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Thread: The US fragile democracy Exposed

  1. #361

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    This does highlight a fundamental flaw in your system though. It should be possible to remove a sitting president within days because, no matter how bad Trump has been, history teaches us that it's possible for a leader to be far, far worse.
    There is ways to remove a sitting president but the votes aren't there.

    But he never said a word about all his lies and incitement since the election. It was forced and meaningless. He gets zero credit from me.
    The point isn't to give him credit, the point is it might save lives.


    As far as impeachment, I definitely wouldn't wait 100 days, they have been talking about half day on impeachment and half day on other business. meh Unless there is a chance of winning I don't see much worth in it. Everything that is bad about Trump has been said and proven many times. It makes no difference to his base. In fact they feed off it, gives them more reasons to be angry because everyone is lying about poor Donald.

    Maybe it's time to stop making Trump the squeaky wheel.

  2. #362
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    The point isn't to give him credit, the point is it might save lives.
    I had that out of context then.
    Please remember next time...elections matter!

  3. #363

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    I had that out of context then.
    No, you had a valid point. I was just to lazy to explain my position completely. The way his businesses are being affected, your not the only one who wont give him credit. lol

  4. #364
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    There is ways to remove a sitting president but the votes aren't there.
    I didn't think there was a timely way. The more I've learned over the last few days, you're right. Impeachment could be timely but it would require a pro-motion leader in the both houses as they effectively decide the timing between them (one decides when to pass it to the Senate, the other can further delay it once received if they choose). Of course, it still requires that 2/3 in the Senate which is absent at the moment.

    I definitely wouldn't wait 100 days
    I don't think I'd wait 100 but I would give it a week or two. I think there's a fairly high probability that more Repubs will cross the aisle after the Inauguration when Trumps hold over them is somewhat lifted. Hard to say but I do get the impression that there are still a significant number of Repubs who really hate him but are still too afraid to step out of line.

    And I had heard that apparently, once the articles were passed across, the Senate had to work on that to the exclusion of all else, effectively stopping government until the conviction was resolved one way or the other. I've since heard that they can apparently split their time and that's what they did with Clinton. I'm not sure on the truth of any of this stuff, though, as it's kinda flashed past on the news during other articles.


    Edit>Also, Republicans really need to stop playing the "an impeachment will be divisive". It's not the impeachment that's divisive. It's four years of extremist enabling rhetoric, followed by 3 months of concerted miss-information about the election being invalid culminating in an actual incitement to insurrection at the national Capitol that's divisive.

    "The impeachment might anger the extremists and move them to action" is the equivalent of an abusive partner saying "look at what you made me do".
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Jan 15th, 2021 at 03:35 AM.
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  5. #365
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    Also, Republicans really need to stop playing the "an impeachment will be divisive". It's not the impeachment that's divisive. It's four years of extremist enabling rhetoric, followed by 3 months of concerted miss-information about the election being invalid culminating in an actual incitement to insurrection at the national Capitol that's divisive.
    Indeed. I heard Lindsey Graham say that impeachment would rip the country apart even further, but I've never heard him actually admit that the country has been ripped apart in the first place. He's trying to suggest that Democrats are trying to do more damage without admitting that Republicans have done damage in the first place.

  6. #366
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Republicans really need to stop playing the "an impeachment will be divisive". It's not the impeachment that's divisive. It's four years of extremist enabling rhetoric, followed by 3 months of concerted miss-information about the election being invalid culminating in an actual incitement to insurrection at the national Capitol that's divisive.

    "The impeachment might anger the extremists and move them to action" is the equivalent of an abusive partner saying "look at what you made me do".
    Thank you! My sentiments exactly...
    Please remember next time...elections matter!

