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Thread: The US fragile democracy Exposed

  1. #121
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    When it comes to republicans there are 140 representatives and eleven Senators and counting
    Yeah, there's definitely a difference in scale between the two events. I think that's mainly because the stakes are higher. Like you said: seventy plus million Trump supporters.

    The scariest thing I can think of is that it's now going to be extremely difficult for a future Republican to win the presidency without playing to the worst of his base... so that's what they're going to do. They no longer have a choice.
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    I agree, but they don't pale beside what the Democratic party is capable of doing, particularly if they had been taken over by a populist as the GOP has been.
    Heaven forbid, the elites and their sycophants cannot tolerate the masses having any voice.

    I never thought that the UK had "Pink Tory" folks in any great numbers. A U.K.-born friend tells me that "No, those are Lavender Tory suburbanites. They've 'got theirs' so they are free to SJW all day long while actually looking down their toffee noses. In the U.S. we call them 'Karens' or 'Brunchers' and they voted in great numbers for Biden-Harris."

  3. #123
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    Yeah, there's definitely a difference in scale between the two events. I think that's mainly because the stakes are higher. Like you said: seventy plus million Trump supporters.

    The scariest thing I can think of is that it's now going to be extremely difficult for a future Republican to win the presidency without playing to the worst of his base... so that's what they're going to do. They no longer have a choice.
    A lot of the headlines I'm reading discuss "civil war" in the republican party over just that. The party of just a decade ago would not have tolerated Trump. Now he is more popular than Reagan. You may be right there could be no going back.
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  4. #124
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Pence sure is in a tough spot

    If it wasn't for Trump he wouldn't be. He would have no more to do with the election in his role to confirm the votes than the emcee opening the envelopes at the Oscars. Trump expects him to pull some kind of rabbit out of his hat though. He was scheduled for an overseas trip the next day but that is canceled. After fours years of his head up Trump's ass, I think with dreams of a future presidential run, Trump will excoriate him in public and throw him under the bus for declaring Biden President.
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  5. #125
    Super Moderator dday9's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    What I personally don't understand is what Republican's think would happen if by some wild outcome the Electoral College votes are rejected.

    Constitutionally, wouldn't it go back to the house to specify an interim president while the votes are being contested? In that case, Pelosi would be the presumptive nominee and I can't imagine many of these same Republicans throwing a tantrum over the election would prefer Pelosi over Biden.

  6. #126
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    The scariest thing I can think of is that it's now going to be extremely difficult for a future Republican to win the presidency without playing to the worst of his base... so that's what they're going to do. They no longer have a choice.
    I think it will happen once, but only once. I believe that Trump is unique in his lack of a moral compass. His is not a principled stand on this or on anything else. Anybody who tries to mimic him is unlikely to be able to pull it off. They'll either be so explicit they repel any moderates, or they'll eventually crack. Either way would cause them to lose badly, at which point the party will try to right itself.

    Since this conversation has been going on so fast, I'm a bit behind things. One point to make is that all studies that I have seen suggest an increasing polarization in the US. The percentage of the population that overlaps in beliefs is vanishing fast. However, a study published in The Economist (referenced in The Economist, but published elsewhere, naturally) showed that the Democratic party hasn't changed all that much. It's kind of a broad party with plenty of internal divisions. It meandered to the right, overall, but largely because it broadened such that the average shifted right. The Republican party, meanwhile, has narrowed as well as shifting right. That's a real problem for them. In this state, the party closed their primary to make sure that only the sufficiently loyal voted, which was done deliberately to shift the candidates to the right (there was some infighting between local bigwigs, but that's more detail than people care about). That works fine in a state like Idaho, where the R is going to win, pretty much regardless of what they say or do. That doesn't work well for the country, because the R candidate ends up becoming toxic to the middle. Trump escaped that because he isn't a conservative. He isn't anything. I don't believe that he can be repeated successfully by somebody who has actual principles. I also think that the Democrats are currently not very well defined, while the Republicans are becoming increasingly well defined to the point of having loyalty tests for everything.
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  7. #127
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by dday9 View Post

    Constitutionally, wouldn't it go back to the house to specify an interim president while the votes are being contested? In that case, Pelosi would be the presumptive nominee and I can't imagine many of these same Republicans throwing a tantrum over the election would prefer Pelosi over Biden.
    My understanding is as yours is: Pelosi becomes the president in the interim.
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  8. #128
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by dday9 View Post
    What I personally don't understand is what Republican's think would happen if by some wild outcome the Electoral College votes are rejected.

