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Thread: The US fragile democracy Exposed

  1. #81
    Super Moderator dday9's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    In other words, what do democrats have to do with Trump's supporters falling for his con?
    I can't speak for wes, but you cannot deny that it was the media (not Democrats per se) who propped up Trump. The amount of air time that they gave him in 2015/6 because of the ratings he brought in was ridiculous. The media and Trump's rise to power was essentially a circular dependency: Trump relied on the increase air time (both good and bad) to prop up his credibility as a serious presidential candidate whereas the media relied on Trump to continue pulling in the high ratings.

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by dday9 View Post
    I can't speak for wes, but you cannot deny that it was the media (not Democrats per se) who propped Trump. The amount of air time that they gave him in 2015/6 because of the ratings he brought in was ridiculous. The media and Trump's rise to power was essentially a circular dependency: Trump relied on the increase air time (both good and bad) to prop up his credibility as a serious presidential candidate whereas the media relied on Trump to continue pulling in the high ratings.
    I can't deny that...they loved hating that clown and he got billions in free air time. There was not so much of that the second time. Now the liberal media rarely covers his press conferences now
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  3. #83
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    For the last few years Faux news called China "China"...now that they are fixated on the Hunter Biden China connection they no longer say China. Any reference now is "Communist China". I think we are moving into the next stage of Faux news reporting which will be months of Communist Chinese collusion by the democrats. Payback for Russia I guess. Here we go again.
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Well, many Republicans in congress are willing to throw out the election results (not certify the electoral votes), while presenting no actual proof of any misconduct. Because the Dems control the house this will result in nothing but noise. BUT what if the Reps had control of both houses of congress? How safe would you feel? Would democracy survive? The politicians seem ready to throw it away if it would suit their needs. What would stop them? I think now that we've reached this level of politics the Dems would also be capable of this, if they were being lead by a Democratic Trump 2.0 type of person.

    I truly think this is possible and this loophole needs to be closed. Counting on politicians to do the "right" thing, hmmm??

  5. #85
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    "Nearly a dozen Republican senators and senators-elect announced Saturday they will vote against counting electoral votes next week when Congress is expected to certify President-elect Joe Biden's victory -- despite no credible evidence suggesting widespread voter fraud in the 2020 election"

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/02/polit...ege/index.html

    That is just stunning to me. Ever since the election republicans have been questioning the election and losing their false claims in the courts left and right. The claims got more outrageous by the week. Now 11 senators, led by Ted Cruz, want a ten day audit held about the election. Why? Because of all the allegations and questions. I guess in a way it is brilliant. Make all kinds of false allegations and then say because of all the allegations that have been made call for investigations.

    Amazing; but a terrible blow to the country. It is truly scary what could have happened if the republicans had the house.
    Last edited by TysonLPrice; Jan 3rd, 2021 at 04:38 AM.
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    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    I guess in a way it is brilliant. Make all kinds of false allegations and then say because of all the allegations that have been made call for investigations.
    I suggest that everyone allege that Ted Cruz has been laundering money for drug cartels. I also suggest that someone follow Cruz around with a loudspeaker playing Trumps comments about him during the Republican primaries. In particular, the claims that Cruz fixed the election in Texas.

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    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    After watching some of the weekend political commentary I have come away with a different perspective. Forget the considerations of Democratic principles, how the world perceives the American Democratic experiment, and just plain honest human interactions...what the republicans involved in this pseudo coup are doing makes perfect sense. They are jockeying to become the heirs of Trump's base. Seventy-four plus million votes is a nice catch. To them that is very much worth trashing any perceptions of American democracy being an example to the world...it is a naked power grab.
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    After watching some of the weekend political commentary I have come away with a different perspective. Forget the considerations of Democratic principles, how the world perceives the American Democratic experiment, and just plain honest human interactions...what the republicans involved in this pseudo coup are doing makes perfect sense. They are jockeying to become the heirs of Trump's base. Seventy-four plus million votes is a nice catch. To them that is very much worth trashing any perceptions of American democracy being an example to the world...it is a naked power grab.
    Yeah, Trump has set the political code of conduct bar to a new low, much lower. But it's obvious that many politician are eager to perpetuate this new low and they seem more than willing to take it even lower.

