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Thread: TwinBasic

  1. #841
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: TwinBasic

    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post
    Really? You sure about that? Count me the number of ways you can concatenate strings in VB.NET ....

    -tg
    The + and & operators are not the same, they cannot be used interchangeably. You cannot add two numbers using the & operator. Having two operators that are aliases for each other is just insane and unnecessary bloat.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

  2. #842
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    Re: TwinBasic

    Isn't part of the problem is that there is no 'standard' for the Basic language? C/C++ are ISO standard(s), Fortran has it's standard. But what's Basic? I could 'invent' a new language and call it say zBasic and it could look quite different to existing versions of 'Basic' but still be called 'Basic'. I first came across this issue when I wrote Basic applications for mini-computers in the 1970's/80' and each version was different in some way. I don't program in Basic any more, but isn't it time that 'Basic' became a standard?
    All advice is offered in good faith only. You are ultimately responsible for the effects of your programs and the integrity of the machines they run on. Anything I post, code snippets, advice, etc is licensed as Public Domain https://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/

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  3. #843
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    Re: TwinBasic

    Quote Originally Posted by 2kaud View Post
    Isn't part of the problem is that there is no 'standard' for the Basic language? C/C++ are ISO standard(s), Fortran has it's standard. But what's Basic? I could 'invent' a new language and call it say zBasic and it could look quite different to existing versions of 'Basic' but still be called 'Basic'. I first came across this issue when I wrote Basic applications for mini-computers in the 1970's/80' and each version was different in some way. I don't program in Basic any more, but isn't it time that 'Basic' became a standard?
    I am really for and against that idea, I proposed it earlier, my suggestion was a ECMA-style group that decided on the changes, direction for the language. However, given the characters here and the levels of opposition to almost anything proposed it might be a slanging match.

    However, with Wayne seemingly running the show as an intelligent, benign and benevolent dictator (no slur or criticism intended) we are probably in a good place, ie. he listens, he knows his stuff but ultimately we don't have much of a choice. It works.

    With a properly constituted group - it requires recognition to work, I mean if we constituted a group, no-one has to listen, anyone could still do what they wanted. The "BASIC advisory board" might be the best we could come up with a voting method to decide things. That is roughly what we are creating here.
    By the power invested in me, all the threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones - no arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign.

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    Re: TwinBasic

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    However, with Wayne seemingly running the show as an intelligent, benign and benevolent dictator (no slur or criticism intended) we are probably in a good place, ie. he listens, he knows his stuff but ultimately we don't have much of a choice. It works.
    I think Uncle Bert has got it right here. We can all have our say, we can even vote, but Wayne decides.

  5. #845
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: TwinBasic

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    However, with Wayne seemingly running the show as an intelligent, benign and benevolent dictator (no slur or criticism intended) we are probably in a good place, ie. he listens, he knows his stuff but ultimately we don't have much of a choice. It works.
    Lets not forget the most important quality of benevolent dictator.....the ability to say no. This would keep it from going off the rails into all kinds of wild and crazy territory. Trying to please everybody never works.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

  6. #846
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: TwinBasic

    Quote Originally Posted by 2kaud View Post
    Isn't part of the problem is that there is no 'standard' for the Basic language? C/C++ are ISO standard(s), Fortran has it's standard. But what's Basic? I could 'invent' a new language and call it say zBasic and it could look quite different to existing versions of 'Basic' but still be called 'Basic'. I first came across this issue when I wrote Basic applications for mini-computers in the 1970's/80' and each version was different in some way. I don't program in Basic any more, but isn't it time that 'Basic' became a standard?
    Forgive me as I might be wrong here, but is it not true that anybody can submit something to be part of an ISO standard? If this is true then it's rather interesting that no one has done it for BASIC as of yet.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

  7. #847
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    Re: TwinBasic

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    Forgive me as I might be wrong here, but is it not true that anybody can submit something to be part of an ISO standard? If this is true then it's rather interesting that no one has done it for BASIC as of yet.
    Yes - it needs to be done via your National Member. See https://isoupdate.com/resources/6-st...-iso-standard/


    Hold the front page! Stop the Presses!!