    Constitutionally, wouldn't it go back to the house to specify an interim president while the votes are being contested? In that case, Pelosi would be the presumptive nominee and I can't imagine many of these same Republicans throwing a tantrum over the election would prefer Pelosi over Biden.
    I thought the very last step, assuming all else fails - meaning the electoral fails to declare a winner, it goes to the state delegates and I thought republicans have 29 giving them the win. I'm not 100% on that but I think that is the only path left to Trump.
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  9. #129
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    I think it will happen once, but only once. I believe that Trump is unique in his lack of a moral compass. His is not a principled stand on this or on anything else. Anybody who tries to mimic him is unlikely to be able to pull it off. They'll either be so explicit they repel any moderates, or they'll eventually crack. Either way would cause them to lose badly, at which point the party will try to right itself.
    That's a pretty good observation...they threw away the mold when they made Trump. Maybe if there really is an anti-Christ he could do it
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Heaven forbid, the elites and their sycophants cannot tolerate the masses having any voice.
    Populism is nothing to do with representing the masses, it is to do with exploiting them.

    I believe that Trump is unique in his lack of a moral compass
    I admire your optimism.

    I don't believe that he can be repeated successfully by somebody who has actual principles
    I agree with that though

    Trumps amorality is not unique. I do think he represents a perfect storm of amorality, influence, funding and charisma but don't think he's the only perfect storm out there.
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  11. #131
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Well, I guess I could clarify by saying that Trump has a peculiar flavor of lack of moral compass....though with a few billion people in the world, unique is hard to come by.

    Trump cares about something. Trump cares about adulation of Trump. He'll do whatever gets him more of that, and that's the only guiding principle he appears to have. Plenty of people have egos, they just have some balance. He has no balance. It's all Trump all the time. Anybody else MIGHT mimic that, but he seems to have a pathology, which is usually self destructive...unless you've been given hundreds of millions of dollars and get bailed out whenever you lose the money. He never had to have principles, so he doesn't. Others would, and those principles, whatever they are, will keep them from being Trump.
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Outside of Trump himself and a small clique around him, I don't think anyone is genuinely seeking to overthrow the democratic process.
    This is not a small number. He draws thousands to every rally and they cheer when he lies to them. If the Rep's had control of both houses now, I still think he would fail at overturning the election but it would be close. With just a little more decline in political morals, 12yrs from now with another Trump type leader, I think it could happen. So fix the system while you can.

  13. #133
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Trump has a peculiar flavor
    I... just... how do you know this?!

    Trump cares about something. Trump cares about adulation of Trump.
    Yeah, I'm with you there. It's textbook narcissism but turned up to 11... or more like 13. Speaking of which, I now think the chances that Trump will actually have to be dragged out of the Whitehouse by the CIA could well be better than 50% now.

    He draws thousands to every rally
    You're right. To clarify, when I referred to a small clique I was referring to a small clique of politicians/lawyers etc. that surround him. People who actually have his ear. I think the number of them is actually fairly small and most of the characters like Cruz, Pence etc. are just posturing and positioning, they know full well they can't overturn the election and aren't genuinely trying to. I do think there's a very small clique, though, who will genuinely burn it all down to reverse the result and think it's actually a possibility.

    The crowds who attend the rallies? Yeah, half them still think it's genuine possibility.
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  14. #134
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    I... just... how do you know this?!
    He's orange Peep flavor....don't ask.
    Code:
    Yeah, I'm with you there.  It's textbook narcissism but turned up to 11... or more like 13.  Speaking of which, I now think the chances that Trump will actually have to be dragged out of the Whitehouse by the CIA could well be better than 50% now.
    There's a show that I listen to (radio, not TV, so listen is correct), that said that Trump had tried to barricade himself on the second floor of the White House, but ran out of breath, so he's now barricaded on the third step.

    I liked that joke.
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Trump has charisma? Either I missed your sarcasm, you were thinking of somebody else, or you need professional help. Or maybe you're a North Korean dictator.

  16. #136
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Sure, Trump has plenty of charisma. It's his stock in trade. Loads of people follow him. That's what charisma is all about. It's not looks, it's the ability to get people to follow, and he sure does that.
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    The knot in my stomach over what Trump may pull eased a little...as of this post twenty-four republican senators have said publicly they do not support the challenge. Trump still has the military option I guess. An attempt at Marshall law? Drop bombs on Iran and declare he needs to stay in charge? Have Biden arrested for treason in connection with Hunter Biden collusion with China? I will not breath easy until January 20th.
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  18. #138
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Trump has charisma? Either I missed your sarcasm, you were thinking of somebody else, or you need professional help. Or maybe you're a North Korean dictator.
    Gosh...he has been in movies, had the big time TV show, was a by-word for being rich. Things may have changed now but he was a big deal in the world of the "rich and famous". He better stay away from Scotland