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    PowerPoster techgnome's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    People are freaking out over the upcoming certification like it's something new... it isn't... it's happened before... 4 years ago... And I'm sure even then that wasn't the first time that happened either.
    Here's what's going to happen on Wed: There will be a join session, the session will start, a House Representative will raise an objection, and a Senator will concur -- we all know who they will be. The session will be suspended, the House and Senate will move to their respective chambers, and spend the next few hours debating the issue. After a few hours, they will finally break, re-join the join session, certify the results, and be done with it. It's all about posturing. It's not about Trump. It's all about jockying for power over the next 4 years.

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    I'm not freaking out over this, as I said in a previous post, the Dems control the House so this is just political noise. What worries me is the political code of conduct bar is starting to reach such lows that some time, maybe in the near future, when one party holds the majority in both houses of congress, what would stop them from over turning an election. Their morals? Their love of democracy? Why leave this loophole? I feel all claims of voting irregularity should be handled through the courts. Sure the courts could be corrupt but I have more faith in the judicial system then in politicians.

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post
    People are freaking out over the upcoming certification like it's something new... it isn't... it's happened before... 4 years ago... And I'm sure even then that wasn't the first time that happened either.
    Here's what's going to happen on Wed: There will be a join session, the session will start, a House Representative will raise an objection, and a Senator will concur -- we all know who they will be. The session will be suspended, the House and Senate will move to their respective chambers, and spend the next few hours debating the issue. After a few hours, they will finally break, re-join the join session, certify the results, and be done with it. It's all about posturing. It's not about Trump. It's all about jockying for power over the next 4 years.

    -tg
    I agree with wes4dbt...But first this "DID NOT" happen four years ago. What did happen is nothing in comparison. Most importantly the attempt was condemned by the democrats in leadership. It is the same silence we have "heard" for four years coming from all but a few republicans.

    What you say is no big deal is only because the democrats have the house. Otherwise the republicans could have, and are willing to, steal the democratic election of the USA. I don't see how people cannot be freaking out over that.
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    What you say is no big deal is only because the democrats have the house
    I think that's the crux. The issue is not so much that the Republicans have chosen to do this, the issue is that your system does not intrinsically prevent this.

    Realistically, though, I doubt anyone in the GOP (outside Trumps immediate circle) would pursue this if there was any chance of it succeeding. TG is right that this is not about politics, it's about theatre, and I doubt they'd want to be attached to a coup that actually succeeded. The worry is, though, that as long as the loop hole exists, sooner or later a Trump will try and drive a bus through it and possibly succeed.

    For the record, I know it's fun to hate on Trump and the GOP but I don't think this is exclusive to him or them. The Dems would be equally capable of this, as would any independent you care to name. Trump chose to usurp the GOP, but it was a toss up and he could have chosen any party. So could the next nutter. That's why it's so important to address the problems in your system.
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post
    There will be a join session,

    -tg
    They're going to do an inner join on "looney", which will return several records. They will then split into a parallel processes, then one will join on the other process, but at that point, they'll go back to a JOINT session of Congress....where all the joints will be creaking and popping, not smoking....except for Ted Cruz...he may be smoking something.
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Realistically, though, I doubt anyone in the GOP (outside Trumps immediate circle) would pursue this if there was any chance of it succeeding.
    I really disagree with that...they have been complicit with every dubious and anti-democratic effort Trump has made in the last four years. What makes you think for a second they all of a sudden have morals.

    The Dems would be equally capable of this
    I also have to seriously disagree with that. There is a historic pattern of the republicans trying to suppress the vote. Trying to disenfranchise anyone not republican. Show me one example of democrats doing that.
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    I also have to seriously disagree with that. There is a historic pattern of the republicans trying to suppress the vote. Trying to disenfranchise anyone not republican. Show me one example of democrats doing that.
    Literally any map redistricting. It doesn't matter if you're red or blue, who ever is in charge will do their best to redistrict the map to disenfranchise the opposing party's vote.

