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Thread: Should i learn VB6?

  1. #81
    Frenzied Member PlausiblyDamp's Avatar
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by yereverluvinuncleber View Post
    With regard to a potential successor to VB6, that's the most positive thing that I've heard in years... coming from such a knowledgeable source. I'll take that as a proper positive.
    The potential problem then is that in another decade things will have moved on even further, you run the risk of potentially always playing catch-up with whatever is the new requirements.

  2. #82
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmidt View Post
    No, that's not "life" - that's "the big lie"... (at least as far .NET "technology" is concerned).

    For years they were selling you big, unwieldy Rubber-Anvils, and Rubber-Hammers - to forge your own "rubbery-stuff".

    All the while talking, how the quality of "the next generation of rubber-anvils+hammers" was improved in each version.

    But if you look into, what the vendor is using in his own "smithy" - it is (to this day) still:
    - solid steel anvils
    - solid steel hammer-heads with hardwood-shafts
    (talking about completely "rubber-free" VC++ produced Flat- and Class-libs - the Class-libs usually adhering to the COM-ABI)

    Languages the world over, are only "the binding glue" (they are not as important) -
    what's important for a language is, to be able to "easily connect to libs, made out of steel".

    And the more "bindings" (to "steely libs") a language is able to make use of (out of the box) - the better for its success.
    That's for example the reason for the success of Python.

    It's just a (high-level) Scripting-language (not able to produce "steely libs" itself) -
    but it ships with a lot of well-made bindings to "steely libs" (produced with C or C++).

    And of course MS was showing you "Iron-Python" (to enable that clone, to allow bindings to "stuff, produced in the rubber-universe").
    (please note, that Iron-Python is not a successful language - everyone the world over sticks to "the original" ... for a reason)

    Ok - now switching to VB6 - isn't it great to have a high-level language,
    which is not only able to "connect" (bind) to:
    - "steely flat libs" (via Declare statements or typelibs)
    - or "steely Class-libs which adhere to a Standard-ABI (COM-Dlls and OCXes)
    but also able to produce fast, native compiled "steely libs" itself?

    I always see C or C++ based languages in the top-rankings (because they are the first "goto"-tools when it comes to producing "steely libs").
    But what else is VB6 other than a "higher level abstraction of C++" (using the same compiler in the end, to produce its steely binaries).

    A higher-level-language like that is rare (if you compare with e.g. Python, which is basically only a "consumer of libs") -
    and its potential is not even fully unfolded (e.g. by enabling CDECL imports in Declare Statements, or enabling it to produce Dlls with "flat-API-exports").

    In my opinion, there's no reason to "panic" because software-technology does not progress as fast
    as the advertisers of "books and consulting-services" are trying to make you think...

    But when it progresses, it mostly does so in manifestations of "steely libraries" -
    and a language which is able to "bind to" these new libs, will "progress along".
    (latest example -> the existing VB6-Binding to the new Edge/Chromium-BrowserControl)

    IMO we have more than enough time, to come up with a decent replacement for VB6 over the next decade.

    Olaf
    I hear you but you're ignoring the big elephant in the room. The world doesn't seem to care. If it did care about this as much as you do, .Net would have died in it's tracks with the likes of SilverLight. I think you've forgotten that at the end of the day, Microsoft is a business. There is no profit in developing any product for which there is no demand. Why do you think they are slowly phasing out VB from the .Net ecosystem? It's because there is little demand for it. Everyone is loving C#. At the end of the day, the market decides what is valuable, not you or I.

    More to the point of what you were talking about, I'm not going to argue about whether it's good or bad. Instead I'll talk about the demand for it. In my case, I really don't care about how close to the metal VB6 is. I cared about VB.Net giving me what I wanted and needed far more so that VB6 did. If it didn't do you think I'd have left VB6? Given the massive success of the .Net ecosystem, I'd say it gave a lot of people what they needed. They are not perfect products by any means. I'm sure you could sit here and list all the thousand and one ways they suck but at the end of the day, if people are still opting for it then they must be doing something right. None of the stuff you mentioned about VB6 being close to the metal is appealing to me in anyway, shape or form. And to be 100% honest with you, if the day comes where I do need to do a lot of bare metal programming, my language of choice would actually be a combination of C and assembly. I would not use VB6 for this. VB6 is a terrible choice for this in comparison to C/C++.

    More on the topic of demand, there is something else I find quite interesting. You can find an entire Windows compatible operating system basically built by a team of volunteers yet for 20+ years now you can barely scrape together 3 people to create a modernized version of VB6. In 2006 one guy just decided to write his own language for whatever personal reasons and within the space of 14 years, it gained enough interest to inspire an entire team of people to devote themselves to its development and despite a couple of events that threatened it's future, it eventually gained the support of corporate titan Amazon. This language is today known as Rust.