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    I just browsed through this thread and read a few posts. Am I right in assuming most posters here are not a huge fan of Trump? Personally I never cared for him and after his baseless claims of fraud concerning the elections and stirring up a riot escalating to the point of the The Capitol being invaded I say good riddance to Trump. I have no idea about what kind of a president Joe Biden is going to be, but anyone except Trump has to be an improvement. At least that's what I think. I have been trying to have a discussion on another forum where the majority appears to be pro-Trump. Anything against Trump is somehow dismissed over there.
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  8. #368
    Wall Poster TysonLPrice's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Am I right in assuming most posters here are not a huge fan of Trump?
    I think for the most part your will find that to be true. It might have something to do with education levels. I'm rabidity anti-Trump myself; but learning to let go.
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  9. #369
    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Swinkels View Post
    I just browsed through this thread and read a few posts. Am I right in assuming most posters here are not a huge fan of Trump? Personally I never cared for him and after his baseless claims of fraud concerning the elections and stirring up a riot escalating to the point of the The Capitol being invaded I say good riddance to Trump. I have no idea about what kind of a president Joe Biden is going to be, but anyone except Trump has to be an improvement. At least that's what I think. I have been trying to have a discussion on another forum where the majority appears to be pro-Trump. Anything against Trump is somehow dismissed over there.
    Trump is an epically bad person. He's not going to murder people with his own hands or the like, but he is clearly a malignant narcissist and they are pretty much the worst people you can possibly deal with. There's no way someone like that was ever going to be a good president. There are plenty of other people who would make bad presidents for any number of reasons but all malignant narcissists should be thrown down a deep well and left to suffer from each other what they otherwise inflict on others.

  10. #370
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    I think for the most part your will find that to be true. It might have something to do with education levels. I'm rabidity anti-Trump myself; but learning to let go.
    If it really has to do with education levels, your words I am curious about the education of pro Trump people. I am not that highly educated myself, high school only. I already had strong doubts about Trump, which his behaviour only turned into me wanting him out of The White House asap.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    Trump is an epically bad person. He's not going to murder people with his own hands or the like, but he is clearly a malignant narcissist and they are pretty much the worst people you can possibly deal with. There's no way someone like that was ever going to be a good president. There are plenty of other people who would make bad presidents for any number of reasons but all malignant narcissists should be thrown down a deep well and left to suffer from each other what they otherwise inflict on others.
    It's probably a figure of speech, but imho malignant narcissists should be encouraged to seek help for their issues, and/or kept in positions they can't do too much harm. The question is how do you determine someone is going to be trouble? I have suggested psychological screening for presidential candiates but that could cause its own problems.
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  11. #371
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    To be fair, I don't think it really has anything to do with education levels. It's stranger than that. He catered to the very basic of the lowest common denominator in a way that hadn't really been seen before. I read an article last year in the middle of the election cycle that talk about why it is that it seems so hard for Democrats to find ground to gain traction on while it seems so easy for Republicans to do so. Bottom line is that it has to do with messaging. Republicans have figured out how to use short messages, while Democrats have complicated messages that can't be distilled easily.
    Example: Gun control:
    * Democrats - implement wait times, background checks, do what we can to keep guns from the hands of convicted felons.
    * Republicans - Democrats want to take your guns.

    Example: Border Protection:
    * Democrats: Implement secure border protection while allowing for trade and travel.
    * Republicans: Democrats want to let every Tom, Dick, and Juan in to take your jobs, and murder your wife & kids.

    and so on...

    That's how they work - and I mean both parties - one realizes that most issues are nuances and complicated; the other one works by having a shrt, quick sound bite that they can use to appeal to the lowest common denominator, not caring that the issue is nuanced.

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  12. #372
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    If it really has to do with education levels, your words I am curious about the education of pro Trump people. I am not that highly educated myself, high school only. I already had strong doubts about Trump, which his behaviour only turned into me wanting him out of The White House asap.
    I was thinking along the lines of the demographics and it isn't a "hard fast rule". Most Trump supporters are from the more rural areas and most of the Biden supporters are from the larger city populations. I think Biden did better with college educated people and Trump not so much. But you don't need any education at all to see how unfit Trump was for office.
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  13. #373
    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by techgnome View Post
    Bottom line is that it has to do with messaging. Republicans have figured out how to use short messages, while Democrats have complicated messages that can't be distilled easily.
    Example: Gun control:
    * Democrats - implement wait times, background checks, do what we can to keep guns from the hands of convicted felons.
    * Republicans - Democrats want to take your guns.

    Example: Border Protection:
    * Democrats: Implement secure border protection while allowing for trade and travel.
    * Republicans: Democrats want to let every Tom, Dick, and Juan in to take your jobs, and murder your wife & kids.

    and so on...

    That's how they work - and I mean both parties - one realizes that most issues are nuances and complicated; the other one works by having a shrt, quick sound bite that they can use to appeal to the lowest common denominator, not caring that the issue is nuanced.
    Republicans appeal to the emotions of people who can't or won't make the effort to think. That's why religious nuts vote Republican. They are used to being (and are the type of people who want to be) told what to think by those in authority. Those with left-wing style thinking aren't immune to this sort of thing, of course, but far less so than those with right-wing style thinking. They at least want to think independently, even if they don't always succeed.

