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Thread: Should i learn VB6?

  1. #121
    Frenzied Member PlausiblyDamp's Avatar
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by quickbbbb View Post
    3 fold increase is in vb6


    .NET will be the same performace in array vs class ?
    Hard to say without knowing exactly what you are meaning, if you are simply talking about using a class to access an array then it is possible that the performance would be very similar. If you are talking about an array of classes or something else then it would all depend.

    If you have an example of what you mean I am happy to try and do some benchmarks.

  2. #122
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    So what are you saying? It takes 15 minutes for the JIT to compile an application when deployed?
    I'm obviously talking about Class-Frameworks (not Applications).

    And then I was using this kind of "larger task" (the resulting binaries of these Class-Frameworks) -
    to compare their "implementations" (VB6/COM-based ones vs C#/.NET-based ones... to point out a few things).

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    It takes 15 minutes to install?
    What are you even talking about here?
    Sigh... as said - I compared deployment-size and "deployment-effects" between larger (Class-)libraries.

    - RC6-framework (1-2sec download-time, installation-time: basically immediate after unzipping)
    - .NET-framework (2-4minutes download-time, installation-time: 8-15min for native recompilation into the GAC, after a Windows-reboot)
    - GTK+ ...GLib/C-based framework (4-8sec download-time, installation-time: basically immediate after unzipping)
    - QT ...C++-based framework (4-8sec download-time, installation-time: basically immediate after unzipping)

    So, VB6+COM is apparently highly efficient for implementing "larger blocks of functionality" (in fast, native-compiled Class-libs).
    It beats even the C- and C++ based frameworks in compiled binary-size (whilst offering roughly the same functionality)

    For me, a language capable to produce these results, deserves at least attention - definitely not ridiculing.

    As said already before ... that (the observed technological efficiency) is the reason I'll try my best, to "keep it alive".
    And no, I'm not the one who thinks "petitions to MS" will help - and I'm also not the one who starts "all these discussion-threads".

    I don't even "hate" .NET (as you try to insinuate) - I just try my best to ignore it (as in: "the opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference").

    Olaf

  3. #123
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Learning VB6 is a very good way of learning the Windows APIs but I feel VB.NET shields a beginner from a lot of what is required. If you really want to know about Windows programming there will always be things that your chosen language will have a problem doing and so a dip into the Windows API will be an eventual requirement. When a language shields you from something you will ultimately need to learn, then it is not necessarily a good thing.

    When I first started in VB6 it was source of great frustration that VB6 could not do this or that without diving into APIs. It took me a while but I began to realise that to extend VB to create a language that could incorporate everything the Win API can do would mean a super dialect of BASIC that would be nothing like actual BASIC. Possibly, this is why VB.NET doesn't actually feel like BASIC, more a .NET tool with partial BASIC syntax.

    In the way that you work with APIs, VB6 is closer to the metal to .NET and if you really want to know about Windows, VB6 is still a very valid choice.

    This is me speaking from a position of relative ignorance but I am relishing the hands-on approach to programming that VB6 requires to do this or that.
    Last edited by yereverluvinuncleber; Jan 26th, 2021 at 08:42 AM.

  4. #124
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmidt View Post
    - .NET-framework (2-4minutes download-time, installation-time: 8-15min for native recompilation into the GAC, after a Windows-reboot)
    Olaf
    What are you talking about here? Does anybody download the .NET framework anymore? It's part of Windows. I just distribute the exe without an installer. I haven't had anybody have a problem with that for years. I suppose that there are plenty of places that are still using something other than Windows 10, but if you happen to be in an area, or work in an industry, where that isn't the case, then the download time is 0s.

    As for the second sentence, I've NEVER seen an 8-15 minute time, not even back when you DID need to download the framework. I'd say that 8-15 seconds is absurd. I don't recall needing a reboot when installing some framework either, though I admit that it was so long ago that I can't really remember. Also, back prior to SSD, a reboot could well take a minute or two, depending on the system.
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  5. #125
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    What are you talking about here?
    Ughh, come on, really...?
    Again, I'm talking about the deployment of the framework (which these days usually happens via Windows-Update).

    When I mention "download-time", then this is directly proportional to "framework-size".
    And the second thing after Win-Update finishes the Download-step of a new package, is installation (I've not even mentioned the time *that* step takes):
    - but after that a reboot is required (when a new .Net-Update came in)
    - and after the PC comes up again after that - you should take a look into the TaskManager yourself...
    .. (GAC-compilation happens for the new installed Framework-Classes, occupying an entire CPU-Core for 8-15 minutes, depending on your CPU-speed)

    And since I've just experienced this on a new to configure AppServer-machine at work just now
    (installing the SSMS 18.8 on that QuadCore-XEON machine)...

    The SSMS-installer did require .NET 4.7.xxxx - which it had (for some reason) to download and install.
    (this was on a Win2016-Server, without any out-standing "Win-Updates").

    So, the installation itself already took a while.
    But what always amazes me with that .NET-App is the startup-time (minutes when cold, and the Server-machine a bit under load) -
    and at least 30seconds for each repetitive startup-attempt (just to show an empty App-View and the Logon-Popup - no DB-Connects involved in the Startup-Phase).


    Olaf

  6. #126
    Lively Member Grant Swinger's Avatar
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Windows Server 2016 has had a long-standing problem with updates taking forever to install. As in all-night in plenty of cases. It's really bad if you're using Windows Update or WSUS. Some places I know of have given up on both of those and download updates from the Microsoft catalog to be applied manually. That seems to work. It's still slow but at least it doesn't fall over and die on you.
    People have been screaming at MS to fix this but all they do is point to Server 2019 and tell you to use it instead. It's obvious by now that they can't or won't fix it.