    My point is if VB6 is as great as you say, why does no one seem to care about it. I think all of you need to start taking a good honest hard look at why people aren't as into it as you think they should be? What is going on with that? You know its funny, sometimes I wonder if you guys really believe what you're saying. If VB6 really is such a godsend, all you guys have to do is start it. Get something working, a compiler, an IDE, a library, just something solid. Put it on GitHub and then you massively promote it as much as you can. Go on Facebook and YouTube. Let people know about it. If there is interest, you will get volunteers. I remind you again that Rust started as a personal project by one guy. You can find out once and for all if there is any serious interest in the revival of VB6. What is taking you guys so long to pull the trigger? Maybe it's time for you all to stop complaining and actually do something about it. The fact that nobody has done that leads me to wonder if you guys really even believe in this at all. People are moving Heaven and Earth every day for the things they believe in. Making the same thread on VBForums every six months doesn't count as effort.

    You believe that MS made a mistake in abandoning VB6 in favor of .Net? Then show us. Don't just tell us. Get out there and start shaking trees. Get something going. Talk about it. Advertise it. Make big noise. If all these great things about VB6 are true, people will get behind it. If that becomes a success, I will be the first the admit that I was wrong in promoting VB.Net as a worthy successor. Let's find out what the public really wants, not just a handful of noise makers on VBForums.
    Last edited by Niya; Jan 24th, 2021 at 11:50 AM.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. -jmcilhinney

  3. #83
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    32-bit won't be disappearing anytime soon. The advantage of 32-bit over 16-bit was very large, especially since 16 bit dealt with those memory models, which were a bad idea even at the time. The advantage of 64-bit over 32-bit isn't all that compelling for most people.
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  4. #84
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by baka View Post
    so its a question of, when will 32bit disappear?. thats the concern.
    32 bit isn't going anywhere, at least not until it becomes the norm for programs to use more than 2 GB of it's personal address space. The advantages of a 64 bit OS has more to do with the OS itself and the hardware than the applications actually running on them.

    A 64 bit processor allows the hardware to access a larger address space much easier than trying to do it with a 32 bit processor. I don't think anyone wanted to go back to near and far pointers or all that segment/selector mess we had in the 16 bit era. It's just makes life a lot easier to use a 64 bit processor.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. -jmcilhinney

  5. #85
    PowerPoster wqweto's Avatar
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    I hear you but you're ignoring the big elephant in the room. The world doesn't seem to care. If it did care about this as much as you do, .Net would have died in it's tracks with the likes of SilverLight. I think you've forgotten that at the end of the day, Microsoft is a business. There is no profit in developing any product for which there is no demand. Why do you think they are slowly phasing out VB from the .Net ecosystem? It's because there is little demand for it. Everyone is loving C#. At the end of the day, the market decides what is valuable, not you or I.

    More to the point of what you were talking about, I'm not going to argue about whether it's good or bad. Instead I'll talk about the demand for it. In my case, I really don't care about how close to the metal VB6 is. I cared about VB.Net giving me what I wanted and needed far more so that VB6 did. If it didn't do you think I'd have left VB6? Given the massive success of the .Net ecosystem, I'd say it gave a lot of people what they needed. They are not perfect products by any means. I'm sure you could sit here and list all the thousand and one ways they suck but at the end of the day, if people are still opting for it then they must be doing something right. None of the stuff you mentioned about VB6 being close to the metal is appealing to me in anyway, shape or form. And to be 100% honest with you, if the day comes where I do need to do a lot of bare metal programming, my language of choice would actually be a combination of C and assembly. I would not use VB6 for this. VB6 is a terrible choice for this in comparison to C/C++.

    More on the topic of demand, there is something else I find quite interesting. You can find an entire Windows compatible operating system basically built by a team of volunteers yet for 20+ years now you can barely scrape together 3 people to create a modernized version of VB6. In 2006 one guy just decided to write his own language for whatever personal reasons and within the space of 14 years, it gained enough interest to inspire an entire team of people to devote themselves to its development and despite a couple of events that threatened it's future, it eventually gained the support of corporate titan Amazon. This language is today known as Rust.