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Name:  Trump.jpg
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    Trump Inauguration


    Name:  Biden2.jpg
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    Preparations begin for Biden inauguration

  15. #375
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    It's almost like there was an attack where people were killed a few days ago.. Why in gods name would they take precautions.

    One could easily argue based on those pictures that the left is non-violent and the right did not fear an attack after Trump won, but the right are violent and are willing to kill if their candidate didn't win.

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Or that a tinpot military dictator who fears the people is being installed.

  17. #377
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    You could argue that, but wait 6 months and you'll see you were wrong. My hypothesis has already been proven somewhat correct as when Trump was found to have lost the election, they stormed the capitol and killed people.. don't remember the left doing that when Hillary lost.

  18. #378

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Yeah thats what happens when the POTUS tries to overthrow Democracy. It's sad.

    Let's do a comparison when there is a peaceful transfer of power,
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by wes4dbt View Post
    Yeah thats what happens when the POTUS tries to overthrow Democracy. It's sad.

    Let's do a comparison when there is a peaceful transfer of power,
    You have those pictures switched...PERIOD - Just ask Sean Spicer
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  20. #380

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by TysonLPrice View Post
    You have those pictures switched...PERIOD - Just ask Sean Spicer
    lol, it's all part of the deep state conspiracy.

  21. #381
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    Or that a tinpot military dictator who fears the people is being installed.
    I honestly don't think that you're stupid enough to believe what you're saying so I can only conclude that you're deliberately being a douche. I've said before that I don't think that Biden is a good presidential candidate but that you're so desperate to criticise him that you're now outright blaming him for the obvious results of Trump's despicable actions is truly pathetic. BDS is a real thing folks. I guess it's only a matter of time before you start referring to him as "the great pretender" for no apparent reason. That's your thing, isn't it?

  22. #382
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    To avoid embarrassment the Mall has been filled with headless, silent, pliable flags where people might have stood. Lined by luminary sound towers to play prerecorded cheers on cue:

    Name:  flags.jpg
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  23. #383
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
    To avoid embarrassment the Mall has been filled with headless, silent, pliable flags where people might have stood. Lined by luminary sound towers to play prerecorded cheers on cue:
    I guess he should have just followed his predecessors lead and assumed the best and then lied about it when it didn't happen. The previous administration has been bookended with such fictions. You seem eager to swallow the latter. Were you as eager to do the same for the former.

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    I honestly don't think that you're stupid enough to believe what you're saying so I can only conclude that you're deliberately being a douche.
    I believe he is being sarcastic. No one as intelligent as Dil would actually believe such nonsense.
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Doesn't really matter any more. What happens next is already "baked into the cake" by demographic realities. It's just a question of how things play out now.

    We had a chance to handle what is coming gracefully. That's gone now.

    As Bretton Woods II collapses, some parts of the world will feel a tighter pinch. China has eyes for Australia and New Zealand, and Biden is anxious to trade them in exchange for less Chinese involvement in Latin America.

  26. #386
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by Niya View Post
    I believe he is being sarcastic.
    Previous posts would suggest hyperbolic rather than sarcastic. It certainly seems to me that he thinks it's Biden's fault rather than Trump's.

  27. #387
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    we don't have checks and balances anymore and I bet you love that. the communist state has taken over and its lefty wimps like everyone on this thread that won't survive. Don't tell that biden and harris aren't communists because they most definitely are. It's funny how the left always turns a blind eye to serious evidence against the communist politicians. Like the Clinton emails which were proven to be true and bidens laptop. What makes you liberals hate Trump so damn much? Really? You people say "oh he's gonna lock us all up" or "he is against freedom" when in reality the dumb libtard politicians like biden are the ones who take away your rights. Communist take over starts with takeover of media. The media influences dumb people like the liberals on this forum that "orange man bad" when he has literally done nothing wrong. Its actually crazy how many lies there are about Trump. The media has done nothing but $H!T on him for 4 years and dumb heads like the liberals have fallen for it. There is no more democracy, it is falling into communism. You'll see, I'm a man of my word and when it does happen, think about how stupid you and every liberals decisions were (unless you're into that communist type crap). Also before you say that Trump said to attack the capitol, he never said that, he never even intended it, but what happened. The media pushed yet another narrative that "orange man bad" and you fell for it. Sad just sad.

