originally Posted by SearchingDataOnly View Post
    Why do we need cross-platform? Because we don't want to put all the eggs in one basket.
    I would agree if we were talking about 10%-20% more work.
    But we are talking of 300% more work, and the main problem: to abandon backward compatibility.

    Also, the other baskets are tiny, insignificant in the market. Only Andoid makes sense, but please refer to my post #44 where I already discused that in detail.

    And as I already said in that post, it seems that Windows will be still used mainstream in PCs in the foreseeable future.

    Of course there is always a risk. But it seems to me the best bet and the best choice as the things are and seems today.

    Nobody uses Linux. I don't want to repeat myself, but it is for web-servers. Please read that post.

  11. #51
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    Re: Is the VB6 community capable to grab the bull by its horns?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo- View Post
    I would agree if we were talking about 10%-20% more work.
    But we are talking of 300% more work, and the main problem: to abandon backward compatibility.
    No, this is completely wrong.
    We are talking about significantly less work, when the IDE would be written, based on the RC6 (and the already existing Widgets).

    Furthermore, 100% (backward-)compatibility is already given via full support for *.bas and *.cls at the compiler-level.

    What remains, are Forms and Controls.
    And since both, Forms and Controls are COM-Classes -
    a compiler which supports *.cls in a 100% compatible way, can "mimick" the old Form- and Control-Base interfaces to 100%
    (in a normal Class-Definition, which is - as said - to 100% compatible to what we are allowed to write into a VB6-Class today).

    I can write you a Cairo-Widget-(Class), which is 100% behaviour- and calling-compatible to a VB.ComandButton.
    (it can have an absolutely identical COM-interface, and can throw absolutely identical COM-Events, etc.).

    And that means, that a "hosting, old Form-Class" will not have to change a single Line with regards to its internal "Button-Code",
    or "Button-EventHandler-Code" ... that Form-Code (when we exchange a normal VBButton with a Widget-Button-Object) can remain absolutely identical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo- View Post
    Also, the other baskets are tiny, insignificant in the market. Only Andoid makes sense, but please refer to my post #44 where I already discused that in detail.
    And as I already said in that post, it seems that Windows will be still used mainstream in PCs in the foreseeable future.
    You're missing the fact, that "the Web takes over, more and more...".
    Most iPhone and Android-Apps require Online-Connections (https-requests, push-service bindings), to work correctly.

    The large VB6-legacy App in the company I work for, already talks (also via https) to about a dozen different Online-Services in the meantime.
    In addition, we merge more and more Browser-Control-based parts into the old VB6-App - and also host our own online-services and WebAPIs.

    And behind all these WebAPIs at the serverside works an "implementing programming-language".
    And I'd like it very much, when we could avoid an MS-OS (MS-IIS+asp+COM-Dlls to get VB6-support) at the serverside.
    Linux-based Host-machines are much cheaper to rent (but would then require Python, PHP, JavaScript for serverside implementations,
    unless we develop a platform-independent VB6).

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo- View Post
    Nobody uses Linux. I don't want to repeat myself, but it is for web-servers.
    This is so utterly wrong...
    Man, Linux runs "the world" in the meantime - it works underneath each Android-Device -
    and nearly every online- or cloud-service is based on it.

    I take it, that you never developed an App, which required your own serverside "WebAPI"-implementation -
    but this could be an eye-opener for you.

    Olaf
    Last edited by Schmidt; Jan 21st, 2021 at 02:21 AM.

  12. #52

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    Re: Is the VB6 community capable to grab the bull by its horns?

    If someone wanted to develop web apps, they won't use VB6, nor any obscure Basic tool out there.
    They would use what everybody uses: HTML5, PHP, MySql, JavaScrip or any of the many new platforms available today that ease the developing work.

    I didn't miss any point, I was talking about something else.
    And for making calls to servers from VB6 we already have HTTPRequest and other tools.
    And I know that Android is based on Linux, but it is not "just Linux". I cannot explain the story from Adam and Eve to make a point.
    Anyway, if you read thoroughly, I didn't suggest to make it for Android (at least not in the first version), but what I said was that that it could make sense at some point to consider that (or something like that).