    My point is if VB6 is as great as you say, why does no one seem to care about it. I think all of you need to start taking a good honest hard look at why people aren't as into it as you think they should be? What is going on with that? You know its funny, sometimes I wonder if you guys really believe what you're saying. If VB6 really is such a godsend, all you guys have to do is start it. Get something working, a compiler, an IDE, a library, just something solid. Put it on GitHub and then you massively promote it as much as you can. Go on Facebook and YouTube. Let people know about it. If there is interest, you will get volunteers. I remind you again that Rust started as a personal project by one guy. You can find out once and for all if there is any serious interest in the revival of VB6. What is taking you guys so long to pull the trigger? Maybe it's time for you all to stop complaining and actually do something about it. The fact that nobody has done that leads me to wonder if you guys really even believe in this at all. People are moving Heaven and Earth every day for the things they believe in. Making the same thread on VBForums every six months doesn't count as effort.

    You believe that MS made a mistake in abandoning VB6 in favor of .Net? Then show us. Don't just tell us. Get out there and start shaking trees. Get something going. Talk about it. Advertise it. Make big noise. If all these great things about VB6 are true, people will get behind it. If that becomes a success, I will be the first the admit that I was wrong in promoting VB.Net as a worthy successor. Let's find out what the public really wants, not just a handful of noise makers on VBForums.
    I plan on posting on Rust discourse servers (a.k.a. their vbforums.com) a sincere plea for helping the abandoned VB6 community re-writing the compiler as an open-source project in Rust.

    This could be a cry for help from a dying alien civilization to all the brave humans but unfortunately Elngish (sic) is not my native tongue -- will have to find someone to cobble up the text for me :-))

    cheers,
    </wqw>

  6. #86
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    yeah it will not happen yet. but slowly.
    heres an article
    https://www.techspot.com/news/85229-...indows-10.html

    maybe its nothing, the 64bit architecture of the cpu will allow 32bit,
    but who knows, maybe microsoft will start releasing more 64bit only OS, to try the market.
    and if it works, they will continue the upgrade until theres just a minority that want legacy compatibility.

  7. #87
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by wqweto View Post
    I plan on posting on Rust discourse servers (a.k.a. their vbforums.com) a sincere plea for helping the abandoned VB6 community re-writing the compiler as an open-source project in Rust.

    This could be a cry for help from a dying alien civilization to all the brave humans but unfortunately Elngish (sic) is not my native tongue -- will have to find someone to cobble up the text for me :-))

    cheers,
    </wqw>
    It's funny, I was actually thinking about how Rust was created on top of LLVM. LLVM was the back end compiler. It seems to be a very big deal in the world of language development. There might be a lot of benefit to building a new VB compiler on top of LLVM like Rust was.

    Quote Originally Posted by baka View Post
    yeah it will not happen yet. but slowly.
    heres an article
    https://www.techspot.com/news/85229-...indows-10.html

    maybe its nothing, the 64bit architecture of the cpu will allow 32bit,
    but who knows, maybe microsoft will start releasing more 64bit only OS, to try the market.
    and if it works, they will continue the upgrade until theres just a minority that want legacy compatibility.
    It literally won't matter as long as WoW64 exists.
    Treeview with NodeAdded/NodesRemoved events | BlinkLabel control | Calculate Permutations | Object Enums | ComboBox with centered items | .Net Internals article(not mine) | Wizard Control | Understanding Multi-Threading | Simple file compression | Demon Arena


    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. -jmcilhinney

  8. #88
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    Let's find out what the public really wants...
    What "the public" really wants, is - for example - healthy food...
    What "the public" really gets, is - heavily advertised fast-food-junk ("Burgers, Fries 'n Coke").

    And on top of the advertising, there's the "critical-mass-effect" ("everyone's eatin it - can't be that bad").

    As far as I'm concerned, I couldn't care less (Python got "big" without any heavy advertising).

    Olaf

  9. #89
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmidt View Post
    What "the public" really wants, is - for example - healthy food...
    What "the public" really gets, is - heavily advertised fast-food-junk ("Burgers, Fries 'n Coke").

    Olaf
    More accurately:
    What "the public" say they really want is healthy food.
    What "the public" really buys is -heavily advertised fast-food-junk.


    When it comes to the direction for the future, MS is going in an interesting direction. Back a decade, or so, VS allowed you to write in C, C++, C#, VB.NET, and F#. These days...I can't keep track of all the languages that are in VS. Python is certainly there. The JS editor is pretty doggone good, by now. Does TypeScript really count as a separate language, or is it a flavor of JS? How about Xamarin? Or Cordova? And there are a growing number of other languages that aren't such a question.

    Personally, I don't think they are downgrading VB so much as they are leaving it in an expanding mix of languages that you can use the VS IDE to develop in. There is active development for C#, and they have said that VB might incorporate useful new features, though at a slower pace. The strategy seems to be, "write in whatever language you want...so long as it is using our tools." The fact that the tools are free just adds to that. The driver for this strategy seems to be more important to them than any one language. I'm not quite clear on what the driver for that strategy is, though.
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  10. #90
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    What "the public" say they really want is healthy food.
    What "the public" really buys is -heavily advertised fast-food-junk.
    Well, I honestly doubt, that "the public" would buy the fast-food-junk,
    if healthy food was available at the same price.