    There is an ANSI/ISO Basic standard - INCITS/ISO/IEC 10279-1991 (R2005)
    https://www.iso.org/standard/18321.html
    https://webstore.ansi.org/standards/...102791991r2005

    However I don't know how useful these are due to their age. Perhaps those currently involved in Basic development might like to contact the ISO and find out what's happening re revision to the basic standard and how to contribute to its active development.
    All advice is offered in good faith only. You are ultimately responsible for the effects of your programs and the integrity of the machines they run on. Anything I post, code snippets, advice, etc is licensed as Public Domain https://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/

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  8. #848
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: TwinBasic

    Quote Originally Posted by 2kaud View Post
    There is an ANSI/ISO Basic standard - INCITS/ISO/IEC 10279-1991 (R2005)
    https://www.iso.org/standard/18321.html
    Wow. This is the first I've seen of that. You always hear about C standards but never about this. Very interesting indeed.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

  9. #849
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    Re: TwinBasic

    I remember the standardization process for C++. It was about as contentious, though much drier, than the discussion around TwinBasic. Following that came the revision of the C standard in 1999. You need an active process to keep those standards evolving.
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  10. #850
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    Re: TwinBasic

    or revolving in our case.
    By the power invested in me, all the threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones - no arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign.

  11. #851
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    Re: TwinBasic

    The Basic working group is WG8 under SC22 (C is WG14, C++ is WG21). Apparently, it is no longer active. See http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/

    If anyone wants to pursue Basic standardisation, then I suggest in the first instance they contact the Chair of SC22 (which covers all computer languages) for information http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/docs/contacts
    All advice is offered in good faith only. You are ultimately responsible for the effects of your programs and the integrity of the machines they run on. Anything I post, code snippets, advice, etc is licensed as Public Domain https://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/

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  12. #852
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    Re: TwinBasic

    twinBASIC status update:

    twinBASIC update January 2, 2022

    Highlights include a feature to generate missing implementations, minor improvements to the Reference List UX, and some spirited debates.

  13. #853
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    Re: TwinBasic

    Well based on the current state of the votes, it seems the language will remain unpolluted by the addition of aliases for the << and >> operators. So this issue has been resolved.

    I know not everyone wanted this and I know a few people here have grown to hate me during this course of this conversation but I personally enjoyed the discussion. It was very enlightening. I just wish people wouldn't get so emotional. I also want you guys to know that despite your hatred for me, I hold no animosity in my heart towards any of you. I have no hate for baka or Eduardo. I respect you both but it doesn't mean I will just keel over and just agree with everything you say. I apologize if during the course of this I went too far but I do not apologize for my opinions and hopefully we can find a way to peacefully co-exist on these boards.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

  14. #854
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    Re: TwinBasic

    twinBASIC status update:

    twinBASIC update January 9, 2022

    Highlights include error messages that now match VBx, a twinBASIC Discord server, and a teaser about twinBASIC's potential as a VBA replacement.

  15. #855
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    Re: TwinBasic

    I would like to see lambda functions as I did in M2000 Interpreter:
    https://georgekarras.blogspot.com/20...-in-m2000.html

    Each "lambda" function is an object which have two parts: The function and the list of closures.
    We can define closures at the definition stage for lambda, and that will be new or copies of variables of same scope at the definition.

    Also tuple: a=(1,2,3,4) like a=Array(1,2,3,4). The empty tuple: a=(,). One item tuple: a=(1,). We can use #functions like Print a#sum().
    Also cons()
    a=(1,2,3,4,5)
    b=Cons(a, (6,7,8), a)
    Print b

    And car() and cdr()
    a=((1,2), (3,4), (5, 6))
    b=Car(a)
    Print Car(b) ' 1
    Print Car(Car(a)) ' 1
    Print Cdr(Car(Cdr(Cdr(a)))) ' 6

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  17. #857
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    Re: TwinBasic

    So, CAR and CDR is property of LISP?
    I think BASIC must go higher, including these which I propose in previous reply.