    And if you are not willing to discuss things honestly and rationally, nobody forces anybody to contribute with anything. So, if you are not going to come to talk in a respectful, rational and frienly manner, then do not come.

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    Re: Is the VB6 community capable to grab the bull by its horns?

    IMO, in the process of learning and using RC6, you will unknowingly learn HTML5 and JavaScript, and you will also learn to solve problems in a more elegant and clever way. After you learn and use RC6, you will find that VB6 can do far beyond your imagination. This is why I decided to make Basic and JavaScript my future research direction and focus.

  14. #54
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    Re: Is the VB6 community capable to grab the bull by its horns?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo- View Post
    If someone wanted to develop web apps, they won't use VB6,
    You do not know, what you're talking about.
    We do this "all the time" currently (but have to rent a twice as expensive Win-OS-Hostmachine, to be able to).
    The "higher rent" is worthwhile nevertheless, because we saved a whole lot of development-time, by not using PHP, Python or Javascript at the serverside.
    Instead we profit from all the RAD-features of the VB6-IDE,
    can implement our DB-Layer by using wellbehaving and wellknown ADO- or RC5/6 Classes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo- View Post
    They would use what everybody uses: HTML5, PHP, MySql, JavaScrip or any of the many new platforms available today that ease the developing work.
    As said, please learn a bit more about the topic, before you use it in an argumentation.
    For example "HTML5" has nothing to do with "serverside WebAPI-implementations".

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo- View Post
    And for making calls to servers from VB6 we already have HTTPRequest and other tools.
    I was not talking about clientside-initiated calls to the serverside...
    I was talking about implementing ones own serverside code (which in a bigger web-app is quite substantial) -
    with a nice, well-understood and Class-supporting language, compatible to VB6 - on e.g. a Linux-Hostmachine.

    Serverside WebAPI-implementation is, what's part of the daily workload (when you develop a modern LOB-application).
    And I'd like to use a VB6-successor on both ends (e.g. Windows-Desktop-Client- and Linux-based Server).

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo- View Post
    what I said was that that it could make sense at some point to consider that (or something like that).
    And what I said was, that it makes sense immediately (judging from my daily workload here).

    And make no mistake, a new IDE which was developed based on the Win32-API (burning several man-years until working properly) -
    will never be ported to a different platform.

    It will forever be glued to the Windows-platform, not usable on e.g. a Linux-machine, for debugging VB7-based serverside code on that host).

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo- View Post
    And if you are not willing to discuss things honestly
    Come on now ... either bring citations where you think I was dishonest, or keep such comments to yourself.

    Olaf

  15. #55

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    Re: Is the VB6 community capable to grab the bull by its horns?

    Quote Originally Posted by SearchingDataOnly View Post
    IMO, in the process of learning and using RC6, you will unknowingly learn HTML5 and JavaScript, and you will also learn to solve problems in a more elegant and clever way. After you learn and use RC6, you will find that VB6 can do far beyond your imagination. This is why I decided to make Basic and JavaScript my future research direction and focus.
    I will never use RC6, RC7, or RC1500. Please stop posting about RC6, this thead is absolutely not about that. I don't want it, I don't need it, I don't like it and I don't want to learn anything about it. Just like .NET.

    Good bye.

    PS: I would prefer .NET over RC6 if I was forced to choose between these two.

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    Re: Is the VB6 community capable to grab the bull by its horns?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo- View Post
    I will never use RC6, RC7, or RC1500. Please stop posting about RC6, this thead is absolutely not about that. I don't want it, I don't need it, I don't like it and I don't want to learn anything about it. Just like .NET.

    Good bye.

    PS: I would prefer .NET over RC6 if I was forced to choose between these two.
    I respect your choice, but I also want to point out that you will never be able to make your contribution to the development of VB6. When you learn any other language, you can't avoid HTML5 and JavaScript. (In a sense, when I was talking about RC5/RC6, in fact, I was talking about HTML5 and JavaScript, and I was also talking about how to reduce development workload)

    Good Bye.
    Last edited by SearchingDataOnly; Jan 21st, 2021 at 03:50 AM.