    I can't comment on the .NET application startup time without seeing both it and the server it runs on. But I will say that I've written plenty of server-based applications and I have never seen startup times like you describe. There seems to be something wrong with the application, the server or both.

  7. #127
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    What are you talking about here? Does anybody download the .NET framework anymore? It's part of Windows.
    Aren't there several versions of the framework? Don't you need the right version you developed for installed?

    I remember trying to run one or two programs on Windows 10 and they wanted to download the .NET framework (some specific version).

  8. #128
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Swinger View Post
    I can't comment on the .NET application startup time without seeing both it and the server it runs on.
    Server is a (lower-power) quad-core xeon (clocking up to 2.4GHz or something, 8GB Ram and SSD-HD) -
    run within a (VMWare-based) HyperVisor in a rack of a larger Online-Provider here in germany -
    accessed via RDP (which already causes a certain "base-load").

    The App in question is the most recent version of MS-SqlServer-Management-Studio (SSMS).

    On a (quite fast) Desktop-8-Core (without larger CPU-load in other Apps) -
    the startup-time here (till logon-prompt) is about 20sec cold - and about 8-10sec warm (when repeating the startup).

    On that Server-machine though, I see the times I've mentioned in the prior posting.

    Olaf

  9. #129
    PowerPoster kfcSmitty's Avatar
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    I think you're getting too anecdotal.

    I just ran my Windows 10 VM on my machine: i7 4790k, 32 gigs of ram and the host is debian. The VM has 8 gigs of ram and 2 cores using VMWare Player.

    I have 4 browser windows open, vscode, ms teams, slack, and OBS open on the host. I have chrome and visual studio open on the VM.

    It took 10.23 seconds to open SQL Server Management Studio (version 18) the first time, 12.11 seconds the second time. Both cold-starts. I had completely shut down the VM and re-opened the same tools.

    These arguments are always stupid though. If you like VB6, go with VB6. If you're looking to make a living off of it, well unless you already have an established client base, using VB in any form will not get you any jobs. It is unfortunate in our world that business people are telling the developers what language to use to accomplish their task.

    Will .NET speed beat VB6? Probably not, but that isn't why .NET is used. Can a developer make something faster in C# that VB6? Absolutely. Can a developer make something faster in VB6 than C#? Absolutely. It all depends on which tool they're most proficient with.

    I guess I don't come into this forum a lot, so maybe the VB6ers are just fed up with people bashing on their language (why would you come into a VB6 forum just to bash it?), but I don't get why this pissing match seems to come up every few months.

    I really never come to this section of the forum as I haven't even touched VB6 in 10+ years, but I got curious when I saw the post that was removed from Chit Chat to see what started it.

  10. #130
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Yeah, it shows up a few times a year. It always starts in the same place: A replacement for VB6. You can identify the threads on the theme because they get to more than one page. Occasionally, some other topic will reach more than one page, which does throw us off. They also can get contentious, but most of the folks in this thread are old hands at it. We pretty much know what each other is going to say, though we do occasionally get a bit defensive. The one common denominator is that we all like to argue, and this is a most excellent topic to go round and round on.

    I do appreciate the discussion, though. Being an American, it's kind of refreshing to see intelligent people that can disagree without being disagreeable...though I admit that's becoming a tired old saw, by now. Still cuts, though.
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  11. #131
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by kfcSmitty View Post
    but I don't get why this pissing match seems to come up every few months.
    It usually starts when certain individuals start telling lies like .Net applications taking 15 minutes to compile or other similar nonsense. There's a lot of anger that MS and the rest of the world has forgotten about VB6 so every 6 months or so we get an epidemic of these threads when people are all up in their feelings about it.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    It usually starts when certain individuals start telling lies like .Net applications taking 15 minutes to compile or other similar nonsense.
    I tried to explain the problem already several times - and it's not a lie - it's very real...

    Here's a google-link, which clearly shows that I'm not the only one who encountered the problem:
    https://www.google.com/search?q=High...zation+Service

    Olaf

  13. #133
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmidt View Post
    I tried to explain the problem already several times - and it's not a lie - it's very real...

    Here's a google-link, which clearly shows that I'm not the only one who encountered the problem:
    https://www.google.com/search?q=High...zation+Service

    Olaf
    Seriously? A bug? This is what it has come to now? Do you know any software without bugs? Do we really want to talk about all the gremlins that come out with VB6 and applications written in it? Did you mention the entire novel people have to read to get VB6 to install and work correctly on Windows 10?

    Come on man, I know we have had our differences but have you ever seen me stoop so low as to suggest bugs as an argument in support of my position?
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. -jmcilhinney

  14. #134
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    Seriously? A bug?
    No Niya - it's not a bug - it's an official Windows-Service, which always kicks in,
    as soon as new Framework-Classes/Assemblies are encountered on a given Win-Machine.

    Here's some text from MS, which states what this service does:
    mscorsvw.exe is precompiling .NET assemblies in the background.
    Once it's done, it will go away.
    Typically, after you install the .NET Redist, it will be done with the high priority assemblies in 5 to 10 minutes -
    and then will wait until your computer is idle to process the low priority assemblies.
    And yes, in some earlier versions - this service-process seems to have been somewhat "buggy",
    in that it "didn't find an end" (starting the .NET-assembly-recompilation-process again and again)...

    Olaf

  15. #135
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    OK, some people do appear to have problems. You linked to a Google search. The first of those listed three possible causes, the second of which was malware posing as the service, and the third was a corrupted download. Obviously, a corrupted download can be an issue for anything that you download, and the behavior can be unpredictable.