  28. #388
    .NUT jmcilhinney's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by Roast247 View Post
    Don't tell that biden and harris aren't communists because they most definitely are.
    I find it hard to imagine that anyone is stupid enough to actually believe that, so I can only assume that you are intensely dishonest. It's funny how you come from the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" side of politics and yet every question I've seen you post on this site has shown basically zero effort and has just asked us to either do it or teach you from scratch. No surprise, really.
    Quote Originally Posted by Roast247 View Post
    Communist take over starts with takeover of media.
    Guess how fascist take-over starts. You've been witnessing it for four years.
    Quote Originally Posted by Roast247 View Post
    before you say that Trump said to attack the capitol, he never said that
    And Jesus never said he was god.
    Quote Originally Posted by Roast247 View Post
    he never even intended it
    Except the defense in court of at least one of his supporters at the riot claims the exact opposite. Several others have been quoted as saying so outside of court too. The fact is that anyone with any sense could see that that's what Trump was implying and, even ignoring that, that's what many of his supporters were going to infer. Anyone who couldn't predict violence at the Capitol is either totally moronic, willfully ignorant or both. I'm going with both in this case.

  29. #389
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by Roast247 View Post
    the communist state has taken over
    Do you even know what communism is? I don't think you do. I think that those who bleat about communism are actually talking about dictatorships, which is rather rich when Trump is the closest thing to a dictator America has had for a long time and possibly ever and his supporters were right behind that.

  30. #390
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcilhinney View Post
    I find it hard to imagine that anyone is stupid enough to actually believe that, so I can only assume that you are intensely dishonest. It's funny how you come from the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" side of politics and yet every question I've seen you post on this site has shown basically zero effort and has just asked us to either do it or teach you from scratch. No surprise, really.

    Guess how fascist take-over starts. You've been witnessing it for four years.

    And Jesus never said he was god.

    Except the defense in court of at least one of his supporters at the riot claims the exact opposite. Several others have been quoted as saying so outside of court too. The fact is that anyone with any sense could see that that's what Trump was implying and, even ignoring that, that's what many of his supporters were going to infer. Anyone who couldn't predict violence at the Capitol is either totally moronic, willfully ignorant or both. I'm going with both in this case.
    Removed by mod
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Jan 20th, 2021 at 06:01 AM.

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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Removed by mod
    This is way out of line. Seems like something a 10yr old would say.
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Jan 20th, 2021 at 06:01 AM.

  32. #392
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by Roast247 View Post
    removed by mod
    I hope your not going to be around here long. Maybe the moderators can head you off at the pass...
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Jan 20th, 2021 at 06:09 AM.
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  33. #393
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by Roast247 View Post
    Removed by mod
    Something went wrong in front of the keyboard?
    Last edited by FunkyDexter; Jan 20th, 2021 at 06:02 AM.

  34. #394
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    This is way out of line
    Yes. That is WAY out of line and I'm deleting it from the forum and issuing a temporary ban. I was within a hairs breadth of making permanent. Roast, if you EVER post something like that again it will be permanent with no warning.

    Can I remind people:
    1. to stay away from ad hominem attacks
    2. that disguising your profanity using special characters may bypass the automated filters but won't bypass the mods.



    I'll follow this up with a more nuanced response to the thread in a bit but I want to deal with this first
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  35. #395
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Right, my more nuanced response:-

    To Peter's post, yes, this forum definitely skews anti Trump. I don't particularly have a problem with that (I am anti Trump) but what I do have a problem with is that I know we have some reasonable and articulate pro Trump voices on this forum and they clearly feel so pushed out out of the discussion that they've simply disengaged and aren't taking part any more. And who can blame them? Realistically, if they do post good arguments in here, the responses will probably be sneering at best and insulting at worst. We need to do better that that.

    The same is, of course, true of right wing forums too. Try posting an anti Trump message on the Donald and see how long you last. If you don't get outright banned you will be called a paedophile and receive death threats.

    This is really damaging because it means that you won't find a forum (in the broad sense of the word) now that s hosting any actual debate and that means that none of us has any chance of learning from each other. We just sink further into our silos.

    As a mod in a left leaning forum I guess I have the privilege of being able to challenge the left leaning membership to be more accepting of those with right leaning views (which does not mean you should not challenge their arguments). To right leaning members, I guess I'd ask you to pay it forward. Carry this message into your own echo chambers and push people to accept those with left wing views (with the same caveats about being able to challenge their arguments in turn).