  17. #57
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    Re: Is the VB6 community capable to grab the bull by its horns?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo- View Post
    Please stop posting about RC6, this thead is absolutely not about that.
    It is ... because any IDE and compiler-replacement will need new Runtime-Classes and -Functions.

    You can of course decide, to develop all these Classes (again) from scratch (good luck, add another few years to the timeline) -
    or use existing ones from RC6, which already implement platform-independent Drawing- and GUI-Bindings.

    Olaf

  18. #58
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    Re: Is the VB6 community capable to grab the bull by its horns?

    Well this got out of hand fast
    Treeview with NodeAdded/NodesRemoved events | BlinkLabel control | Calculate Permutations | Object Enums | ComboBox with centered items | .Net Internals article(not mine) | Wizard Control | Understanding Multi-Threading | Simple file compression | Demon Arena


    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. -jmcilhinney

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    Re: Is the VB6 community capable to grab the bull by its horns?

    I guess we should have been done this 5 years before? or at least 10 years before I think. But we didn't, And the more we wait, the worse the scenarios become. Anyhow, on the other side of the coin, I would say that everyone learned a lot through this, so now we are in a better position than 10 years before we were.

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    Re: Is the VB6 community capable to grab the bull by its horns?

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    Well this got out of hand fast
    Which is a shock, these threads trying to develop a new VB6 never normally devolve into petty bickering and everyone having different priorities and ideas that can't be reconciled.

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    Re: Is the VB6 community capable to grab the bull by its horns?

    Why is there no open source project for VB6?If vb7 IDE open source and free, we develop together, each person contributed part of the function, it is estimated that half a year can be successful.
    we need create a vb7 ide github project

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    Re: Is the VB6 community capable to grab the bull by its horns?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo- View Post
    Looking at the reality, today, Linux is used only on web servers.
    So I don't see a point for most VB6 programmers to be interested in programming web-servers apps. And those apps don't even need a GUI (most of the times).
    Then, I don't see a gaing carrying VB6 apps to Linux (slow down Olaf, I know you.).
    That's not true, but it IS very telling. Why isn't Linux on every desktop? I would say it is two things:

    1) Harder to install.
    2) Less software.

    The first is solvable, and may have already been solved for all I know. The second one is either the chicken or the egg: If there is software written for the OS, then people will be more likely to use the OS. If more people are using the OS then people are more likely to write software for the OS.

    People write software for the most popular platform, and the most popular platform is the most popular because of the software it runs.
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    Re: Is the VB6 community capable to grab the bull by its horns?

    Quote Originally Posted by SearchingDataOnly View Post
    Why is VB6 so powerful (almost able to implement all features of all .NET desktop programs), but there are fewer and fewer people using VB6?
    Really? Doesn't the question contain the answer? If VB6 is almost as powerful as some other language, then that would mean that it is NOT as powerful as that other language, so why wouldn't people use the other language? The obvious answer is only ease of use, but the ease of use of a language largely comes down to the IDE. Take away the drag and drop ability to create forms and what real value does VB6 offer? The IDE is a pretty critical part of the appeal of any language, and the VB6 IDE is being left further and further behind.
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    Re: Is the VB6 community capable to grab the bull by its horns?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Really? Doesn't the question contain the answer? If VB6 is almost as powerful as some other language, then that would mean that it is NOT as powerful as that other language, so why wouldn't people use the other language? The obvious answer is only ease of use, but the ease of use of a language largely comes down to the IDE. Take away the drag and drop ability to create forms and what real value does VB6 offer? The IDE is a pretty critical part of the appeal of any language, and the VB6 IDE is being left further and further behind.
    We all know that it's very difficult to develop a new language and a new IDE. But we only need a small library RC6 (its size is only a few megabytes), and we can greatly enhance the features of VB6. I once said:
    VB6 + RC5 = VB6.5
    VB6 + RC6 = VB7

    IMO, VB6 is almost as powerful as .NET in Windows desktop software development, so VB6.5 or VB7 is as powerful as .NET. VB8 (the new compiler and new IDE of Olaf or TwinBasic) may be more powerful than .NET, at least more convenient.