    In that regard - please note, that not even Mc-Donalds was ever going as far as:
    "Giving Bic-Macs away for free over the last decade..."

    But MS did and does that with VStudio (whereas VB6 was never available for free - but bought anyways).

    Olaf

  11. #91
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmidt View Post
    As far as I'm concerned, I couldn't care less (Python got "big" without any heavy advertising).
    Then stop complaining about MS abandoning VB6. Stop complaining when those of us that like .Net better say it's better. Stop complaining about VB.Net not being like VB6. Stop making "bring back VB6" and "lets create a new VB6" thread every 6 months. These aren't the actions people that "couldn't care less".

    MS has made the decision to stop developing the Visual Basic language within the .Net ecosystem. Do you see me crying about it? Do I make 2 threads a year talking about keeping it alive? No. Why? Because I couldn't care less. I like VB, don't get me wrong but the future belongs to C# and I'm fine with that. I'm more than willing to accept that it might be better to go forward with C# only. I'm not gonna be on here talking about how much C# sucks just because I like writing BASIC code more. If I have to leave VB and use C# instead I will do that. I certainly won't be here 20 years later crying for MS to bring VB.Net back.
    Last edited by Niya; Jan 24th, 2021 at 02:45 PM.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. -jmcilhinney

  12. #92
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    hold on a bit.
    we are in the VB6 thread for a reason. and thats because we are:
    using it
    enjoy it
    want it

    not because we:
    not using it
    hate it
    don't want it


    a VB6 programmer should give good advice to the OP, if start learning it or not,
    but here I feel that we have haters that want to defend another language and trash VB6.
    well, Im not in the .NET part of the forum "AT ALL". why? because I dont use it.
    if I ever start using it I will visit it. and if I use it I will give feedback in those part of the forum about .NET
    and maybe compare to VB6 with cons and pros. but not to start a war saying .NET is crap, why should I, better spend my time in VB6 and learn more.

    here, we should be pro-VB6, since its the language we "enjoy" using, because we are still "using it" and actually "want" to use it. why the need to come here and start comparing and trashing the thread.

    even if Im pro-VB6 I can give feedback that "theres good and bad things of using VB6, and if u start now, I recommend this and that" not because I hate VB6, but because I can see the cons to not use it, but I can also see the cons why use it.

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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Are you saying to Niya what Smeagol states in this video?



    Apologies Niya, in advance.

  14. #94
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by baka View Post
    well, Im not in the .NET part of the forum "AT ALL". why? because I dont use it.
    Then stop spreading blatant lies like this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Schmidt View Post
    Here's, what I think causes the disadvantages of the .NET-Classes in the listing above:
    - the non-native IL-representation of most "binaries" (which contribute a large part of the 15min CPU-load in case of a .NET-update)
    15 minutes load time? Really? If you don't use it, then you don't know anything about it so stop lying like this.

    It was dilettante saying nonsense like this nonstop that finally led to get involved in these topics in the first place. That was where it started with me and threads like this years ago. I had no problem with people who love VB6 and still wanted to use it but when they started spreading misinformation about .Net that's when I jumped in because I knew it was a lot of lies meant to encourage any fence sitters to stick in VB6. I was a fence sitter once that was mislead by people like dilettante and Olaf spewing a bunch of lies and half truths about .Net. As long as I'm around, I won't see lies like that being spread and stay silent. That will never happen. If a fence sitter happens to come across one of these threads I hope he will get the information he needs to make a decision. If he wants to stay in VB6, fine but it hopefully wouldn't be because he was misinformed about .Net and what it could offer. And YES, VB.Net does offer a lot that VB6 doesn't.
    Last edited by Niya; Jan 24th, 2021 at 08:31 PM.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. -jmcilhinney

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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    no matter what one or two others are saying about .NET, we are still in the VB6 area.
    if you ask me, Im not that interested in .NET or the comparison between the two.
    the importance is the topic of this thread, to learn or not to learn.

    also, let people believe in what they want. if they get misinformed, its their own fault for not finding the truth on their own.
    this neverending fight is taking us nowhere. its not that your fight will make me like .NET or want to try it. contrary I just get annoyed and feel will avoid .NET even more.

    the importance is the user experience. no matter language, how good it is, how new it is. if you like something good for you.
    if you feel your language is not enough. do something about it. learn more, create your own code or migrate to something else if you feel its not good enough.

    at this right moment I dont feel VB6 is not good enough. so far we have been able, thanks to the community and the expert to grow VB6 further. but there will be a time when I will ask for more, and if nobody can help out, and I feel VB6 is stalled, at that point I will tell myself: do something about it. and maybe I will look for another language. but its not now.

    for the new, to jump into the wagon, u need to understand the limitation, but also the adventure you can do and that its not over, there hope and VB6 is good enough to compete. with directx9/11, opengl, direct2d and more, we are not behind, we are here.
    is the old VB6 component old? make one, using opengl, replace the component, creating a usercontrol that works with direct2d. replace GDI/GDI+ with directx so, we can do more if we want and make a modern application that can compete with any language out there.

    so its not about language but user experience, and how much work you want to put into it.