    So, of the three causes, only the first one is really worth discussing, and that one appears to be an odd situational thing. Yet that isn't worth discussing, either. We all work with computers. We've all probably have examples of certain systems acting oddly or incorrectly. I remember one computer that took half an hour to boot up due to some LAN issue. Nobody ever figured out what it was, though quite possibly because nobody ever bothered to look. It was just one computer in an office with a few dozen.

    Systems have gotten complex enough that odd interactions occur at times.

    For the rest of us, that just isn't an issue. The normal case that people experience is: Our computers do a whole lot of things that we neither know nor care about. Just watch the process list bounce around. Watch the CPU usage bounce around. Watch the memory use bounce around. It generally is changing so fast you barely get to register it, but there are LOTS of things running here and there, now and then, and so forth. All of this is totally fine right up until it isn't, and even that first link shows that it isn't with .NET only in exceptional cases (only one of which is due to .NET).

    So, that's just more alarmist nonsense. For the great majority of people, it just works. What gets set up in the background doesn't mean a thing to us. We see no cost to the way it is doing what it is doing. You had to go looking to find something to grind your axe over, and found something that the vast majority of people never notice. It's a phony argument because it's a contrived cost rather than a real one.
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  16. #136
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    the only problems I ever had with .net, java and visual c++ is that they force me to download and install different packages.
    and that part is actually one reason I want to stay away from those languages.
    its also why I dont use .ocx or any 3rd lib dependencies that I can't use without registering.
    but that doesn't mean I need to argue or compare, people can use and do whatever they want, as long they give me the same choice.

    I think the OP has enough information, maybe its time to lock this thread?

  17. #137
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    So, that's just more alarmist nonsense.
    No, it isn't.

    What we talk about is an official Windows-Service, which is part of every modern Win-OS.

    And when it works bugfree, then the description from MS (which I've posted already) applies -
    here it is again:
    mscorsvw.exe is precompiling .NET assemblies in the background.
    Once it's done, it will go away.
    Typically, after you install the .NET Redist, it will be done with the high priority assemblies in 5 to 10 minutes -
    and then will wait until your computer is idle to process the low priority assemblies.
    So, MS itself finds it necessary, that this service runs (after a new Framework-version got installed) -
    and MS itself states, that (in bugfree mode) this service needs 5-10min for the most important-classes -
    and "another unspecified amount of time" for all the Classes with lesser priority.

    And that sums up (on several machines we run here in our Office) to about 15min CPU-load,
    when new .NET-Updates come in via Windows-Update.

    Olaf

  18. #138
    PowerPoster wqweto's Avatar
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmidt View Post
    And that sums up (on several machines we run here in our Office) to about 15min CPU-load,
    when new .NET-Updates come in via Windows-Update.
    I thought this was common knowledge, old news.

    Apparently only VB6-ers have the "decency" to observe this phenomenon :-))

    cheers,
    </wqw>

  19. #139
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Okay, that's why I called it alarmist. Your CPU is doing all kinds of things all the time. It just doesn't matter for virtually everybody. It's kind of like Cortana/Alexa/Siri/etc.. (assuming you actually use any of those, which I don't, but that's a different matter). Modern computers have a minimum of four cores, and loads can be balanced across all of theme such that the computer can do a fantastic amount in the background without having any impact on the user. Are you as concerned with all the other background processes that have no impact on you, or just this one? Personally, I'm not at all concerned about them, nor do I know anybody who is. I don't care that this browser is spell checking in between keystrokes. I don't care that I have...let's see...58 current background processes and two foreground processes...running at the time I am typing this. In fact, I'm kind of happy with that, as I managed to get a "c" into the word "typing" in the previous sentence.

    So, trying to get people to be alarmed at yet another background process, as if it was of any concern to the vast majority of people, is what I was calling alarmist. It's just like the person who went onto every forum trying to get people worked up about being able to decompile IL from .NET: Yeah, there are people who don't know and do care, but the vast majority fall into one of the other three categories (don't know\don't care, do know\don't care, and you).
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  20. #140
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    about background processes.
    I have a few microcomputers, and in one, I have installed windows 10.
    from time to time theres those processes, where CPU is almost at maximum, the fan is starting to spin like crazy and I cant do **** for minimum 10 minutes.
    I remember this time, I was very angry, what is going on, windows is telling me nothing, is there a malware/trojan? I looked around and tried to figure out why.
    so I looked into it and I discovered (reading the processes and googling) that windows is doing some compiling for the .net framework.

    I get it, if u have a desktop computer u will not notice much, but a small computer or laptop could eat up battery and cpu, in those cases, its frustrating.

    and it was like that for weeks, its like it would keep updating and updating everytime I started my computer.
    after a month or so, it went away, so Im thinking it was done. I have tried to remove updating and the framework. not sure if it helped.

    (this was not an attempt to take sides, just my experience with windows 10 and the .net framework)

  21. #141
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Simple ANSWER, NO!, no learn VB6 anymore, if you are not contracted to maintain a legacy app written in VB6, that is the only one reason to learn VB6, VB6 has so many problems, and for doing everything you needs lots of lines of code, it is not like .NET where all win APIs are implemented as easy to use objects, methods, etc., no, there you must use the DLL declare for everything, and most handling buffers, string, are not so easy, it won't handle for you the "call first to know the buffer size, then call it with the correct buffer size", things that .NET will hide with easy to use objects, methods, commands etc.

    But if you has a customer that has an huge app, which that company is running and rely on, and need urgently a vb6 programmer for maintain it, improve, make changes, that can be a nice job VERY WELL payed, as most students will just go for the newers in cloud programming styles (php, JS, HTML,CSS, ANGULAR , REACT, ETc.) and don't care anymore about programming for client side windows platform (except if in the video game industry and derivates).

