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Thread: Could there have been election fraud?

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    Angry Could there have been election fraud?

    Republicans have been screaming to high heaven about Dominion Voting Machines. All the various ways they were used to help Biden steal the election.
    Here's something fun to debate

    --
    There's of course nothing to suggest this is the case.

    But we all know Republicans project so hard they could show a movie on the the surface of the sun.

    In a number of races, extremely consistent polling turned out in extraordinary upsets well outside the margin of error. The most clear example being Susan Collins in Maine. But a number of other races provided stunning upsets, always in favor of Republicans. But you know where polling was dead-on accurate? Georgia. This, after their previous gubernatorial race was full of irregularities and Kemp had the voting machines wiped despite a court order to preserve them as is. Georgia switched from ES&S machines in that race to Dominion this year. Maine used ES&S machines for Collins' stunning 15-17 point swing. Montana, a +10 swing, ES&S. South Carolina, +10, ES&S.

    Bottom line is it seems polling was *far* more accurate for high profile races where Dominion or other machines were used, and all the extremely large polling errors were ES&S machines. Of course, the margin of victory is too large for hand recounts and audits, how convenient.

    It's not the first time, the suspicion runs deep. Chuck Hagel, then CEO of ES&S (until a couple weeks prior to the announcement), ran for Senate in Nebraska in 1996. He was polling even with his opponent at 47%, then proceeded to win with 83% of the vote. The request for a recount was denied because the margin of victory was so large.

    -----
    Now, what better way to discredit the argument than to go around spouting ridiculous conspiracy theories about Dominion voting machines (and nope, no need to look at ES&S machines!)? Since those results *don't* have any suspicious errors, and the theories about what happened are completely outlandish, it forces Democrats into calling out the idea of cheating via voting machines as a ridiculous unfounded conspiracy theory. Now there's no credibility to argue, hey wait a minute, could the kings of projection have been projecting yet again?


    Enjoy

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    Re: Could there have been election fraud?

    I thought the issue was that quite a few Dominion machines were known to have flipped Trump votes to Biden. This was blamed on a lack of a software update, and things got more murky from there.

    There are plenty of other oddities and irregularities. For example state by state last-minute election rule changes without the authority to do so, just to make more too-late arriving pro-Biden mail-in ballots eligible. Not to mention shotgunning bales and bales of unsolicited mail-in ballots targeting communities expected to lean Biden.

    I'm not convinced there are enough of these to be revealed and overturned to make a difference in the outcome. They just managed to cheat a little bit more thoroughly than in 2016, enough to push the totals Bidenward this time.

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    Re: Could there have been election fraud?

    I mean, the Trump campaign has had over 50 court cases alleging the above dismissed and not a single one upheld, but you cleave to that which you wish.
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    Re: Could there have been election fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    I thought the issue was that quite a few Dominion machines were known to have flipped Trump votes to Biden. This was blamed on a lack of a software update, and things got more murky from there.

    There are plenty of other oddities and irregularities. For example state by state last-minute election rule changes without the authority to do so, just to make more too-late arriving pro-Biden mail-in ballots eligible. Not to mention shotgunning bales and bales of unsolicited mail-in ballots targeting communities expected to lean Biden.

    I'm not convinced there are enough of these to be revealed and overturned to make a difference in the outcome. They just managed to cheat a little bit more thoroughly than in 2016, enough to push the totals Bidenward this time.

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    Super Moderator jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: Could there have been election fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Not to mention shotgunning bales and bales of unsolicited mail-in ballots targeting communities expected to lean Biden.
    As far as I'm aware, that never happened. What actually happened was that applications for mail-in ballots were sent out to more people than usual. That anyone should be complaining about any measure that makes it easier to vote legitimately in America is ridiculous. It's truly disgraceful how difficult it is to vote in the US already and the GOP in particular tries to make it harder all the time. Here it Australia, we have all our elections on a weekend, so very few people would need to miss work to vote, and we would consider having to wait half an hour to cast a vote to be unreasonable. Where I live, there are at least two polling places within walking distance. That Americans have to travel significant distances and queue for hours on a workday to cast a vote is utterly shameful. With all that and a pandemic going on, why would it be considered a bad thing to encourage people to vote by mail? Let's also not forget that Trump tried very hard to sabotage the entire USPS and quite obviously to try to reduce the vote for Biden.
    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    For example state by state last-minute election rule changes without the authority to do so
    Maybe I'm thinking of the wrong thing but I suspect that you may be misrepresenting that as well. I recall that there was one case where a governor tried to make a law change that was outside his powers but it was effectively irrelevant because the state legislature made the same change anyway. Not sure whether there were actually any other cases but, given the ridiculous nature of some of Trump's law suits, it seems unlikely that he would not challenge any such law changes but his record in court so far suggests that, if he did, he was unsuccessful and so there likely was no issue in the first place.