  18. #858
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: TwinBasic

    Quote Originally Posted by wqweto View Post
    You have all of these requested features there unlike any BASIC language known to mankind :-))
    The term "prior art" is throw around lot at GitHub. There is such prior art in VB.Net for lambdas.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

  19. #859
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    Re: TwinBasic

    As someone who's been wishing for a vb6 upgrade/replacement for well over a decade (not far off two actually) I really wish discussions about desired new features would just go away.
    Until twinbasic can open all existing vb6 projects it's no more interesting to someone invested in vb6 than any other language.
    I'm contributing to twinbasic, albeit only financially, but I'd prefer if people would leave Wayne to get on with the great job he's doing.
    Once compatibility is achieved that's the time to start adding all the new goodies.

  20. #860
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: TwinBasic

    Quote Originally Posted by vbrad View Post
    As someone who's been wishing for a vb6 upgrade/replacement for well over a decade (not far off two actually) I really wish discussions about desired new features would just go away.
    Until twinbasic can open all existing vb6 projects it's no more interesting to someone invested in vb6 than any other language.
    I'm contributing to twinbasic, albeit only financially, but I'd prefer if people would leave Wayne to get on with the great job he's doing.
    Once compatibility is achieved that's the time to start adding all the new goodies.
    Wayne already ready made it very clear that new features must be considered up front. If it's put off for later, it may be far more difficult to implement them. Here is the post. More specifically he said:-
    Quote Originally Posted by WaynePhillipsEA View Post
    Many will argue that you can add new features later, but I can assure you: it's just not that easy! The codebase for a compiler like twinBASIC is massive and complex; if you don't plan for features up-front at the start, the work to add them later is MUCH more involved (to the point where some new features might not even be possible without re-writing significant parts of the compiler). With tB, a huge amount of effort has gone into designing an efficient and extensible compiler that has the capability to offer any of the features of more modern languages... if and when necessary.
    There is no getting away from this.
    Treeview with NodeAdded/NodesRemoved events | BlinkLabel control | Calculate Permutations | Object Enums | ComboBox with centered items | .Net Internals article(not mine) | Wizard Control | Understanding Multi-Threading | Simple file compression | Demon Arena

    Copy/move files using Windows Shell | I'm not wanted

    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. - jmcilhinney

    The threads I start are Niya and Olaf free zones. No arguing about the benefits of VB6 over .NET here please. Happiness must reign. - yereverluvinuncleber

  21. #861
    Fanatic Member 2kaud's Avatar
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    Re: TwinBasic

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    Wayne already ready made it very clear that new features must be considered up front. If it's put off for later, it may be far more difficult to implement them. Here is the post. More specifically he said:-


    There is no getting away from this.
    As someone who previously has been involved with OS and compiler development, I absolutely agree with this. Time spent on the design is time well spent and will almost certainly be recouped during the coding phase. Major changes to the design once significant coding has been done often requires large amounts of code to be thrown away and re-written - delaying the project beyond the small extra design time that would have been spent.The more complex the project (like TB), the more the need for up-front in-depth design before much production coding is undertaken. Not doing this is, IMO, a recipe for disaster and often helps to explain why some projects get so far and then no further and peter-out.
    All advice is offered in good faith only. You are ultimately responsible for the effects of your programs and the integrity of the machines they run on. Anything I post, code snippets, advice, etc is licensed as Public Domain https://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/

    C++20 Compiler: Microsoft VS2022 (17.0.5)

  22. #862
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    Re: TwinBasic

    twinBASIC status update:

    twinBASIC update January 16,2022

    Highlights include the CompileIf attribute and IsObject function for generics, an experimental package manager, and 10 Guiding Principles of twinBASIC.

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