    On the federal level there is the issue of including undocumented immigrants in the census. This would have the side effect of disproportionately granting federal funding to blue states as well as potentially adding additional representation in the House of Representatives.

    If you genuinely believe that one side attempts to suppress votes whereas the other side doesn't then you need to take off your partisan blinders. Both sides do.

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    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Literally any map redistricting. It doesn't matter if you're red or blue, who ever is in charge will do their best to redistrict the map to disenfranchise the opposing party's vote.
    I totally disagree with that. Gerrymandering might dilute the vote but it doesn't stop you from casting a vote. The republicans make concerted efforts to take traditionally democrat votes off the rolls. Show me where democrats are trying to do that.

    On the federal level there is the issue of including undocumented immigrants in the census.
    Counting all "persons" is baked right into the constitution.

    This would have the side effect of disproportionately granting federal funding to blue states as well as potentially adding additional representation in the House of Representatives.
    And how many voters are disenfranchised with that? Following the constitution. The republicans are the ones trying to suppress the census counts. I rest my case.
    Last edited by TysonLPrice; Jan 4th, 2021 at 11:44 AM.
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    Super Moderator dday9's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    I totally disagree with that. Gerrymandering might dilute the vote but it doesn't stop you from casting a vote.
    "I totally disagree because the party I support supports map redistricting." That is basically what I just read there.

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    Counting all "persons" is baked right into the constitution ... And how many voters are disenfranchised with that? Following the constitution. The republicans are the ones trying to suppress the census counts. I rest my case.
    Are you seriously arguing that your interpretation of the text in constitution is not debatable? Are you really that bullheaded? I'm not even making a case for or against the census issue, just stating that it would have the side effect of democrats disenfranchising red state voters after you asked for one example.

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    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    "I totally disagree because the party I support supports map redistricting." That is basically what I just read there.
    Think of it in the context of my statement.

    There is a historic pattern of the republicans trying to suppress the vote. Trying to disenfranchise anyone not republican. Show me one example of democrats doing that.
    You gave gerrymandering as an example. I'm saying that does not stop anyone from voting. It may dilute the vote but you still can vote. The difference is you are on the voting rolls. Republicans want you OFF the rolls.

    Are you seriously arguing that your interpretation of the text in constitution is not debatable? Are you really that bullheaded? I'm not even making a case for or against the census issue, just stating that it would have the side effect of democrats disenfranchising red state voters after you asked for one example.
    I said noting about my interpretation of the text in constitution is not debatable. I said counting all "persons" is in the constitution. Are you saying it isn't? You can debate "all persons" doesn't mean what I think it does but my pointing it out doesn't say it is not debatable in any way. Or at least it wasn't until republicans saw an opportunity to disenfranchise another group of people.
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    On the federal level there is the issue of including undocumented immigrants in the census. This would have the side effect of disproportionately granting federal funding to blue states as well as potentially adding additional representation in the House of Representatives.
    Not sure what that has to do with voter suppression. Besides a state's color isn't permanent. Though I do think that if the Democrats thought suppressing minority voters would help them win they would find a way to justify it.

    It will be interesting to see if congress will address the weaknesses in our election systems that Trump has exposed or turn a blind eye in hopes they can exploit them at a later time.

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    I'm with DD on this. Gerrymandering is disenfranchisement just as voter suppression is, it's just a different (and more subtle) form. If you deliberately gerrymander a Republican from a swing state into a neighboring Democratic fortress state, you are disenfranchising them. You may not be taking away their vote but you are taking away their agency. There's no material difference.