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    Re: Could there have been election fraud?

    That anyone should be complaining about any measure that makes it easier to vote legitimately in America is ridiculous.
    You're missing the point. The point is it made it easier for them to vote the wrong way
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    Super Moderator jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: Could there have been election fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    You're missing the point. The point is it made it easier for them to vote the wrong way
    It certainly seems that greater voter turnout almost invariably favours the more left-leaning candidate(s). I suspect that one reason that dilettante and his ilk are pissed off is that the DNC basically suppressed the vote as much as they could during their own primaries, ostensibly in an effort to hamper Bernie Sanders, but then complained and fought against the GOP doing the same thing in the general. Basically, anyone who genuinely cares about democracy should be making every effort to making voting as simple as possible. Unfortunately, neither party is fully committed but it seems clear that the GOP tends to do more to hamper it and has basically thrown it out the window with Trump at the helm. It's debateable whether the Democratic party would play as dirty as the Republican party does if they were in a position where they felt that they needed to do so to win. They really don't though, so we may never know. In a fair election right now, Democrats would win a significant majority. Several Republicans have pretty much admitted as much. Fair means, among other things, no jerrymandering, easy access to polling places, no purging of voter rolls, etc, etc.

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    Re: Could there have been election fraud?

    the DNC basically suppressed the vote as much as they could during their own primaries, ostensibly in an effort to hamper Bernie Sanders
    Interesting. I hadn't heard that but it certainly sounds believable.

    Despite me prior sarcasm I absolutely agree with you. Voter turnout should be paramount and I find watching queues at American polling stations bizarre too. I've never had to queue here, I just walk straight in, ask for my ballot (which I do not need to provide ID for), fill it out in the booth and pop it in the box. If I can't be bothered I don't have to because I will have been provided with postal ballot without my needing to ask for it. I don't understand how people can object to any of this.
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    Re: Could there have been election fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    I hadn't heard that but it certainly sounds believable.
    I can't recall specifics now but I recall there were multiple issues. I recall that in one particular case, the number of polling places in a jurisdiction was reduced from the previous ten to just one or two. From memory, that was not an isolated incident but it was one of the most aggregious.
    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    I don't understand how people can object to any of this.
    Here's my take on that. It seems to me that one of the most significant differences between left- and right-wing political philosophies today is that those on the left prioritise deserving people getting what they deserve while those on the right prioritise undeserving people not getting what they don't deserve. The left tends to want to make sure that those who cannot provide for themselves are provided for by the state and if some undeserving people manage to game the system then that's just the cost of doing business. The right tends to want to make absolutely sure that those undeserving people don't get anything and if some deserving people miss out as a result then that's just too bad.

    When it comes to voting, many are suspicious that, if it's too easy, there will be people who abuse it. The powers that be on the right have taken advantage of that and fostered that way of thinking and the absolute surety by millions of people that there was mass voter fraud in the most recent election is the end result of that. Many millions of right-leaning voters in the US assume that any steps to make it easier to vote is a guarantee of increased voter fraud and so they oppose it. If millions of legitimate voters are disenfranchised as a result then that's just too bad. The fact that they will be largely left-leaning voters makes it far more palatable.

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    Re: Could there have been election fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    Interesting. I hadn't heard that but it certainly sounds believable.

    Despite me prior sarcasm I absolutely agree with you. Voter turnout should be paramount and I find watching queues at American polling stations bizarre too. I've never had to queue here, I just walk straight in, ask for my ballot (which I do not need to provide ID for), fill it out in the booth and pop it in the box. If I can't be bothered I don't have to because I will have been provided with postal ballot without my needing to ask for it. I don't understand how people can object to any of this.
    So... you could vote twice... in person, and by ballot... and no one would know...