    But about administratives apps, everything is shifting to cloud.

  22. #142
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by baka View Post
    about background processes.
    I have a few microcomputers, and in one, I have installed windows 10.
    from time to time theres those processes, where CPU is almost at maximum, the fan is starting to spin like crazy and I cant do **** for minimum 10 minutes.
    I remember this time, I was very angry, what is going on, windows is telling me nothing, is there a malware/trojan? I looked around and tried to figure out why.
    so I looked into it and I discovered (reading the processes and googling) that windows is doing some compiling for the .net framework.

    I get it, if u have a desktop computer u will not notice much, but a small computer or laptop could eat up battery and cpu, in those cases, its frustrating.

    and it was like that for weeks, its like it would keep updating and updating everytime I started my computer.
    after a month or so, it went away, so Im thinking it was done. I have tried to remove updating and the framework. not sure if it helped.

    (this was not an attempt to take sides, just my experience with windows 10 and the .net framework)
    I've always been dubious about MS trying to push Win10 for IoT implementations.
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  23. #143
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Somewhat unrelated but I see that its been mentioned a few times in this thread.

    Regarding installing & running the VB6 IDE on Windows 10 - I've been running it flawlessly on Win 10 machines here for years. I don't remember the exact install process which I used but I do remember that it was simple enough. So for most VB6 users it really shouldn't be an issue.....

  24. #144
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Regarding OP's question, almost everyone in this thread has reached an almost "full agreement" consensus, and there is no need to discuss it.

    I think the controversy comes from a sentence by Niya in #77: Technology is always improving and old technology become obsolete. That's life.
    Olaf's reply is: No, that's not "life"-that's "the big lie"... (at least as far .NET "technology" is concerned)

    At this time, the debate has become whether the .NET technology is advanced, whether the development of technology is really that fast, and whether it is life. All the following arguments should be around the "technology" (especially .NET technology) and the pace of technological development.

    Olaf considers more about the framework, OS services, the nature of the language and the development of future technologies. But what others consider here is syntactic sugar and applications. So this kind of argument will not have results, but we can still get some very valuable knowledge and information from Olaf, however we can't get any useful knowledge from the supporters of .NET. I very much hope that a top .NET expert can come and discuss issues with Olaf, so that we can learn a lot of useful knowledge.

    Any professional developer (especially the company's technical leader) does not hate other technologies. They instinctively hope to get new inspiration and valuable information from other technologies. Obviously, Olaf conducted in-depth research and analysis on .NET.

    I've been using VB6 for two reasons:
    (1) I have a series of huge old VB6 programs that cannot be upgraded to .NET
    (2) The development efficiency of .NET on desktop software does not exceed VB6, or even far lower than VB6 (when the excellent VB6 FrameWork or component libs are used). Please don't argue with me about this issue. Thanks.

    Now, when I'm developing modern Web-Apps, .NET does not have any advantage or appeal to me. In the past 20 years, I have spent some time almost every year to learn about some new technologies, and I also tried out the latest VisualStuidio(.NET) every year. But 3 years ago, I completely deleted VisualStuidio (.NET) from my computer, I have no interest and no time to learn about it.

    In 2000, I was learning and testing .NET (it seemed to be a Beta version at the time). At that time, I was extremely dissatisfied with .NET (especially VB.NET). The first .NET project I led my team to develop was in 2005. In 2007, I led the team to develop the second .NET project, which used WPF and Silverlight. After the project was completed, I never touched WPF and Silverlight again. Huge, bloated, and inefficient are my consistent impressions of .NET, but I have no other choice. Later, I led the team to develop 7 or 8 .NET projects (some team members have more than 15 years of .NET development experience). But my bad impression of .NET has never changed. I know that .NET has changed a lot now, but it has nothing to do with me. I have not understood any information related to it for 3 years.

    In addition, when I argue with others about technical issues, I'll try my best to get some preliminary understanding of different technologies before I start arguing with others. But there are many people here who start to express their opinions without knowing anything about the technology they are discussing, which is very strange.

    Also, the supporters of .NET always mistakenly believe that those who insist on using VB6 know nothing about .NET.
    Last edited by SearchingDataOnly; Jan 28th, 2021 at 02:06 AM.

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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by SearchingDataOnly View Post
    Regarding OP's question, almost everyone in this thread has reached an almost "full agreement" consensus, and there is no need to discuss it.

    I think the controversy comes from a sentence by Niya in #77: Technology is always improving and old technology become obsolete. That's life.
    Olaf's reply is: No, that's not "life"-that's "the big lie"... (at least as far .NET "technology" is concerned)

    At this time, the debate has become whether the .NET technology is advanced, whether the development of technology is really that fast, and whether it is life. All the following arguments should be around the "technology" (especially .NET technology) and the pace of technological development.

    Olaf considers more about the framework, OS services, the nature of the language and the development of future technologies. But what others consider here is syntactic sugar and applications. So this kind of argument will not have results, but we can still get some very valuable knowledge and information from Olaf, however we can't get any useful knowledge from the supporters of .NET. I very much hope that a top .NET expert can come and discuss issues with Olaf, so that we can learn a lot of useful knowledge.

    Any professional developer (especially the company's technical leader) does not hate other technologies. They instinctively hope to get new inspiration and valuable information from other technologies. Obviously, Olaf conducted in-depth research and analysis on .NET.