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    The knot in my stomach over what Trump may pull eased a little...as of this post twenty-four republican senators have said publicly they do not support the challenge. Trump still has the military option I guess. An attempt at Marshall law? Drop bombs on Iran and declare he needs to stay in charge? Have Biden arrested for treason in connection with Hunter Biden collusion with China? I will not breath easy until January 20th.
    Here's a bit more pepto for you.... this was a comment on a friend's FB feed...
    [name redacted] my sister, the lawyer, really calmed my nerves. On Jan 20th we will either have President Biden or acting President Pelosi. Thereís no way Moscow Mitch will want a president Pelosi so heíll put an end to the steal the vote. If the Senate votes against the electoral college it goes right back to congress.
    So... yeah given that the Republican leadership, Mitch & even Graham have been calling for the acceptance (and when those two are calling for something against Trump's wishes...) of the votes... you know that the rest of the party isn't going to be too far behind. That's why - this time - I'm not worried about it, and why i believe it's really all about posturing and not really about overturning the election itself.
    By the end of the day, and it'll be a long day, it'll be over. I think it'll take longer for the House to work things out, but it's also larger, and there's more dissension there. But it will be resolved by the 10pm news. And we'll have a certified President-Elect Biden by the time the nightly news comes on on the East Coast.

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Trump has charisma? Either I missed your sarcasm, you were thinking of somebody else, or you need professional help. Or maybe you're a North Korean dictator.
    You don't create a cult like his without having charisma. Do you think that the average person doesn't find just about every cult leader repulsive, yet they gather people around them willing to die for them? This is pretty much exactly why I don't take anyone seriously when they talk about "Trump Derangement Syndrome" when talking about those who oppose Trump. Look at where he's taken America. It's almost like those who vehemently opposed him were aware of the depths of depravity he was capable of. The derangement is with those who believe his every word, to the point where they think that Fox News is liberal, nay communist, media.

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Trump has charisma?
    Others have already answered (and I suspect your tongue was at least a little bit in your cheek with the question) but yeah. It's a weird kind of incoherent, rambling and strangely orange charisma that I honestly can't understand myself but you've only got to look at one of his rallies to see that he's got something.

    to the point where they think that Fox News is liberal, nay communist, media
    They are now. Ever since they acknowledged the Biden win they're clearly part of the deep state conspiracy. Newsmax, that's where you can find the real truth.
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    Super Moderator dday9's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    They are now. Ever since they acknowledged the Biden win they're clearly part of the deep state conspiracy. Newsmax, that's where you can find the real truth.
    Fox News was getting heat ever since calling Nevada (or Arizona, can't remember which) for Biden early on.

    Many Republicans saw it as an intentional gamble to call it super early in favor of Biden to try and break away from Trump.

    Here, I'm a fool who actually thought that they saw the data and had enough information to call the state for Biden. Obviously the devil Chinese Communist Party planted wrong think in me.

  23. #143
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Obviously the devil Chinese Communist Party planted wrong think in me.
    For a lot of republicans Faux news is the real devil...
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  24. #144
    PowerPoster techgnome's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Once again Georgia is in the hotseat... one Senate seat has been called... and the other is too close to be called and it's coming down to the absentee ballots... really getting down to the wire down there.


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  25. #145
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    The Donald went down to Georgia
    He was looking for some votes to steal
    He was in a bind
    Cause he was 11,000 behind
    And was desperate to make a deal.
    When he came across this Sec of State
    Stickin' to the truth and gettin' all hot.
    And the Donald jumped up on a campaign stump
    And said, "Brad, let me tell you off."

    "I guess you didn't know it, but I won this state, too
    And if you'd care to change some votes, there'll be a pardon for you.
    Now you fiddle the votes, Brad, and give this Devil his due
    I'll let you fiddle them bold, and lose your soul
    'Cause I'm just better than you."

    Then Brad said, "Listen here, Donny, that might be a crime
    I won't take your bet, your gonna regret
    'Cause I'm about to drop this dime.

    CHORUS (someone might do better)
    Raffensperger record your calls, although it might be hard
    Cause Hell's broke loose in Georgia and The Donald cheats at cards.
    And if you win you won't get no stinkin' ode
    But if you lose, the Devil gets your soul.

    The Donald fabricated up a case and said, "I'll make a show"
    And vitriol flew from his moistened lips as he laid the elections low
    And he pulled the wool across our eyes and said that somethin's amiss
    And a band of Trumpists joined in, and tried the votes to dismiss.

    When the Donald finished
    Ol' Brad he said, "Well, you're a total loon ol' son
    But pour yourself into that chair right there
    And let me show you what's been done.

    "Trump is in the White House", run, Biden, run!
    Ol' Trump is as orange as the smoky sun.
    Giuliani's in the dog house not throwin' out votes
    Voters does this dog hunt? No, man, no.