    Separating the man from the argument is important. Failure to do so demonises anyone who disagrees with you.
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyDexter View Post
    Separating the man from the argument is important.
    I agree but I will say that an ad hominem attack and an ad hominem fallacy are two different things. I'm not above calling people stupid if I think they're stupid, as evidenced above, but I generally will explain why I think they're stupid if I do so, as evidenced above. Anyone who claims that Joe Biden is a communist is either genuinely stupid, glaringly dishonest or willfully too far gone to warrant respect. Calling them stupid is accurate in the first case and deserved in the other cases anyway. I don't think that we should say "you're stupid so we shouldn't listen to anything you say". I think we should say "you're stupid because you say stupid things and we shouldn't listen to stupid things". I'm always willing to listen to a genuine point. Anything relating to communism or actual socialism in American politics is not a genuine point. There's a reason that Ben Shapiro, who loves to call Bernie Sanders a socialist, felt the need to make a video pointing out why Scandinavian countries are not socialist. If anyone thinks they are then it's because of the lies that people like him have told about what is and isn't socialism. Bernie Sanders isn't a socialist so to suggest that Joe Biden is a communist is simply mental. Why is it that right-wingers love to make Democrats seem way better than they actually are?

  37. #397
    Super Moderator FunkyDexter's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    as evidenced above
    I think we can safely call that one a special case. They went on to prove your point.

    None the less, I do think there's a difference between a stupid person and a person who makes a stupid argument. The latter is easy to spot but we bring our own bias when trying to identify the former. That's why we should generally avoid attacking the person until they've removed all doubt.

    Anything relating to communism or actual socialism in American politics is not a genuine point.
    I think it is. It's wrong but that doesn't prevent it being sincerely held and informed by sources that the presenter believes to be credible. When confronted with someone making that argument then we can either debunk the argument or discredit the man. I don't think the latter is any more effective in the moment but does push the man to disengage, precluding any further debate or resolution.
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  38. #398
    Angel of Code Niya's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by Roast247 View Post
    we don't have checks and balances anymore and I bet you love that. the communist state has taken over and its lefty wimps like everyone on this thread that won't survive. Don't tell that biden and harris aren't communists because they most definitely are. It's funny how the left always turns a blind eye to serious evidence against the communist politicians. Like the Clinton emails which were proven to be true and bidens laptop. What makes you liberals hate Trump so damn much? Really? You people say "oh he's gonna lock us all up" or "he is against freedom" when in reality the dumb libtard politicians like biden are the ones who take away your rights. Communist take over starts with takeover of media. The media influences dumb people like the liberals on this forum that "orange man bad" when he has literally done nothing wrong. Its actually crazy how many lies there are about Trump. The media has done nothing but $H!T on him for 4 years and dumb heads like the liberals have fallen for it. There is no more democracy, it is falling into communism. You'll see, I'm a man of my word and when it does happen, think about how stupid you and every liberals decisions were (unless you're into that communist type crap). Also before you say that Trump said to attack the capitol, he never said that, he never even intended it, but what happened. The media pushed yet another narrative that "orange man bad" and you fell for it. Sad just sad.
    Remember when I mentioned Stormfront and 4Chan? This post is exactly the kind of nonsense you find in those spaces and this is extremely tame. If you guys want to see how deep this insanity really goes, you should visit the far right side of the web but fair warning, it isn't for the faint of heart. And I guarantee you will lose faith in humanity so proceed with caution.
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  39. #399
    PowerPoster kfcSmitty's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Interesting.. Looks like "The Kraken" has withdrawn her lawsuit.. you know, the one with mountains of evidence that proved the election was fraudlent?

    Also, I'm kinda disappointed I didn't get to see the childish post that was removed.

  40. #400
    Superbly Moderated NeedSomeAnswers's Avatar
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    Re: The US fragile democracy Exposed

    Also, I'm kinda disappointed I didn't get to see the childish post that was removed.
    Don't be disappointed, without going into detail he just used some childish offensive anti-gay slurs against a member

    Yes. That is WAY out of line and I'm deleting it from the forum and issuing a temporary ban. I was within a hairs breadth of making permanent. Roast, if you EVER post something like that again it will be permanent with no warning.
    You're nicer than me FD I would have banned them permanently for that, but maybe your way is better.

    I know we have some reasonable and articulate pro Trump voices on this forum and they clearly feel so pushed out out of the discussion that they've simply disengaged and aren't taking part any more.
    Yes, it is a shame some don't post in these types of threads anymore but maybe with Trump gone from office some of the political threads will calm down a bit.

    The problem is Trump has been so divisive that it has led to a hardening of positions and rhetoric. With previous Presidents of both parties, there were obviously disagreements but nothing like with Trump. He is uniquely polarizing in my opinion.
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