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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Has the OP provided info such as this -
    - His age (aka how long he will be using the programming language he decides on) ?
    - Employment (aka does he wish to learn skills attractive to his future employment/carreer)
    - Target for his created programs

    If he was -
    - Old'ish
    - Only creating programs for himself, and friends
    - Wanting enjoyment from the programming experience
    Then I would recommend that he go with VB6

    If the answers to those questions are different, then 'that is a different kettle of fish'
    And he should provide that extra information, so as to prevent this thread going round in circles

  17. #97
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by baka View Post
    also, let people believe in what they want. if they get misinformed, its their own fault for not finding the truth on their own.
    Not while I am here.
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    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. -jmcilhinney

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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Deleted ...
    Last edited by SearchingDataOnly; Jan 25th, 2021 at 02:18 AM.

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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    After taking a nap, the anger has subsided, so I deleted my comment, it will cause another endless debate. I'll start the discussion from another angle.

    https://www.vbforums.com/showthread....6-in-the-world
    Last edited by SearchingDataOnly; Jan 25th, 2021 at 03:14 AM.

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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Let me requote myself:
    ...here an objective technological analysis (based on Apples vs Apples - comparing the two frameworks):
    - class-coverage for modern App-Dev scenarios? (nearly identical - including Unicode- and DPI-awareness, threading, WebScenarios)
    - class-amount? (.NET about 100 times as many ... for the same functionality)
    - class-framework-size? (.NET about 100 times as large)
    - deployment-process? (instant regfree + App-local deployment ... vs. Windows-Update which takes about 15 minutes here, before the CPU-load goes down)
    - startup-time of larger Apps (about 10 times longer - comparing the old COM-based SQLManager with the new .NET-based one)

    You see also in this listing, that there's something fundamentally wrong with the .NET approach also technologically.

    Here's, what I think causes the disadvantages of the .NET-Classes in the listing above:
    - the non-native IL-representation of most "binaries" (which contribute a large part of the 15min CPU-load in case of a .NET-update)
    - the "Everything is an Object" philosophy (it's what causes the huge amount of classes in .NET)
    - the abundantly used function-overloading (it contributes to making .NET binaries larger, compared to using 2 or 3 optional Parameters in VB6)
    - the JIT-compiling is causing the load-time differences in larger Apps (not to mention the GC which sometimes kicks in at the wrong time)

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    ... stop spreading blatant lies like this:
    15 minutes load time? Really? If you don't use it, then you don't know anything about it so stop lying like this.
    I'm not in the habit of lying (you've just misread parts of what I've now requoted above).

    For your convenience, I've now "color-coded" the parts which are related to each other
    (the upper block describing the "symptoms" - the lower block a few of the reasons, which causes these effects)

    The one you were referring to, is a darker red in a bold font.
    And what I was talking about in these bold lines was not startup-times - it was deployment...
    (deployment-volume, but also the apparently necessary recompiling of huge parts of the framework into the system-local .NET GAC - the "Global Assembly Cache").

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    And YES, VB.Net does offer a lot that VB6 doesn't.
    No, it doesn't - not technologically...
    (if it did, the vendor himself would use it in his own products - and not COM-libs like VB6 is using as well).

    HTH

    Olaf

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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by PlausiblyDamp View Post
    Personally I find so many of the language features of .Net so useful and intuitive these days that I would hate to lose them..

    Generics are especially powerful when it comes to writing strongly typed code without a lot of cut and paste duplication. Other things you mentioned in your post such as overloaded functions make the code so much easier to read / write once you get used to them, not having multiple versions of the same function with slightly different names based on parameters is an utter blessing.

    Option Strict and Option Infer can make for safer and more readable code, no more automatic type conversions causing odd bugs everywhere... Delegates / Lambdas can make code so much more compact without also being unreadable.

    Linq (and most of the other things mentioned above combined) also make for more readable and simple code when working with arrays / collections / databases / whatever that I miss the syntax whenever I use a language that doesn't have similar capabilities.

    Async / Await turn multi-threading and similar concepts into a trivial task compared to manually dealing with threads and callbacks etc.