    I've been using VB6 for two reasons:
    (1) I have a series of huge old VB6 programs that cannot be upgraded to .NET
    (2) The development efficiency of .NET on desktop software does not exceed VB6, or even far lower than VB6 (when the excellent VB6 FrameWork or component libs are used). Please don't argue with me about this issue. Thanks.

    Now, when I'm developing modern Web-Apps, .NET does not have any advantage or appeal to me. In the past 20 years, I have spent some time almost every year to learn about some new technologies, and I also tried out the latest VisualStuidio(.NET) every year. But 3 years ago, I completely deleted VisualStuidio (.NET) from my computer, I have no interest and no time to learn about it.

    The first .NET project I led my team to develop was in 2005. In 2007, I led the team to develop the second .NET project, which used WPF and Silverlight. After the project was completed, I never touched WPF and Silverlight again. Huge, bloated, and inefficient are my consistent impressions of .NET, but I have no other choice. Later, I led the team to develop 7 or 8 .NET projects (some team members have more than 15 years of .NET development experience). But my bad impression of .NET has never changed. I know that .NET has changed a lot now, but it has nothing to do with me. I have not understood any information related to it for 3 years.

    In addition, when I argue with others about technical issues, I'll try my best to get some preliminary understanding of different technologies before I start arguing with others. But there are many people here who start to express their opinions without knowing anything about the technology they are discussing, which is very strange.

    Also, the supporters of .NET always mistakenly believe that those who insist on using VB6 know nothing about .NET.
    Pretty much echos my thoughts and impressions as well. I have hundreds of thousands of lines of code which is still working perfectly well on operating systems from XP to Windows 10, and most of it cannot be "upgraded" to .NET without major damage to the codebases. And even if successful, none of it would ever be the same. Further, I personally don't care for managed code. So as long as Windows supports the basic VB runtime, I will continue to use VB6 for desktop applications.

  26. #146
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by SearchingDataOnly View Post
    (2) The development efficiency of .NET on desktop software does not exceed VB6, or even far lower than VB6 (when the excellent VB6 FrameWork or component libs are used). Please don't argue with me about this issue. Thanks.
    Just because you can use a screwdriver better than a hammer doesn't mean that the screwdriver is a better tool for driving nails.

    Quote Originally Posted by SearchingDataOnly View Post
    Huge, bloated, and inefficient are my consistent impressions of .NET, but I have no other choice. Later, I led the team to develop 7 or 8 .NET projects (some team members have more than 15 years of .NET development experience). But my bad impression of .NET has never changed. I know that .NET has changed a lot now, but it has nothing to do with me. I have not understood any information related to it for 3 years.
    I'm sure there is someone in the world making the same arguments for choosing horses over cars, yet somehow we are all still driving cars.
    Treeview with NodeAdded/NodesRemoved events | BlinkLabel control | Calculate Permutations | Object Enums | ComboBox with centered items | .Net Internals article(not mine) | Wizard Control | Understanding Multi-Threading | Simple file compression | Demon Arena


    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. -jmcilhinney

  27. #147
    PowerPoster ChrisE's Avatar
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by SearchingDataOnly View Post
    In 2000, I was learning and testing .NET (it seemed to be a Beta version at the time). At that time, I was extremely dissatisfied with .NET (especially VB.NET). The first .NET project I led my team to develop was in 2005. In 2007, I led the team to develop the second .NET project, which used WPF and Silverlight.
    funny only a few(choosen peoply) tested the Beta Version, and there was no way to make a program with that version!
    I think you got your Dates wrong

    the first release was Feb. 13 2002
    to hunt a species to extinction is not logical !
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  28. #148
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    I've always been dubious about MS trying to push Win10 for IoT implementations.
    You ever wondered why Windows never made it as an OS into the automotive industry?
    Imagine driving 90 mph on the highway, when suddenly a Window pops up, telling you to close all windows.....
    One System to rule them all, One IDE to find them,
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by SomeYguy View Post
    Pretty much echos my thoughts and impressions as well. I have hundreds of thousands of lines of code which is still working perfectly well on operating systems from XP to Windows 10, and most of it cannot be "upgraded" to .NET without major damage to the codebases. And even if successful, none of it would ever be the same. Further, I personally don't care for managed code. So as long as Windows supports the basic VB runtime, I will continue to use VB6 for desktop applications.
    And that echoes my thoughts as well.

    The .NET arguments cause another echo in my mind. I remember the language snobbery arguments of the 70s/80s/90s where BASIC in all its forms was subject to derision due to being too high level and 'slow' in comparison to c and later c++.

    By these arguments .NET in all its forms would be considered bloat and slow, whilst the levels of vitriol against it would have been enormous. It is only the advent of newer, faster machines that has allowed the results of bloat to go unchallenged. Those "language snobbery" arguments are still relevant today. Who in o/s development would ever use an utterly inapplicable language based upon .NET for the development of a fast and efficient operating system? It is back to plain old C for that, not even C++ will cut it.

    BASIC and its syntactical simplicity and accessibility was one of the original reasons for criticism by the C crowd, don't ask me why.

    VB version of .NET would be doubly-tarred and feathered by those language purists (in fact it still is) to a level beyond far that which VB6 received (which is closer to the metal than any .NET application).

    So, before you deride a language that fits a role, remember how your own chosen language is perceived from the rest of the world and let that give you some perspective. The time seems to be approaching when you will be able to code in the language of your choice due to the work of people like Krool, Olaf, LA Volpe, Carles from RADBasic and the TwinBasic chaps - and perhaps we will soon be able to produce 64 bit binaries.

    Depending upon your perspective, your language of choice is the right tool for you. VB6 still has a place for learning BASIC if your direction is aimed toward the metal rather than away from it. I can code .js on the web and I can script in .js and VB on the desktop but I know where each style of coding sits in the firmament, the web stuff high up and away from the real computer. VB.NET sits a little way below that but if you want to get a taste of the real world and you are a beginner then VB6 still feels more valid than .FRED.