    The Donald lost his head cause he can't believe defeat
    And he laid a putrid egg on the phone for Brad to repeat
    Ol' Brad said, "Donald just come on back if you ever wanna chat again
    I done counted them thrice, you don of a *****
    And the vote is what has been. He said,

    "Trump is in the White House", run, Biden, run!
    Ol' Trump is as orange as the smoky sun.
    Giuliani's in the dog house not throwin' out votes
    Voters does this dog hunt? No, man, no.

    Still not totally thrilled with the first line of the chorus, but it'll do.
    Last edited by Shaggy Hiker; Jan 6th, 2021 at 01:03 PM.
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  26. #146
    PowerPoster techgnome's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    hahaha.... I'm stealing that....

    -tg
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  27. #147
    Super Moderator dday9's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    I am genuinely surprised with the Ossoff/Perdue race. Not so much with the Warnock/Loeffler race.

  28. #148
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Trump is speaking to a DC protest crowd. Of the news networks on my cable only Faux news is covering it. Republicans would say that just shows the bias of the liberal media against Trump. Democrats would say why cover non-stop lies.
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  29. #149
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    Trump is speaking to a DC protest crowd. Of the news networks on my cable only Faux news is covering it. Republicans would say that just shows the bias of the liberal media against Trump. Democrats would say why cover non-stop lies.
    Could well end up being an incitement to violence, too.
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  30. #150
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Could well end up being an incitement to violence, too.
    He has already asked them to walk to the White House...just a few minutes ago. I wouldn't be surprised that when he is done lying he asks them to march to the White House for real. It is just across the way.

    He is just spewing lies and hate...

    They are on the way to the White House.
    Last edited by TysonLPrice; Jan 6th, 2021 at 01:41 PM.
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  31. #151
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    The joint session of congress just adjourned to debate Arizona's count being objected to. Here we go...

    Pence issued a letter a few minutes before the session saying he would NOT try and reject electors. Good for him!

    I never thought I would be proud of Mitch McConnell...he is excoriating on the Senate floor the attempt to reject the electors. He is really truly against this effort. No names mentioned, just a talking down to.
    Last edited by TysonLPrice; Jan 6th, 2021 at 01:40 PM.
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  32. #152
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    The Donald went down to Georgia
    You, sir, are a comedy genius



    March to or March on? It's an important distinction and involves pitchforks.
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  33. #153
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    McConnel has spoken more forcefully than I had expected. I'm impressed. Wish he'd been so clear eyed, earlier than this.
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  34. #154
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    By the way, that song was written freehand into the post. I then copied it to a friend of mine, and she said she'd already read a shorter version on FB. So, in case anybody is wondering: Those lyrics are a VBF original, though I recognize that the opening lines are pretty doggone obvious.
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  35. #155

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    They have stopped the hearings because the Capital has been breached. Trump has his riot. What a bag of scum he is.

    btw - That song is hilarious

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Meh, looks "mostly peaceful" to me. Just saying.

    But yeah, this is a massive cluster-f, and the fact that there didn't seem to be a plan to handle this type of protest is embarrassing.

    I'm severely a-political, so I have to watch this with the volume off on most stations so that I don't have to hear people who were vehemently opposed to the National Guard being used after weeks of ongoing summer riots now begging for them to be used here after only a couple hours, and vice-versa from the other side of things.

    They need to get everyone cleared out and move on. After all, it doesn't matter who sits in the cockpit when all the controls are just there for show.

  37. #157
    Super Moderator dday9's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by OptionBase1 View Post
    They need to get everyone cleared out and move on. After all, it doesn't matter who sits in the cockpit when all the controls are just there for show.
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  38. #158
    PowerPoster Arnoutdv's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Whatís happening??
    This canít be true.
    Seems that people only believe in democracy if they win and winning is having a majority.
    In my opinion a democracy is not about winning or loosing but having a representation of the people in the government

  39. #159
    Frenzied Member
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by Arnoutdv View Post
    Whatís happening??
    This canít be true.
    Seems that people only believe in democracy if they win and winning is having a majority.
    In my opinion a democracy is not about winning or loosing but having a representation of the people in the government
    "I didn't win so it must have been rigged". Unfortunately, Donald Trump is only plagiarizing that sentiment from some very recent losing candidates...

    This looks like it is going to get very ugly very soon, and I hope no one dies. The police are starting to get serious.

  40. #160
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    In 1972 I joined the Navy and I felt a deep sense of pride I'd never felt before...I had that same feeling tonight when I saw the leaders of congress convene after Trump's insurrection.
    Last edited by TysonLPrice; Jan 6th, 2021 at 08:26 PM.
    Please remember next time...elections matter!

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