    As much as I used to love VB6 when that was my main programming language, I really wouldn't want to give up all the features .Net and the newer VB syntax offer; while I am impressed and amazed at the work people are doing with VB6 and the tools people like Olaf and Krool are producing it wouldn't convince me to go back. If I was still on VB6 then they might help to extend the product's lifetime and have kept me using it for longer, but they wouldn't be enough to make me go back.
    What you said, I think they are just some syntactic sugar (Microsoft spent more than ten years to complete these syntactic sugar). An excellent VB6 basic framework(such as RC6) can provide higher development efficiency and better code stability than these syntactic sugars. Once you get used to this excellent VB6 basic framework, these syntactic sugars lose their appeal.

    Quote Originally Posted by PlausiblyDamp View Post
    The potential problem then is that in another decade things will have moved on even further, you run the risk of potentially always playing catch-up with whatever is the new requirements.
    In my opinion, Olaf has considered the future 10-20 technological development trend, and his vision and wisdom in this area exceed the vast majority of people.
    Last edited by SearchingDataOnly; Jan 25th, 2021 at 04:31 AM.

  22. #102
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmidt View Post
    The one you were referring to, is a darker red in a bold font.
    And what I was talking about in these bold lines was not startup-times - it was deployment...
    (deployment-volume, but also the apparently necessary recompiling of huge parts of the framework into the system-local .NET GAC - the "Global Assembly Cache").
    So what are you saying? It takes 15 minutes for the JIT to compile an application when deployed? It takes 15 minutes to install? What are you even talking about here?

    My deployment process for years has consisted of copying the binaries emitted by the compiler from my PC to the client machine and just running them. I've yet to see any 15 minute anything delaying my application from working. It just runs. Just like any other application produced by any other compiler. Are you trying to run these applications on 286 machines with Windows 3.1? What do you even get this stuff?
    Treeview with NodeAdded/NodesRemoved events | BlinkLabel control | Calculate Permutations | Object Enums | ComboBox with centered items | .Net Internals article(not mine) | Wizard Control | Understanding Multi-Threading | Simple file compression | Demon Arena


    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. -jmcilhinney

  23. #103
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by baka View Post
    hold on a bit.
    we are in the VB6 thread for a reason. and thats because we are:
    using it
    enjoy it
    want it

    not because we:
    not using it
    hate it
    don't want it


    a VB6 programmer should give good advice to the OP, if start learning it or not,
    but here I feel that we have haters that want to defend another language and trash VB6.
    well, Im not in the .NET part of the forum "AT ALL". why? because I dont use it.
    if I ever start using it I will visit it. and if I use it I will give feedback in those part of the forum about .NET
    and maybe compare to VB6 with cons and pros. but not to start a war saying .NET is crap, why should I, better spend my time in VB6 and learn more.

    here, we should be pro-VB6, since its the language we "enjoy" using, because we are still "using it" and actually "want" to use it. why the need to come here and start comparing and trashing the thread.

    even if Im pro-VB6 I can give feedback that "theres good and bad things of using VB6, and if u start now, I recommend this and that" not because I hate VB6, but because I can see the cons to not use it, but I can also see the cons why use it.
    I'm very much on baka's side.
    I consider Niya really heavy with this continuous attitude.
    It's time to stop with these .Net fanatics who come on VB6 forums to promote their beloved .NET.
    Enough!
    This is very annoying.
    This section is called VB6 and Earlier.
    Those who want to learn more about NET will go to its own forum to ask questions.

  24. #104
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by reexre View Post
    I'm very much on baka's side.
    There are no sides. There is only the truth.
    Treeview with NodeAdded/NodesRemoved events | BlinkLabel control | Calculate Permutations | Object Enums | ComboBox with centered items | .Net Internals article(not mine) | Wizard Control | Understanding Multi-Threading | Simple file compression | Demon Arena


    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. -jmcilhinney

  25. #105
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    There are no sides. There is only the truth.
    Certainly my Lord, I bow to the giver of truth


    EDIT
    Maybe I was a little harsh.
    I am liberal. Let everyone post what they want where they want.
    It's the "penumatic hammer" attitude that bothers me.

  26. #106
    PowerPoster techgnome's Avatar
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    To the OP if you're still with us.... forget VB altogether... just go with Java. Clearly VBers are freaking nuts.