  30. #150
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    Depending upon your perspective, your language of choice is the right tool for you. VB6 still has a place for learning BASIC if your direction is aimed toward the metal rather than away from it. I can code .js on the web and I can script in .js and VB on the desktop but I know where each style of coding sits in the firmament, the web stuff high up and away from the real computer. VB.NET sits a little way below that but if you want to get a taste of the real world and you are a beginner then VB6 still feels more valid than .FRED.
    This is exactly the kind of thing that motivates my involvement in these threads. You're obviously trying to imply that VB6 is lower level than VB.Net hence it's more "real". The problem here is that it is blatant misinformation yet again. You guys are just parroting old axioms without really knowing anything about it.

    Let's look at how basic addition is done by the VB.Net compiler:-
    Code:
            Dim a As Integer = 3
            Dim b As Integer = 6
    
            Dim c As Integer = a + b
    This is what the .Net JIT produces for the above code:-
    Code:
     mov         dword ptr [ebp-40h],3  
     mov         dword ptr [ebp-44h],6  
     mov         eax,dword ptr [ebp-40h]  
     add         eax,dword ptr [ebp-44h]  
     jno         WindowsApp19.Form1.MySub()+055h (017D2055h)  
     call        74EDED00  
     mov         dword ptr [ebp-48h],eax
    In case anyone reading doesn't understand what any of that does I will include a version of the disassembly with comments that attempt to explain what is happening to the best of my knowledge:-
    Code:
    ; Write the value 3 as a DWORD at memory address ebp-40h
    ; ebp-40h is an address in the current stack frame
    ; that represents the 32 bit Integer variable a
    mov         dword ptr [ebp-40h],3  
    
    ; Write the value 6 as a DWORD at memory address ebp-44h
    ; ebp-44h is an address in the current stack frame
    ; that represents the 32 bit Integer variable b
    mov         dword ptr [ebp-44h],6  
    
    ; Move the value of variable a into the EAX register
    mov         eax,dword ptr [ebp-40h]  
    
    ; Add the current value in the EAX register to the value
    ; of variable b. The result of the addition is the new
    ;value of EAX
    add         eax,dword ptr [ebp-44h]  
    
    ; If the above addition didn't result in an overflow then 
    ; skip the next line. Note: This instruction and the
    ; call instruction after it are not generated 
    ; by the .Net JIT compiler when the "remove integer overflow checks"
    ; optimization is enabled
    jno         WindowsApp19.Form1.MySub()+055h (03202055h)  
    
    ; My guess is that whatever code is at 74EDED00
    ; is responsible for throwing overflow exceptions in the
    ; .Net runtime. 
    call        74EDED00  
    
    ; Write the value of the EAX register 
    ; as a DWORD at memory address ebp-48h
    ; ebp-48h is an address in the current stack frame
    ; that represents the 32 bit Integer variable c
    mov         dword ptr [ebp-48h],eax
    The above instructions are executed directly on the CPU. The VB6 native compiler would produce something similar if not almost exactly the same. So unless the VB6 compiler is somehow producing CPU microcode, VB6 operates at exactly the same the same level of abstraction.

    I should also mention that modern Visual Studio IDEs don't use an interpreter to execute VB.Net code. So when you're running code in the IDE, VB.Net applications are actually executing as native programs compiled by the JIT compiler. In this specific case, it is VB.Net that is actually, as you say, closer to the metal. VB6 applications run on top of a bytecode virtual machine when executed by the IDE.

    And as a side note I'll also mention that the only reason C/C++ are considered lower level languages than VB.Net/VB6 is mainly because of pointers. Pointers allow C compilers to directly generate machine instructions that manipulate memory. Doing the same in VB6/VB.Net would require function calls which are an extremely bloated way to do the same thing. Calling a function requires setting up a stack frame and cleaning it up which is quite involved and totally unnecessary for simple memory operations. In this sense, C/C++ is lower level than VB6/VB.Net. This is the main reason C/C++ is better suited to writing compact high performance programs.

    Without pointers, C/C++ wouldn't be any better or worse than any flavor of Visual Basic. C/C++ compilers do the exact same thing as any Visual Basic compiler, they take high level code and produce machine code. They are just capable of producing faster machine code in very specific circumstances. It just so happens that one of those specific circumstances is memory access, which a typical program spends like 99% of it's time doing. Being better at something that is being done 99% of the time would be quite noticeable and can result in strong biases in observers.
    Treeview with NodeAdded/NodesRemoved events | BlinkLabel control | Calculate Permutations | Object Enums | ComboBox with centered items | .Net Internals article(not mine) | Wizard Control | Understanding Multi-Threading | Simple file compression | Demon Arena


    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. -jmcilhinney

  31. #151
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Ultimately all code is executed on the computer... but that wasn't what I was referring to. I was referring to the level of abstraction in the language that takes it further/closer to the metal for the user in his own personal interaction, in this sense .NET is an abstraction level above VB6 in a lot of what it does, that is what makes .NET easier to code as you have found.

    So, I'm not arguing against that (Niya you take stuff too personally). What I said, is simply what I said, and again but in a nutshell - "horses for courses".

    In addition to that - you and the others need to get yourself some perspective. I think that final point is what you lack in your interactions, however, it is not just you that has that problem. Computer people in general tend to be focussed to a point of almost asperger-like blinkeredness and perspective is what many of us lack in our own opinions just because they can all be backed by a little bit of fact and logic.