    .they have been complicit with every dubious and anti-democratic effort Trump has made in the last four years. What makes you think for a second they all of a sudden have morals.
    I think I probably wasn't very clear in my meaning. If they thought this could succeed and that they could come through it without looking like they were openly subverting democracy then, yeah, they'd absolutely go for it. The cost of winning that motion at this juncture is to go down in the history books as the person who subverted democracy in the nation that holds it most dear. The calculation if you know you're going to lose the motion is that it'll be a storm in a teacup that'll generate some noise and interest in your career now but will ultimately have been forgotten in a decade's time. That's the hope - it'll be remembered 4 years from now and forgotten 10 years from now. That's also why it's so important that we don't forget this.

    The Dems would be equally capable of this
    I think I probably wasn't very clear on this either. The Democratic party as it exists and is led today would not do this, you're right. But neither would the Republican party of 6 years ago. That it is the Republican party doing it now isn't a reflection on the institution, it's a reflection of the fact that Trump subverted it and turned it into something new. And the Democratic party is no more immune to charlatans subverting it than the Republican party is (or was). It just happened to the Republican party first.

    Nothing I'm saying should excuse Trump, Cruz or any of the other characters playing this out. But tilting at Trump and the GOP isn't going to fix this or guard against it in the future. The solution is to re-examine the system. Failure to do that will leave you exposed to the next charlatan and there's no guarantee which direction they will come from.
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    I'm also with DD on gerrymandering. That is done SOLELY to improve the leverage of one party at the expense of the other. That means that it enhances the voting power of one party at the expense of people who don't support that party, and that is certainly a form of disenfranchisement.

    It would take a constitutional amendment to truly solve the gerrymandering, but it could be done with two sentences. The first would be: "Except where the border of a congressional district follows the border of the state, all districts will be convex geometric shapes." The second sentence would be a bit more fluid, but would be there to allow for a tolerance factor such that individual buildings are not bisected by the lines.

    There are other rules that would also work, but this one would be readily enforceable, and would totally work.

    As for the census, it isn't just that "all people" is written into the constitution, it has also been consistently interpreted by the Supremes to mean "all people". The reason for this language is rooted in our racist legacy, as so much is, but because of that same legacy, the meaning of those words has been nailed down pretty solidly to mean exactly what it says. It VERY deliberately does not say "all citizens", and is not to be interpreted in that sense. Now, established case law could change, but that question probably is too well established for any of the Supremes to consider changing it. Therefore, I don't believe that those words are subject to interpretation, and the Republicans are the ones who feel poorly done by that.
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    As for the census, it isn't just that "all people" is written into the constitution, it has also been consistently interpreted by the Supremes to mean "all people". The reason for this language is rooted in our racist legacy, as so much is, but because of that same legacy, the meaning of those words has been nailed down pretty solidly to mean exactly what it says. It VERY deliberately does not say "all citizens", and is not to be interpreted in that sense. Now, established case law could change, but that question probably is too well established for any of the Supremes to consider changing it. Therefore, I don't believe that those words are subject to interpretation, and the Republicans are the ones who feel poorly done by that.
    There's a reason it doesn't include the word "citizens" or even the word "free" ... because they wanted salves to be counted as well... even at a 5/7 or 3/5 or what ever it was rate... States in the north only wanted citizens or free persons to be counted... because they knew that would put them at an advantage... southern states wanted slaves to be counted because they knew that would give them an advantage... so the jockeying for power and the pushing and pulling of two sides started before the country was even fully formed... it's baked into our DNA it would seem.

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Yeah, that's what I was talking about. The south didn't have enough population to protect their interests (slavery) if only citizens were counted. Even at the time of the writing of the constitution, it was well recognized that slavery would become an increasing source of friction.
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    I also have to seriously disagree with that. There is a historic pattern of the republicans trying to suppress the vote. Trying to disenfranchise anyone not republican. Show me one example of democrats doing that.
    They did it to Bernie Sanders and his supporters in the last Democratic primaries. There were several instances that I can recall of the number of polling places being reduced at a time when they should have been increased. The Democratic party well knows that increased turnout favours the more left-wing position so, when they want their centrist preference to beat a genuine progressive, they suppressed the vote. When their centrist candidate was up against a Republican, then they wanted better turnout. I don't think that the Democratic party committed fraud in the general election and I don't necessarily think they committed fraud in the primaries but there were definitely some dirty tricks going on in the primaries. The Democrats only look good because the Republicans are so very bad. That said, for those who say that their dirty tricks in the primaries are evidence that there would have been dirty tricks in the general too, consider the fact that Democratic primaries are run by the Democratic party, making it far easier for the Democratic party to sway the result. It's far harder to sway a general election that is out of your control to begin with and the other side is watching the whole time too.