    I've always had to show an ID when I vote, so it's never bothered me... here, when I go, I show my ID, they scan the bar code on the back of my DL, it pulls up my address, voting precinct and identifies what ballot I need. That allows them to then print out the ballot with the correct code on it so I get the selections I need. They also know now that I voted, and if I now then try to mail in a ballot, one or the other will get thrown out. But.... I also know that getting a license or some kind of ID around here is fairly easy, but that's not necessarily the case for everyone everywhere. So I have kind of mixed feelings about it.

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    Re: Could there have been election fraud?

    I didn't have to wait in a line for more than a few minutes, despite showing up at the busiest time of day for the polling station....oh wait, I'm a white guy living in a strongly Republican area. I guess there's no incentive to suppress my vote.
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    Re: Could there have been election fraud?

    I thought the issue was that quite a few Dominion machines were known to have flipped Trump votes to Biden
    The only way you could believe that nonsense is if you actively refuse to look at the facts of the case. There have been hand ballots recounts in Georgia (who used Dominion voting machines) which proved that vote switching didn't happen as the paper ballots matched the electronic ballots. There was a small number of uncounted ballots found but that's it.

    What I find pretty funny about this is that the voting machine companies are finally starting to fight back and SmartMatic who has been accused by Fox and Newsmax amongst others of all sorts of fraud are suing them for defamation unless they not only retract their statements but do so with the same fervour in which they made the initial allegations.

    This has led to Fox already running segments rebutting themselves like this one which is pretty amusing

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE6s...rianTylerCohen
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    Re: Could there have been election fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    I guess there's no incentive to suppress my vote.
    If they'd heard your puns, they'd have suppressed the living sh*t out of you!

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    Re: Could there have been election fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post
    So... you could vote twice... in person, and by ballot... and no one would know...
    No, it doesn't. The fact that you don't have to show ID doesn't mean that you don't have to tell them who you are. It might enable someone else to vote in your place, or you to vote in someone else's place, but if two people tried to vote as the same person then that might set off alarm bells and some sort of investigation. We do have to show ID here in Australia. If you don't have a driver's license, you can get a photo ID card that looks pretty similar and can be used for things like proof of age at licensed premises. I'm not sure what else can be used but I know that there are other forms of ID accepted.
    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post
    But.... I also know that getting a license or some kind of ID around here is fairly easy, but that's not necessarily the case for everyone everywhere.
    I have heard a number times that Republicans are in generally favour of implementing voter ID laws while many Democrats are against them on the basis that they are discriminatory. I have to admit that I don't know what the specific reasons provided for opposing them are but I have seen a few videos "debunking" them by someone wandering the streets and asking black people whether they have appropriate ID. I have to imagine that there is some sort of basis for the claims, even if they are potentially suspect.

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    Re: Could there have been election fraud?

    Don't you think it is odd that vote totals keep coming out so very close to 50-50, election after election?

    And what about the large number of down-ballot Republicans who won even where Trump failed?

    Well, at least you'll get what you wanted. More military interventionism, further job loss for most workers with benefits to a few, widening income inequality, expansion of the security state, "crime" crackdowns feeding into more private prisons, and a return to a policy of austerity. Bidenism.

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    Re: Could there have been election fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Don't you think it is odd that vote totals keep coming out so very close to 50-50, election after election?

    And what about the large number of down-ballot Republicans who won even where Trump failed?

    Well, at least you'll get what you wanted. More military interventionism, further job loss for most workers with benefits to a few, widening income inequality, expansion of the security state, "crime" crackdowns feeding into more private prisons, and a return to a policy of austerity. Bidenism.
    Who are you even talking to here? Who is the "you" that you're pretending exists? Specifically:

    No it is not odd that the numbers come out at about 50/50 in a two-party system. The same thing pretty much happens everywhere there are only two major parties. It makes perfect sense if you can get over yourself long enough to engage your brain. If one party kept getting beaten then it would change its position in order to get more votes. If that party started winning then the other party would the do the same. The two parties end up in what is effectively an equilibrium at about 50/50. You end up with the die-hards on both sides who won't change their vote no matter what and the swing voters who get pissed off with the party that's in power doing nothing useful so they vote for the other, only to find that they do nothing useful either and switch again. This should be obvious to anyone who looks at the situation objectively, so I guess we know why it's not obvious to you.

    Large numbers of down-ballot Republicans won even when Trump lost because so many Democrats are garbage but Trump is even worse garbage.