  32. #152
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    Ultimately all code is executed on the computer... but that wasn't what I was referring to. I was referring to the level of abstraction in the language that takes it further/closer to the metal for the user in his own personal interaction, in this sense .NET is an abstraction level above VB6 in a lot of what it does, that is what makes .NET easier to code as you have found.
    The level of abstraction is not what makes VB.Net easier to use. It is a combination of a far more powerful IDE, the syntax updates to the language and the .Net Framework itself which is readily accessible in nearly all .Net project types with no extra effort.

    The level of abstraction in .Net applications is exactly the same as that of VB6 applications. It would be more accurate to say that modern versions of Visual Studio provide access to more abstractions more easily to VB.Net programmers by way of the Framework. Using RC5 in VB6 achieves same thing but with a little more effort(it has to be downloaded, registered, added to projects etc). In this context, abstractions are all the classes and functions from libraries used by programmers. These classes/functions are usually just wrappers around lower level code. For example, the Winsock control in VB6 is just an abstraction around the actual Winsock functions in the Win32 API.

    By the way, in the case of Winsock, in .Net it is actually lower level than stock Winsock capability in VB6. The Winsock control in VB6 is an example of an overly simplified abstraction that actually hurts more than it helps. Winsock in the .Net Framework allows you access to a lot of low level details that VB6's Winsock control doesn't. Unless RC5 has it's own Winsock wrapper, you're directly calling the Winsock WIN32 API or using some 3rd party library, when writing Winsock programs in VB6 you will be working at a much higher level of abstraction than in VB.Net.

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    So, I'm not arguing against that (Niya you take stuff too personally).
    Nothing personal about it. I don't hate you or Olaf or even dilettante. I just hate the fact that you all are repeatedly parroting the same old inaccurate axioms and people are going to read that and make bad decisions.
    Treeview with NodeAdded/NodesRemoved events | BlinkLabel control | Calculate Permutations | Object Enums | ComboBox with centered items | .Net Internals article(not mine) | Wizard Control | Understanding Multi-Threading | Simple file compression | Demon Arena


    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. -jmcilhinney

  33. #153
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    Just because you can use a screwdriver better than a hammer doesn't mean that the screwdriver is a better tool for driving nails.
    There may only be screwdrivers, hammers and nailing tools in your world, but there may already be machine tools and CNC machine tools in someone else's world. If some of the development tools I developed with VB6 are ordinary machine tools, then Olaf's RC5/RC6 is a CNC machine tool. Although my work efficiency has dropped sharply in recent years, I guess my developing efficiency for using VB6 to develop desktop software is 2-3 times that of a skilled .NET programmer, and Olaf's developing efficiency for using VB6 to develop win-apps and web-apps is 5-10 times that of a skilled .NET programmer(a programmer with more than 10 years of .NET development experience).

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    I'm sure there is someone in the world making the same arguments for choosing horses over cars, yet somehow we are all still driving cars.
    Maybe some people are taking high-speed trains at 350-380 kilometers per hour.

  34. #154
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisE View Post
    funny only a few(choosen peoply) tested the Beta Version, and there was no way to make a program with that version!
    I think you got your Dates wrong

    the first release was Feb. 13 2002
    It's very clear that we had been learning and testing .NET before the official version of .NET was released. I remember that we seemed to have tested two beta versions. Our purpose of learning and testing .NET Beta in advance was to become familiar with .NET development skills as soon as possible, and to prepare in advance for migrating our VB6-Apps to .NET.

    Initially, our products used VC and VB mixed programming, but the development efficiency of VB6 is too high. We gradually replaced all VC code with VB6 code. When the .NET Beta version was launched, we expected .NET to have higher development efficiency than VB6. But .NET really disappointed me. Until now, the development efficiency of .NET has not exceeded VB6. Our testing and migrating work continued from 2000 to 2003, and finally we gave up completely. Our conclusion was that large-scale VB6 programs are almost impossible to upgrade to .NET. From 2000 to 2003, our VB6 code continued to grow, almost adding more than 1 million lines.
    Last edited by SearchingDataOnly; Jan 28th, 2021 at 12:08 PM.

  35. #155
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    This is exactly the kind of thing that motivates my involvement in these threads. You're obviously trying to imply that VB6 is lower level than VB.Net hence it's more "real". The problem here is that it is blatant misinformation yet again. You guys are just parroting old axioms without really knowing anything about it.

    Let's look at how basic addition is done by the VB.Net compiler:-
    Code:
            Dim a As Integer = 3
            Dim b As Integer = 6
    
            Dim c As Integer = a + b
    This is what the .Net JIT produces for the above code:-
    Code:
     mov         dword ptr [ebp-40h],3  
     mov         dword ptr [ebp-44h],6  
     mov         eax,dword ptr [ebp-40h]  
     add         eax,dword ptr [ebp-44h]  
     jno         WindowsApp19.Form1.MySub()+055h (017D2055h)  
     call        74EDED00  
     mov         dword ptr [ebp-48h],eax
    In case anyone reading doesn't understand what any of that does I will include a version of the disassembly with comments that attempt to explain what is happening to the best of my knowledge:-
    Code:
    ; Write the value 3 as a DWORD at memory address ebp-40h
    ; ebp-40h is an address in the current stack frame
    ; that represents the 32 bit Integer variable a
    mov         dword ptr [ebp-40h],3  
    
    ; Write the value 6 as a DWORD at memory address ebp-44h
    ; ebp-44h is an address in the current stack frame
    ; that represents the 32 bit Integer variable b
    mov         dword ptr [ebp-44h],6  
    
    ; Move the value of variable a into the EAX register
    mov         eax,dword ptr [ebp-40h]  
    