    In fact, it's meaningless to compare whether one language is stronger than another. What makes sense is whether this language can develop valuable software more efficiently and quickly. I can use VB6+RC5/RC6 to develop any desktop software that .NET can develop, so I think VB6 is as powerful as .NET. For those who are proficient in RC5/RC6 and at the same time proficient in JavaScript, they can develop any Web-Apps that .NET can develop. I can't do this yet, but I'm trying to achieve this goal.

    I know that you have never used RC5/RC6, so you will not believe that there is such a magical VB6 framework in the world.
    Last edited by SearchingDataOnly; Jan 21st, 2021 at 11:42 AM.

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    Re: Is the VB6 community capable to grab the bull by its horns?

    So, we have three possible projects, Olaf's, TwinBasic and RADBasic and now we want another? Let's face it. This group has the skills but will NEVER get together to create something as a team. The only way something will be done is on the back of a lone developer (Olaf, RADBasic) or a small two or three man team (TwinBasic) where they are able to follow a requirement and ignore the conflicting desires of passionate and focussed devs.

    RADBasic aims to provide backward compatibility which is essential for the product to be acceptable to those companies using VB6 already, that is the clear revenue stream. That approach potentially keeps all our programs alive.

    For those that want more and require VB6 to have a future for new development on multiple platforms then you either build that in from scratch as Olaf desires to do or you hope for step-by step drip feed delivery from RADBasic and TwinBasic assuming these projects get off the ground.

    For this forum to build two new FOSS VB6+ products with such competing aims would be to fatally dilute the effort and reduce the monetary support that should potentially go to TwinB and RADB, possibly killing all four in the process.

    Look, new projects and new products are in the offing, they are happening now! Give them your support.

    I'd have been happy to give Olaf my support in the past but I don't see anything that makes me feel his offering is any more than a project from a gifted amateur (I know he is more than that). The problem is his documentation is nearly non-existent, the site is old and I have lost confidence in Olaf's ability to deliver more than he has already - even though there may be a lot of work going on behind the scenes, I don't see it.

    I believe these two new projects are what we need to focus our help toward. Eduardo, I think you are ten years too late. IF you had started five years ago then perhaps we'd be close to something usable but the reason this forum has failed to deliver is precisely because it is THIS forum that is trying to do so. You cannot easily reconcile the two approaches and start from scratch.

  26. #66
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    Re: Is the VB6 community capable to grab the bull by its horns?

    for me VB6 >>> VB6+RC#

    if Im forced to use RC# for anything I rather use C#, Java, Python or something else.

    so if VB6RC# is the only alternatives to VB6 I will stick with VB6 and if the future would force me to abandon VB6 I will instead work with something else. I have a bit of knowledge of different languages, especially Java.

    for me I hope TwinBasic can be an "additional tool" that I can use alongside VB6. if not, I will keep doing what Im doing. but no way in hell I will install or use RC#

    also nobody replied to the post I did:
    http://sandsprite.com/vb-reversing/

    I think this the site to start if theres any decisions to make a new VB
    Last edited by baka; Jan 21st, 2021 at 12:13 PM.

  27. #67
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    Re: Is the VB6 community capable to grab the bull by its horns?

    Quote Originally Posted by baka View Post
    for me VB6 >>> VB6+RC#
    for me 1 >>> 1 + 100

    Let us all respect our choices.

    In fact, most people here don't need a NewBasic. The developers of NewBasic should focus more on attracting young people.

  28. #68

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    Re: Is the VB6 community capable to grab the bull by its horns?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    That's not true
    What part "is not true"?
    In the rest of your post you seem to be agreeing.

    If you are saying that Linux is not only used on web servers, OK, there are a few desktop users, I know. I was talking in general. Yes, there may be 1%, 2% at most of end users using Linux.

  29. #69

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    Re: Is the VB6 community capable to grab the bull by its horns?

    @yereverluvinuncleber
    Good points.