    Exactly who here do you think wants more military intervention, etc, and on what basis did you determine that? Maybe stop living in your fantasy world and engage with people's actual positions. If you think that someone is wrong then how about pointing why they're wrong instead of pretending you know what we think better than we do?

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    Re: Could there have been election fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Don't you think it is odd that vote totals keep coming out so very close to 50-50, election after election?...
    Not really. If you have two lousy choices, then I think it logical that the selection essentially becomes a coin toss, trying to figure out the lesser of two evils.
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    Re: Could there have been election fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Don't you think it is odd that vote totals keep coming out so very close to 50-50, election after election?

    And what about the large number of down-ballot Republicans who won even where Trump failed?
    People do think it is odd. That is why there are a bunch of investigations going on into them to verify authenticitity. However, it doesn't matter who validates them because at this point Trump supporters have ruled that the following are in on the conspiracy to keep him out of office: half the republican party, the state judges, the federal judges, the CIA, the FBI, the local government.. I could go on.

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    Re: Could there have been election fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    If they'd heard your puns, they's have suppressed the living sh*t out of you!
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    Re: Could there have been election fraud?

    I thought the issue was that quite a few Dominion machines were known to have flipped Trump votes to Biden. This was blamed on a lack of a software update, and things got more murky from there.
    Who are these people who "know" this? I've heard wild accusations with no evidence to back them up. So if these machines are "Known" to have flipped votes, how is it known and who knows it? Where are these people.

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    Re: Could there have been election fraud?

    I'm not sure what kind of voting machines were used where I am. I didn't care at the time, I was just looking at how they worked. I almost voted for the wrong guy, though, which did show how easy it would be to 'flip' a vote. It wouldn't be Trump to Biden, though. What happened was that there were a LOT of people on the ballot. More than would fit on the touch screen of the device, in fact. They were listed alphabetically, too, so Trump was near the bottom (I think Kanye was last) and Biden was first, if I remember right.

    Out of curiosity, I scrolled through the list to see all the names and parties. I then went and voted for the other contests. At the end, I was shown my votes. At that point, I realized that my vote had moved, and I know why it moved: It was a touch screen that was a bit too sensitive. The very act of scrolling had switched my vote when I touched the screen to scroll. It was easy to fix, it's just that you had to actually pay attention. Seems like most people are too time broke to pay that much, so I wonder how many voted for the candidate of their choice, scrolled to see the rest, and didn't notice that their scrolling had changed their vote.

    After voting, my ballot was printed out, so I had a second chance to review my vote, which I did. The printed ballot was then taken to a different machine, which recorded it. Frankly, I felt it was a pretty good system. The machine that took the vote produced a printed record, which was then physically carried to a second machine which recorded it, plus there were two distinct opportunities to check that the vote was for the person of your choosing.

    Even that scrolling issue would have resulted in voting for some third party candidate, since the major candidates were at the top and bottom of the ballot due to the alphabetic sorting of names, and the names of the candidates being near the beginning and end of the alphabet.
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    Re: Could there have been election fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    Who are these people who "know" this?
    When Trump wants to spout BS, he often starts with "people are saying..." or the like. Presumably it's those people.

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    Re: Could there have been election fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by kfcSmitty View Post
    People do think it is odd. That is why there are a bunch of investigations going on into them to verify authenticitity. However, it doesn't matter who validates them because at this point Trump supporters have ruled that the following are in on the conspiracy to keep him out of office: half the republican party, the state judges, the federal judges, the CIA, the FBI, the local government.. I could go on.
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    Re: Could there have been election fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Don't you think it is odd that vote totals keep coming out so very close to 50-50, election after election?

    And what about the large number of down-ballot Republicans who won even where Trump failed?

    Well, at least you'll get what you wanted. More military interventionism, further job loss for most workers with benefits to a few, widening income inequality, expansion of the security state, "crime" crackdowns feeding into more private prisons, and a return to a policy of austerity. Bidenism.
    How are we going to get those things, Trump lost??

    -More military interventionism
    Drone strikes increased- Trump exceeded Obama's 8 year drone strike total way back in 2019, and ended disclosure of civilian deaths related to the program. His ill-advised assassination of Soleimani very nearly became something much bigger.