    ; Add the current value in the EAX register to the value
    ; of variable b. The result of the addition is the new
    ;value of EAX
    add         eax,dword ptr [ebp-44h]  
    
    ; If the above addition didn't result in an overflow then 
    ; skip the next line. Note: This instruction and the
    ; call instruction after it are not generated 
    ; by the .Net JIT compiler when the "remove integer overflow checks"
    ; optimization is enabled
    jno         WindowsApp19.Form1.MySub()+055h (03202055h)  
    
    ; My guess is that whatever code is at 74EDED00
    ; is responsible for throwing overflow exceptions in the
    ; .Net runtime. 
    call        74EDED00  
    
    ; Write the value of the EAX register 
    ; as a DWORD at memory address ebp-48h
    ; ebp-48h is an address in the current stack frame
    ; that represents the 32 bit Integer variable c
    mov         dword ptr [ebp-48h],eax
    The above instructions are executed directly on the CPU. The VB6 native compiler would produce something similar if not almost exactly the same. So unless the VB6 compiler is somehow producing CPU microcode, VB6 operates at exactly the same the same level of abstraction.

    I should also mention that modern Visual Studio IDEs don't use an interpreter to execute VB.Net code. So when you're running code in the IDE, VB.Net applications are actually executing as native programs compiled by the JIT compiler. In this specific case, it is VB.Net that is actually, as you say, closer to the metal. VB6 applications run on top of a bytecode virtual machine when executed by the IDE.

    And as a side note I'll also mention that the only reason C/C++ are considered lower level languages than VB.Net/VB6 is mainly because of pointers. Pointers allow C compilers to directly generate machine instructions that manipulate memory. Doing the same in VB6/VB.Net would require function calls which are an extremely bloated way to do the same thing. Calling a function requires setting up a stack frame and cleaning it up which is quite involved and totally unnecessary for simple memory operations. In this sense, C/C++ is lower level than VB6/VB.Net. This is the main reason C/C++ is better suited to writing compact high performance programs.

    Without pointers, C/C++ wouldn't be any better or worse than any flavor of Visual Basic. C/C++ compilers do the exact same thing as any Visual Basic compiler, they take high level code and produce machine code. They are just capable of producing faster machine code in very specific circumstances. It just so happens that one of those specific circumstances is memory access, which a typical program spends like 99% of it's time doing. Being better at something that is being done 99% of the time would be quite noticeable and can result in strong biases in observers.
    All fine & dandy and perhaps true but bottom line is that my end users could care less about any of this. After the program is compiled it becomes meaningless to anybody unless you somehow hit incompatibilities due to a non-targeted .NET framework version or something.

    My VB6 programs are tiny and fast. All used controls and resources are compiled within the executable so no dependencies except for the basic runtime. I can place any of them on a USB drive, complete with VB runtimes if needed, and most all of them will easily run on systems from Windows 95 to Windows 10. Can't get there with .NET.

    Not sure how true it is but I've also read many times that .NET applications are quite easy to decompile. If true then I really don't like that.

    After VB6, I personally would choose Powerbasic, Purebasic, Xojo, VC++ 6, etc before considering .NET. I tried a couple of times to get along with .NET but it just didn't happen for me. There are some things which bug me about .NET. I will definitely try it again someday but not anytime soon.

    I'm very glad Niya that .NET does everything you dream of. That's truly awesome. But it still isn't for everyone and maybe never will be. If you hate VB6 so much then no worries, just don't use it. But I don't understand why a longtime member here such as yourself would come into a forum of enthusiastic VB6 users and continually bash their tool of choice and try to convert them to .NET.

    Understand that I'm not totally against .NET, but it just isn't the right tool for my purposes.
    Last edited by SomeYguy; Jan 28th, 2021 at 01:03 PM.

  36. #156
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by SearchingDataOnly View Post
    our VB6 code continued to grow, almost adding more than 1 million lines.
    Wow!

    I'd agree with you over development efficiency. .FRED feels like heavy bread. VB6 is Weetabix.

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    I don't hate you or Olaf or even dilettante.
    How can you even think about hating Dilettante? He is nice.

  37. #157
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by SomeYguy View Post
    But I don't understand why a longtime member here such as yourself would come into a forum of enthusiastic VB6 users and continually bash their tool of choice and try to convert them to .NET.
    How many times do I have to say this? I don't care what they use. I care even less about winning converts. You want to use VB6 then by all means use it. You love it? Good for you.

    All of this is 100% about who may end up here reading what we write and I would like it to be the truth. It should be the truth. The truth is, no matter how much you love VB6 it will never change the fact that VB.Net under modern Visual Studio versions is a far far better tool for developing Windows applications. This is not meant to offend. It's not meant to bash. It is just pure truth and I will not deny it for fear of offending anyone. Be offended all you want, I never say anything different.
    Last edited by Niya; Jan 28th, 2021 at 02:38 PM.
    Treeview with NodeAdded/NodesRemoved events | BlinkLabel control | Calculate Permutations | Object Enums | ComboBox with centered items | .Net Internals article(not mine) | Wizard Control | Understanding Multi-Threading | Simple file compression | Demon Arena


    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. -jmcilhinney

  38. #158
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    WVB6 is Weetabix.
    Now I'm confused. I thought you LIKED VB6????
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    truth. people that keep saying "this is truth", Im the truth-bearer are those that I will never believe in.
    is this a religious site now?

  40. #160
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by baka View Post
    truth. people that keep saying "this is truth", Im the truth-bearer are those that I will never believe in.
    is this a religious site now?
    Yes. Where have you been the last twenty years?
    My usual boring signature: Nothing

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