    @baka
    I visited the links you posted, they seem very interesting.
    Of course if this "porject" ever starts we can have valuable information there.

    Other coments:
    For the ones that say it is too late, yes, I also feel so.
    But if we never start, it will be even later as time goes on.
    One other reason why it may be too late is what yereverluvinuncleber said:

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    For this forum to build two new FOSS VB6+ products with such competing aims would be to fatally dilute the effort and reduce the monetary support that should potentially go to TwinB and RADB, possibly killing all four in the process.
    About the key of sucess of any VB6 replacement I have no doubs, and already said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo- View Post
    Backward compatibility is the key of success, otherwise it will be another Basic language that is used by 5 guys.
    As a side note (and here it starts the war again), Olaf now says that his project will acchieve backward compatibility (at some point). After he stated many times that he does not care about it or that that was not a goal (in some way or another, I'm not citing exact words).

    I could forecast that his "RCBasic" will not have many more user than what RC6 has now (if he ever finishes it, may be in 2040).

    Changing the subject:
    Yes, these two groups seem to be irreconcilable. Olaf is impossible, is a lost cause to try to discuss with him anything. Because he will never change his mind, he will use any argument (even personal attacks) to defend his dessisions and views no mater if they were wrong, unwise or inconvenient. And doing so he divides the community instead of trying to join it.

    So, considering all this, the only possibility is that this alleged "project" should be carried on (in the case we ever do something) by the ones that are already convinced that backward compatibility is the priority and forget about the ones that want cross-platform compilability.

    If I ever open another thread about this "project", I think I'll will put "for the ones that want backward compatibilty" in the subject.

    They didn't provide any valid argument in favor of cross-platform compilability. Because there aren't, of course.

    Just a side note: if after the first version in a future version we could make as a different project option "New project of Linux Server-App" with a type of app that doesn't need a GUI or a very basic one, that would be desirable. But not as the first goal.
    This is not what urges the community right now. It would delay the project for something now uninportant.
    And that is what Olaf is doing. OK, his life, his decisions. But don't try the impose or sell that view to others.
    (cheerleaders refrain from replying).

    Conclussion of the thread: we don't reach now a critical mass of developers.

  30. #70
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    Re: Is the VB6 community capable to grab the bull by its horns?

    Eduardo, I think you are being too critical of Olaf's work, you don't shirk a man's achievements just because you don't like him personally. If you are expecting programmers to all have empathic and pleasant personalities then you clearly haven't met many of them.

    I think RC6 has something rather good going for it, and if as searchdataonly has suggested, Krool's controls could be rewritten using it, it might be a very useful step to make VB6 a little more platform-independent in the future, it would be compatible with Olaf's future delivery of his magnus opus, would introduce more VB6 devs to the possibilities of using RC6 and would be a step toward integrating VB6 and RC6 that would also not compromise the usage of TwinBasic nor RadBasic in the medium term. It is rather a good idea that might put more 'legs' onto RC6 in the short term and for Krool's code in the future.

    It would have no negative effect on VB6 either.

  31. #71

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    Re: Is the VB6 community capable to grab the bull by its horns?

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    Eduardo, I think you are being too critical of Olaf's work, you don't shirk a man's achievements just because you don't like him personally. If you are expecting programmers to all have empathic and pleasant personalities then you clearly haven't met many of them.
    In real life not many, a few. I didn't meet Olaf in real life either.

    On forums and newsgroups yes. many.
    Most of them are nice, or at least people that you can discuss things normally.
    About forum members "difficult", there are some, not many.
    I would not say that I consider myself always very friendly to express things either.

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    If you are expecting programmers to all have empathic and pleasant personalities...
    Unfortunately that is required for people to agree to do something togheter. If they are not able to talk and try to reach common point of agreement because their "personality", then try to change the personality of something, but it is required.
    If one person wants to impose some idea, because it is his idea, there is no possibility.