    -tg
    * I don't respond to private (PM) requests for help. It's not conducive to the general learning of others.*
    * I also don't respond to friend requests. Save a few bits and don't bother. I'll just end up rejecting anyways.*
    * How to get EFFECTIVE help: The Hitchhiker's Guide to Getting Help at VBF - Removing eels from your hovercraft *
    * How to Use Parameters * Create Disconnected ADO Recordset Clones * Set your VB6 ActiveX Compatibility * Get rid of those pesky VB Line Numbers * I swear I saved my data, where'd it run off to??? *

  27. #107
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    I'd recommend C# as well as Java. Visual Basic whether it's VB6 or VB.Net are not taken seriously by the rest of the world. Rust is one of the newest languages taking the world by storm and seems to be on the cutting edge in a few domains. Python sometimes feels like it's the world's most popular language these days and I hear it's doing really good in the domain of AI. If you want to be on the cutting edge, stay very far away from any form of BASIC.
    Treeview with NodeAdded/NodesRemoved events | BlinkLabel control | Calculate Permutations | Object Enums | ComboBox with centered items | .Net Internals article(not mine) | Wizard Control | Understanding Multi-Threading | Simple file compression | Demon Arena


    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. -jmcilhinney

  28. #108
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    NET: there is a big disadvantage, the array low bound can not be negative.

  29. #109
    Frenzied Member PlausiblyDamp's Avatar
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by quickbbbb View Post
    NET: there is a big disadvantage, the array low bound can not be negative.
    That isn't what I would call a big disadvantage, I don't think I have ever used a negative index. It isn't exactly difficult to convert a negative index into an offset either.

    Then again, if I was using .Net I would tend to use collections anyway in preference to Arrays wherever possible.

  30. #110
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    if I need to recommend a language that is not VB6 I would pick something that is cross-platform. no point recommend something else for the everyday user.

    Lazarus
    REALbasic (Xojo)
    b4x

    of course if that path is a professional programmer, you should start with C and Assembler.

  31. #111
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by quickbbbb View Post
    NET: there is a big disadvantage, the array low bound can not be negative.
    Technically, array bounds can never be negative, as the start of an array is some memory address, which itself can't be negative. So, to make it look like you have a negative bounds, you are taking the positive bounds and transform them. That could be done in any language. The fact that it isn't implemented as a feature in any one language shouldn't matter to anybody, as they could do it themselves without any particular effort.
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  32. #112
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    (1) an offset is not good idea , once the code lines is large, you always have a chance to forget to bring in the offset
    And need add one variable to remember the offset

    vb6:
    redim a( -100 to 100 )
    a( 10 ) = 123

    use offset
    redim a( 0 to 200 )
    a( 10 + 100 ) = 123 -> Correct writing

    but I forget add offset
    I write a( 10 ) = 123 -> Error writing , but VB6 can not tell me it is error, because 10 is in range of lbound~ ubound
    ( why forget ? because code lines is large, a( x +100) is used in very many places , I always have a chance to forget to bring in the offset )

    If I am lucky, I will find out the bug immediately
    If I am not lucky, I may be find the bug after a few months ,
    in the few months , all the big data tests I have done is work for nothing


    (2) collections is fast than array ???

    if collections is slow more than array
    use collections to perform big data operations, the time consumption will skyrocket
    Last edited by quickbbbb; Jan 25th, 2021 at 10:58 AM.

  33. #113
    Frenzied Member PlausiblyDamp's Avatar
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by quickbbbb View Post
    (1) an offset either is not good idea , once the number of lines in the program is large, you always have a chance to forget to bring in the offset
    And need add one variable to remember the offset

    vb6:
    redim a( -100 to 100 )
    a( 10 ) = 123

    use offset
    redim a( 0 to 201 )
    a( 10 + 100 ) = 123 -> Correct writing

    but I forget add offset
    I write a( 10 ) = 123 -> Eroor writing , but VB6 can not tell me it is error, beacuse 10 is in range of lbound~ ubound


    (2) collections is fast than array ???

    if collections is slow more than array
    use collections to perform big data operations, the time consumption will skyrocket
    Collections are generally easier than arrays, performance is often comparable unless you are dealing with very large amounts of data. Resizing arrays however can be a lot slower than adding to a list however so it can be a difficult comparison. Unless you are dealing with very strict performance constrainets the ease of a list will often be a big selling point, if you need the performance of an array then it makes sense to use an array.

    If you are constantly accessing an array and needing to apply an offset then you could wrap the array access inside a class and deal with the offset as part of the class' public interface. Also if you are doing appropriate testing the offset issue should be caught anyway.