  25. #105
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    They did it to Bernie Sanders and his supporters in the last Democratic primaries. There were several instances that I can recall of the number of polling places being reduced at a time when they should have been increased. The Democratic party well knows that increased turnout favours the more left-wing position so, when they want their centrist preference to beat a genuine progressive, they suppressed the vote. When their centrist candidate was up against a Republican, then they wanted better turnout. I don't think that the Democratic party committed fraud in the general election and I don't necessarily think they committed fraud in the primaries but there were definitely some dirty tricks going on in the primaries. The Democrats only look good because the Republicans are so very bad. That said, for those who say that their dirty tricks in the primaries are evidence that there would have been dirty tricks in the general too, consider the fact that Democratic primaries are run by the Democratic party, making it far easier for the Democratic party to sway the result. It's far harder to sway a general election that is out of your control to begin with and the other side is watching the whole time too.
    I am talking about stopping people from voting...not gerrymandering, not party politics, not philosophical differences. My God the republicans are literally trying to throw out the votes of hundreds of thousands of people tomorrow. They have spent the last several weeks at failed attempts to do the same. Geez...they wanted to throw out all the votes in Pennsylvania. These comments being made about democrats pale beside what republicans are going to try and do tomorrow.

    The leader of the republican party was just taped trying to get Georgia voting officials to throw the election to the republicans. Is that not disenfranchising voters? The moron was already impeached for political interference and made another "perfect" phone call
    Last edited by TysonLPrice; Jan 5th, 2021 at 05:14 AM.
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    These comments being made about democrats pale beside what republicans are going to try and do tomorrow.
    I agree, but they don't pale beside what the Democratic party is capable of doing, particularly if they had been taken over by a populist as the GOP has been.

    The GOP's recent behaviour has been awful and that phone call, yeah, almost certainly criminal. We shouldn't hesitate to condemn all of that stuff. But don't fool yourself that the Dem (or any independent party for that matter) would somehow be exempt from this when self interest cut in.

    On a related note, I now really think Trump needs to be prosecuted after he leaves office. Before I was sort of divided and thought such a prosecution might risk consolidating his base via a martyrdom rhetoric. But at this point he has straight up tried to corrupt your democracy and the risk of failure to prosecute this outstrips the risk of doing so. And for anyone who still thinks Trump is seeking truth: he specifically asked for 11 780 votes; the exact number that would be required for him to win. He was not seeking truth, he was seeking victory.
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    I agree, but they don't pale beside what the Democratic party is capable of doing, particularly if they had been taken over by a populist as the GOP has been.
    That is a pretty broad statement. You could say it would pale beside what anyone is "capable" of. I'm talking about what republicans are actually doing RIGHT NOW and you are bringing up what you think democrats "may" be capable of. Two different things in my opinion.
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    [QUOTE=FunkyDexter;5505294]The GOP's recent behaviour has been awful and that phone call, yeah, certainly criminal. /QUOTE]

    There... I fixed that for you.
    You're welcome.

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    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    That is a pretty broad statement. You could say it would pale beside what anyone is "capable" of.
    Yes! That's exactly what I'm saying!

    Don't get me wrong, I absolutely get your outrage at the GOP's current actions. I share that outrage and I think those actions border on treason. (I'm only qualifying that with "bordering on" so that TG can have some fun fixing it for me - though his miss-formatting of the quote tag is particularly ironic in this context ). The fallout of this should involve prison sentences.