    We could cede in many things, but not in the one that we think is "a must", a main requirement for the project to have have sucess: and I'm talking of backward compatibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    I think RC6 has something rather good going for it, and if as searchdataonly has suggested, Krool's controls could be rewritten using it, it might be a very useful step to make VB6 a little more platform-independent in the future
    Yes, just "a little more". No API or subclassing in the code would work.

    Platform-independent, as I tried to explain many times, if not needed. It has no point.

    If a future VB6 replacement comes out some day, and it supports other OS, they should be different type of projects. When you start a project from the menu you get a in the already existen dialog of Standard-Exe, ActiveX-UserControl some other options like Android-App, Linux-server Script.
    They would use another compiler with differrent options and properties. The only share thing would be the language syntax and some common dlls in the developemnt machine, that has the functions that are common to all.
    The App object will be different, the Printer object would probably not exist in a Linux-server project, the Android controls different.

    It would be almost like joining several tools in one IDE, just using the same common language syntax.

    For cross-platform compilation capability of the same project use Java or .NET, they never had much success with cross-platform projects because this is the wrong appoach.

    OSs are too diffferent and developers need to use APIs for too many things.

  32. #72

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    Re: Is the VB6 community capable to grab the bull by its horns?

    This post is rather off topic.
    My considerations of that proposal of converting Krool controls to RC6:

    I don't think that is possible. Krool controls rely for most controls on Windows. They are created by Windows and Krool what did was to wrap the calls and to make them awailabe with an interface to VB6, mostly copying the same interface of VB6 own controls, so they are a replacement.

    But if you want to make that without Windows, his code will me mostly useless.

    Better use my interface replicator to start and write the code from scratch.

    Ahh, but RC6 won't have UserControls... then move the code to a class module and remove all code related to persistence: InitProperties, ReadProperties, WriteProperties and PropertyChange.

    Perhaps from time to time you could grasp some lines from Krool controls, but I believe not much.
    Good luck, this will be a huge work.

  33. #73
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    Re: Is the VB6 community capable to grab the bull by its horns?

    I believe the trick is on point here.
    the first thing should be to reverse-engineer one .dll that VB6 depends on, such as MSVBVM60 (https://github.com/cocus/openmsvbvm/...ter/openmsvbvm)
    and focus on that alone, create a replacement that can emulate MSVBVM60 100%
    after that, take another piece, and do the same, and bit by bit you recreate VB6.

    the important question is, what do we want to replace and do we need to replace everything? what need to be replaced to be able to compile a 64bit version, or what need to be replaced to be able to use the newer C2.exe/Link.exe from newer versions, if possible.
    so, for me its not a question to replace VB6, but to be able to build a project with a newer compiler and if 64bit is possible, everything else can be as it was.

    looking at http://sandsprite.com/tools.php it seems theres more, and the people behind the site seems to have tons of knowledge. maybe a way to make contact and see if they are still there and if theres interest in a cooperation?

    I believe, the trick could do it, but the question is, how to motivate and help him, support him? how?
    theres a lot of questions and usually it takes a strong leader personality to push things forward.

  34. #74

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    Re: Is the VB6 community capable to grab the bull by its horns?

    We need a crazy philanthropist millonaire that wants to fund this project.

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    Re: Is the VB6 community capable to grab the bull by its horns?


  36. #76

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    Re: Is the VB6 community capable to grab the bull by its horns?

    Quote Originally Posted by jpbro View Post
    You never know... maybe for the old good times.

  37. #77
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    Re: Is the VB6 community capable to grab the bull by its horns?

    Quote Originally Posted by jpbro View Post
    Looks like he did it in the old vb ...

  38. #78
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    Re: Is the VB6 community capable to grab the bull by its horns?

    Quote Originally Posted by baka View Post
    looking at http://sandsprite.com/tools.php it seems theres more, and the people behind the site seems to have tons of knowledge. maybe a way to make contact and see if they are still there and if theres interest in a cooperation?
    Heh. . . The guy who operates this site has already replied in this thread in post #42 so everyone seems aboard listening :-))

    cheers,
    </wqw>

  39. #79
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    Re: Is the VB6 community capable to grab the bull by its horns?