    -further job loss for most workers with benefits to a few
    I actually laughed out loud at the thought that there's anything Biden could do that would exceed job losses caused by Trump's dereliction of duty with the pandemic. But even if Trump had won another 4 years, as the vaccine rolls out and life gets back to normal over the course of 2021, jobs will be coming back either way. But it will definitely be better under Biden; that's the cycle, Democrats always cleaning up behind Republicans.

    >widening income inequality
    Yep that's a one way ratchet there as long as pro-corporate candidates (and Biden absolutely is one) keep winning. But at least it's a little slower when you don't give the wealthy a free for all looting the treasury like the last year (and 4, really). Who was it that gave the wealthy a trillion dollar tax cut? That would be Republicans. And as if 'trickle down' hadn't been debunked enough, this week saw a major study analyzing 50 years of policy, have a read: The Economic Consequences of Major Tax Cuts for the Rich.

    >expansion of the security state
    You've got to be kidding me here right? The party of the PATRIOT Act, TSA, "Homeland Security"... Democrats are very nearly as bad, Joe Biden in particular, but Trump hasn't and wouldn't offer any reprieve there.

    >"crime" crackdowns feeding into more private prisons
    One party is trying to legalize marijuana everywhere (and in OR, they removed criminal penalties for simple possession of all drugs), remove prison sentences for low level non-violent drug crimes, expand alternatives to jail like treatment and drug court, eliminate cash bail, decriminalize sex work, and more. While the other party attempts to block all that and are still all gung-ho for drug raids on pot smokers and mass arrests in prostitution stings, while opposing any accountability whatsoever for police.
    Private prisons are absolutely a conservative thing, geez. Obama ordered the federal government to phase out the use of private prisons. Trump reversed that order.

    What you call 'Bidenism' seems much, much closer to Trumpism. I'd encourage a thorough review of where each person actually stands from a source other than Fox News/OAN.
    Last edited by fafalone; Dec 22nd, 2020 at 12:36 AM.

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    Re: Could there have been election fraud?

    So... you could vote twice... in person, and by ballot... and no one would know...
    No. They hold a list of voters at the polling station and you're ticked off when they hand you your voting slip. Postal ballots have a similar system where you submit two parts. You submit a form that is used to identify you (and tick you off the list) along with a sealed voting slip. So in both cases it is registered that you submitted a vote but the anonymity of your vote is retained.

    We do have to show ID here in Australia.
    We're rabidly anti that here, mainly because we're rabidly anti compulsory ID in general. The right has fought tooth and nail against compulsory ID over here on the basis that it's an attack on personal freedom and it follow from that that you couldn't require ID to vote. And the left certainly aren't interested in anything that would make it more difficult to vote. So over here there's simply no thirst for it, it's not even a point of debate.

    Trump was near the bottom (I think Kanye was last) and Biden was first
    I call shenanigans! The Deep State clearly rearranged the alphabet. They've been brainwashing you for years.

    More military interventionism
    ...and the first bit of that could be domestic because you now have GOP leaders calling for the seizure of voting machines and even touting the possibility of martial law and having the military oversee reruns of the elections in the States Trump lost. That would literally (and I literally mean literally) be an attempt at a military coup. That is how far the GOP is willing to subvert democracy in order to retain power. Remember that in four years time because, whether Trump is leading them or not, the members who mulled this over will still be there.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Dec 22nd, 2020 at 03:31 AM.
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    Re: Could there have been election fraud?

    Interesting. I hadn't heard that but it certainly sounds believable.
    That's my take on it. Nobody wanted to give the republicans to opportunity to beat the "socialists democrats" drumbeat throughout the election. I believe democrats would have lost running Sanders. The remaining candidates rallied/threw their support to Biden in rapid order crushing any chance Sanders had. I believe it was the right thing to do.
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    Re: Could there have been election fraud?

    But it will definitely be better under Biden; that's the cycle, Democrats always cleaning up behind Republicans.

    I grabbed that out of the middle because I think it is so true. When the democrats under Clinton left office there was a balanced budget. When the republicans under Bush left office there was a huge debt borrowed for two separate wars and the worst recession in history. When the democrats under Obama left office the country was in an economic growth that was amazing. Trump got to ride that wave but now he is turning over a country in crisis on many fronts. Biden has a hard row to hoe...
    Please remember next time...elections matter!