    But look again at the title of this thread. The solution to the fragility to US democracy isn't to tilt at the GOP to the exclusion of addressing the problems in the system itself. There are two takeaways from this. 1. the GOP in it's current form is a corrupt actor that is trying to subvert democracy and 2. your system has massive loopholes that a corrupt actor could use to subvert democracy. Fixing the first of those is imperative, I'm 100% with you there. But failure to fix the second simply means that you're doomed to repeat this.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Jan 5th, 2021 at 08:50 AM.
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  30. #110
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    Yes! That's exactly what I'm saying!

    Don't get me wrong, I absolutely get your outrage at the GOP's current actions. I share that outrage and I think those actions border on treason. (I'm only qualifying that with "bordering on" so that TG can have some fun fixing it for me - though his miss-formatting of the quote tag is particularly ironic in this context ). The fallout of this should involve prison sentences.

    But look again at the title of this thread. The solution to the fragility to US democracy isn't to tilt at the GOP to the exclusion of addressing the problems in the system itself. There are two takeaways from this. 1. the GOP in it's current form is a corrupt actor that is trying to subvert democracy and 2. your system has massive loopholes that a corrupt actor could use to subvert democracy. Fixing the first of those is imperative, I'm 100% with you there. But failure to fix the second simply means that you're doomed to repeat this.
    I agree...that was voiced in another way in a previous post about how if the republicans held the house they could change this election. I digressed a little arguing with others speculating the democrats would do the same. The election pointed out many shortcomings. When a political group decides to throw accepted norms out the window, like four years of Trump and this republican coup attempt, it really points out the needs for change.
    Please remember next time...elections matter!

  31. #111
    PowerPoster techgnome's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    I'm almost ashamed to admit that 3 of the 5 Representatives from my state are among the ones planning to object to accepting the Electorial College vote.... sigh. At least the one that represents my district is one of the ones with her head squarely on her shoulders and is planning on voting FOR it saying to do otherwise goes against the Constitution... Our fifth rep says he wants to see hard evidence first... *shrug*

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  32. #112
    Super Moderator dday9's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    I was recently pointed to another event where this has happened by a Republican friend of mine. Barbara Boxer and Stephanie Tubbs Jones objected to the certification of Bush's 2004 win in Ohio which forced a debate over the certification of Electoral College votes.

    My friend's point was that there were several high profile Democrats who were at the least complacent in the process. Spitting off the ones that I remember (just from name recognition): Jim Clyburn, John Lewis, and Maxine Waters. Though, I believe there were others.

    I wasn't even aware of the event (I was too young, I would've been 13), so I told him that I'd look into it. After digging around, what happened in 2005 looks almost the same as 2021 in that it is just political posturing, but there are 2 keys differences:
    1. John Kerry did not support the objection in 2005 whereas Trump is all onboard in 2021
    2. The amount of explicit support seems to be greater in 2021 than in 2005 (though this is more just speculation on my end)

  33. #113
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by dday9 View Post
    I was recently pointed to another event where this has happened by a Republican friend of mine. Barbara Boxer and Stephanie Tubbs Jones objected to the certification of Bush's 2004 win in Ohio which forced a debate over the certification of Electoral College votes.

    My friend's point was that there were several high profile Democrats who were at the least complacent in the process. Spitting off the ones that I remember (just from name recognition): Jim Clyburn, John Lewis, and Maxine Waters. Though, I believe there were others.

    I wasn't even aware of the event (I was too young, I would've been 13), so I told him that I'd look into it. After digging around, what happened in 2005 looks almost the same as 2021 in that it is just political posturing, but there are 2 keys differences:
    1. John Kerry did not support the objection in 2005 whereas Trump is all onboard in 2021
    2. The amount of explicit support seems to be greater in 2021 than in 2005 (though this is more just speculation on my end)
    Also it was never the intent of Boxer and Tubbs-Jones to overthrow the election like the republicans are. Their intent was to focus on what they perceived as voter suppression in Ohio. To compare that to what the republicans are doing is misleading to me. The republicans actually want to overturn a election that has been determined as free and fair for their own political purposes. Apples and oranges and just reaching to me.
    Please remember next time...elections matter!