    Reply to a private message:

    Yes, I can tell you with certainty that it's completely feasible to rewrite Krool's Common Controls with RC6, and can 100% realize all the features and exactly the same interfaces of Krool's Common Controls. I'm very busy this year. I don’t know if I can have free time to complete this work this year, but next year I may be able to schedule this task into my work plan.

    If others could take on this work this year, I'll definitely take time to participate.

  40. #80
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    Re: Is the VB6 community capable to grab the bull by its horns?

    Quote Originally Posted by baka View Post
    looking at http://sandsprite.com/tools.php it seems theres more, and the people behind the site seems to have tons of knowledge. maybe a way to make contact and see if they are still there and if theres interest in a cooperation?
    There was a long long time where I personally wanted to be able to recreate vb6. I started working on components and developing the specialized skills. What i started with was:

    - needed a good code editor component, started exploring the open source scintinilla. You have to know how one works and what is required before you can write your own, maybe this one is good enough anyway once you learn it completely. I ended up adopting Stewarts Scivb ocx wrapper for it and have used that as a basis for several IDEs since.

    https://github.com/dzzie/scivb2

    - next I wanted to start developing skills integrating a debugger into the code editor and controlling program flow. At the time I really wanted a script control with debugging support for some of my tooling. First I integrated a debugger for ScriptBasic (as it was the most approachable one I found from a coding standpoint)

    https://github.com/dzzie/ScriptBasic_Control
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQMv...ViA3AL4FJW8Yzw

    Latter I integrated a debugger for the duktape js engine

    http://sandsprite.com/tools.php?id=23
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSr1-OugQ1M

    Finally I integrated it with a debugger for vb6 pcode

    http://sandsprite.com/vbdec/
    Pcode Playlist https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p08y...7WpYn3gPQKSfYO

    Years ago I also wrote a basic native debugger in vb6

    standalone: http://sandsprite.com/openSource.php?id=77
    activeX lib: http://sandsprite.com/tools.php?id=22

    I have experimented with writing source syntax parsers for auto
    code deobsfuscation:

    http://sandsprite.com/blogs/images/refactor.png

    Written PE file format parsing libraries: https://github.com/dzzie/libs/tree/master/pe_lib2

    I have mucked around a tiny amount inside the Lazarus IDE to see how
    it was built and contributed a couple patches.

    ...I am still no where near where I could possibly write a professional
    replacement for vb6. When i say its a herculean task its not uninformed speculation

    Specialties where developers could spend an entire career:
    - IDE code editor components, drag and drop form creation, debugger integration etc
    - syntax code parsing and compiler technologies, including edit and continue
    - debugger design which bridges the two above
    - pe file format and construction is probably another group outside of the core compiler
    - all the code for runtime classes and ocx type components.

    Ultimately I got old and gave up. You can only be full of piss and vinegar for so long before it exhausts you and wears you out. I ended up with tendonitis in both arms and had to slow down no choice.

    I still love vb6 and use it literally everyday, but honestly it does everything I want. If there is something it cant do, I just write or rip a library for it. Like x64 math: https://github.com/dzzie/libs/tree/master/vb6_utypes

    For me, the best use of my time is not recreating the wheel which still functions perfectly, but to expand on what I can do with it. Learn C and asm and how to integrate with it. Expand your library base. Learn how to integrate with other languages like python, Java, .NET, Delphi, GO. Learn what vb6 truly is deep down and how to play with it like an orchestra. Know its strengths and weaknesses and stay within its strengths. Extend the IDE through Add-ins: https://www.vbforums.com/showthread....-Addin-for-vb6 or even hack in new features through reversing: https://github.com/dzzie/addins/tree/master/hex_tooltip

    I learned new functions in vb6 I didnt even know about after using it for 20 years when i started working with its pcode at a low level.

    Time and energy in life is limited. Pick your battles.

    I already dislike Win10. I am not far from using linux as my main OS, in which case I would probably use XP as my main desktop inside a VM or something so VB6 would always work. I also donate to reactOS and am hopeful for that project some day.
    Last edited by dz32; Jan 22nd, 2021 at 09:45 AM.

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