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    Re: Could there have been election fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    That's my take on it. Nobody wanted to give the republicans to opportunity to beat the "socialists democrats" drumbeat throughout the election. I believe democrats would have lost running Sanders. The remaining candidates rallied/threw their support to Biden in rapid order crushing any chance Sanders had. I believe it was the right thing to do.
    See, I have to strongly disagree with this. Republicans did beat the "socialist democrat" drum. Nonstop. Biden's a socialist, Biden's a puppet of the radical left... it was *constant*. So there's two possible scenarios with Sanders: Either the attack works just from the propaganda, which means it's the same outcome as with Biden. Or, people take a few minutes to get informed about what the actual policies are. In which case, it's a better situation for Sanders since his policies are more popular.

    People have been conditioned with "Sanders can't win" as an article of faith. The left isn't immune to the effects of media, and the reality is every TV network and all the major papers were running stories trashing Sanders and praising Biden around the clock. But what actual evidence did they have for this mantra? I explained why I think the socialist attack is weak, but what else? Heads up polls... asking 'If the election was between Trump and Sanders, I'd vote for...' Sanders performed just as well as Biden on these polls. Sanders pulled *more* votes from Republicans than Biden in polls, which I'd attribute to the pro-worker platform Republicans and moderate Democrats reject. His policies had more support than Bidens.

    There weren't any strong arguments to back up the case against Sanders, so they ran with the 'socialist' argument, lied about his policies, ignored what evidence there was... and the bottom line is it *matters* when every outlet is on the same message. So everyone walks into the voting booth "Well, I like Sanders better, but he can't win" like a religion- just belief, light on facts.

    I absolutely, 100% believe that had it not been for the gross mishandling of the pandemic, Trump would have beaten Biden. That's the only thing that pushed him over the edge, look how even with that 72 million people still voted for him. Sanders would have won then, and definitely would have won promoting healthcare for all during a pandemic.

    Wasn't even close to the right thing to do.

  29. #29
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    Re: Could there have been election fraud?

    See, I have to strongly disagree with this. Republicans did beat the "socialist democrat" drum. Nonstop. Biden's a socialist, Biden's a puppet of the radical left... it was *constant*. So there's two possible scenarios with Sanders: Either the attack works just from the propaganda, which means it's the same outcome as with Biden. Or, people take a few minutes to get informed about what the actual policies are. In which case, it's a better situation for Sanders since his policies are more popular.
    The difference is Sanders is a self proclaimed "democratic socialist" and would have stood by that. Republicans would have just substituted "democratic" for "radical". They may have played that card with Biden during the election but anyone with half a Brain, and any sense of Biden's career, knew that was BS.

    People have been conditioned with "Sanders can't win" as an article of faith. The left isn't immune to the effects of media, and the reality is every TV network and all the major papers were running stories trashing Sanders and praising Biden around the clock. But what actual evidence did they have for this mantra? I explained why I think the socialist attack is weak, but what else? Heads up polls... asking 'If the election was between Trump and Sanders, I'd vote for...' Sanders performed just as well as Biden on these polls. Sanders pulled *more* votes from Republicans than Biden in polls, which I'd attribute to the pro-worker platform Republicans and moderate Democrats reject. His policies had more support than Bidens.
    That is a matter of opinion and I stick to my point the party coalesced around Biden because a socialist would not have beat Trump. He was a proud "democratic socialist" I don't believe the majority of the current democratic partly is in-line with that.

    I absolutely, 100% believe that had it not been for the gross mishandling of the pandemic, Trump would have beaten Biden. That's the only thing that pushed him over the edge, look how even with that 72 million people still voted for him.
    I agree...that is such a sad statement about Americans.
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    Re: Could there have been election fraud?

    I'm inclined to agree with Tyson on this one, though I'm viewing this through a European lens so take my opinion with a pinch of salt. Socialist is a (weirdly) dirty word in the US and Sanders would have described himself thus. Rightly or wrongly, that would have damaged him. It's a shame because I'm probably more closely aligned politically with Sanders than I am with Biden but I do feel like Biden was the right choice purely on the basis that he had a better chance of winning.

    I agree that the media has played a large part in the perception of Sanders as some radical, commie pinko but it doesn't really matter where a perception has come from or whether it's accurate. What matters is that the perception exists.