  34. #114
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    I agree...
    I think we're pretty much all agreeing in this thread and, where there are differences, they're in the nuance rather than the substance. Watching this should really tell us that platitudes along the lines of "what harm can it do to humour him until January" can be really dangerous when you're referring to someone who has repeatedly shown a willingness to smash every accepted norm your system is built on. Hell, 4 years ago this was the whole theme of his campaign so it's not like he hasn't telegraphed this.

    it is just political posturing
    I think that's important to remember as we look at this. Outside of Trump himself and a small clique around him, I don't think anyone is genuinely seeking to overthrow the democratic process. It's posturing and pantomime. That doesn't make it OK though. This is the sort of chip, chip, chip at the basis of your system that will eventually bring the whole edifice crashing down. It's easy to excuse the little steps but it's those steps that cause the most damage over time.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill

    Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd

  35. #115
    Super Moderator dday9's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    Also it was never the intent of Boxer and Tubbs-Jones to overthrow the election like the republicans are. Their intent was to focus on what they perceived as voter suppression in Ohio. To compare that to what the republicans are doing is misleading to me. The republicans actually want to overturn a election that has been determined as free and fair for their own political purposes. Apples and oranges and just reaching to me.
    I disagree. I would wager a small fortune that their (unstated) intent was to politically posture just like the Republicans are doing now knowing that it won't go anywhere in the house. They are politicians.

  36. #116
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    I think that's important to remember as we look at this. Outside of Trump himself and a small clique around him, I don't think anyone is genuinely seeking to overthrow the democratic process. It's posturing and pantomime. That doesn't make it OK though. This is the sort of chip, chip, chip at the basis of your system that will eventually bring the whole thing crashing down. It's easy to excuse the little steps but it's those steps that cause the most damage over time.
    I think that is true and it was mentioned earlier in the context of there are seventy plus million Trump supporters out there. That would be quite a catch and Trump knows how to exert his influence. For some people it is important how you got there, no matter where "where" is. To others it is the result, not how you got there.
    Please remember next time...elections matter!

  37. #117
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by dday9 View Post
    I disagree. I would wager a small fortune that their (unstated) intent was to politically posture just like the Republicans are doing now knowing that it won't go anywhere in the house. They are politicians.
    Could be...I can't tell what her intent was, other then what was stated, from what I read. But as you say they are politicians. I did see she was the only Senator that voted for it in the end. There are eleven republicans and counting right now that are going to vote for it tomorrow.
    Please remember next time...elections matter!

  38. #118
    Super Moderator dday9's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    There are eleven republicans and counting right now that are going to vote for it tomorrow.
    (read point 2 in the list of differences in post 112)

  39. #119
    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    I am talking about stopping people from voting
    Good on ya. So was I. The Democratic party attempted to suppress the progressive vote in the last primaries and, in my opinion and the opinions of many others, succeeded in doing so. It's not the only dirty trick they used but it is one of them. Look, I think that it is safe to say that pretty much everyone in this thread agrees that Trump is scum, the Republican party is pretty terrible and those Republicans aiding and abetting Trump right now are traitors. That doesn't mean that you should ignore what the Democratic party have done or pretend that they aren't capable of worse. When I say "capable" I mean that they "absolutely would do something if they thought they would it would help them". Democrats and Republicans both know that greater turnout favours Democrats so they are trying to achieve and prevent that respectively. If the shoe was on the other foot though, don't think that there aren't plenty of Democrats who would lower their moral bar somewhat, even if not to the previously unthinkable levels that we're currently seeing from Republicans.

  40. #120
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by dday9 View Post
    (read point 2 in the list of differences in post 112)
    I thought it was important to point out that only one democratic Senator took that position and that was the only vote. When it comes to republicans there are 140 representatives and eleven Senators and counting. I think that says what the republicans are doing is far more egregious. Also John Kerry conceded, and I know you pointed that out. A big difference is Trump is driving the effort along with his sycophant. Once again apples and oranges to compare this to 2005 as far as the magnitude.
    Please remember next time...elections matter!

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