  34. #114
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by quickbbbb View Post
    NET: there is a big disadvantage, the array low bound can not be negative.
    You're so adorable.
    Treeview with NodeAdded/NodesRemoved events | BlinkLabel control | Calculate Permutations | Object Enums | ComboBox with centered items | .Net Internals article(not mine) | Wizard Control | Understanding Multi-Threading | Simple file compression | Demon Arena


    C++ programmers will dismiss you as a cretinous simpleton for your inability to keep track of pointers chained 6 levels deep and Java programmers will pillory you for buying into the evils of Microsoft. Meanwhile C# programmers will get paid just a little bit more than you for writing exactly the same code and VB6 programmers will continue to whitter on about "footprints". - FunkyDexter

    There's just no reason to use garbage like InputBox. -jmcilhinney

  35. #115
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by quickbbbb View Post
    (1) an offset is not good idea , once the code lines is large, you always have a chance to forget to bring in the offset
    And need add one variable to remember the offset
    Sure, that's certainly true, and that's what a class would solve: Make it so that you don't have to remember.

    The point to keep in mind is that arrays are just a sequence of bytes that start at one address and continue on from there. That address is never either 0 or a negative number, and you don't know what it is. Every language simplifies this down to going from 0 to x (C/C++/.NET/others) or going from A to B (VB6) is just a mapping. You can extend the language to allow for some other mapping, or a variety of mappings, or not, but in every case, array(x) has to be turned into a memory address, and that address will not be x except in the most improbable of circumstances.

    (2) collections is fast than array ???

    if collections is slow more than array
    use collections to perform big data operations, the time consumption will skyrocket
    Depends on what you mean by collection. There are several different definitions of that word in programming and in English. In English, any grouping of objects can be called a collection. In programming, there may be a specific object called a Collection. If you are using the programming definition, then you can compare the relative performance of a Collection against an array, and will likely find that there are good and bad features to each. If you are using the English definition of collection, then it could refer to several different programming constructs, such as lists, hash tables, dictionaries, queues, stacks, and so forth. Each will have some advantages and disadvantages, which makes comparing them situationally dependent.
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  36. #116
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    My App is big data test
    CPU i7-3770
    8 vb6 Apps run at the same time , CPU will be 100%
    Time consuming is 4 ~ 6 hours
    (1) use Collections instead of array , Time consuming will may be 40 ~ 60 houers or more
    (2) use Class instead of array ,Time consuming will may be 12 ~ 18 houers or more

    Class , Collections all are not good idea
    Last edited by quickbbbb; Jan 25th, 2021 at 06:04 PM.

  37. #117
    Frenzied Member PlausiblyDamp's Avatar
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by quickbbbb View Post
    My App is big data test
    CPU i7-3770
    8 vb6 Apps run at the same time , CPU will be 100%
    Time consuming is 4 ~ 6 hours
    (1) use Collections instead of array , Time consuming will may be 40 ~ 60 houers or more
    (2) use Class instead of array ,Time consuming will may be 12 ~ 18 houers or more

    Class , Collections all are not good idea
    Generalisations are not a good idea, choosing the correct tool for the job is a good idea.

    If the overheads for a Collection don't work in specific scenario then don't use them in that scenario. For most of the time though a good collection class can provide cleaner and easier to maintain code and the performance differences will be negligible.

    Then again if you are using .Net collections the choice of collection can make a big difference in performance as well. Lists, Dictionaries, LinkedLists all have different usage scenarios and different performance profiles.

  38. #118
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    Quote Originally Posted by PlausiblyDamp View Post
    For most of the time though a good collection class can provide cleaner and easier to maintain code and the performance differences will be negligible.
    I also can say
    IF .NET can support negative bound of array , I will get cleaner and easier to maintain code
    No need to detour by use collection or class

    Why .NET unwilling support ?

    ============================

    .NET Support += is very good , because ....

    (1) += is High frequency in use
    (2) += can Reduce clerical errors obviously

    my_variableUPa = my_variableUPa + 1
    my_variableUPb = my_variableUPb + 1

    I may be make a mistake to write as

    my_variableUPb = my_variableUPa + 1


    Aarry is also high frequency in use
    Last edited by quickbbbb; Jan 25th, 2021 at 07:06 PM.

  39. #119
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    I would say that it is to be consistent with C/C++ standards, though I don't know if that is true. Arrays all start at 0 in those languages, and so they do in .NET.

    I'm unclear on what we are talking about here, by now. Are there collections in VB6? Are we even talking about VB6? If not, then why not?

    The times you list don't make a whole lot of sense to me unless we are talking about VB6 and there are collections in VB6. I really don't know the performance characteristics of collections in VB6, which should be obvious since I clearly don't know if there are collections in VB6. The class I'm thinking of would do nothing more than an addition for every array access. That doesn't seem like it would cause a three fold increase in time.
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  40. #120
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    Re: Should i learn VB6?

    3 fold increase is in vb6


    .NET will be the same performace in array vs class ?
    Last edited by quickbbbb; Jan 25th, 2021 at 07:41 PM.

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