    I had a similar conversation with my client here in Bristol. We're a strong Corbynite area and, as a strong Corbyn supporter, he was horrified when he was replaced with Starmer. He sees Starmer as a Blairite Stooge and a betrayal of the socialist values that the labour party is supposed to represent. The conversation went something like:-
    Client: "What does it matter if you're electable if you're a <insert four letter word here>?"
    Me: "What it does it matter whether you're a <insert four letter word here> or not if you're not electable?"
    Arguably, I guess we were both right.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Dec 22nd, 2020 at 09:42 AM.
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    Re: Could there have been election fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    I don't believe the majority of the current democratic partly is in-line with that.
    And that is the problem. Sanders biggest problem was not that Republicans misrepresented him - basically outright lied about him - but that Democrats did, both the party and the left-leaning media. If there hadn't been such a relentless campaign against Sanders from the (nominal) left then the country may have been educated about what his actual positions and policies were and how they would benefit people and the country. The Democratic party is not against Sanders because he's a socialist. They are against him because he wants to help ordinary people instead of the wealthy and that means that he take away from those Democrats. The fact that Democrats used the very same arguments as Republicans, e.g. "how will you pay for that" should tell you all you need to know. If you actually take Sanders positions and policies on their own merits, they are good for ordinary people and they are actually popular, so Democrats and Republicans alike appeal to emotion with "he socialist; socialist bad". Sanders has said countless times that his position aligns with the sort of programs and policies that are implemented in Scandinavian countries, then you get people like Ben Shapiro repeatedly calling him a socialist while also making videos about why Scandinavia isn't socialist.

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    Re: Could there have been election fraud?

    With Sanders, we need to change labels. It really doesn't matter what policies you support, Socialism is a dirty word in the US. It's not a word that people understand, they just know it's a dirty word. My old landlady was banging on about how bad Socialism is, but her very survival is based on socialist policies that got passed decades back. People in the US are strongly in favor of socialist policies, but only if they don't know they are socialist policies.
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    Re: Could there have been election fraud?

    Sanders isn't even a democratic socialist. His positions and policies mark him a social democrat. Just about every Western country is a social democracy, e.g. Australia, UK, all of Scandinavia, etc, etc.

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    Re: Could there have been election fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    Sanders isn't even a democratic socialist. His positions and policies mark him a social democrat. Just about every Western country is a social democracy, e.g. Australia, UK, all of Scandinavia, etc, etc.
    You might want to let him know that...he describes himself as one Maybe it is for shock value but I agree about his policies being those of a social democrat.
    Please remember next time...elections matter!

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    Re: Could there have been election fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    With Sanders, we need to change labels. It really doesn't matter what policies you support, Socialism is a dirty word in the US. It's not a word that people understand, they just know it's a dirty word. My old landlady was banging on about how bad Socialism is, but her very survival is based on socialist policies that got passed decades back. People in the US are strongly in favor of socialist policies, but only if they don't know they are socialist policies.
    I'd have to agree completely with that. Social Security and Medicaid are good but Welfare benefits are bad. lol We have several very large trade unions but some how that's not socialism. I blame the "USSR" , if your a socialist then your a communist.

  36. #36

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    Re: Could there have been election fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    The difference is Sanders is a self proclaimed "democratic socialist" and would have stood by that. Republicans would have just substituted "democratic" for "radical". They may have played that card with Biden during the election but anyone with half a Brain, and any sense of Biden's career, knew that was BS.
    But anyone with that level of knowledge is going to understand that when Sanders is said to be 'socialist', it means things like M4A and programs found in every other first world country, so it doesn't have the same kind of impact on the informed voter.

    That is a matter of opinion and I stick to my point the party coalesced around Biden because a socialist would not have beat Trump. He was a proud "democratic socialist" I don't believe the majority of the current democratic partly is in-line with that.
    It's certainly fine to be of the opinion that polling doesn't matter (polling conducted, by the way, when the airwaves were already saturated with calling him a socialist), but what's not ok is to declare it's some foregone conclusion and thinking Sanders could have won isn't grounded in just as much factual information and logical arguments as the argument for Biden.

    The majority of the Democratic party may not be in line with the "democratic socialist" label itself, but if you actually look at the *policies* Sanders advocates, it's a different story.

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    Re: Could there have been election fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    I'm inclined to agree with Tyson on this one, though I'm viewing this through a European lens so take my opinion with a pinch of salt. Socialist is a (weirdly) dirty word in the US and Sanders would have described himself thus. Rightly or wrongly, that would have damaged him. It's a shame because I'm probably more closely aligned politically with Sanders than I am with Biden but I do feel like Biden was the right choice purely on the basis that he had a better chance of winning.
    To repeat it once again, Republicans saturated the media with political advertisements talking about how Biden either was a socialist, or was controlled by socialists, is a radical leftist, etc, and either way, electing him will turn our country into a socialist one. What could they have said about Sanders that they didn't say about Biden? If people took the time to get informed, Sanders policies are more popular than Biden, so that favors him.

    That's why the 'socialist!' argument fails: either someone is uninformed, in which case the saturation ads describing Biden that way has the same effect, or someone is informed, in which case the more popular set of policies matters and how many opposite-party votes get attracted matters, and both of those favor Sanders.

    I agree that the media has played a large part in the perception of Sanders as some radical, commie pinko but it doesn't really matter where a perception has come from or whether it's accurate. What matters is that the perception exists.
    Right, and since Republicans ran ads everywhere around the clock calling Biden a socialist/puppet of radical left/about to turn the country into a communist hellscape, anyone who was going to be influenced in that manner received that message loud and clear, so Biden or Sanders doesn't matter to the person listening to either one be called socialist all day.
    Last edited by fafalone; Dec 22nd, 2020 at 07:56 PM.

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    Re: Could there have been election fraud?

    What could they have said about Sanders that they didn't say about Biden?
    To me that's the problem with Sanders, people would be more willing to believe those ads about Sanders. It's a lot easier sell that Sanders will "turn the country into a communist hellscape". Which made Biden a more attractive candidate.

    If people took the time to get informed
    Good luck with that, that's an awfully be ask.

    The Dem's weren't looking for the candidate with the best ideas/policies, it was strictly about beating Trump. And they did, so I got no complaints.

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    Re: Could there have been election fraud?

    To me that's the problem with Sanders, people would be more willing to believe those ads about Sanders. It's a lot easier sell that Sanders will "turn the country into a communist hellscape". Which made Biden a more attractive candidate.
    If that was the case, how do you explain the polling results during primary season? You'd expect significantly worse when comparing their heads-up poll results. You'd expect to see fewer people cross the aisle from Trump 2016. But neither of these were the case.

    This is what I meant about media bias and taking things as an article of faith. There's no objective facts to back it up. What objective measures there are, don't support the Biden conclusion. But still, every media outlet drilling it 24/7 turned it into blind faith... you're * absolutely convinced* that all that matters is some hypothetical voter that knows candidate positions well enough to know the Republicans are lying about Biden, but doesn't know or care to know what Sander's positions are, and would turn around and vote Trump instead. These people may not even exist, and there's definitely no evidence they outweigh the larger number of 2016 Trump voters that would switch to Sanders, but not Biden-- in numbers collected *before* the pandemic, so it's entirely reasonable to argue that number would only increase.

    Sanders was absolutely the more attractive candidate, but so many people just have blind faith in the "socialist" attack working on him, not working on Biden, and overcoming absolutely every other element. Even if you wanted to take it as true for the sake of argument, there's so many other reasons for people to vote for Sanders, there's no evidence that attack alone scares off sufficient people, as is reflected in polls. It's not based in evidence or logic.

    The Dem's weren't looking for the candidate with the best ideas/policies, it was strictly about beating Trump. And they did, so I got no complaints.
    They were one in the same. It's only the extensive campaign of faulty reasoning and evidence suppression that every TV network and major paper ran with 24/7 to trash one candidate and talk up another. That's why so many people have arguments that crumble to pieces when asked why they think Sanders would lose.

    I'm certainly glad Biden won, but there's two issues here. Hundreds of thousands of Americans are dead in a pandemic that Trump did everything in his power to *make worse*. When he wasn't making it actively worse, he was ignoring it. 72 million people voted for him anyway, the difference was 80,000 swing state votes. That it was so close is nightmare fuel. Had it not been for the pandemic response, it's *very* likely Trump would have won. Then, we got our asses handed to us down-ballot*. The strength of the top ticket drives down-ballot performance; we could have used a stronger top.



    * - Assuming it's legitimate, nobody seems to have actually noticed the case I made that it wasn't, which was the point of this thread lol

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    Re: Could there have been election fraud?

    Of course there is no proof, it's an impossibility. You keep presenting your theories over and over, as if the more times you say it the more true it becomes. Maybe your right but all any of us have is our theory. I don't believe Sanders would have won, you believe he would of. So be it.

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